David Ortiz, Elder Batsman

CoRP

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Where are those numbers from? BBref has Lester at .50 WPA through last night (.201 for game 1, .303 for game 5).
fangraphs: .314 + .21 - 0.162 (batting!)
 

SaveBooFerriss

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SumnerH said:
HOF has to be a lock now, right? This is absurd.
 
Unfortunately, there are some voters that either ignore or severely discount post season accomplishments when evaluating HOF credentials.  I never understood that.  
 

Super Nomario

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bankshot1 said:
At some point HoF voters are going to recognize the DH, which has been around for 40 years, as a legitimate position in baseball. If closers can by voted in, (I think there are 5) then DHs will be, and when they are there are two guys who go in, Papi and Edgar. The PED issue for Papi is tricky, and to the extent its held against him years from now will be interesting. 
They voted in Paul Molitor, who spent more time at DH than anywhere else (~1200 of his ~2700 games).
 

Hagios

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Brianish said:
 
I remember Pap describing part of it on Letterman. It apparently included the line 'You're wearing a Boston Red Sox jersey. That means you're a bad mother-fucker.'
 
Samuel L Jackson has a wallet that says "David Ortiz" on it.
 

NatetheGreat

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SaveBooFerriss said:
 
Unfortunately, there are some voters that either ignore or severely discount post season accomplishments when evaluating HOF credentials.  I never understood that.  
 
Yeah, I can understand not counting a lack of postseason success against a player, since players have so little control over whether they get the opportunity to perform in the postseason. But if they do get the opportunity and take advantage of it, not counting postseason success for a player seems bizarre. "These are the most important games you'll play in your entire career, but when evaluating whether your career is HoF worthy, we're going to ignore them" doesn't really make any sense.
 

smastroyin

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I'd love to see what would happen if David Ortiz had to pitch.
 
I don't think it's really fair to count pitcher hitting against them - especially since a huge part of the his -WPA hitting is the fact that he was good enough to last until late innings in a close game:
 
3rd inning, Sox up 1-0, none on, none out:  -.021
5th inning, Tied 1-1, two on, one out:  -.058
7th inning, Up 2-1, two on, one out:  -..083
 
Obviously, batting in the 7th, which accounted for more than half of his -WPA, allowed him to accumulate more WPA pitching (.106 I think)
 
But, pitchers are now 0-15 in the series.  So really, what do you expect.
 
M

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went9 said:
Big Papi's triple slash after 5 World Series games in 2013: .733/.750/1.267... my God.
 
15AB, 5R, 11H, 2HR, 2 2B, 6RBI, 4BB, and with all the SO's in this series, Zero Strike Outs for the Big Guy.
 
Bring home the hardware David Ortiz.
 
Skip to 1'08".  I can't get the "t" parameter on Youtube to work for embedding.
 
[media]http://youtu.be/46UHYBXL3o8?t=1m8s[/media]
 
The man is a hero.
 

Koufax

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NatetheGreat said:
 
Yeah, I can understand not counting a lack of postseason success against a player, since players have so little control over whether they get the opportunity to perform in the postseason. But if they do get the opportunity and take advantage of it, not counting postseason success for a player seems bizarre. "These are the most important games you'll play in your entire career, but when evaluating whether your career is HoF worthy, we're going to ignore them" doesn't really make any sense.
I don't know what voters consider, but I do remember that Roberto Clemente felt that the 1971 WS was his moment on the big stage when he could showcase his talents before a national audience.  His 1.210 OPS (together with some great performances in the outfield) greatly burnished his reputation, increasing his chances of getting into the HOF.   Now there are obvious differences between his situation and that of David Ortiz, but when you consider that David's OPS in 3 WS combined (1.370) exceeds that of Clemente's highlight reel of 1971, it seems as though his performance should help him, just as Clemente's did.   
 

shepard50

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1.370 is an amazing OPS for 3 World Series. I wondered what David Ortiz' OPS is in this Series in its own. Through Game 5 his slash line looks like this:
 
.733/.750/1.267. giving him a 2.017 OPS.
 
