Conference Realignment Thread

Dan Murfman

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tims4wins said:
 
That game was far more about coach K letting BOTH Shelden Williams and Shavlik Randolph pick up their 3rd fouls late in the first half while Duke had a nice ~8 point working margin. I was at that game and vividly remember being so angry that he let them pick those fouls up. It would have been better to go into halftime tied and with those guys having 2 fouls each than to go in up by 8 with those guys having 3 fouls each. ARGH.
A nice little diversion and Jim Calhoun agrees with you. He sat Okafor with his 2 fouls for 17 minutes in the first half.
 

Infield Infidel

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What a great pick up for the A10. Charlotte metro, good tourney rep, McKillop recruits well and doesn't want to leave.

They also don't have unrealistic expectations like UNC Charlotte
 

mabrowndog

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Infield Infidel said:
What a great pick up for the A10. Charlotte metro, good tourney rep, McKillop recruits well and doesn't want to leave.

They also don't have unrealistic expectations like UNC Charlotte
 
Charlotte's decision to join C-USA was driven by their new football program, which debuts in 2015 -- and you're right that their expectations are ill-formed. But their share of FB-driven league TV revenues, even from a middling FB conference like C-USA, will leave the 49ers ahead of the game. Meanwhile despite Davidson's long-time membership in the football-crazy Southern Conference, their FCS football team plays in the non-scholarship Pioneer League, and there are no grand ambitions to upgrade it. So the Wildcats and the A-10 really do seem like a perfect fit for each other.
 
Nice to see Siena is still in the works. It makes too much sense not to happen, though it would give the A-10 an odd number of teams (13). I suppose they could look to add a team like Belmont, which would bring the Nashville market and provide a travel partner for Davidson (albeit a distant one -- it's a 6-hour drive on a good day). But I think that's a long shot. More likely they'd pick the last remaining piece of low-hanging fruit in the SoCon: NC-Greensboro. A long-slumbering basketball program but a perfect travel partner, a great arena, and they don't come with a football & chain.
 
And not to get too far ahead of things, but it wouldn't shock me to see them dip their bucket in the Horizon well again a year from now, assuming St. Louis & Dayton leave for the Big East. Ray McCallum's Detroit Titans are on the rise. They'd bring another strong TV market, and would be more convenient travel-wise for other sports. They could be paired with Wright State, who'd be a plug-and-play replacement in Dayton's market.
 
UMass, URI
Fordham, Siena
St. Bon, Duquesne
Detroit, Wright St
St. Joe's, LaSalle
G. Wash, G. Mason
Richmond, VCU
UNCG, Davidson
 
That's a pretty solid 16-team league. And in the unlikely event UMass ever leaves for a different FBS conference that demands they go all-in on all sports, the A-10 could replace them with Northeastern. 
 

Infield Infidel

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One division is top and bottom heavy; the other has Wisconsin, Nebraska and then a lot of middle. 
 
It's really not that unbalanced, and these things are cyclical. If you look back to when Penn State joined in 1990, there are 23 conference titles*, 14 for the East, and 9 for the West. On first look that's not very balanced
 
BUT that's obviously not including Nebraska's 6 outright Big 8/12 titles, or Maryland's lone outright ACC title, or Rutgers**, well, I guess they won the Big East outright last year(Who knew?). I'm going to take liberty and count those has half titles (since they coincide with Big Ten titles), and it's 15 East, 12 West. Not parity but not way off. 
 
*Each time the Big Ten split the title since 1990, there's been at least one team from each division. If you add the shared titles it's 4 each
**Seriously, how did Big Ten end up with Rutgers instead of Syracuse? 
 
Also Purdue/Indiana is the only protected game. I thought the Brown Jug could be kept guess not.
 

mascho

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I am a Nebraska fan.


Those divisions look just fine to me. ;)


Nebraska's won division titles, sure. Winning a conference championship game for the first time since 1999, that might still be elusive.
Gotta get to the Championship Game to win it, right? Those divisions line up well for that if you ask me.
 

mabrowndog

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You guys have all buried the lede. The biggest news in that article is they're dumping the ridiculous "Leaders" and "Legends" division names, and going with "East" and "West". Hallefuckinglujah.
 

mabrowndog

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Also, the realignment happens in 2014.
 
2016 is when they're moving to a 9-game conference schedule.
 

BigMike

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sachmoney said:
How long until the Big Ten West wins a championship? 10 years? 20 years? Never?
 
