Celtics vs Heat ECF Redux Discussion Thread

BaseballJones

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I don’t know how to post a tweet. But in this article here if you scroll down you’ll see a slow mo replay of the last Butler play.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/breaking-down-the-controversial-final-few-seconds-of-the-celtics-thrilling-game-6-win-over-heat/amp/

You see clearly that Butler is dribbling and tries to gather the ball to go up for a shot but then loses it, touching it with both hands, and the ball goes back down to the floor, whereupon he picks it up and tries to shoot, but gets hacked by Al. He didn’t “dribble one or two more times” after touching it with both hands as has been suggested.

By rule, still a double dribble but I can see how they let that go.
 

lars10

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Its a good thing Miami didn't get to 104 ;)

The Celtics going 0-6 after being up 10pts is pretty obvious. You can't go ISO/passive against a ZONE, which Spoelstra knows and does against Boston every time we get a lead. People think you can just shoot 3s over a ZONE with out penetration and that's patently false (you & I know this after watching Cuse for decades)
They took it to the hole on at least two possessions though.. didn’t they? Bam fouled Tatum with body on one that wasn’t called.. it’s something he’s been getting away with pretty regularly this series.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah.. Miami had basically zero offense other than getting every whistle for most of the fourth quarter.. and it’s not like any of them were obvious fouls.. other than the three.. most of the fouls Butler created most of the contact.. including the three.

it’s been decades of this… where an opponent gets an ungodly whistle.. LeBron, Wade, Gianni’s, Butler, Harden ..even the lakers in the finals.. with Boston basically having Tatum who gets anywhere close to that kind of whistle?
The one that really rankled me was when Butler threw himself into Al and got the call. Al was basically just standing there and Butler hurled himself into Horford, bounced off, fell to the ground, and got the call.
 

lars10

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The one that really rankled me was when Butler threw himself into Al and got the call. Al was basically just standing there and Butler hurled himself into Horford, bounced off, fell to the ground, and got the call.
There was another against Tatum where he maybe got touched and fell below the rim.. he creates a ton of contact and gets every whistle..

what’s frustrating about the double dribble was that it was after he’d already got six calls.
 

BaseballJones

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There was another against Tatum where he maybe got touched and fell below the rim.. he creates a ton of contact and gets every whistle..

what’s frustrating about the double dribble was that it was after he’d already got six calls.
Yeah. The Tatum one bothered me too because it came RIGHT AFTER Tatum did NOT get the call after Bam hit him with the body (and clearly so). So Tatum doesn't get the call on one end, then immediately Butler gets the call against Tatum on the other end. No wonder he was so frustrated.
 

BaseballJones

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The Celtics going 0-6 after being up 10pts is pretty obvious. You can't go ISO/passive against a ZONE, which Spoelstra knows and does against Boston every time we get a lead. People think you can just shoot 3s over a ZONE with out penetration and that's patently false (you & I know this after watching Cuse for decades)
Yes, which is why I call for Tatum to be at the foul line. They can get it in to him there no problem, and even if the Heat collapse on him, he's a good enough passer to find the open shooter. I know people here are sick of me bringing this up but it's an incredibly easy solution to the zone. Though they got good looks in game 5, the zone stymied Boston again late in game 6. Just run Tatum to that open spot in the zone which is there every time. Drives me bananas.

It's not to say there aren't possible counters, but they involve changing the shape of the zone, which opens up other things.
 

benhogan

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They took it to the hole on at least two possessions though.. didn’t they? Bam fouled Tatum with body on one that wasn’t called.. it’s something he’s been getting away with pretty regularly this series.
Yea, burning clock/passive against the ZONE leads to bad attempts across the board. It's not just 3s. Spo knows this and is one of a 100 reasons why he's great HC

Then again the ZONE leads to giving up offensive boards :)
 

lars10

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I don’t know how to post a tweet. But in this article here if you scroll down you’ll see a slow mo replay of the last Butler play.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/breaking-down-the-controversial-final-few-seconds-of-the-celtics-thrilling-game-6-win-over-heat/amp/

You see clearly that Butler is dribbling and tries to gather the ball to go up for a shot but then loses it, touching it with both hands, and the ball goes back down to the floor, whereupon he picks it up and tries to shoot, but gets hacked by Al. He didn’t “dribble one or two more times” after touching it with both hands as has been suggested.

