Conference Realignment Thread

[Awesome Fossum]

How current is that Georgetown information? As of 2010, the Verizon Center is owned by Ted Leonsis, who is on Georgetown's Board of Directors. Maybe they are still working off an older arrangement, but I would be surprised if Leonsis didn't give Georgetown a school-friendly deal.

 

[mabrowndog]

Scratch St. Louis (not a BE member yet) and add Creighton, which rents the CenturyLink Center in downtown Omaha. They've been in the top 30 nationally in average home attendance since moving there 9 years ago, and were 6th last year (16,665). They may well bust that record this season, as they had 5 of the 8 largest crowds in arena history (all at least 17.7k). I doubt they're losing money by playing there.
 
FWIW, Marquette ranked 16th last season (15,138) and 11th in 2010-11 (15,586). I'd be just as surprised if they're running a loss.
 
The primary drawback of not having a school-owned venue isn't having to pay rent. It's not having full control of various Tier 3 revenue streams such as concessions, advertising, signage, sponsorships, premium seating, naming rights, etc.

 

[Orel Miraculous]

For the life of me, I can't find a source for the $30,000 loss.  I know I've read it on the internet somewhere, but feel free to take it with an internet-sized grain of salt.  Here's a chart from 2010 that isolates basketball revenue and expenses, though.  It shows that the basketball programs of Marquette (3.1M), GTown (2.3M), PC (1.4M), and Nova (1.1) made a profit; Seton Hall, St. John's and DePaul did not.
 
Now, a couple of things about these numbers:
 
First, men's college basketball subsidized all other sports at these schools.  We all know that nearly every athletic department in the country operates in the red, but here we see just how deep in the red these schools may be.  $3 million doesn't go very far in institutions of higher education these days.
 
Second, while its impossible to isolate what impact renting an NBA arena has on these numbers, we can get an idea by looking at other institutions that don't.  in 2010, Dayton basketball made a profit of $5.6 million.  That would've easily placed them at the the top of the C7 revenue table, despite the fact that they played in a smaller conference with a MUCH smaller TV deal.  Xavier made $4.8M that year; UNLV, $4.5M; Texas Southern, $1.2M; Missouri State, $1.9M; Nevada-Reno, $1.9M; Gonzaga, $1M.  Those are just a handful of schools that are in a better financial situation than much of the C7, despite not playing what most would consider to be "big time" college basketball (and there are plenty more--Coppin State, Delaware State, Gardner Webb, etc).
 
And finally, the Big East that season featured, Cincinnati, UConn, Louisville, Notre Dame, Pitt, Syracuse, and West Virginia-schools with big fan bases that fill arenas and bring in money, and that won't be visiting many new Big East arenas any time soon.  At one point in that season, the conference put 7 teams in the AP top 25.  Of those 7, only GTown and Nova will be a part of the new Big East.
 
The big question we've all been asking is how much of the C7 basketball revenue was due to competing against those teams, and without them, exactly how far is the C7 going to fall?  Given the dearth of on-campus facilities in the new Big East, I think we'll see most of those schools struggle to meet expenses.  They'll be forced to downgrade their athletic programs, and in 15 years or so they're might not be any difference between the new Big East and the Atlantic 10 (the two conferences are already much more similar than the C7 would ever admit).

 

[TomRicardo]

For the life of me, I can't find a source for the $30,000 loss.  I know I've read it on the internet somewhere, but feel free to take it with an internet-sized grain of salt.  Here's a chart from 2010 that isolates basketball revenue and expenses, though.  It shows that the basketball programs of Marquette (3.1M), GTown (2.3M), PC (1.4M), and Nova (1.1) made a profit; Seton Hall, St. John's and DePaul did not.
 
Now, a couple of things about these numbers:
 
First, men's college basketball subsidized all other sports at these schools.  We all know that nearly every athletic department in the country operates in the red, but here we see just how deep in the red these schools may be.  $3 million doesn't go very far in institutions of higher education these days.
 