In other words, David is averaging getting to 2b....or, in fact, a little better.
 

LondonSox

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Look at X just behind lester (and only just).
Which when you think how outstanding lesters two starts have been is pretty amazing.

And how is koji negative? Nava is a negative too? Both worse than salty.

I now immediately am dubious
 

Blacken

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NomarRS05 said:
He gets his number retired in Fenway either way. Has to.
I have repeatedly agitated for just retiring it now. Why wait?
 

NatetheGreat

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No other player will be associated with these 3 championships the way Ortiz will be, and that can only help his chances. Since David Ortiz joined the Red Sox, he has been in the argument for their best hitter nearly every year, and they've been the most successful team in baseball. 
 

canderson

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I posted this in the game thread, but I'm serious: retire his number during the parade that's coming in a few days. No reason to wait. Do it when he's at the highest peak.
 

SumnerH

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If he doesn't make the Hall, should I laugh incessantly or cry quietly in the corner? The best you can do is put him on base at an 80% clip in the deciding game.
 

TFisNEXT

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I said it earlier, but now its true...if the Sox won this series, Ortiz is in the Hall. Well we won it, and Ortiz got the "Barry Bonds" treatment in the deciding game. He should be in after this. This post season was a transadential month for David Ortiz...it defined his career as the best post season hitter baseball has ever seen. There was still a question in the eyes of the voters going into tonight. If they lost the next two games then he would merely be remembered as an amazing clutch hitter who was surrounded in the PED scandal and didn't quite do enough to make his mark to deserve Hall status....but with the win and his obvious MVP, he has cemented himself in the elite. 3 rings with a formerly ring-less Boston team that was famous for choking...now a team in his time known for being clutch because of him.

Simply sweetness.
 

TFisNEXT

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SumnerH said:
You misspelled "transcendental".

/I'mAJerk
Yes, I did. I am a spelling nerd too, but I won't correct it as I'm too happy right now. Let everything ride.
 

h8mfy

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Papi just described to the MLB guys how his approach has changed "since his prime" and he now stays focused on his plan where he used to get thrown off by a single pitch because of his youthful ability to drive the ball even when it was not what he was looking for.

Elder batsman, indeed.
 

TFisNEXT

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h8mfy said:
Papi just described to the MLB guys how his approach has changed "since his prime" and he now stays focused on his plan where he used to get thrown off by a single pitch because of his youthful ability to drive the ball even when it was not what he was looking for.

Elder batsman, indeed.
It was obvious a long time ago that Ortiz changed approach...it happened around the same time Adrian Gonzalez got here. His K rate plummeted (i mean PLUMMETED) and his walk rate essentially stayed the same. Once that happened, Ortiz recaptured his title of one of the most feared hitters in the league. He still had power, but just not quite to the extent he did in his prime, but it was fully good enough. Ortiz honestly has one of the weirdest career paths in terms of hitting metrics you will ever see. I'm not sure you can find a match for his power peak and then a resurgance with that declined K rate with still good power that he has now.
 

Blacken

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They've already sold tickets for Game 7. Just put his jersey up on the wall tomorrow night. It's cool.
 

smastroyin

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Meh, he finished with an OPS below 2.000 for the Series.  Try harder next time Papi.
 

bougrj1

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It still blows my mind that there is a human (debatable?) that has three rings with the Red Sox as a player.  It's just amazing how much fun it has been to watch this guy over the last 10+ years.
 

wiffleballhero

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This is likely to fade into the background, but to my mind, one of the most important moments in game 6 was Ortiz's first AB. It was obvious -- I thought -- that Wacha really over extended in that ab. He was throwing 97 which he did not hit again, I don't think.  Wacha seemed both taxed and somewhat astonished that he could not get Ortiz to chase some pretty nice off speed stuff, nor could he blow it by him. It seemed like that was just enough pressure that by the next time through the line-up the weight was too much for Wacha to handle. If he cruises past Ortiz in the first, he maybe picks up some steam and the game unfolds differently.
 

joe dokes

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TFisNEXT said:
It was obvious a long time ago that Ortiz changed approach...it happened around the same time Adrian Gonzalez got here. His K rate plummeted (i mean PLUMMETED) and his walk rate essentially stayed the same. Once that happened, Ortiz recaptured his title of one of the most feared hitters in the league. He still had power, but just not quite to the extent he did in his prime, but it was fully good enough. Ortiz honestly has one of the weirdest career paths in terms of hitting metrics you will ever see. I'm not sure you can find a match for his power peak and then a resurgance with that declined K rate with still good power that he has now.
 
