Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

[JayMags71]

Honest question: do you enjoy watching sports? Every team has at least one player who has committed one of the sins you list for Manny.

Moreover, Manny's subsequent actions detract from the joy of the 2004 playoffs? To such an extent that you couldn't watch a ceremony celebrating their accomplishment? It must be difficult watching games from such a high horse.

 

[BoSoxFink]

 
Why should I stop it?  Is your head about to explode because I don't worship at the altar of Manny Ramirez?  To criticize him is some sort of blasphemy in your eyes?
 
As I said earlier, I get it.  I understand the "requirements" of being a "true fan."  I just don't agree with them.

No one is worshipping Manny Ramirez.  We are just able to separate what he did off the field from what he did on the field.  When Manny played, there was not a better hitter in baseball, and he was one of the biggest reasons the Sox won two world series.  I watch sports for a retreat from my real world problems or stresses that are happening at the time.  I watch to enjoy the great athletes and to root my team on to win, I don't give a damn what they do off the field, I am not going to be associating with them in real life, so what difference does that make to me.

 

[SidelineCameras]

 
Exactly.
 
Tangentially, Bruce Allen over at BSMW has an excellent front page column today on this topic. He's focusing on a Minihane article, but that article essentially parrot's CHB's and Mazz' articles, and Bruce rebuts some of the assertions these guys have made about the ceremony Wed night. Well worth a read.

 
The only thing that would improve this article would be hearing Fred Toucher read it on his show, screaming. 

 

[joyofsox]

Manny never forgot which knee was injured. That was shit made up by the media, or was said as a joke, with Tim McCarver leading the pack.
 
McCarver first cracked the knee gag in 2006. No one in the Boston media picked up on it and used it themselves until McCarver resurrected it in 2008.
 
I did some research in 2008 and decided the story was a myth:
http://joyofsox.blogspot.ca/2008/10/origins-of-manny-forgot-which-knee-hurt.html

 

[WenZink]

No one is worshipping Manny Ramirez.  We are just able to separate what he did off the field from what he did on the field.  When Manny played, there was not a better hitter in baseball, and he was one of the biggest reasons the Sox won two world series.  I watch sports for a retreat from my real world problems or stresses that are happening at the time.  I watch to enjoy the great athletes and to root my team on to win, I don't give a damn what they do off the field, I am not going to be associating with them in real life, so what difference does that make to me.

 
And I'm not judging Manny by his personal life or shitty behavior as a teammate. That at bat vs Rivera was a dive, according to my eyes.  And there were days when there was nothing to see in 2008 because Manny wasn't on the field with an "alleged" left or right knee injury.  If you want to dispute those items go ahead, but don't say you're only care about what happened on the field and then conveniently omit certain things.  I too want too enjoy great athletes who don't malinger or throw away at bats in order to get out of town.
 

Manny never forgot which knee was injured. That was shit made up by the media, or was said as a joke, with Tim McCarver leading the pack.
 
McCarver first cracked the knee gag in 2006. No one in the Boston media picked up on it and used it themselves until McCarver resurrected it in 2008.
 
I did some research in 2008 and decided the story was a myth:
http://joyofsox.blogspot.ca/2008/10/origins-of-manny-forgot-which-knee-hurt.html

 
Thanks for the research, but I also believe the knee injury, itself, was a myth.  After going to LA, I believe Manny played in all 53 games and raised his OPS from .926 to 1.031 in a 1/3rd of a season.  Truly a "Profiles In Courage" moment if that right (or left) knee was kicking up.

 

[The Napkin]

 
And I'm not judging Manny by his personal life or shitty behavior as a teammate. That at bat vs Rivera was a dive, according to my eyes.  And there were days when there was nothing to see in 2008 because Manny wasn't on the field with an "alleged" left or right knee injury.  If you want to dispute those items go ahead, but don't say you're only care about what happened on the field and then conveniently omit certain things.  I too want too enjoy great athletes who don't malinger or throw away at bats in order to get out of town.

 
 
He played 153 games in 2008 - 100 for the Sox and 53 for the Dodgers.
You know who played more than 153 games for the Sox that year? Here's the list:
Dustin Pedroia (157)

 

[BoSoxFink]

 
And I'm not judging Manny by his personal life or shitty behavior as a teammate. That at bat vs Rivera was a dive, according to my eyes.  And there were days when there was nothing to see in 2008 because Manny wasn't on the field with an "alleged" left or right knee injury.  If you want to dispute those items go ahead, but don't say you're only care about what happened on the field and then conveniently omit certain things.  I too want too enjoy great athletes who don't malinger or throw away at bats in order to get out of town.

Fine, you want to say he threw away at bats and you gave me 2008 as an example for the most part.  I will give you that, but what about the other 7 years he was here?  Yes there may have been a couple of times where he asked out of the lineup or claimed something was up that really wasn't in those years, but for the majority of those seasons he still delivered and delivered in big ways. 
 
I think the difference here is that I am willing to put up with a little pre-madonna-ism or whatever you want to call it, if the athlete's play is going to be so dominant and help the team so greatly.  If you were to tell me that Manny was not a stud and something more along the lines of a middle of the road guy and did the same antics, then I would want him out of town, he's not helping the team period in that instance.  If a player is going to be so utterly dominant though, I am willing to put up with those shenanigans as a fan.  I mean we would not have those 2 world series titles without Manny, and to me that is worth it all by itself.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Why should I stop it?  Is your head about to explode because I don't worship at the altar of Manny Ramirez?  To criticize him is some sort of blasphemy in your eyes?
 
