David Ortiz, Elder Batsman

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AlNipper49 said:
David Ortiz is now tied with JD Drew for most career postseason hits which either tied or put the team ahead with 5.  (From Edes' column)
 
Tom Ricardo likes this.
 
edit: also, you're forgetting the two-run double in 2003 ALDS Game 4 that put us up 5-4 when we were behind.
 

Rovin Romine

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AlNipper49 said:
David Ortiz is now tied with JD Drew for most career postseason hits which either tied or put the team ahead with 5.  (From Edes' column)
 
 
Lose Remerswaal said:
 
Tied with JD Drew with 5, but Pete Rose and Bernie Williams each have 6.
 
Hits resulting in RBIs?   Hits resulting in an RBI when trailing?
 
Sounds weird as anyone with a first RBI will put the team ahead. . .
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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sfip said:
How close Torii Hunter was to catching it.
 
 
The whole sequence is just remarkable.  Ortiz sitting on the first pitch, Benoit missing by just a little, Hunter nearly making yet another of his HR-saving catches (as a side note, imagine what sort of tongue bath McBuck would be giving Torii for the rest of this series had he snagged it) and then the bullpen cop.  
 
I know this is an Ortiz thread but  Steven Horgan needs some love here too.    If the Sox win the ALCS, this image will almost certainly be iconic.  Hell, I want a t-shirt.
 
 

DukeSox

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No, there was lots of gap between ball and glove, just a tricky angle.
 

DrewDawg

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DukeSox said:
No, there was lots of gap between ball and glove, just a tricky angle.
 
Well, it's not quite as close as that angle makes it look, but it was pretty damn close. He overran it.
 

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DrewDawg said:
 
Well, it's not quite as close as that angle makes it look, but it was pretty damn close. He overran it.
 
While he did overrun it, I think Hunter actually timed the ball correctly, but it started to curve to the right toward the apex of it's flight.  You can see it on the various replays.  Without that little jink, it's very very catchable.  
 
Kudos to Hunter for an all out effort though!  The guy has nothing to be embarrassed about. 
 

TomRicardo

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David Ortiz will be in the Hall of Fame.
 
David Ortiz will be one of the most famous players in baseball history.  The man dragged the Red Sox through 2004 playoffs.  2004 playoffs are probably the most famous baseball playoffs in history.
 
The guy is a 9 time all star.  If he gets one more he will be at ten.  There are only a handful of players that are eligible for the HoF that made 10 all star games and aren't in the Hall. Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, and Mike Piazza make up that list. 
 
David Ortiz is simply iconic. 
 
Next two or three years are going to be death matches for HoF.
 

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My sister and her husband were in California this weekend for a wedding. I just got a text from her: "Getting on plane at SF airport. If anything happens, tell David Ortiz I love him."
 

KillerBs

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Papi's biggest post season HR ever? And is that saying something. One could debate it with the walk off in the 12th in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. But 45% WPA, is tough to beat.
 

terrisus

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Nope .. It's a catch .. It's probably happened hundreds of times
 
5.10(f) When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across
ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions
of 7.04(c) shall prevail.
 
7.04(c) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes
into a crowd when spectators are on the field;
Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand
or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball
after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and
each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base
at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.
 
 
 
Alright, maybe not a home run, but still.
 

BCsMightyJoeYoung

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terrisus said:
5.10(f) When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across
ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions
of 7.04(c) shall prevail.
 
7.04(c) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes
into a crowd when spectators are on the field;
Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand
or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball
after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and
each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base
at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.
 
 
 
Alright, maybe not a home run, but still.
There were two outs at the time .. The inning would have been over with Hunter making an all time great catch and no runs scored
 

JimD

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KillerBs said:
Papi's biggest post season HR ever? And is that saying something. One could debate it with the walk off in the 12th in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. But 45% WPA, is tough to beat.
 
No - if the Sox had lost last night, they still get to play at least two more games.  If they had lost game 4 in '04, their season would have been over.
 

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I can't honestly conceive of a scenario that would top '04 game 4. Those of us who were present must hold the line as time dilutes public perception of those events.
 

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No - if the Sox had lost last night, they still get to play at least two more games.  If they had lost game 4 in '04, their season would have been over.


Exactly. If there was a CPA that is to odds of winning the title as WPA is to winning the game, the 04 hit dwarfs this.
 

JimBoSox9

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But that tangent shouldn't stop the full and proper amounts of splooge being expended on last nights awesomeness.

Will Leitch wrote an Ortiz paean over at Sports on Earth: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/62935120/. Leigh Montville also has an excellent Sox column there.
 

Prodigal Sox

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terrisus said:
 
Over-ran it just a little bit, and had to reach backwards to try to get it.
If he hadn't over-ran it, he might have had it.
 
