Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

[WenZink]

Are you even reading what others are writing in response to your inanity?

 
If it's all inanity then why did the Sox feel compelled to trade one of the top two RH hitters of his era? (I'd add Pujols as the other).  In the midst of a pennant race?  Did they do it because they thought Jason Bay was a better hitter?  Of course not, unless you think Theo was a moron.  They moved Manny because he forced their hand.  That's not an emotional reaction to one AB vs Rivera.  After making almost $160 mil, he didn't want to be bound by the two years of team options and was looking for a longer, lucrative contract.  You can argue the specifics, all you want, but as even JMOH mentioned, Manny shot his way out of town, with his caveat that Manny wasn't unique to the process.  To me he was unique to my memory and some of his actions were painfully clear to me.  I've never seen anything like it, and I've followed the Sox for a long time.
 
As an aside, I don't agree with fans booing Damon's return in 2006 one iota, but I understand their emotional distaste for going back on his disavowal.  I can't believe that most won't accept my severe distaste for Ramirez.  I choose to compare OPS within the same year, while others make their case by comparing OPS to previous and following years.
 
 

....
 
Enough with this nonsense. You don't like him, that's fine really. As a longtime Trot Nixon hater, I can get that,
 
....

 
I hated the way Trot Nixon played, but not the man, himself.  I hated his diving and his "sitting-on-a-porta-potty" batting stance, but he was just a guy trying out there.  Not to mention his wife, Kathryn, seemed like a genuinely, charitable woman, and she's still with him so I assume he's a better husband than player.
 
With Manny I loved watching him hit, but his conduct as a teammate was offensive.

 

[Curt S Loew]

Are you even reading what others are writing in response to your inanity?

No.  He only reads the "valid" ones.  URI said it best.  This is 2003 all over again.  Split this out and merge it with that.  Ugh.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

Random thought, but at this point should this argument be broken out somewhere else as this doesn't exactly pertain to the Felger and Mazz show anymore.

I agree!  Should all these replies  be in their own thread? Seems to have strayed from the original topic but I will let the Lords of the Boards decide..Just saying....Love Manny and Carry On! I am sorry if I stepped on any toes so I apologize to JMOH and URI in advance.

 

[Darnell's Son]

I agree!  Should all these replies  be in their own thread? Seems to have strayed from the original topic but I will let the Lords of the Boards decide..Just saying....Love Manny and Carry On! I am sorry if I stepped on any toes so I apologize to JMOH and URI in advance.

It's a fair suggestion, don't apologize to those bums.

 

[DLew On Roids]

I included the 2006 quote because it existed - and by some strange coincidence was the exact same line that was used two years later by McCarver and others.
 
The Courant article you linked to mentions the team's skepticism about Manny's sore right knee. That's it. No word about his left knee or any confusion between the two. Why was the MRI done on both knees? The article doesn't say at all.
 
From all the stuff I read, and the timeline of the various articles, I think the whole thing was most likely a myth that got repeated enough to become "truth". Other readers may come to different conclusions.

 
Maybe we should call the Courant staff writer who penned that article--it says his name is Jeff Goldberg--and see how he remembers it.

 

[j-man]

Manny was 1 of the best hitters   of all time period   he had a HOF Career but because the baseball writers think he used he will not get in   what i hate about felger and mazz  is  they whine and moan about  insingant things  
 
 
like 
 
1 declaring the  boston red sox  dead at 20-29  in a very poor AL East    
 2 Begging for Kevin Love when if a trade was made would only move u up to maybe 4th / 5th place in the east at best  and would cost u 2 ones and your good PF that  can play Def  
3 getting on  bill belichick   over every little thing   I think that seams from fegler bitterness when covered the pats in the mid 2000's  
4 and never seeming happy that a boston team does well    

 

[BlackJack]

 
BH has the right of it though. Suffice it to say BH's knowledge of that situation is quite solid.

Serious question - is BH some sort of insider? I have been a fan for a long time and my recollection of these incidents more closely matches what JoS has put on his blog. It has been some time however and I certainly don't have any inside knowledge, just what I've read in the papers, heard on the radio and seen on TV.