By rule, still a double dribble but I can see how they let that go.
Ok so I guess I’m wrong about him dribbling..

but nobody else touched the ball.. it’s a double dribble.. and because it wasn’t called he was able to get about four more feet to get a shot off.. where he also jumped forward to make sure he got contact on the three.

they probably thought Al touched it.. but they sure weren’t shy about making that kind of call against the Cs most of the night.
 

benhogan

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Yes, which is why I call for Tatum to be at the foul line. They can get it in to him there no problem, and even if the Heat collapse on him, he's a good enough passer to find the open shooter. I know people here are sick of me bringing this up but it's an incredibly easy solution to the zone. Though they got good looks in game 5, the zone stymied Boston again late in game 6. Just run Tatum to that open spot in the zone which is there every time. Drives me bananas.

It's not to say there aren't possible counters, but they involve changing the shape of the zone, which opens up other things.
This is 110% correct. This small adjustment, with White at the top at the end of games would be better when they want to put games away.
 

lars10

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Yes, which is why I call for Tatum to be at the foul line. They can get it in to him there no problem, and even if the Heat collapse on him, he's a good enough passer to find the open shooter. I know people here are sick of me bringing this up but it's an incredibly easy solution to the zone. Though they got good looks in game 5, the zone stymied Boston again late in game 6. Just run Tatum to that open spot in the zone which is there every time. Drives me bananas.

It's not to say there aren't possible counters, but they involve changing the shape of the zone, which opens up other things.
I was looking at the last night and I’m pretty sure Martin rotated to the free throw line a few times to take away that spot.. probably because of how bad the Cs were shooting from three. Don’t know how many possessions it happened but there were at least a couple times that I feel like they were dropping a man into that spot.
 

TheRooster

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The one that really rankled me was when Butler threw himself into Al and got the call. Al was basically just standing there and Butler hurled himself into Horford, bounced off, fell to the ground, and got the call.
Atrocious and laughable. It is almost as if these refs have never worked a game with certain players or seen film. Butler isn't trying to get a legit shot off in that situation and he should not be rewarded.
 

TrapperAB

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That video brings into full relief something that struck me in the moment but might be forgotten as White’s shot rightfully gains the patina of legend:

If the shot goes off the back rim or pops out in another direction, Tatum stuffs it.

In his post-game news conference, Spolestra said that the ball came out in the one place it could hurt the Heat. He’s wrong. If it comes off the rim anywhere else and Tatum is a rebound dunk hero.
 

NomarsFool

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That play where Lowry spun and drove to the basket seemed awfully close to a travel to my eyes, anyone else?
 

TrapperAB

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What’s aggravating about all of the calls Butler was getting is that he KNEW he was going to get them. His demeanor, his attitude, his facial expressions -- he was leaning into his reputation (and into all of his shots) and the refs were more than willing to comply. It’s infuriation.
 

NomarsFool

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The tech on Bam, was that separate from the goal tend/touching the basket, or was it because of grabbing the rim? I was confused there. If it’s because of grabbing the rim only, that certainly is a harsh penalty- counting the basket and getting a tech.
 

lars10

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What’s aggravating about all of the calls Butler was getting is that he KNEW he was going to get them. His demeanor, his attitude, his facial expressions -- he was leaning into his reputation (and into all of his shots) and the refs were more than willing to comply. It’s infuriation.
It’s the strut to the free throw line that he and LeBron do.. like they somehow deserve all of those calls that pisses me off.
 

lars10

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The tech on Bam, was that separate from the goal tend/touching the basket, or was it because of grabbing the rim? I was confused there. If it’s because of grabbing the rim only, that certainly is a harsh penalty- counting the basket and getting a tech.
I think grabbing the rim is an unsportsmanlike T
 

lars10

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But were any of them not fouls?
At least two?

edit: a defender is allowed position theoretically.. the fact that Jimmy jumped into the defender to create contact makes it questionable as to whether it’s a foul or not. I think by rule it’s actually supposed to be an offensive foul if anything.

the Cs we’re doing their best not to even touch him and he was still getting calls. The one down low against Tatum..Butler just collapsed below the basket with pretty much zero contact.
 