Second, while its impossible to isolate what impact renting an NBA arena has on these numbers, we can get an idea by looking at other institutions that don't.  in 2010, Dayton basketball made a profit of $5.6 million.  That would've easily placed them at the the top of the C7 revenue table, despite the fact that they played in a smaller conference with a MUCH smaller TV deal.  Xavier made $4.8M that year; UNLV, $4.5M; Texas Southern, $1.2M; Missouri State, $1.9M; Nevada-Reno, $1.9M; Gonzaga, $1M.  Those are just a handful of schools that are in a better financial situation than much of the C7, despite not playing what most would consider to be "big time" college basketball (and there are plenty more--Coppin State, Delaware State, Gardner Webb, etc).
 
And finally, the Big East that season featured, Cincinnati, UConn, Louisville, Notre Dame, Pitt, Syracuse, and West Virginia-schools with big fan bases that fill arenas and bring in money, and that won't be visiting many new Big East arenas any time soon.  At one point in that season, the conference put 7 teams in the AP top 25.  Of those 7, only GTown and Nova will be a part of the new Big East.
 
The big question we've all been asking is how much of the C7 basketball revenue was due to competing against those teams, and without them, exactly how far is the C7 going to fall?  Given the dearth of on-campus facilities in the new Big East, I think we'll see most of those schools struggle to meet expenses.  They'll be forced to downgrade their athletic programs, and in 15 years or so they're might not be any difference between the new Big East and the Atlantic 10 (the two conferences are already much more similar than the C7 would ever admit).

I am really confused how a larger television contract and a bigger percent of NCAA money = less revenue and will this conference in 15 years.

You have no actual evidence that of said $300,000 loss. Then you pull up a chart then argue something that isn't on the chart your posted (not a single Big East Team lost money on that Forbes chart).

Your big question isn't really a question. Facilities don't drive revenue, television does.

They aren't really similar to A-10 as teams are running out of the A-10 to the Big East.

 

[tims4wins]

Old Big East has to have a new name by May 2
 
I think we should get some nominations (bolded, of course), and then run a poll

 

[bsj]

I heard Big America

 

[Dan Murfman]

Old Big East has to have a new name by May 2
 
I think we should get some nominations (bolded, of course), and then run a poll

Why do you even care?

 

[tims4wins]

I dunno, it's interesting

 

[Dan Murfman]

I dunno, it's interesting

my team is in the conference and I'm not interested.

 

[mabrowndog]

Second, while its impossible to isolate what impact renting an NBA arena has on these numbers, we can get an idea by looking at other institutions that don't.  in 2010, Dayton basketball made a profit of $5.6 million.  That would've easily placed them at the the top of the C7 revenue table, despite the fact that they played in a smaller conference with a MUCH smaller TV deal. 

 
Dayton does a lot of things right. They're heavily focused on corporate sponsorships, they're proactive with ticket sales and community outreach, they've arranged to have about 15 Tier 3 games a year aired on regional FOX Sports outlets (keeping all the revenue thereof without sharing it among conference members), and they just signed a new radio deal last year.
 
But a nice chunk of their profit comes from the lovely entitlement the NCAA sends their way every year as host institution for the First Four games, They've been hosting the play-in games ever since the tournament expanded in 2001, plus they're a regular host for 1st & 2nd round games. More NCAA tournament games have been played in Dayton (101) than in any other venue. They hosted 10 there this year alone. I don't have a precise figure on what they bring in, but I'm sure it ain't chump change.

 

[mabrowndog]

With those departures and College of Charleston (Colonial), Socon will be down to seven football schools and nine basketball.  Speculation is that they'll go after Mercer, Kennesaw St., East Tennessee State, or VMI to help refill the ranks.

 
A big step yesterday towards re-establishing the Bucs program:
 

 After a near 10-year absence from the gridiron, ETSU administrators have the means to start a new football program now that a $125 per student athletic fee was approved at the quarterly meeting of the Tennessee Board of Regents Friday. TBR governs ETSU.
 
This fee is necessary to start a football program because it would generate about $2.5 million this next academic year for the program. Each year after that, the fee would provide about $2.8 million to support football.
 