 

[BoSoxLady]

Serious question - is BH some sort of insider? I have been a fan for a long time and my recollection of these incidents more closely matches what JoS has put on his blog. It has been some time however and I certainly don't have any inside knowledge, just what I've read in the papers, heard on the radio and seen on TV.

BH a/k/a Jeff Goldberg, was the Red Sox beat writer for the Hartford Courant. In other words, he has direct knowledge of the Manny situation because he was actually in clubhouse.

 

[Buffalo Head]

I also have many leather-bound books and my house smells of rich mahagony.

 

[tomdeplonty]

So when I replied to BH with that Courant link, it was an article that BH himself wrote???!!!
 
I swear I had no idea. Wow.

 

[URI]

So when I replied to BH with that Courant link, it was an article that BH himself wrote???!!!
 
I swear I had no idea. Wow.

 
That's correct, yes.

 

[Buffalo Head]

But yes, I covered the team for Hartford from 2007-08 and I was there in Seattle on the Wednesday morning when the final Manny drama began. He asked out of the lineup that Wednesday morning claiming a sore knee and Francona was, to put it mildly, highly suspicious, the speculation being that Manny decided he didn't want to face King Felix, so he asked out at the last minute and used the knee as an excuse. My most vivid memory of that Wednesday pregame session was Francona going way out of his way to explain to us why he found Manny's injury not believable. He NEVER did that, but this day he wanted us to know that the Manny Red Flag was up.

Then he bagged on the Friday game around 4:30 and the team basically called his bluff, sent him for MRIs on both knees, told us they came back clean and told Manny if he didn't play Saturday, he was going to be suspended. He played Saturday.

So like I said earlier, I can't speak to 2006, but that week in 2008, the team absolutely believed he was faking.

 

[tomdeplonty]

That's correct, yes.

 
Mind blown.

 

[Dogman]

Why is your mind blown?  He isn't a very good writer and, honestly, the Courant sucks which probably explains why they employed him but that is a different conversation.
 
More seriously,  you may well be surprised to learn some of the other identities on this site.  For instance, URI is Ron Borges. 

 

[Buffalo Head]

Sadly, Dogman is right. URI is Ron Borges.

 

[jimv]

Will be hard for the boys to come up with some negative story lines after the Red Sox performance this weekend. Possibilities -
 
- Will Stephen Drew ruin clubhouse chemistry?
- All the youngsters look great, why can't they bring them up sooner?
- Why is Papi complaining about getting thrown at? Just take your base!

 

[Darnell's Son]

Why is your mind blown?  He isn't a very good writer and, honestly, the Courant sucks which probably explains why they employed him but that is a different conversation.
 
More seriously,  you may well be surprised to learn some of the other identities on this site.  For instance, URI is Ron Borges. 

And he doesn't speak spanish.

 

[Darnell's Son]

Will be hard for the boys to come up with some negative story lines after the Red Sox performance this weekend. Possibilities -
 
- Will Stephen Drew ruin clubhouse chemistry?
- All the youngsters look great, why can't they bring them up sooner?
- Why is Papi complaining about getting thrown at? Just take your base!

Ding ding ding! Especially when he goes 0-4 with a K tomorrow.

 

[Laser Show]

Will be hard for the boys to come up with some negative story lines after the Red Sox performance this weekend. Possibilities -
 
- Will Stephen Drew ruin clubhouse chemistry?
- All the youngsters look great, why can't they bring them up sooner?
- Why is Papi complaining about getting thrown at? Just take your base!

Just wait for them to start complaining about the lack of Brock Holt playing time once Nap is healthy.

 

[jimv]

Just wait for them to start complaining about the lack of Brock Holt playing time once Nap is healthy.

Actually forgot one -
 
- 8 game winning streak, but who have they beaten? Braves suck! Tampa sucks! Beat a real team!

 

[kajana141]

Will be hard for the boys to come up with some negative story lines after the Red Sox performance this weekend. Possibilities -
 
- Will Stephen Drew ruin clubhouse chemistry?
- All the youngsters look great, why can't they bring them up sooner?
- Why is Papi complaining about getting thrown at? Just take your base!