That got me looking a bit. Hank Aaron never was a big strikeout guy (in the 80s and 90s), but as he got older, he struck out less, but power was still quite good. Not bad company to keep.
 
Willie Stargell may be another one.
 

soxfan121

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Lose Remerswaal said:
Still needs 2 hits to catch Marty Barrett for most hits by a Red Sox player in a World Series.
 
I saw this factoid on a FOX graphic last night and it blew my mind. How big a legend around here would Marty Barrett be if...? Damn. We'd probably be the Sons of Marty Barrett. 
 
And the Elder Batsman...I wouldn't mind renaming this place the Sons of David Ortiz. Sam is jerk and the ennui that led to the original name no longer exists. Because of the greatest player to wear #34 since Rich Garces...David Fucking Ortiz. 
 
Turn on your ability to see signatures. I've had that top line since Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, when it was written by some NYYFans.com poster. "If we had Ortiz we could still be chanting 1918 at games." David Ortiz erased 1918, not by himself, but more than anyone. Erased it from all the notable factoids about this team. Made it irrelevant. David Ortiz changed Boston baseball forever. Our Sons of David Ortiz will not care about any of the baggage Red Sox fans had in the past. They will only know the team that David Fucking Ortiz Built...a three time World Series winner, The Elder Batsman of October, the best motherfucking postseason hitter ever and the man who proclaimed that this is OUR FUCKING CITY.
 
Sons of David Ortiz. So say we all.
 

Rovin Romine

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soxfan121 said:
 
I saw this factoid on a FOX graphic last night and it blew my mind. How big a legend around here would Marty Barrett be if...? Damn. We'd probably be the Sons of Marty Barrett. 
 
And the Elder Batsman...I wouldn't mind renaming this place the Sons of David Ortiz. Sam is jerk and the ennui that led to the original name no longer exists. Because of the greatest player to wear #34 since Rich Garces...David Fucking Ortiz. 
 
Turn on your ability to see signatures. I've had that top line since Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, when it was written by some NYYFans.com poster. "If we had Ortiz we could still be chanting 1918 at games." David Ortiz erased 1918, not by himself, but more than anyone. Erased it from all the notable factoids about this team. Made it irrelevant. David Ortiz changed Boston baseball forever. Our Sons of David Ortiz will not care about any of the baggage Red Sox fans had in the past. They will only know the team that David Fucking Ortiz Built...a three time World Series winner, The Elder Batsman of October, the best motherfucking postseason hitter ever and the man who proclaimed that this is OUR FUCKING CITY.
 
Sons of David Ortiz. So say we all.
 
I was young but remember the series well.  Barrett and Hurst couldn't have done more to win that for us.  And Dewey and Hendu (arguably better than Barrett).  
 

Nite Vizhun UV

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soxfan121 said:
 
I saw this factoid on a FOX graphic last night and it blew my mind. How big a legend around here would Marty Barrett be if...? Damn. We'd probably be the Sons of Marty Barrett. 
 
And the Elder Batsman...I wouldn't mind renaming this place the Sons of David Ortiz. Sam is jerk and the ennui that led to the original name no longer exists. Because of the greatest player to wear #34 since Rich Garces...David Fucking Ortiz. 
 