An estimate for expenses for a football team would be just under $4.9 million per year by 2018-19, according to a pro forma ETSU released earlier this month. Expenses not covered by the proposed fee would be covered by NCAA scholarship fee distributions, game guarantees, marketing/promotions contracts, radio contracts, concessions, merchandise and fundraising.

 
But... it's not going to happen overnight.
 

President Brian Noland, who emphasized that there will be no football at the university next fall, just that the establishment of a football team has been recommended.
 
“As I’ve said on a number of occasions: We have no helmets, we have no shoulder pads, we have no tackling sleds, we have no field and we have no practice facility,” Noland said. “So this is starting something rather than restoring something.”

 
Also...
 

Noland said it would cost around $200,000 to exit the Atlantic Sun Conference.

 

[Pesky Pole]

Old Big East has to have a new name by May 2
 
I think we should get some nominations (bolded, of course), and then run a poll

How about the PRIME conference (PleaseRescueME)? The extra I is invisible, just like the conference.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I remember going up to the dome at ETSU to play them in football.  That place was an absolute dump.  They definitely need a new field.

 

[Marbleheader]

The whole area there is a dump. There's a bunch of crappy mini malls teeming with payday loan shops, some salmonella infested restaurants, and the stadium and college are in the midst of it. Then again, that's East Tennessee. Beautiful scenic countryside or dumps, there's not much in between.

 

[DJnVa]

WKU to CUSA:  http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/western-kentucky-will-join-conference-usa

 

[OCST]

Old Big East has to have a new name by May 2
 
I think we should get some nominations (bolded, of course), and then run a poll

 
Metro Conference 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[mabrowndog]

WKU to CUSA:  http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/western-kentucky-will-join-conference-usa

 
I found this snippet far more interesting:
 

ESPN also reported that James Madison University is among the candidates to replace the Hilltoppers in the Sun Belt.
 
JMU officials have declined comment on reports that they might leave the Colonial Athletic Association. Last week, the university announced it had hired Carr Sports Consulting to establish a long-term comprehensive plan for athletics.
 
ODU officials, including football coach Bobby Wilder, have made no secret of their desire that JMU follow them into C-USA. Sources said ODU is lobbying C-USA officials to offer membership if the Dukes decide to move up to the Football Bowl Subdivision.

 

[Infield Infidel]

WKU to CUSA:  http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/western-kentucky-will-join-conference-usa

 
Didn't see that one coming. I figured they would have been more interested in New Mex st since they have a rivalry with UTEP (80 miles apart), and like Louisiana Tech they come from a better, albeit defunct, conference. Also would have worked better geographically replacing Tulsa
 
Replacing Tulsa (a west div team) with WKU (presumably an east division team) jumbles the conference a bit in 2014/2015, with UAB and Southern Miss going west?
 
East
Charlotte (2015)
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
Marshall
Middle Tennessee St
Old Dominion (2014)
Western Kentucky (2014)
 
West
Alabama Birmingham
Louisiana Tech
North Texas
Rice
Southern Miss
Texas El Paso
Texas San Antonio

 

[8slim]

The looting of the Big East really has done so much damage to all of the non-BCS conferences.  
 
Gun to my head I couldn't name half the membership of any one of them now, save for the MAC.

 

[Captaincoop]

Didn't see that one coming. I figured they would have been more interested in New Mex st since they have a rivalry with UTEP (80 miles apart), and like Louisiana Tech they come from a better, albeit defunct, conference. Also would have worked better geographically replacing Tulsa
 
Replacing Tulsa (a west div team) with WKU (presumably an east division team) jumbles the conference a bit in 2014/2015, with UAB and Southern Miss going west?
 
East
Charlotte (2015)
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
Marshall
Middle Tennessee St
Old Dominion (2014)
Western Kentucky (2014)
 
West
Alabama Birmingham
Louisiana Tech
North Texas
Rice
Southern Miss
Texas El Paso
Texas San Antonio

 
Well, that's a dumpster fire of a conference.   I guess it has no options, but Rice alumni have to be sad to see that institution lumped in with those others.