Look it is Ohio State' Conference right now, and whatever division they are in is the better division.   The level with which they dominated the conference the past decade is silly,
 
Beyond OSU, look back over the past 20 years and Wisconsin has arguably been the second best program.  Northwestern has gone to a Rose bowls and had a 2 years where they tied for the championship.  Iowa, Illinois, have been to BCS bowls, bowls, even Purdue got a Rose Bowl.   And then you Add in Nebraska which had a few National championships in the 20 year span, and has been good in recent years. 
 
Now maybe Michigan will be back to what they used to be rather than what they have been recently.   Maybe Penn State will become what they used to be many years ago.   Maybe Michigan State will become something more than they have been.  And then the divisions will be lopsided
 
Right now looking at the past 20 years,  they look very fair
 

URI

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BigMike said:
Look it is Ohio State' Conference right now, and whatever division they are in is the better division.   The level with which they dominated the conference the past decade is silly,
 
Beyond OSU, look back over the past 20 years and Wisconsin has arguably been the second best program.  Northwestern has gone to a Rose bowls and had a 2 years where they tied for the championship.  Iowa, Illinois, have been to BCS bowls, bowls, even Purdue got a Rose Bowl.   And then you Add in Nebraska which had a few National championships in the 20 year span, and has been good in recent years. 
 
Now maybe Michigan will be back to what they used to be rather than what they have been recently.   Maybe Penn State will become what they used to be many years ago.   Maybe Michigan State will become something more than they have been.  And then the divisions will be lopsided
 
Right now looking at the past 20 years,  they look very fair
 
Northwestern has in 1949 and 1996.  Brown has been to a Rose Bowl too.
 

BigMike

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URI said:
Northwestern has in 1949 and 1996.  Brown has been to a Rose Bowl too.
 
Northwestern was an awful program for a very long time.   They have been a good program for the past 20 years. They won the league in 95, we co-champs in 96 and 2000. They ended up the second highest ranked behind Ohio St team in the Big Ten last year.   they have had a better program than Michigan State over the past 20 years
 

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BigMike said:
Northwestern was an awful program for a very long time.   They have been a good program for the past 20 years. They won the league in 95, we co-champs in 96 and 2000. They ended up the second highest ranked behind Ohio St team in the Big Ten last year.   they have had a better program than Michigan State over the past 20 years
But, in order to take the next step and address people like URI, don't they have to schedule non-conference opponents who can play, and beat them?  Vanderbilt and Rice don't count, certainly not while Michigan, OSU and MSU are playing Notre Dame, Alabama, Texas and the like. They've played well in bowls, but beating Mississippi State after losing to A&M, Texas Tech and Auburn says they still have work to do.  Cal and Syracuse for 2013 don't do it, when they add Stanford (along with Duke) in 2015, maybe that says something. Unless they plan on winning the Big Ten and then beating USC
 
Of course, given how many feel about realignment generally, there's something to be said for Northwestern, Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt -- who else? Notre Dame might fit here -- scheduling each other as non-conference games to battle for the title of best football school who is unlikely to embarrass alumni with an athletic scandal. (I guess that knocks ND out. Harvard, too)
 

Dan Murfman

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God knows and he know he is the biggest ahole but DukeSox appears to be correct. This can be the end realignment.


Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyESPN 2m
ACC presidents approve Grant of Rights thru 2026-27 sources tell @espn. B1G will have to look elsewhere. 1st reported by @DavidGlennShow
 

BigMike

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Dan Murfman said:
God knows and he know he is the biggest ahole but DukeSox appears to be correct. This can be the end realignment.


Brett McMurphy ‏@McMurphyESPN 2m
ACC presidents approve Grant of Rights thru 2026-27 sources tell @espn. B1G will have to look elsewhere. 1st reported by @DavidGlennShow
 
Good news,  really impressive work by Swofford.   
 
Really a happy day,  the move to the 4 superconferences would have ended college sports for me.
 
Really surprised to see ND also signed up, and is now locked in; although,  not sure what this means relative to their deal.  I suspect they woud only have to forfeit to the ACC, that which they are currently sharing with the ACC
 

8slim

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Infield Infidel said:
One division is top and bottom heavy; the other has Wisconsin, Nebraska and then a lot of middle. 
 
It's really not that unbalanced, and these things are cyclical. If you look back to when Penn State joined in 1990, there are 23 conference titles*, 14 for the East, and 9 for the West. On first look that's not very balanced
 
BUT that's obviously not including Nebraska's 6 outright Big 8/12 titles, or Maryland's lone outright ACC title, or Rutgers**, well, I guess they won the Big East outright last year(Who knew?). I'm going to take liberty and count those has half titles (since they coincide with Big Ten titles), and it's 15 East, 12 West. Not parity but not way off. 
 