Turn on your ability to see signatures. I've had that top line since Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, when it was written by some NYYFans.com poster. "If we had Ortiz we could still be chanting 1918 at games." David Ortiz erased 1918, not by himself, but more than anyone. Erased it from all the notable factoids about this team. Made it irrelevant. David Ortiz changed Boston baseball forever. Our Sons of David Ortiz will not care about any of the baggage Red Sox fans had in the past. They will only know the team that David Fucking Ortiz Built...a three time World Series winner, The Elder Batsman of October, the best motherfucking postseason hitter ever and the man who proclaimed that this is OUR FUCKING CITY.
 
Sons of David Ortiz. So say we all.
 
 
quick, register www.sodo.net
 

smastroyin

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Because David Ortiz went through Cardinal pitchers as if commanded by the demon that possessed his neighbor's dog.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Finished 3rd in the voting for Mayor with 560 write in votes
 

David Ortiz, designated hitter, World Series hero ... and mayor?
At least some voting Bostonians thought he should be on Tuesday when they wrote his name into the ballot box.
The burly slugger received the most of the 560 write-in votes for mayor, according to John Guilfoil at City Hall. While officials did not have an exact count, vote counters noticed he had a "high number" compared to other write-ins, according to a spokesman.
Given officials can only certify a write-in vote if the candidate requests it, it's a fair bet Ortiz -- beyond falling roughly 72,000 short of mayor-elect Martin J. Walsh -- had no chance of replacing Mayor Thomas M. Menino.
But the fervor around Big Papi is not all that surprising. He was named World Series MVP after batting .688, reaching base 19 of 25 times and driving in six runs over the six games. He also earned a Silver Slugger award yesterday for his season-long efforts. As far as prizes go, it's a nice runner-up to a fifth floor office in City Hall.
As for Menino himself, it was unclear how many write-in votes the Hyde Park hizzoner received. Given he, too, wasn't an official candidate, an exact number may not be available for weeks, if it ever is.
- See more at: http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2013/11/big_papi_top_write_in_for_mayor_of_this_expletive?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bostonherald%2Fnews%2Fregional+%28Local+%2F+Regional+-+News+%26+Opinion+-+BostonHerald.com%29#sthash.wic0ajCy.dpuf
 

m0ckduck

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TFisNEXT said:
There was still a question in the eyes of the voters going into tonight. If they lost the next two games then he would merely be remembered as an amazing clutch hitter who was surrounded in the PED scandal and didn't quite do enough to make his mark to deserve Hall status....but with the win and his obvious MVP, he has cemented himself in the elite. 
 
Ortiz's physique has no doubt hurt him in the eyes of half-informed HOF voters: he looks every bit the part of lumbering, one-dimensional slugger whose skill set becomes extinct in the post-PED era. His diminished power numbers have probably been enough to establish a lazy narrative of "elite for a few years, then just good for a long time" (when in fact his adjusted OPS over the past three years has been virtually level with his perceived 04-07 peak.) Since the resistance to his HOF credentials has always been rooted in semi-irrational sentiments (anti-DH bias coupled with PED suspicions), it would make sense if the thing that put him over the top was itself semi-irrational-- i.e. a terrorizing of the 2013 WS that doesn't mean much in terms of career numbers but shifts the narrative by refocusing attention on just how good he's been since the PED era. 
 
Ortiz is the best left-handed hitter of his era. From 2003 to 2013, he leads all LHBs in wRC, and leads in wRC+ for batters with a minimum of 4500 PA.  He's third overall in wRC for all batters behind Pujols and Cabrera. In a just world, that-- plus the postseason heroics and rings-- would be enough. 
 

Plympton91

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I think the Red Sox now and those in Ortiz's corner could also point out that he regularly plays 1B without embarrassing himself in National League parks during interleague and has started at 1B in every World Series game the Red Sox have played in an NL park (displacing Millar, Youkilis, and Napoli in the process, so not a no brainer if he were in fact a defensive liability).  He's played 32 regular season games at 1B since 2007 with only 1 error, further demonstrating that he could play 1B without being a disaster defensively if he needed to.  In contrast, during the latter stage of his career, Edgar Martinez played a total of 8 games in the field combined from 1999 to 2004, none after 2001.