As I said earlier, I get it.  I understand the "requirements" of being a "true fan."  I just don't agree with them.
 

 
I'm saying stop it because you're wrong about your "proof" (and about my head exploding -- that's a kind of an issue with me right now mostly because I can't fully comprehend the truth you are LAYING down. No one has ever said the things you say in the manner you say it. Too late -- MIND BLOWN!) But the real reason is that you're "not understanding" the conversation that more than a handful of people have spent two pages trying to explain to you. 

 

[WenZink]

 
 
He played 153 games in 2008 - 100 for the Sox and 53 for the Dodgers.
You know who played more than 153 games for the Sox that year? Here's the list:
Dustin Pedroia (157)

 
Yeah, I was there.  Manny played 95 games and 5 PH appearances for a total of 100 for the Red Sox in 109 games.  Once he got to LA he played in the field for all 53 of their games.  And his OPS was .300 higher.

 

[The Napkin]

 
Yeah, I was there.  Manny played 95 games and 5 PH appearances for a total of 100 for the Red Sox in 109 games.  Once he got to LA he played in the field for all 53 of their games.  And his OPS was .300 higher.

You misspelled 3. You don't get to make up facts.

 

[gammoseditor]

 
Two things here:
 
1. The Tampa Bay Rays aren't my team. So, no I'm not invested in what their relief pitcher does. But if you want to play this game, no, if Manny Ramirez forcefully put his penis in another woman's vagina without her consent, I wouldn't be down with that. Happy?
2. Seriously. You're equating what Manny did with raping a woman? Really?
 
I understand that people don't agree with my statement, I just happen to think it's dumb. Whether Manny apologized or not is immaterial to me because I am under no pretense that because you can regularly hit a ball 400 feet that means you need to be a good person. Manny might be a dick, I don't know because I don't hang out with him (and neither do you) nor do I care because most athletes seem to be dicks IRL. If I didn't root for ballplayers because they do, say, think things different from me, I wouldn't be a sports fan. Because I'm an adult, I've learned to compartmentalize.
 
 
Right. Because Manny Ramirez is the first athlete to shoot his way out of town. No one, certainly not St. Wayne Gretzky, ever has done that before in the history of professional athletics. And the guy that they received in return for Manny, Jay Ray Bay, had a pretty decent two months 293/370/527 with nine home runs. The Red Sox ran into a very good Tampa Bay team, there was no shame in losing to them.
 
 
That's a stupid, silly reason for not watching a really cool event. I'm glad that you showed Manny. BTW, when you were sitting next to your protest buddies Cafardo, Shaughnessy and Callahan, which one farts the most. I bet it's Cafardo (Ca-FART-o!) but I bet Callahan rips some good ones. I'm right, aren't I?
 
And Jesus Montero plays in Seattle, though I believe he's on the DL. Did him and Manny have a fight?

 
First, I didn't compare Manny to a rapist.  I asked where you drew the line. The blanket statement that you don't care what these guys do off the field seemed odd to me.  You also left no room for anyone to disagree with you. 
 
Second, faking an injury and asking to be traded are two diferent things. 
 
Third, no one argued that they know athletes or think they all need to be good people.  But when we have evidence that they are bad people it changes my opinion of them.  I don't understand the argument that, and I'm paraphrasing, as an adult I've learned to ignore when athletes are pricks and/or criminals and just appreciate what they do on the field.

 

[joe dokes]

 
Yeah, I was there.  Manny played 95 games and 5 PH appearances for a total of 100 for the Red Sox in 109 games.  Once he got to LA he played in the field for all 53 of their games.  And his OPS was .300 higher.

 
I think he only pinch hit 3 times for the Sox in 2008. And given that Francona didn't play *anyone* every day, at least some of those off days had nothing to do with whatever it is bothers you. But in the end it doesn't matter.  I guess 53 years on Earth has so dulled by moral compass that I am unable tio summon up enough outrage over the messy end to ignore the rest and enjoy the party.

 

[The Napkin]

 
I think he only pinch hit 3 times for the Sox in 2008. And given that Francona didn't play *anyone* every day, at least some of those off days had nothing to do with whatever it is bothers you.

 
Exactly. Like I said, he was on a pace to play more than everyone but Pedroia. Which means (a) he/the whole team quit or (2) Tito managed his roster. I wonder which one someone with an agenda would pick?

 

[Blacken]

And I'm not judging Manny by his personal life or shitty behavior as a teammate. That at bat vs Rivera was a dive, according to my eyes.

Who membered this shitheel?

 

[timlinin8th]

But when we have evidence that they are bad people it changes my opinion of them.

I'm going to preface this by saying that I don't condone Manny hitting his wife, and as a fan of Manny's since he signed here, when I heard about that happening definitely had a "nice job, idiot" moment.

However, is it possible that sometimes a guy can make a mistake, own up to that mistake, and make up for it? The woman this incident HAPPENED TO has clearly moved past it since she never divorced him and was seen with him at this event the other day, but yet on here we have the keepers of the moral high ground (I'm not directing this to the quoted poster, just saying in general) who just can not and will not let it go? Talk about holding grudges.

If Manny was a habitual wifebeater, then I would be less likely to forgive him. But when the 'evidence' is one-off, definite errors in judgment the only thing that evidence proves to me is that these are humans with human failings just like everyone else.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

 
Exactly. Like I said, he was on a pace to play more than everyone but Pedroia. Which means (a) he/the whole team quit or (2) Tito managed his roster. I wonder which one someone with an agenda would pick?