 
You forget one
Mazz: "I'm not saying a 7 game winning streak is meaningless but Mike, they came against a struggling Atlanta team and the worst team in the AL east, a division which SUCKS, so the winning streak is not impressive at all."

 

[Dead Balls]

Its like Mazz hates baseball and especially the Red Sox.  I never understood why people who are Sox fans tune into them.  It may be an act, or lazy, or a combination of both... but Mazz is unlistenable at this point.  I am so sick of the negativity.

 

[ForKeeps]

 
 a struggling Atlanta team

 
oh the tautology

 

[Reverend]

I've got a question for people who listen to this show. Specifically, why do you listen to it? I'm genuinely curious. 
 
I ask because I don't generally listen to talk radio but stopped when I heard them talking about something yesterday about Ellsbury and it piqued my interest because they were making shit up. Like, I don't mean throwing out thought ideas of hypotheses or brain storming, but actually making up shit that is empirical and you can look it up.
 
Specifically, they were talking about Ellsbury's lack of power and how that's surprised people given the short right porch in NYC. But then one of them, instead of wondering if maybe Ellsbury had opposite field power he hadn't been given credit for, asserted that he remembered some of Ellsbury's HRs going left over the wall. And he asked the other guy--I don't know who's who--something like, "You remember that, don't you?" and the other guy agreed that he did.
 
You can look this up in his spray charts at Texas Leaguers. It's simply not true. So I mean, obviously the answer to the question of how they manage to stay on the air has to be that people listen to them, but... why? I get the whole wallowing in the drama and the self-loathing shtick that attracts some people, but you can still do that listening to people with a factual basis, can't you?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I've got a question for people who listen to this show. Specifically, why do you listen to it? I'm genuinely curious.
 

 
I listen to this show for a couple of reasons: I like Michael Felger. He might be a dink, but he knows that he's a dink and I think that he also doesn't believe half of the shit that he says. It's almost as if he's winking when he gives his "HOT SPORTZ TAKE!" I don't mind Tony Mazz nearly as much as some people do here, I don't think that he's quite as dumb as people seem to think, but he's lazy and I can kind of relate to that. Another reason (and this is where my relating to Mazz comes in) is that my radio is on TSH when I leave work and I'll listen to these two guys through their 15-minute, commercial-free segment before I switch it to Dale and Holley.
 
To be honest, I like Dale and Holley a bit more than Felger and Mazz. I think that their takes are more measured, they don't create SPORTROVERSIES out the ether and they seem like they enjoy each others' company (F&M seem to have a genuine camaraderie that I like too) but Dennis and Callahan are on in the morning and fuck those guys with a shovel. A lot of times if D&H are on a roll, I'll stay with them for 15-20 minutes and then switch back over to F&M for the remainder of my drive home.
 
But it depends.
 
I'm not sure if you ever watched wrestling in the late 90s when the WWE and WCW had their Monday Night War, but it was kind of the same thing. If WCW had good matches, I'd watch that until an ad, then I'd flip over to the WWE and do the same. At 10:55, whoever had my attention, I would ride out the night. Sports radio is a lot like wrestling.

 

[Reverend]

That's a pretty good comparison.
 
I also flipped over to Dale and Holley and the difference was striking. Whereas F&M were fabricating facts that are refuted by empirical data, Holley dropped an extensive explanation of the problem with discussions of the OF situation that I posted on the Main Board because it was so tight. Of course, then I guess it's like one of those threads that dies because there's nothing to talk about, huh?

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Did I miss anything? Has Brady asked to renegotiate his contract? They just spent the first segment discussing of Brady is a fraud for wanted kaepernick money and ripping up his old contract, despite....basking in the glow of taking less money only 18 months ago...and now he wants to double his money?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Of course, then I guess it's like one of those threads that dies because there's nothing to talk about, huh?
 