*Each time the Big Ten split the title since 1990, there's been at least one team from each division. If you add the shared titles it's 4 each
**Seriously, how did Big Ten end up with Rutgers instead of Syracuse? 
 
Also Purdue/Indiana is the only protected game. I thought the Brown Jug could be kept guess not.
 
 
Since I can never resist kicking Rutgers, they shared the BEFC title last year with Syracuse, Cincinnati and Louisville.  And of course Louisville got the conference's BCS bid.  So no, Rutgers did not win outright.  :)
 

sachmoney

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BigMike said:
Look it is Ohio State' Conference right now, and whatever division they are in is the better division.   The level with which they dominated the conference the past decade is silly,
 
Beyond OSU, look back over the past 20 years and Wisconsin has arguably been the second best program.  Northwestern has gone to a Rose bowls and had a 2 years where they tied for the championship.  Iowa, Illinois, have been to BCS bowls, bowls, even Purdue got a Rose Bowl.   And then you Add in Nebraska which had a few National championships in the 20 year span, and has been good in recent years. 
 
Now maybe Michigan will be back to what they used to be rather than what they have been recently.   Maybe Penn State will become what they used to be many years ago.   Maybe Michigan State will become something more than they have been.  And then the divisions will be lopsided
 
Right now looking at the past 20 years,  they look very fair
Looking back, sure. Looking forward, I'd disagree. I don't really want to have a long winded response, but the disparity in recruiting between Ohio State and Michigan and the rest of the Big Ten is too large to ignore. I just think those two programs have so much momentum that it'll be hard for the other programs to compete.
 
To address the West programs you mentioned, Wisconsin has a new coach with a different philosophy. It'll be interesting to see how that affects them, though I think Anderson is a good coach. Northwestern is probably near the ceiling of that program unless they get better administrative and alumni support (they play in front of road crowds at home and that can't happen). Nebraska is too erratic to tell where they're going to be. I'm not sure how much slack Pelini has left. In a given year, they could play for a championship or finish behind Iowa.
 
Listen, if I'm wrong about this, then that's great. It means that the Big Ten is going to be a better, more competitive conference. It has been great these last few years.
 

WayBackVazquez

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BigMike said:
Look it is Ohio State' Conference right now, and whatever division they are in is the better division.   The level with which they dominated the conference the past decade is silly,
 
Beyond OSU, look back over the past 20 years and Wisconsin has arguably been the second best program.  Northwestern has gone to a Rose bowls and had a 2 years where they tied for the championship.  Iowa, Illinois, have been to BCS bowls, bowls, even Purdue got a Rose Bowl.   And then you Add in Nebraska which had a few National championships in the 20 year span, and has been good in recent years. 
 
Now maybe Michigan will be back to what they used to be rather than what they have been recently.   Maybe Penn State will become what they used to be many years ago.   Maybe Michigan State will become something more than they have been.  And then the divisions will be lopsided
 
Right now looking at the past 20 years,  they look very fair
 
Nonsense.
 
Total Appearances in the Final AP Top 25 in the last 20 seasons:
 
Michigan: 16
Wisconsin: 11
 
National Championships:
Michigan: 1
Wisconsin: 0
 
Bowl Coalition/BCS Wins:
Michigan: 3
Wisconsin: 2
 
Head-to-Head: Michigan 8-6
 

WayBackVazquez

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BigMike said:
Northwestern was an awful program for a very long time.   They have been a good program for the past 20 years. They won the league in 95, we co-champs in 96 and 2000. They ended up the second highest ranked behind Ohio St team in the Big Ten last year.   they have had a better program than Michigan State over the past 20 years
 
Just stop it.
 
Northwestern is 120-121-1 over the past 20 years. MSU is 130-114-1. Northwestern has been ranked in the final AP poll 3 times over that span; MSU 4 times. NU's highest finish was #8; MSU's #7. MSU is 10-6 against NU head-to-head. And NU went 1-9 in bowl games.
 
And since 1997, NU is  95-101 while MSU is 112-86. Northwestern has only been ranked in the top 25 ONCE at the end of the season during that span (last year, #17), while MSU has been FOUR times, three of which were higher than 17 (7, 14, 11).
 