 I happen to agree with JMOH on this one but I am curious where he draws the line. If the 2011 Pats ever are honored at the Razor and Aaron Hernandez gives a video statement from jail, will you be standing up giving him an ovation. I would not, but I'm curious where the line is drawn. I want to state that I am in no way comparing Manny's "crimes" to Aaron's although Manny was once accused of beating his wife.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

First, I didn't compare Manny to a rapist.  I asked where you drew the line. The blanket statement that you don't care what these guys do off the field seemed odd to me.  You also left no room for anyone to disagree with you. 
 

 
You insinuated very heavily. I was just playing your game.
 

Second, faking an injury and asking to be traded are two diferent things. 
 

 
Yes and no.
 

 
Third, no one argued that they know athletes or think they all need to be good people.  But when we have evidence that they are bad people it changes my opinion of them.  I don't understand the argument that, and I'm paraphrasing, as an adult I've learned to ignore when athletes are pricks and/or criminals and just appreciate what they do on the field.
 

 
My larger point is this: Manny may have been a jerk six years ago but he seems to have turn the corner, or at least he says he has. He's apologized to the McCormack (who has accepted his apology), he apologized to Boston as a whole and the one guy who attempted to kick his ass out of Boston, at least three times, has hired him to work as a minor league coach, mentoring the potential young stars of his new organization. Two major players in the Manny-as-an-asshole mix, who have much bigger stakes than you or WenZink, accepted his apologies. Why are you still hung up on hating a man you don't know, who has brought joy to your life through the things he did on the field?
 
The argument that you don't understand (actually, you do understand this--or you should, it's pretty simple) is that off the field, athletes are probably not "nice" people. The same with politicians, actors, other less famous people that you may not know. But the last four words in that sentence are key, "you may not know". Manny seems to be pretty beloved by his teammates: Ortiz, Pedro, Millar, some of the guys in Cleveland and they know Manny better than you or I will. A lot of the Manny is an asshole thing is a media meme that keeps getting repeated over and over and over again until it's "truth". Just the other day, Bertran joked about Manny showing up on time to the celebration. There's a lot of things that you can say about Manny, but from everything that I've read, the dude has an unbelievable work ethic -- forget being one of the best right handed hitters ever, the guy wouldn't have made the majors if he was a complete lazy ass.
 
And that feeds into my overall point, how do we (you or WZ) KNOW that Manny is an asshole? We hear everything second and third-hand through the media. The same media that is chastising the Red Sox fandom for being "fanboys" for celebrating the 2004 World Series. The same media that circles the wagons so that no-talent, lazy asses like Nick Cafardo can write the same bullshit over and over and over again while collect six-figure+ paychecks. Forgive me if I don't take every word of the Boston media as gospel when it comes to athletes, especially minority athletes who won't give them the time.
 
Even if the Boston media was right and Manny Ramirez was the world's biggest asshole off-the-field, what the hell do I care if he's raking on the field? Please tell me because honestly, what am I supposed to give two shits about. Here's a hypothetical, two years ago people in New England were cheering for Aaron Hernandez but booing John Lackey. Last time I checked, Lackey didn't murder three people. BUT how are we supposed to know who the "good guys" are who the "bad guys" are? The answer is we don't. Ever. We don't really know what goes on an athlete's life any more than you know what really goes on in your neighbor's house. Unlike your neighbor, these guys play for teams we root for, so how do we make the choice? I don't, because I don't know for sure. And I'm not sure how you do. 

 

[The Napkin]

 I happen to agree with JMOH on this one but I am curious where he draws the line. If the 2011 Pats ever are honored at the Razor and Aaron Hernandez gives a video statement from jail, will you be standing up giving him an ovation. I would not, but I'm curious where the line is drawn. I want to state that I am in no way comparing Manny's "crimes" to Aaron's although Manny was once accused of beating his wife.

I'd probably cheer that they were being associated with a murderer because they suck and I hate them.

 

[joe dokes]

 I happen to agree with JMOH on this one but I am curious where he draws the line. If the 2011 Pats ever are honored at the Razor and Aaron Hernandez gives a video statement from jail, will you be standing up giving him an ovation. I would not, but I'm curious where the line is drawn. I want to state that I am in no way comparing Manny's "crimes" to Aaron's although Manny was once accused of beating his wife.

 
I'll play along with the hypothetical...however unlikely the scenario.  I don't know where the line is, but Hernandez is clearly on the wrong side of it. So no ovation from me. And condemnation of whoever thought it would be a good idea to do it.
 
(Query whether the Bills have ever included OJ in any sort of celebration? His teams sucked, but the analogy might hold up.)
 
The overall point is a fair one, though. There is a line (for me anyway).  I, for example, probably would forget to invite Ugueth Urbina to a celebration of the  '02 Sox. (And then be accused of hypocrisy by Misserootti for inviting Manny, but not Oogie.)

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

 I happen to agree with JMOH on this one but I am curious where he draws the line. If the 2011 Pats ever are honored at the Razor and Aaron Hernandez gives a video statement from jail, will you be standing up giving him an ovation. I would not, but I'm curious where the line is drawn. I want to state that I am in no way comparing Manny's "crimes" to Aaron's although Manny was once accused of beating his wife.
 

 
No. I would not cheer for Aaron Hernandez. Hopefully he will be convicted of his crimes and sent away to prison. I don't agree with athletes that rape women, nor do I agree with athletes that smack their girlfriends/wives around. However as timlin said, his wife seems to have forgiven him and he hasn't (*I hope*) done it again. And for the record, I am against all of this stuff for any man; famous or not.
 