 

[mabrowndog]

The looting of the Big East really has done so much damage to all of the non-BCS conferences.  
 
Gun to my head I couldn't name half the membership of any one of them now, save for the MAC.

 
I've been doing my damnedest to keep track of everything on a Google Docs spreadsheet. football, basketball & hockey should all be up to date. I've still got some work to do on lacrosse (adding DII, DIII and MSCA leagues) and just got started on baseball.
 
As always, if anyone spots any mistakes or omissions I'd welcome a heads-up either here or via PM. Thanks in advance.

 

[URI]

Rhode Island is staying in the CAA for football

 

[mabrowndog]

Rhode Island is staying in the CAA for football

 
Thanks. I remember seeing last summer that they were reconsidering their move to the NEC, but I never saw anything confirming their reversal. Good to hear.
 
Are you hearing anything about a possible 12th CAA team that would enable them to split into North & South divisions? I've seen message board scuttlebutt about Youngstown State being peeved over the MVC having added 3 Dakotas teams, which leaves the Penguins on an island. (I'm ignoring the fact that this was on a Central CT forum, since they'd have to upgrade their NEC FB program to full-scholarship, not to mention taking on a major stadium/facilities upgrade).

 

[URI]

Heh, we're waiting for UMass to be "my bad"

 

[mabrowndog]

Heh, we're waiting for UMass to be "my bad"

 
Oh, that's definitely coming. Long-term membership in the MAC is clearly untenable. Meanwhile, as the A12/old BE keeps adding southern C-USA teams, that conference becomes (a) more geographically distant from UMass, and (b) a less profitable option for them should they ever be invited to join. And that invitation just gets more and more unlikely with each passing realignment phase.
 
Their only shot at sustaining an FBS program (and it's a pipe dream) would be if all the other northern/eastern FBS teams left outside of the mega-conference chase (UConn, Temple, Navy, Army, Buffalo) band together with UMass and a couple of upgraded FCS programs (JMU & Delaware?) to form their own little 8-team league. I guess they could call it the Snow Belt, since it would mirror the lameness of the Sun Belt.
 
But the minute UConn leaves C-USA for the ACC, it'll kill the above circle-the-wagons option, and UMass will have zero chance of becoming part of C-USA. That will pretty much end their FBS dalliance. Likewise, if JMU joins the Sun Belt soon as rumored, the Snow Belt will remain a fantasy.
 
I do think they'll at least run out the clock on the Gillette deal (through 2016), so a return to the CAA wouldn't happen right away. Meanwhile they'll happily cash all the alumni donations and state funding checks to modify their stadium & facilities, and then slink their way back to FCS as recruits and coaches start abandoning ship.
 
Never more proud to be an alumnus of Mass Aggie.

 

[Dan Murfman]

Exciting news! We have a name for the Old Big East. American Athletic Conference.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9130997/sources-former-big-east-named-american-athletic-conference

 

[OCST]

Exciting news! We have a name for the Old Big East. American Athletic Conference.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9130997/sources-former-big-east-named-american-athletic-conference

 
My God, that sucks.
 
Everything about it sucks.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

It certainly sounds like an AAU ripoff, but I kind of like it. It's different. It's definitely a million times better than American 12, and Great American Conference had too much of a "Conference USA-vibe" for a conference that is already suffering from a Conference USA-vibe.

Not being snarky OilCan: what would you go with?

 

[bsj]

I don't hate it. Not as kitschy as I feared

 

[Captaincoop]

I actually think that's a great name.  Too bad the teams in the conference are all C-USA leftovers.

 

[Infield Infidel]

It isn't awful. I guess that's a compliment. preference was Continental Conference.

 

[Dan Murfman]

It isn't awful. I guess that's a compliment. preference was Continental Conference.

We're first in the phone book!

 

[Captaincoop]

Nope. That's still America East, if my alphabetizing skills are still intact.

 

[8slim]

Great news for UConn, now they'll only have to change one letter on their field when they get into the ACC!

 

[OCST]

It certainly sounds like an AAU ripoff, but I kind of like it. It's different. It's definitely a million times better than American 12, and Great American Conference had too much of a "Conference USA-vibe" for a conference that is already suffering from a Conference USA-vibe.