 
Yeah. That's the nature of the beast, right? Keep hammering away at topics that don't really have an answer: Is Tom Brady still elite? Is Manny Ramirez Hitler multiplied by AIDS jammed into a uniform that's too baggy or is Manny Stalin to the Pol Pot Power multiplied by Kenny G. in baggy pants? Kevin Garnett isn't tough or he's fake tough or he's too tough for his own good, what do you think? The Bruins peaked at the wrong time and this is the worst thing ever, right? Or I haven't seen too much of XXXX athlete's game (this week Carmelo Anthony) but he's a dog and he sucks and nothing you say can sway my opinion -- facts are for nerds and eye-ball tests are for green team pink hats.
 
If you're on the radio you need these Mobius-Strip arguments to fill up four hours and get morons to call.

 

[RedOctober3829]

The only thing I saw was a Borges article today basically saying that Brady won't play out his deal because of the CK deal. Nothing from Brady's camp has said anything of the sort. So, it's your basic FM making shit up to encite crap. It just fuels the fire for the idiots and haters to spew shit out of their mouths. Again bashing nutrition. Brady can ask for as much money as he wants if he continues to put up the numbers.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Brady "basking in the glory" of his restructure/extension? That's rich. He still ended up getting MORE money out of the deal in the signing bonus and guaranteed money fronts.

He's playing the Peter King tape that explained why he lowered his cap number which refutes Felger's point then he continues his rip job.

 

[dcmissle]

Doubly rich -- Borges and Felger, former beat writers both, ran their mouths immediately after Kap's deal. Rookie mistake. The details reveal that it's a team friendly, incentive laden. pay-as-you-go deal, with the guarantees kicking only annually.

But that is ok. Several years ago before Brady signed an extension, Felger said the Pats were playing hardball and that "this is going to end badly."

It's amusing to keep track of this stuff.

 

[Reverend]

 
Yeah. That's the nature of the beast, right? Keep hammering away at topics that don't really have an answer: Is Tom Brady still elite? Is Manny Ramirez Hitler multiplied by AIDS jammed into a uniform that's too baggy or is Manny Stalin to the Pol Pot Power multiplied by Kenny G. in baggy pants? Kevin Garnett isn't tough or he's fake tough or he's too tough for his own good, what do you think? The Bruins peaked at the wrong time and this is the worst thing ever, right? Or I haven't seen too much of XXXX athlete's game (this week Carmelo Anthony) but he's a dog and he sucks and nothing you say can sway my opinion -- facts are for nerds and eye-ball tests are for green team pink hats.
 
If you're on the radio you need these Mobius-Strip arguments to fill up four hours and get morons to call.

 
This makes sense to me. I was just surprised to hear something so empirically verifiable fabricated out of nowhere and then agreed to. It takes like 10 seconds to look it up, but I don't imagine on of their callers did.
 
I mean, I'd like to believe that the Yankee's FO is stupid enough to not realize the lefty they were paying for had only opposite field power, but I don't.

 

[Toe Nash]

 
Yeah. That's the nature of the beast, right? Keep hammering away at topics that don't really have an answer: Is Tom Brady still elite? Is Manny Ramirez Hitler multiplied by AIDS jammed into a uniform that's too baggy or is Manny Stalin to the Pol Pot Power multiplied by Kenny G. in baggy pants? Kevin Garnett isn't tough or he's fake tough or he's too tough for his own good, what do you think? The Bruins peaked at the wrong time and this is the worst thing ever, right? Or I haven't seen too much of XXXX athlete's game (this week Carmelo Anthony) but he's a dog and he sucks and nothing you say can sway my opinion -- facts are for nerds and eye-ball tests are for green team pink hats.
 
If you're on the radio you need these Mobius-Strip arguments to fill up four hours and get morons to call.

What if you had some interesting discussion about real things backed up with facts, and if you covered everything, had some thought exercises like "OK, this week we're going through our ten best Forgotten Red Sox" or "Let's run down our favorite Celtics memories" or whatever that are just timewasters but aren't stupid and redundant and you could have some fun with even though there aren't any right answers? And then you would get smart people to call in and people might learn something? I would listen to that.
 