The better question to ask is what do you want out of a professional athlete? I want the guy to do well on the field. That's it. What he does off the field (both good and bad) is almost completely immaterial to me. The palp that we were fed as kids: athletes are all-American, milk drinking, prayers saying, going to be early, do-gooders is complete bullshit. There was never a time, ever, when an athlete was like that. And it would be impossible for any man to live up to that high standard. People really, really need to get over this myth.

 

[Buffalo Head]

Where was all the hate for Johnny Damon the other night? Could it be that we have gotten past his going to the Yankees and decided instead to recall what he did in Game 7? But we can't do that for Manny? OK.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Where was all the hate for Johnny Damon the other night? Could it be that we have gotten past his going to the Yankees and decided instead to recall what he did in Game 7? But we can't do that for Manny? OK.

While I get what you are going for, Damon isn't known as a jackass while he was here and he didn't have the off the field issues that Manny had either.  His lone transgression was that he went to the Yankees.

 

[Buffalo Head]

Manny never forgot which knee was injured. That was shit made up by the media, or was said as a joke, with Tim McCarver leading the pack.
 
McCarver first cracked the knee gag in 2006. No one in the Boston media picked up on it and used it themselves until McCarver resurrected it in 2008.
 
I did some research in 2008 and decided the story was a myth:
http://joyofsox.blogspot.ca/2008/10/origins-of-manny-forgot-which-knee-hurt.html

Dude, if you're looking up something in 2006 about Manny and which knee was injured, you already blew it. The knee thing was in 2008. It was the Friday night the week before he was traded. He took himself out of the lineup in Seattle on Wednesday, and Francona called bullshit on it during the media session that morning, which was a HUGE red flag that Manny was tanking. Then on Friday back home against the Yankees, he said he still couldn't play and the Red Sox sent him to get an MRI on both knees, and it was pretty well understood that they did that because they felt he was faking it. Had he not returned to the lineup on Saturday, they were going to suspend him. That's the "Manny forgot which knee hurt" story, and it was very real.

 

[Buffalo Head]

While I get what you are going for, Damon isn't known as a jackass while he was here and he didn't have the off the field issues that Manny had either.  His lone transgression was that he went to the Yankees.

Maybe you weren't following the team from 2006-12. Damon leaving for the Yankees was considered a pretty big transgression around these parts.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Maybe you weren't following the team from 2006-12. Damon leaving for the Yankees was considered a pretty big transgression around these parts.

It was considered a big transgression, by the fans.  However the argument against Manny is that he didn't always play and made excuses to get out of the lineup and then eventually shoot his way out of town.  Damon was never questioned about not showing up to the ballpark and giving his all while he was here.  It's two totally different scenarios in my opinion. 

 

[gammoseditor]

 
You insinuated very heavily. I was just playing your game.
 
 
Yes and no.
 
 
My larger point is this: Manny may have been a jerk six years ago but he seems to have turn the corner, or at least he says he has. He's apologized to the McCormack (who has accepted his apology), he apologized to Boston as a whole and the one guy who attempted to kick his ass out of Boston, at least three times, has hired him to work as a minor league coach, mentoring the potential young stars of his new organization. Two major players in the Manny-as-an-asshole mix, who have much bigger stakes than you or WenZink, accepted his apologies. Why are you still hung up on hating a man you don't know, who has brought joy to your life through the things he did on the field?
 
The argument that you don't understand (actually, you do understand this--or you should, it's pretty simple) is that off the field, athletes are probably not "nice" people. The same with politicians, actors, other less famous people that you may not know. But the last four words in that sentence are key, "you may not know". Manny seems to be pretty beloved by his teammates: Ortiz, Pedro, Millar, some of the guys in Cleveland and they know Manny better than you or I will. A lot of the Manny is an asshole thing is a media meme that keeps getting repeated over and over and over again until it's "truth". Just the other day, Bertran joked about Manny showing up on time to the celebration. There's a lot of things that you can say about Manny, but from everything that I've read, the dude has an unbelievable work ethic -- forget being one of the best right handed hitters ever, the guy wouldn't have made the majors if he was a complete lazy ass.
 
And that feeds into my overall point, how do we (you or WZ) KNOW that Manny is an asshole? We hear everything second and third-hand through the media. The same media that is chastising the Red Sox fandom for being "fanboys" for celebrating the 2004 World Series. The same media that circles the wagons so that no-talent, lazy asses like Nick Cafardo can write the same bullshit over and over and over again while collect six-figure+ paychecks. Forgive me if I don't take every word of the Boston media as gospel when it comes to athletes, especially minority athletes who won't give them the time.
 
Even if the Boston media was right and Manny Ramirez was the world's biggest asshole off-the-field, what the hell do I care if he's raking on the field? Please tell me because honestly, what am I supposed to give two shits about. Here's a hypothetical, two years ago people in New England were cheering for Aaron Hernandez but booing John Lackey. Last time I checked, Lackey didn't murder three people. BUT how are we supposed to know who the "good guys" are who the "bad guys" are? The answer is we don't. Ever. We don't really know what goes on an athlete's life any more than you know what really goes on in your neighbor's house. Unlike your neighbor, these guys play for teams we root for, so how do we make the choice? I don't, because I don't know for sure. And I'm not sure how you do. 