Of course, if he falls into the bullpen with the ball, isn't it still a home run anyway?
 I don't think you can assume that if Hunter got a glove on it he would have completed the catch.  He hit the bullpen wall pretty hard, I think there would have been a good possibility that he would have dropped the ball on impact or during the flip.
 

KillerBs

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if we assume all the play-off games are 50-50 propositions, on a strict World Series championship probability added basis, last night's slam clearly surpasses the 2004 Game 4 winner, which acc. to bbref, clocks in at +27 WPA, getting us from 0% chance to a 6.1% chance for the World Series win...0.27 x 6.1 == WSPA of 1.6% or so. 
 
If my rough calculations are right, last night, Ortiz's HR contributed 45% of our movement from 9.4% to 25% chance of winning the world series, or 7% increase in our WS odds, in one swing of the bat.
 
On an emotional basis, given "the curse," the Yankees, and other context, I will concede the point.
 

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would it have been a reviewable "boundary play," such that the umps could look at a replay and see if it came out of his golve when he slammed into earth?
 

doc

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Prodigal Sox said:
 I don't think you can assume that if Hunter got a glove on it he would have completed the catch.  He hit the bullpen wall pretty hard, I think there would have been a good possibility that he would have dropped the ball on impact or during the flip.
I think the victory cop would have tasered him at that point
 

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joe dokes said:
would it have been a reviewable "boundary play," such that the umps could look at a replay and see if it came out of his golve when he slammed into earth?
Was there a reply?  Fox showed several different angles of the play but I don't recall them showing one where you could see him hitting the ground.
 

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doc said:
I think the victory cop would have tasered him at that point
 
If he's falling into the stands, then as I understand the rules the fans aren't allowed to interfere while he's on the field of play but are the moment it crosses into "their" territory.  How about Sox players in uniform in the bullpen?  Can one of them play free safety?  And if so, can we re-sign Julian Tavarez as a bullpen catcher or something?
 

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JimBoSox9 said:
I can't honestly conceive of a scenario that would top '04 game 4. Those of us who were present must hold the line as time dilutes public perception of those events.
 
Completely agree---there have been some amazing moments since then...and none of them are even in the same tier as that game.  The feeling when Millar walked---then the steal---the hit.  Then the interminable twists and turns before Papi ended it....it is in a class all its own just as a game.  When you add in the contextual drama ('1918', Sox/Yankees, the start of 0-3 comeback) it is so high a bar it is very difficult to imagine it ever being matched.
 

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KillerBs said:
if we assume all the play-off games are 50-50 propositions, on a strict World Series championship probability added basis, last night's slam clearly surpasses the 2004 Game 4 winner, which acc. to bbref, clocks in at +27 WPA, getting us from 0% chance to a 6.1% chance for the World Series win...0.27 x 6.1 == WSPA of 1.6% or so. 
 
If my rough calculations are right, last night, Ortiz's HR contributed 45% of our movement from 9.4% to 25% chance of winning the world series, or 7% increase in our WS odds, in one swing of the bat.
 
On an emotional basis, given "the curse," the Yankees, and other context, I will concede the point.
 
I don't have the spreadsheet and data handy to do the math, but it's not really right to say that down 0-3 there's a 50/50 shot each game because you need to win 4 in a row.  So, your odds of winning game 7 are much lower at the start (e.g. Ortiz' game 4 hit, or Mueller's if one prefers) than 50/50 because you need to win the 'coin flip' three times before you even get there.  Thus, the impact of raising the game 4 WPA flows through in a much larger way than winning last night's game would, I believe.
 

KillerBs

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PedroKsBambino said:
 
Completely agree---there have been some amazing moments since then...and none of them are even in the same tier as that game.  The feeling when Millar walked---then the steal---the hit.  Then the interminable twists and turns before Papi ended it....it is in a class all its own just as a game.  When you add in the contextual drama ('1918', Sox/Yankees, the start of 0-3 comeback) it is so high a bar it is very difficult to imagine it ever being matched.
 
Ditto. I think I came close to crying that night. 
 
For the heck of it, here is the rule on fan interference.
 
3.16
When there is spectator interference with any thrown or batted ball, the ball shall be dead at the moment of interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as in his opinion will nullify the act of interference.
APPROVED RULING: If spectator interference clearly prevents a fielder from catching a fly ball, the umpire shall declare the batter out.
Rule 3.16 Comment: There is a difference between a ball which has been thrown or batted into the stands, touching a spectator thereby being out of play even though it rebounds onto the field and a spectator going onto the field or reaching over, under or through a barrier and touching a ball in play or touching or otherwise interfering with a player. In the latter case it is clearly intentional and shall be dealt with as intentional interference as in Rule 3.15. Batter and runners shall be placed where in the umpires judgment they would have been had the interference not occurred.
No interference shall be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. However, should a spectator reach out on the playing field side of such fence, railing or rope, and plainly prevent the fielder from catching the ball, then the batsman should be called out for the spectators interference. Example: Runner on third base, one out and a batter hits a fly ball deep to the outfield (fair or foul). Spectator clearly interferes with the outfielder attempting to catch the fly ball. Umpire calls the batter out for spectator interference. Ball is dead at the time of the call. Umpire decides that because of the distance the ball was hit, the runner on third base would have scored after the catch if the fielder had caught the ball which was interfered with, therefore, the runner is permitted to score. This might not be the case if such fly ball was interfered with a short distance from home plate.