I mean, that's better right, it just takes more effort. Why do that when you can play to the lowest denominator and not have to do any research or preparation.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

What if you had some interesting discussion about real things backed up with facts, and if you covered everything, had some thought exercises like "OK, this week we're going through our ten best Forgotten Red Sox" or "Let's run down our favorite Celtics memories" or whatever that are just timewasters but aren't stupid and redundant and you could have some fun with even though there aren't any right answers? And then you would get smart people to call in and people might learn something? I would listen to that.
 
I mean, that's better right, it just takes more effort. Why do that when you can play to the lowest denominator and not have to do any research or preparation.

Then after two weeks, what do you do?

 

[southshoresoxfan]

20 hours of sports talk per week focusing on one market is really tough. Id run out of ideas too

 

[j-man]

if they were a Little more positive they would get bigger guests   and not so trollish but i like bteele    

 

[Byrdbrain]

Trollish is their thing and guests really aren't. I wish they would play it straighter, I think Fleger(was initially a typo then I thought I'd keep it) and Beetle could pull it off but no way Mazz could.
That said why would they? They are killing the ratings so someone likes it.

 

[FelixMantilla]

They are killing the ratings so someone likes it.

 
Just like The Big Show several years ago. 

 

[steveluck7]

 
Just like The Big Show several years ago. 

I agree with that to an extent. The difference (major, IMO) s that when he's wrong, Felger will take the heat from the callers and admit he was wrong.  Glenn could never seem to do that. Felger also wears his biases on his sleeve, you know where he stands.

 

[Red Right Ankle]

Also The Big Show had effectively no competition whereas F&M do. TBS's ratings were a mirage; F&M's, sadly, are not.

 

[allstonite]

First time listening in a few months and I get treated to Tony Mazz on pitcher wins and pitching to the score. Back to podcasts

 

[NortheasternPJ]

God Mike from Attleboro is awful. Can't they just gas him at this point?
 
I know he's Felger's boy from when he was on another station, but man does he suck. 

 

[Buffalo Head]

I know he's Felger's boy
 

You answered your own question

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

They just finished up a very good segment with jonathan Kraft about the revolution. For a guy that doesn't watch a lot of soccer, Felger clearly had prepared for the interview. Some pretty good, hard questions. I wish they would do more stuff like this.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

They just finished up a very good segment with jonathan Kraft about the revolution. For a guy that doesn't watch a lot of soccer, Felger clearly had prepared for the interview. Some pretty good, hard questions. I wish they would do more stuff like this.

When they try the show is good. Its just few and frustraingly far in between that they do

 

[Harry Hooper]

Someone tell Felger that the capacity of a World Cup stadium would be way beyond what the Revolution will want in a dedicated venue.

 

[Vandalman]

Felger: So Tony, what are your thoughts on Tony Gwynn?
 
Mazz: Overrated. He was one of those hit-only guys like Rod Carew and, for the most part, Wade Boggs...
 
<<click>>

 

[Byrdbrain]

Felger: So Tony, what are your thoughts on Tony Gwynn?
 
Mazz: Overrated. He was one of those hit-only guys like Rod Carew and, for the most part, Wade Boggs...
 
<<click>>

Is that real? If so wtf,  a "hit only guy". Yeah those guys who hit better than just about anyone else are so overrated. Granted Gwynns OBP was lower than you would like but he was still one of the best hitters of his time.
 
Edit:As Timlinin8th stated below his OBP was very good I just meant a touch lower than you would like for a Hall of Fame hitter with his BA and limited power. For example Boggs had him by 30 points in OBP with a BA 10 points lower. I was being nitpicky, Gwynn was great and Mazz is an idiot.

 

[timlinin8th]

Is that real? If so wtf,  a "hit only guy". Yeah those guys who hit better than just about anyone else are so overrated. Granted Gwynns OBP was lower than you would like but he was still one of the best hitters of his time.

Gwynn had a .388 career OBP. That is 8 pts higher than David Ortiz. /nitpick

 

[judyb]

Does Mazz just say whatever he can think of that he knows everyone else won't say or does he actually believe what he's saying?