 
I actually agree with just about everything above.  The point I originally disagreed with was your point that "What does it matter what kind of individual he is?"  Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant by this.  I still dont' think if you look what I wrote that I compare Manny to a rapist.  My point was to ask where you draw the ilne if you don't care what kid of an individual he is. 

 

[BlackJack]

While I get what you are going for, Damon isn't known as a jackass while he was here and he didn't have the off the field issues that Manny had either.  His lone transgression was that he went to the Yankees.

 
Beyond that - Mazz et al were very butt hurt that Damon got booed after going to the Yankees.  The problem that Mazz and the other media types have is that the fans don't just fall in line and hate the players that they tell us to hate.
 
 

Dude, if you're looking up something in 2006 about Manny and which knee was injured, you already blew it. The knee thing was in 2008. It was the Friday night the week before he was traded. He took himself out of the lineup in Seattle on Wednesday, and Francona called bullshit on it during the media session that morning, which was a HUGE red flag that Manny was tanking. Then on Friday back home against the Yankees, he said he still couldn't play and the Red Sox sent him to get an MRI on both knees, and it was pretty well understood that they did that because they felt he was faking it. Had he not returned to the lineup on Saturday, they were going to suspend him. That's the "Manny forgot which knee hurt" story, and it was very real.

 
You really ought to go read what joyofsox wrote on his website - his research is sound.

 

[tomdeplonty]

Dude, if you're looking up something in 2006 about Manny and which knee was injured, you already blew it. 

 
I think joyofsox was addressing the idea that Manny was caught malingering, because he couldn't remember which knee was injured. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that happened. If you read reports written at the time (like http://articles.courant.com/2008-07-27/sports/soxnotes0727.art_1_john-w-henry-red-sox-lineup), when they mention which one, they say that Manny sat claiming his right knee was hurt. It's true that he was sent for an MRI on both knees, and it's true that Francona said that in the presser. But if you follow the link in joyofsox's post, the 2006 stuff from McCarver is sourced. Note also that post was written in 2008, not long after the trade.
 
I think the way Manny got out of town was unprofessional. But it went down in the context of his trying to renegotiate his options, so there are parts of the story (which may or may not mitigate Manny's behavior) that we can't know. As far as the other off-field stuff, the people he hurt seem to have forgiven him, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to continue to hold it against him. And - he was one of the greatest hitters the team has ever seen, and 2004 and 2007 don't happen without him. It's complicated. Why do we need to simplify it to hero or a villain?
 
Edit: typo

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

 
 
You really ought to go read what joyofsox wrote on his website - his research is sound.

 
BH has the right of it though. Suffice it to say BH's knowledge of that situation is quite solid.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The point I originally disagreed with was your point that "What does it matter what kind of individual he is?"  Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant by this.  I still dont' think if you look what I wrote that I compare Manny to a rapist.  My point was to ask where you draw the ilne if you don't care what kid of an individual he is.
 

 
You know, this is a legit question. I thought that you were trying to phrase it as, "Okay, he pushed over an old man, he hit his wife, he took PEDs but what if he raped someone?" Sort of like the old story about Winston Churchill:
 

Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"
Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"
Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

 
Due to a lot of factors, it rarely ever surprises me what an athlete does in his private life (except Hernandez, that was a legit shocker) and I feel as if I've been around long enough to see most of it before. Most of the time I just shrug it off and focus on the on-field stuff. I'm not sure how old you are, but if you lived through the OJ Simpson escapade, virtually nothing about any public figure will cause you to think what we see for a small sliver of time every night is really what goes on.

 

[WenZink]

You misspelled 3. You don't get to make up facts.

 
What did I make up?  Manny's 2008 OPS as a member of the Red Sox was .926.  His 2008 OPS with LA was 1.232.  His OPS+ went from 137 to 221.

 

[Reverend]

 

It doesn't matter though because these people are athletes, nothing more. Why is it that a man who can crush a 95 MPH fastball also has to be St. Francis of Assisi? Why do we expect this out of athletes but not from politicians, actors or other walks of life?

 
In all fairness, if I found out that Manny talked to birds I wouldn't at all be surprised.
 
 

But I understand the reverence fanboys and pink-hats have for their Manny, which is why I didn't bring up the point in the Sox 10th Anniversary thread on the main board, and why I didn't bring it up until after the event.  I know the deal with most fans.  Manny will always be celebrated in Boston, by many, because he was a great hitter.  If he'd been a mediocre hitter he'd be remembered as a bad man.  When Lackey was dealing with a bum elbow, many fans saw him as an asshole and a clubhouse cancer.  Since Lackey rehabbed from his elbow surgery and he's pitching well, fans notice the change in Lackey as a person and how he's now a mentor to young players, no longer a clubhouse pariah.  Beckett used to "Josh Effin' Beckett" when he was one of the best in the league, but once his performance fell off a cliff, his coarse, taciturn manner turned his perception into being an a-hole and a terrible influence in the clubhouse.  I have news for you; neither Lackey or Beckett changed off the field, it's just that the fans' perception changed because of their performance on the field.