Not being snarky OilCan: what would you go with?

"The Island of Misfit Toys"
"Twelve Angry Schools"
"Others Receiving Votes"
"The Shunned"

 

[mabrowndog]

"The Island of Misfit Toys"
"Twelve Angry Schools"
"Others Receiving Votes"
"The Shunned"

 
Four at-bats, four walk-off first-pitch grand slams.
 
Well done, sir.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Nope. That's still America East, if my alphabetizing skills are still intact.

 
I don't like it, but it's not the worst bad thing ever. Any time you can copy as the American East, Mid-American, or Conference-USA, you should do it
 
Also, they aren't going to use AAC, you have to say "The American" or "American Athletic." What a mouthful, not punchy at all. Ever notice that every other conference is 2-3 syllables or abbreviated? There's a reason for that - it's easier to say and remember

 

[Dehere]

The conference mascot can be the comic strip character Cathy saying "Aac!!"
 
I actually (aactually?) don't think it's that bad. Can anyone come up with a non-joke name that's better?
 
I like conference names that are a word that implies something rather than a geographic signifier. Ivy League, Patriot League. I think Horizon League is brilliant; it suggests schools and teams that have their best days in front of them. It would have been bolder for them to try to go this route but it's a hard thing to pull off. The downside of trying to come up with a name like this is that you end up with the Legends and Leaders divisions.

 

[JMDurron]

Could make some networking slogans - connect with the Aac ("ack")! 

 

[mabrowndog]

I actually (aactually?) don't think it's that bad. Can anyone come up with a non-joke name that's better?

 
Victory League

 

[8slim]

Coming up with something decent is probably impossible.  They can't use geography because there's no geographic sense to the league (and really all leagues at this point).  Can't use a number because the membership will fluctuate in perpetuity (Big Ten has 14 teams, Big XII has 10 teams, park in a driveway, drive on a parkway!).  Can't even use adjectives like Big or Great because there's nothing particularly big or great about it.
 
Honestly they should have just sold the naming rights.  A 10-year deal for the Verizon Conference or Chevrolet League would be just as nonsensical, and they'd at least make some money off that.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

Conference Clayton Sydney Jugglesh Muhammed Lonnie

 

[JimD]

They can call it whatever they want - the league is already an afterthought and it's only going to get worse when UConn inevitably departs.  The Catholic 7/New Big East already has a much higher profile than this motley collection.

 

[Dan Murfman]

They can call it whatever they want - the league is already an afterthought and it's only going to get worse when UConn inevitably departs.  The Catholic 7/New Big East already has a much higher profile than this motley collection.

UConn has a better chance to play in the Big East than any of the power conferences. So we are in for the long haul.

 

[DukeSox]

UConn is the new Memphis.

 

[Dan Murfman]

UConn is the new Memphis.

It is what it is. But when I feel down I go back and read you crying like a little bitch about the refs in the game thread from 2004 semis.

 

[DukeSox]

It's not a bad thing -- Memphis is good every year, get some schedule flexibility, wins their league, etc.

 

[Dan Murfman]

It's not a bad thing -- Memphis is good every year, get some schedule flexibility, wins their league, etc.

Of course it's a bad thing. The schedule will suck. I used to go to up to 5 road games a year. Now the only one I will be able to get to is Temple. MSG every March all gone.

 

[tims4wins]

It is what it is. But when I feel down I go back and read you crying like a little bitch about the refs in the game thread from 2004 semis.

 
That game was far more about coach K letting BOTH Shelden Williams and Shavlik Randolph pick up their 3rd fouls late in the first half while Duke had a nice ~8 point working margin. I was at that game and vividly remember being so angry that he let them pick those fouls up. It would have been better to go into halftime tied and with those guys having 2 fouls each than to go in up by 8 with those guys having 3 fouls each. ARGH.

 

[DukeSox]

I blame Michael Thompson transferring.  And a skinny freshman luol deng letting okafor rip the ball out of his arms on a near game-sealing rebound.