Infield Infidel

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I hadn't thought about it, but competitively, splitting UM/MSU instead of PU/IU would probably have been better
 
Loser: Michigan State 

Many, including me, thought that putting the Spartans in the West made sense to balance out the divisions. But competitive balance wasn't the priority this time around for the Big Ten. So now Michigan State will have to knock heads with Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State every year just in its own division. And the Spartans already have Alabama and Notre Dame on the 2016 schedule, which is shaping up to be a murderer's row. 
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/75700/winners-and-losers-in-big-ten-realignment
 

axx

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Well I don't know how long PSU is going to be able to remain competitive. It may not be as bad as it sounds.
 

WayBackVazquez

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axx said:
Well I don't know how long PSU is going to be able to remain competitive. It may not be as bad as it sounds.
 
They've already gotten through the worst of it, and they went 6-2 in conference. They're the only B10 team other than Mich and OSU with incoming 5-star recruits (and they have two), and they're putting together a very good 2014 recruiting class. Kids will continue to want to play in front of 100,000+ fans, and PSU will continue to be a leading program in the conference.
 

Infield Infidel

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I think this year will be the toughest.  Year one, they could still get by with the players they had that didn't transfer. They didn't lose a scholarship as long as the player stayed.

Year two, guys graduated, and because of the scholarship limit, they can't replace many of them. And they can still lose immediate-eligible transfers, whom they can't replace (they just had a QB transfer).

Basically, anyone who was on the 2012 team, or recruited for 2012, can transfer without sitting a year, at anytime during their PSU career. (I initially thought it was only for the past year). Brutal penalty in tandem with scholarship limits.

Year three, they can start to tell guys that, hey, if you walk-on for three years, maybe redshirt one, you've got a scholly waiting for you.

EDIT: by my count, they graduated 24 seniors after 2012, and had 10 guys transfer last year. They can replace those 34 players with 15 freshmen this season.

Edit 2: they also had five guys decommit last year
 

WayBackVazquez

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Infield Infidel said:
Also, the four-year 65-scholarship limit doesn't even start until next 2014
 
Well, they only have 66 this season anyway. Obviously a large-scale scholarship reduction like this hurts depth and leaves much less room for error in assessing talent, but at least as long as BOB is around, I don't see PSU slipping into the bottom half of the conference. Yes, he's working with only 15 recruits, but when every one of those recruits is a 3-star and up, with a third of those being 4 and 5-star recruits, IMO they'll continue to remain above the Indy, Ill, Minny, Iowa, MD, Purdue scrum.
 

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It'll be interesting. My sense is they'll have least a couple sub .500 seasons in the next six years, but there's not really much precedent for this. The scholarship reduction isn't just a depth issue however - some of the lost scholarships are going to be spots that otherwise would have gone to high end talents.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Strong indications are that Elon will be joining the CAA in 2013 and that Albany will be joining either 2013 or 2014.....
 
I thought Albany to the CAA this fall (along with SBU) was already a done deal
 
Assuming that's the case, Elon's a nice addition and would form a 12-team football league. If they split into divisions:
 
NORTH
Albany
Maine
UNH
URI
Stony Brook
Villanova
 
SOUTH
Delaware
Elon
James Madison
Richmond
Towson
William & Mary
 
For basketball and Olympic sports, they'd be a travel partner for William & Mary in a 10-team league:
 

Charleston - NC Wilmington
Delaware - Drexel
Elon - William & Mary
Hofstra - Northeastern
James Madison - Towson
 

mabrowndog

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RedOctober3829 said:
That report was for football-only.  The rumor for Elon and Albany would be to join for all sports.
 
OK, but that would form an 11-team Olympic sports league. I wonder which non-FB member they'd look to add to balance it out -- or maybe there's actually some smoke in the "JMU to the Sun Belt" rumors.
 
EDIT - On second thought, is Stony Brook joining for football only, or for all sports? If it's the latter, that solves things nicely.
 

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The SoCon will be inviting East Tennessee State, Mercer, and VMI (but not UNC Asheville, the other rumored possibility) to replace defections by Georgia Southern, App State, and College of Charleston.  All three of the incoming schools have or will have football teams (Mercer's inaugural football season is this year), whereas UNCA does not.  ETSU and VMI are both former SoCon members.
 
No further word yet on whether Davidson is actually bolting to the A-10.  The rumor surfaced about three weeks ago, but nothing seems to have happened publicly since then.
 