 
There's a lot to not like in this:

• For starters, I don't really like the term pink hats and tend to think it reflects poorly on people who use it--including good friends of mine--for associating fair weather fans with women, so this has an complicated relationship with your moral high ground positioning.
• Building on that, to go with the expression, Manny is the reason there are pink hats. They don't win in 2004 without Manny, which led to the cultural phenomenon of the pink hats. So your usage is all fucked up in ways that are kind interesting. So it's not like pink hats just liked Manny because they were mindless, but rather he was so good at baseball that he made it possible.
• As JMOH already pointed out, if he were mediocre as a hitter he wouldn't be remembered as a bad man, but not remembered at all. That's key--the flip side of your point is that we only know of his transgressions because he could hit; who else is out there that we don't dislike or even like, but only because we don't know? How many coworkers do you have?
• Minor nit, but Lackey was never a club house pariah; his teammates always liked him and stood up for him. That was actually an interesting conundrum for the Lackey haters. Lackey is different, though, because new information was released after the season with respect to his elbow.
• Did anyone not know Beckett was a maniac even when he was good? Yeah, certain things are put up with if a person brings other things to the table, but that's not true just of baseball ability; we weigh the different aspects of a person and evaluate the whole. Perhaps you are of the mind that a person can be irrevocably tainted by certain things, but if so, it seems like you actually have a pretty low bar and I'm pretty harsh on things like hitting women. Similarly, I understand people looking askance at Lackey getting a divorce with his wife while she had cancer, but I don't know that anyone should be assessed as a person based on the disfunction of a bad relationship.

 

 
Fuck this with a hammer. I categorically reject the idea that only part-time or fairweather fans can have reverence for Manny.

 
An old, good friend of mine who was a maniac Yankee fan in those days fucking loved Manny. Could watch him for hours.
 
 

 
But it doesn't work that way. In today's climate of  "I'm more morally outraged than you are. No I am. No I am" Manny Ramirez and Aaron Hernadez are the same guy.

 
Good thing they're not, because no way Manny misses those other guys running from the car.
 
 

 
As I said earlier, I get it.  I understand the "requirements" of being a "true fan."  I just don't agree with them.

 
:bill-throwing:
 

 

[The Napkin]

 
What did I make up?  Manny's 2008 OPS as a member of the Red Sox was .926.  His 2008 OPS with LA was 1.232.  His OPS+ went from 137 to 221.

3 /= 5

 

[Reverend]

 
Yeah, I was there.  Manny played 95 games and 5 PH appearances for a total of 100 for the Red Sox in 109 games.  Once he got to LA he played in the field for all 53 of their games.  And his OPS was .300 higher.

 
This doesn't really hold up as evidence though. I mean, yes, it was .300 higher, but that's in 53 games in the National League where the pitchers didn't know him.
 
Artist's reenactment:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 
The next season he put up a .290/.418/.531/.949 which was very similar to the .299/.398/.529/.926 he put up in the partial season in Boston the year before. So really, this doesn't really scan. Maybe he dogged a couple of games, but just the Boston line would have been good enough for 14th in OPS in all of baseball and 5th in the AL, so the idea that he was dogging it all the time seems pretty dubious.

 

[The Napkin]

There's that. And the fact that his OPS was awful in May (.714) which drags down his Boston average. And it it improved in June (.930). And improved more in July (1.060). Funny thing for a guy who had quit to have happen.
 
But, you know, that one at bat he looked bad that one time.

 

[URI]

 I happen to agree with JMOH on this one but I am curious where he draws the line. If the 2011 Pats ever are honored at the Razor and Aaron Hernandez gives a video statement from jail, will you be standing up giving him an ovation. I would not, but I'm curious where the line is drawn. I want to state that I am in no way comparing Manny's "crimes" to Aaron's although Manny was once accused of beating his wife.

 
Probably at the major felonies.
 
Six years later, and Manny Ramirez still makes people lose their heads on this site.  All we need is a Selfish.  Pussy.  Prick. thread about Pedro and 2am chats where Schilling tells us how much of a pussy Scott Williamson is (after it came out his entire arm is shredded) and it's like 2003 all over again.

 

[WenZink]

 
Sure you do.  Because if there's anything at all that this forum symbolizes, it's the "'requirements' of  being a 'true fan.'" (and official citizenship in RedSoxNation.)
 
I think everyone here gets why people might feel discomfort/distaste/disagreement with Manny's role in the ceremony the other night, even if, for most here, those feelings were overshadowed by appreciation for his on-field accomplishments.  But when you ascribe your opinions to a) your own moral superiority and b) everyone else's "true fandom," "pink hattedness," and "worshipping at the altar" -- all terms which I assume you know are insults -- you sound like a jerk.
 
The problem isn't that Masserotti or Shaughnessy or anyone else doesn't think Manny deserving; I disagree with that, but I get it.  The problem is that they can't (and you can't, it seems), express that view without insulting the people who don't see it the same way. 

 
This is one of the few valid replies and I'll be sincere in my reply.
 
There are certain lines that an athlete can't cross, and they differ depending upon the individual's view of life.  We all (or most of us) agree that betting on sports merits the death penalty, and that Pete Rose deserved (at least) some of his punishment.  We might differ about whether or not, given his final full confession, he belongs in the HOF.
 
But to me, another type of unforgivable transgression is intentionally tanking one's performance, which I believe Manny purposely did, in order to get out of his contract and out of Boston.  I'm sure other athletes have tanked and I didn't notice it.  But in Manny's case, he didn't disguise his actions, because he wanted to make it painfully clear to the F.O. that he wasn't going to play ball, literally and figuratively, if they held him to the two remaining options.  So disguising it would have been counter-productive to the goal he was trying to achieve.  If I were part of the 2008 Sox F.O. I would have pushed to have Manny put on a suspended list, but the Sox, being far more practical. tried to make the best out of the mess and engineered a 3 way trade that brought them Jason Bay.  But to me, as a fan, all I ask is that they don't intentionally tank.  I can forgive personal issues, off the field, or poor performance because of lack of mental/physical preparedness, but if you're ready and able to play, do your best, under whatever condition, when you're on the field.
 