 
___
 
Is it just me or is 3.16 inherently ambigous. Is it any "spectator interference with any... batted ball" (ie when the fielder is not reaching over the fence etc) which is to be called, Or, must the spectator "clearly prevent a fielder from catchjng the ball", a very different standard. The Approved Ruling seems to repeat the contradiction, and also complicates matters with a reference to intention.
 
In any event, some justice here perhaps, given the Tigers' fans role in denying Reddick a chance at making a circus catch in Game 4 of the ALDS.  
 

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For the record the "catch a ball then fall into the fenway bullpen" has happened before - and ruled an out immediately
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lTsDrMeF-I
 

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terrisus said:
 
Over-ran it just a little bit, and had to reach backwards to try to get it.
If he hadn't over-ran it, he might have had it.
 
Of course, if he falls into the bullpen with the ball, isn't it still a home run anyway?
Hunter over-running it helped him miss it. I'm reminded of Dewey's recollection of catching Joe Morgan's ball- he said 9999 times out of 10,000 when a ball is hit like that into right field, it tails towards the foul pole, but Morgan's didn't, but Dewey said he threw up his glove and caught it anyway. Tizzle's ball clearly tailed a little to right, and Hunter misjudged it enough, over running it a bit, to miss it by a bit more.
 
Although in fairness to Hunter, that was a low line shot, and he had about zero time to think about it, I'm sure. The fact he got near it is a testament to his ability.
 

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JimBoSox9 said:
I can't honestly conceive of a scenario that would top '04 game 4. Those of us who were present must hold the line as time dilutes public perception of those events.
 
I can only think of one scenario that measures up to '04 Game 4.  And that would be '04 Game 5.
 

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cannonball 1729 said:
 
I can only think of one scenario that measures up to '04 Game 4.  And that would be '04 Game 5.
I was at game 4 and remember thinking as game 5 ended that it was even better than game 4.  Perhaps it was in part because, even after game 4, I did not think that the Sox had a chance.  After game 5, I did.
 

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glasspusher said:
Although in fairness to Hunter, that was a low line shot, and he had about zero time to think about it, I'm sure. The fact he got near it is a testament to his ability.
 
I haven't seen a video that shows clearly just how near Hunter game to catching the ball.  I keep thinking that the ball was a couple of feet too deep into the pen by the time it descended to the height of Torii's glove, and that he really had no chance to catch it.  But the camera angles that I have seen don't have the right perspective to see whether that is correct or not.  The bullpen catcher did catch the ball apparently without moving forward, so that is some clue.  Have any of you seen photos that show clearly how deep into the pen the ball was when Torii was at the top of his leap?
 

BrunanskysSlide

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Messing around with bRef's index.
 
Only 4 players have 10 or more hits in the 7th inning or beyond with RISP in the post-season:
 
Bernie Williams (15), Posada (14), David Justice (11) and Ortiz (11)
 
3 of those players played in at least 112 games and at least 470 PAs...Ortiz has played in 72 with 315 plate appearances. 
 
M

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KillerBs said:
Papi's biggest post season HR ever? And is that saying something. One could debate it with the walk off in the 12th in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. But 45% WPA, is tough to beat.
 
What's the maximum WPA possible for a batter in a single play?  Down by 3, bottom of the 9th, 2 out, bases loaded... what are you at for win probability then?
 
Also,
 

PedroKsBambino said:
Completely agree---there have been some amazing moments since then...and none of them are even in the same tier as that game.  The feeling when Millar walked---then the steal---the hit.  Then the interminable twists and turns before Papi ended it....it is in a class all its own just as a game.  When you add in the contextual drama ('1918', Sox/Yankees, the start of 0-3 comeback) it is so high a bar it is very difficult to imagine it ever being matched.
 
Like the others who mentioned it, I've always felt Game 4's drama was surpassed the very next night, by ALCS Game 5.  Although the Sox tied it in the 8th rather than the 9th, and Rivera didn't blow it in a clean inning but instead merely failed to bail out Tom Gordon, I think there was just so much more action in Game 5, and edge-of-your-seat tension.  Game 4's two top moments are far more iconic than anything from Game 5, though, I'll give you that.
 