 

mabrowndog

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cannonball 1729 said:
The SoCon will be inviting East Tennessee State, Mercer, and VMI (but not UNC Asheville, the other rumored possibility) to replace defections by Georgia Southern, App State, and College of Charleston.  All three of the incoming schools have or will have football teams (Mercer's inaugural football season is this year), whereas UNCA does not.  ETSU and VMI are both former SoCon members.
 
No further word yet on whether Davidson is actually bolting to the A-10.  The rumor surfaced about three weeks ago, but nothing seems to have happened publicly since then.
 
Mercer's first FB year was going to be in the Pioneer, a non-scholarship league, while ETSU's inaugural FB year was slated for 2015 as an independent. I doubt their respective timetables for joining the SoCon in that sport can be anything earlier than 2015.
 
Frankly Mercer's the only decent addition of the three. They're closer to Atlanta than GSU was, and their facilities are modern and top-notch. ETSU is a dump, and VMI has sucked for decades in all sports. Not sure these replacements will be sufficient to stem future defections, such as Chattanooga to the OVC.
 
I previously posted here that Davidson and the A-10 seemed like perfect fits for each other, but after thinking about it with some clarity I've reversed my stance. Other than some TV basketball money, I'm not sure what's in it for Davidson. Travel for their other sports will be brutal and expensive (with or without a local partner like UNCG), and it'll be sacrificing much of its regional/cultural relevance as a southern school. Those trips to Olean and Amherst ought to be a blast for the men's & women's soccer, swimming, tennis, and cross-country teams.
 

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mabrowndog said:
OK, but that would form an 11-team Olympic sports league. I wonder which non-FB member they'd look to add to balance it out -- or maybe there's actually some smoke in the "JMU to the Sun Belt" rumors.
 
EDIT - On second thought, is Stony Brook joining for football only, or for all sports? If it's the latter, that solves things nicely.
 
Pretty sure it's football only, but all the articles are 9 month old.  Don't recall a more recent announcement that the Olympic sports are coming.
 

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BigMike

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mabrowndog said:
And the winner of Most Batshit Insane Realignment Rumor Ever is...
 
The Citadel to the Sun Belt!
 
OK, ,  I guess we need some context here.  How is the the most batshit insane rumor ever.   Citadel is a decent program, not great..  So what is so absolutely insane about it.
 
Especially where to be the most batshit insane idea ever you need to beat the Big East that went coast to coast
 

mabrowndog

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BigMike said:
OK, ,  I guess we need some context here.  How is the the most batshit insane rumor ever.   Citadel is a decent program, not great..  So what is so absolutely insane about it.
 
Especially where to be the most batshit insane idea ever you need to beat the Big East that went coast to coast
 
Perhaps you should look up the definition of "decent".
 
Their football team has won two conference championships in its history. Not NCAA titles -- CONFERENCE titles. In 1961 and 1992. Once in the last 51 years. They've made just 3 appearances in the 1-AA/FCS playoffs ('88, '90, '92) and none in the last 2 decades. Since reaching the '92 NCAA quarterfinals, the Bulldogs are 85-136 over 20 seasons, including just 4 years over .500. Prior to last year's 7-4 mark, they'd gone 15-30 in 4 seasons. 
 
In men's basketball, they've won 20 games TWICE in their history. In 1978-79 and 2008-09. Over the last 11 seasons their aggregate record is 109-223 (.328), including EIGHT (8) seasons with at least 20 losses.
 
And this is a school that's going to upgrade to FBS-level football and a more competitive basketball league? Hate to say it, Mike, but there's nothing "decent" about them or this concept. The Citadel has some nice facilities and they get some nice crowds in the Charleston area, but that's about it. Their baseball team competes well at D-1 (Sons of Dallas MacPherson), but they don't need to move to the Sun Belt to amp that up, nor will their program benefit in any way by switching conferences. Cripes, there are at least a dozen FCS schools who'd be better overall fits than The Citadel -- especially for football & basketball. 
 
And yeah, it's a shitload more batshit insane than what the Big East attempted, which was to keep a sinking ship afloat and hold on to its borderline-major status in hopes of earning a more lucrative TV deal by aligning with a perennial BCS bowl contender. And by the way, what the Sun Belt has done already is far worse geographically and/or competitively -- adding the likes of Idaho and New Mexico State.
 

BigMike

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I guess my view of Citadel must be tied to living in the South during their heyday apparently  Having been down in Atlanta in the late 80s early 90s.
 
I just view the Sunbelt as such an insignificant conference that anything that happens down there just doesn't rate more than a tiny blip on the radar