So I guess I have two death penalties, betting on baseball and intentionally tanking to get more money.  If that sounds "uppity" or "insane" than I plead nolo contendre.
 

There's that. And the fact that his OPS was awful in May (.714) which drags down his Boston average. And it it improved in June (.930). And improved more in July (1.060). Funny thing for a guy who had quit to have happen.
 
But, you know, that one at bat he looked bad that one time.

 
I still don't get it.  You accused me of "making up facts," and that's your reply?

 

[URI]

 
 
But, you know, that one at bat he looked bad that one time.

 
But it was against a shitbum pitcher no one has ever heard of, so it's proof he gave up.

 

[nattysez]

But to me, another type of unforgivable transgression is intentionally tanking one's performance, which I believe Manny purposely did, in order to get out of his contract and out of Boston.  I'm sure other athletes have tanked and I didn't notice it.  But in Manny's case, he didn't disguise his actions, because he wanted to make it painfully clear to the F.O. that he wasn't going to play ball, literally and figuratively, if they held him to the two remaining options.  So disguising it would have been counter-productive to the goal he was trying to achieve.  If I were part of the 2008 Sox F.O. I would have pushed to have Manny put on a suspended list, but the Sox, being far more practical. tried to make the best out of the mess and engineered a 3 way trade that brought them Jason Bay. 
 

 
You're aware that two of the people in charge of the 2008 Sox F.O. just hired Manny to be a player-coach for their AAA team, right?  
 
This demonstrates pretty clearly that his alleged tanking was either (1) not viewed as tanking by the FO or (2) not viewed as an "unforgivable transgression," which pretty much undermines everything you've written.

 

[joyofsox]

Dude, if you're looking up something in 2006 about Manny and which knee was injured, you already blew it. The knee thing was in 2008. It was the Friday night the week before he was traded. He took himself out of the lineup in Seattle on Wednesday, and Francona called bullshit on it during the media session that morning, which was a HUGE red flag that Manny was tanking. Then on Friday back home against the Yankees, he said he still couldn't play and the Red Sox sent him to get an MRI on both knees, and it was pretty well understood that they did that because they felt he was faking it. Had he not returned to the lineup on Saturday, they were going to suspend him. That's the "Manny forgot which knee hurt" story, and it was very real.

I included the 2006 quote because it existed - and by some strange coincidence was the exact same line that was used two years later by McCarver and others.
 
The Courant article you linked to mentions the team's skepticism about Manny's sore right knee. That's it. No word about his left knee or any confusion between the two. Why was the MRI done on both knees? The article doesn't say at all.
 
From all the stuff I read, and the timeline of the various articles, I think the whole thing was most likely a myth that got repeated enough to become "truth". Other readers may come to different conclusions.

 

[Reverend]

 
This is one of the few valid replies and I'll be sincere in my reply.
 
. . .
 
I still don't get it.  You accused me of "making up facts," and that's your reply?

 
No, that was his reply to my post, not yours. As to yours, he's saying there were only 3 PH appearances when you indicated 5. It's pretty clear above, so I'm not sure what the confusion is.
 
That first line of that post is kinda snotty, by the way. Certainly some are frustrated with your posts, but there has been a lot of substance in the responses. If anything, your defensiveness is diminishing any debate their might be--if this were a classroom, it would be you who'd probably have been thrown out by now.

 

[tomdeplonty]

The Courant article you linked to mentions the team's skepticism about Manny's sore right knee. That's it. No word about his left knee or any confusion between the two. Why was the MRI done on both knees? The article doesn't say at all.

 
Uh...I linked the Courant article, not Buffalo Head. By way of pointing out that articles written at the time talk about the right knee, when they say which one at all.

 

[Buffalo Head]

NM

 

 

[joe dokes]

 
 
So I guess I have two death penalties, betting on baseball and intentionally tanking to get more money.  If that sounds "uppity" or "insane" than I plead nolo contendre.
 
 
 

 
Basically, you're throwing out the entirety of his career over what was a week or 2 of petulant immaturity.  The "tanking" comes down to exactly one AB. 
 

I can forgive personal issues, off the field, or poor performance because of lack of mental/physical preparedness, but if you're ready and able to play, do your best, under whatever condition, when you're on the field.
 

 
And given what was going on with management at the time, its also possible that he was "mentally unprepared" to pinch hit (for one of only 3 times that year) against the best reliever in history.

 

[The Napkin]

 
This is one of the few valid replies and I'll be sincere in my reply.

 
"I can't counter any of the actual numbers that are being discussed so I'm going to sweep them under the rug and ignore them. Instead I'll double down on my feeling that deep down inside I'm super duper sure that that one time the bad man had a bad at bat and he meant it and he was a big meanie. Because my eyes and my feelings are valid."
 

 
I still don't get it.  You accused me of "making up facts," and that's your reply?

 
To start, they were 2 different points. I addressed your made up facts in a different post and was adding additional information to Rev's post in this one. Perhaps it's hard for you to juggle two different conversations at once so I'll go slowly and take them one at a time.
 