The game-winning hits in both of them had one thing in common, though.
 

keninten

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
 
The whole sequence is just remarkable.  Ortiz sitting on the first pitch, Benoit missing by just a little, Hunter nearly making yet another of his HR-saving catches (as a side note, imagine what sort of tongue bath McBuck would be giving Torii for the rest of this series had he snagged it) and then the bullpen cop.  
 
I know this is an Ortiz thread but  Steven Horgan needs some love here too.    If the Sox win the ALCS, this image will almost certainly be iconic.  Hell, I want a t-shirt.
 
Love the beard
 

TFisNEXT

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canyoubelieveit said:
Hold on, that can't be right.  I can think of 6 for Ortiz off the top of my head:
 
1.  The walkoff homerun against the Angels (Jarrod Washburn)
2.  A basehit to put the Sox up 3-2 against the Yankees in game 4 of the 2004 ALCS (El Duque)
3.  The walkoff homerun against Quantrill in game 4
4.  The walkoff hit against Loaiza in game 5
5.  The homerun against Kevin Brown in the first inning of game 7
6.  Last night's grand slam
 
 
As someone else already said, Ede's column was talking 8th inning or later. But obviously Papi has had some other huge hits in the playoffs of which some of them you list above. Some others are his HR off Tom Gordon in the bottom 8th in 2004 ALCS game 5 which closed the Yankee lead to 4-3 (the Sox tied it later in the inning of course).
 
Another hit which is largely forgotten but at the time was pretty big was his 2 run triple in game 1 of the 2004 ALCS in the 7th inning. I believe it closed the lead to 8-7 when the Yankees had led 8-0 an inning earlier. That triple missed being a game-tying HR by a foot or two.The Sox went on to strand him at 3rd and lose anyway, so the hit isn't really remembered as "clutch" but at the time it certainly was.
 
He also hit the 3-run HR in game 5 of the 2008 ALCS with 2 outs which started the big comeback in the 7th inning.
 
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glasspusher said:
Hunter over-running it helped him miss it. I'm reminded of Dewey's recollection of catching Joe Morgan's ball- he said 9999 times out of 10,000 when a ball is hit like that into right field, it tails towards the foul pole, but Morgan's didn't, but Dewey said he threw up his glove and caught it anyway. Tizzle's ball clearly tailed a little to right, and Hunter misjudged it enough, over running it a bit, to miss it by a bit more.
 
Although in fairness to Hunter, that was a low line shot, and he had about zero time to think about it, I'm sure. The fact he got near it is a testament to his ability.
 
[Edit: read other people's posts thoroughly before posting so that you don't repeat what they say!]
 

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canyoubelieveit said:
Hold on, that can't be right.  I can think of 6 for Ortiz off the top of my head:
 
1.  The walkoff homerun against the Angels (Jarrod Washburn)
2.  A basehit to put the Sox up 3-2 against the Yankees in game 4 of the 2004 ALCS (El Duque)
3.  The walkoff homerun against Quantrill in game 4
4.  The walkoff hit against Loaiza in game 5
5.  The homerun against Kevin Brown in the first inning of game 7
6.  Last night's grand slam
 
Take out those 2 which were before the 8th and add the 2003 ALDS game 4 2-run double against Foulke and the A's that put the Sox ahead 5-4 for good.  That makes 5.  It still feels like there was at least one more... I remember that he had a late inning double off the monster in 2003 against the A's (I think) that was really clutch.  Searching BB-ref, though, I can't find it.  I remember it because when Grady was asked after the game what he told Ortiz before heading on deck, Grady said, "Hit the Monster". 
 
Any help?  It's driving me crazy... could've been a regular season game. 
 

m0ckduck

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David Ortiz, Elder Orator
 
"We call Big Papi 'Cooperstown,'" starter Clay Buchholz said. "Whatever he says, everybody listens."
 
Where did Ortiz learn to orate like that?
"Bill Clinton, he makes a lot of money making speeches," Ortiz said. "And he changes a lot of lives with his speeches. I watch him. I learn. If you can get people to listen, they will react."
 
"I couldn't understand a thing he said,'' cracked Pedroia.
 

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On Facebook friend referred to Ortiz as the new "Mr. October", to which her Yankee friend replied "oh, please".
 
So I took the liberty of posting a comparision between him and Reggie Jackson in the postseason.
 

 
Edit: These numbers are likely behind two or three days at this point.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Hank Scorpio said:
On Facebook friend referred to Ortiz as the new "Mr. October", to which her Yankee friend replied "oh, please".
 
So I took the liberty of posting a comparision between him and Reggie Jackson in the postseason.
 

 
Edit: These numbers are likely behind two or three days at this point.
Wow.  Pretty uncanny.  Papi's walks are the only major difference.
 

CoRP

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I just presented this to a Yankee fan in my office. His response? "Yeah, but has Ortiz ever hit three in one game??" 
 
My response, "I'll take the three Ortiz walk-offs to Reggie's zero."