1) You said Manny quit on the team. As evidence of this you trotted out that "there were days when there was nothing to see in 2008 because Manny wasn't on the field". I pointed out that in reality he played 100 games for the Red Sox (who are the team that play in Boston) and was on a pace to play more games than anyone not named Dustin Pedroia and that seemed odd for someone who wasn't on the field. You pointed out that he played the field in 95 games and PH in 5. I pointed out that no, he PH in 3. And that 3 is less than 5. Someone less charitable than me might wonder if you were deliberately trying to make it seem like he played fewer games than he did. But even taking that into account I'll be generous and throw out those 3 PH appearances. I'll even use your made up 5 PH appearance number. With 95 games played he was still on pace to play more games than anyone not named Dustin Pedroia. That seems odd for someone who had quit and wasn't on the team. It's almost like that's not an accurate representation of what happened.
In conclusion your thesis that he "wasn't on the field" is wrong. And you tried to massage it to look that way by either making up numbers or using them incorrectly.
 
2) In a separate conversation Rev pointed out a possible reason why he might have had inflated numbers on moving to the NL. You know, the league that the AL bitch slapped all over the pace and was widely considered the inferior league. He also pointed out that 53 games is a pretty small sample size. And showed that Manny's numbers the next year were in line with what he had done with the Red Sox in 2008. Which is odd. You would have thought if he had quit on the team his numbers would have been out of line with his normal full year numbers. He also pointed out that his numbers in Boston in 2008 would have been good for "14th in OPS in all of baseball and 5th in the AL". That's pretty good for someone who had quit. I found this interesting and nodded and said huh, that's interesting. I then looked deeper into his splits and saw that he had had a pretty shitty May and his numbers were getting better by the month when he was with the Red Sox. You might even say they were trending up. Which is an odd thing to have happen after you've quit and are mailing it in. To add more take a look at his 2007 numbers: .296/.388/.493/.881. Wait. What were those 2008 numbers with the Red Sox again? Huh. Rev tells me they are .299/.398/.529/.926. So his 2008 numbers with the Red Sox were ... better than his 2007 numbers with the Red Sox? And compare favorably with his 2009 numbers (.290/.418/.531/.949)? That's whacky I tell you! That sure looks like someone who was tanking in 2008 I tell you what.
In conclusion it doesn't shock me all that much that a guy whose numbers were trending up who then went to a league where people were unfamiliar with him and he faced, in general, inferior competition that his numbers continued to trend up. And when you look at the numbers in context they fall generally right in line with what you would expect them to. If not a little higher.

 

[The Napkin]

 
Basically, you're throwing out the entirety of his career over what was a week or 2 of petulant immaturity.  The "tanking" comes down to exactly one AB. 
 
 
And given what was going on with management at the time, its also possible that he was "mentally unprepared" to pinch hit (for one of only 3 times that year) against the best reliever in history.

(I'll just put this here and walk away slowly)
 

.351/.467/.622, 2 HR, 8 RBI, 8 R
 
That's Manny's line in his last 10 games in a Boston uniform.  That's not the line put up by a guy who quit and "sabotaged" the team.  If they hold on to him at the deadline and he finishes 2008 in Boston, "knee-gate" is just another comedic Manny-being-Manny blip along side "Manny is back and he's back BIG" and dinner with Enrique Wilson.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Random thought, but at this point should this argument be broken out somewhere else as this doesn't exactly pertain to the Felger and Mazz show anymore.

 

[WenZink]

 
No, that was his reply to my post, not yours. As to yours, he's saying there were only 3 PH appearances when you indicated 5. It's pretty clear above, so I'm not sure what the confusion is.
 
That first line of that post is kinda snotty, by the way. Certainly some are frustrated with your posts, but there has been a lot of substance in the responses. If anything, your defensiveness is diminishing any debate their might be--if this were a classroom, it would be you who'd probably have been thrown out by now.

 
If I were being defensive, I'd have gotten into a poo-throwing contest with the poster that called me a "shitheel" and asked me to "go pound this."  In most classes I've been in he'd been thrown out by now.
 
And yes, it was 3 PH appearances.  I was going by a b-ref game log and included a game where Manny started the game and was removed after 1 PA, and apparently double counted another.  And it wasn't clear to me, since his accusation was that I had "mis-spelled 3."  I thought he was referring to Manny's OPS with the Dodgers where it was .300 above the Sox OPS vs the fact that his combined OPS rose .100 after the July 31st trade.  That's where I thought the confusion lay.
 

 
Basically, you're throwing out the entirety of his career over what was a week or 2 of petulant immaturity.  The "tanking" comes down to exactly one AB. 
 
----

 
It was more than that one AB, but that was the one blatant instance.  Manny had a history that began in Cleveland.  27 indictments.  1 conviction.

 

[Dogman]

Are you even reading what others are writing in response to your inanity?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Manny's OPS+ in 2008  when he was supposedly quitting on the team was higher than his OPS+ in 2007 when he supposedly wasn't. 
 
Enough with this nonsense. You don't like him, that's fine really. As a longtime Trot Nixon hater, I can get that, easily. Manny could certainly be an enormous pain in the ass. But making up things to support your emotional response to him is pretty silly. And doing that while staking out a dubious moral high ground is the cherry on top of that particular poop sundae. Just admit it's your deal and we can all move on. I never expected anyone to think I was sane for hating Trot so much.
 
If Jack Fucking McCormick, the man he pushed to the ground in 2008, can find it in his heart to forgive Manny, and yet you can't, that's your business. Don't try to use it to maker yourself a "superior" fan.
 
(Perhaps relevant: I wound up meeting Trot in 2012 and surprisingly found I didn't hate him any more because he wasn't a player and my reasons for hating him had long since passed on. Mazz would not have approved.)