TrapperAB

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It’s the strut to the free throw line that he and LeBron do.. like they somehow deserve all of those calls that pisses me off.
Agreed. I know that most/all stars do the same (Tatum is not immune). But it’s particularly aggravating when the refs bail out a player who is having a horrible shooting night — and who is initiating the contact to get those whistles, knowing he’ll get them.
 

m0ckduck

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I don’t know how to post a tweet. But in this article here if you scroll down you’ll see a slow mo replay of the last Butler play.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/breaking-down-the-controversial-final-few-seconds-of-the-celtics-thrilling-game-6-win-over-heat/amp/

You see clearly that Butler is dribbling and tries to gather the ball to go up for a shot but then loses it, touching it with both hands, and the ball goes back down to the floor, whereupon he picks it up and tries to shoot, but gets hacked by Al. He didn’t “dribble one or two more times” after touching it with both hands as has been suggested.

By rule, still a double dribble but I can see how they let that go.
This is well explained.

The one thing I'd add is that the bobble/double-dribble (however you want to term it) pretty clearly causes a change of speed that allows Butler to accelerate beyond Horford and draw contact with the arm. Horford was step-to-step with the dribbling Butler, but then the moment of dropping the ball and racing to pick it up left Al out of position.
 

BaseballJones

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I don’t blame Butler. He knows he’s going to get those calls, he knows he’s having a crappy shooting night, he knows the team needs him to score. You do what you gotta do. It’s on the refs entirely. They’re the ones allowing this.
 

Beale13

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That video brings into full relief something that struck me in the moment but might be forgotten as White’s shot rightfully gains the patina of legend:

If the shot goes off the back rim or pops out in another direction, Tatum stuffs it.

In his post-game news conference, Spolestra said that the ball came out in the one place it could hurt the Heat. He’s wrong. If it comes off the rim anywhere else and Tatum is a rebound dunk hero.
100%. This angle also makes me feel better about Smart’s shot, it’s a much better look than I thought watching the broadcast. Miami can think they got unlucky with the rebound bounce but we were just as unlucky with the way Smart‘s shot rimmed out.
 

TrapperAB

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I don’t blame Butler. He knows he’s going to get those calls, he knows he’s having a crappy shooting night, he knows the team needs him to score. You do what you gotta do. It’s on the refs entirely. They’re the ones allowing this.
Agreed. When the (shitty) announcing team is waxing poetic about Butler’s “veteran plays,” it’s code for “you’re playing like shit, have no confidence in your shot, but you know you can bait the refs into BS calls.” Butler leaned into those shots, and his narrative, and the refs played their roles to perfection.
 

mikeford

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The Heat's last nine possessions of the game last night:

98-88 Bos, 3:51 left, Butler fouled, makes 2-2 from the line
98-90 Bos, 3:25 left, Butler fouled, makes 1-2 from the line
100-91 Bos, 2:44 left, Vincent makes driving layup
100-93 Bos, 2:04 left, Butler makes 24 foot stepback three pointer
100-96 Bos, 1:31 left, Butler fouled, makes 1-2 from the line
100-97 Bos, 1:24 left, Robinson misses three pointer
101-97 Bos, 0:53 left, Butler makes layup and gets fouled, makes 1-1 from the line
101-100 Bos, 0:21.2 left, Robinson misses three pointer
102-100 Bos, 0.3.0 left, Butler fouled, makes 3-3 from the line

So in their last nine possessions:
- Butler got fouled five times and went 8-10 from the line
- Miami made three field goals (Vincent's layup, Butler's layup, and Butler's stepback three)
- Robinson missed two WIDE OPEN three pointers

Individually, Butler had the ball six times in the last nine possessions:
- one made three pointer (3 points)
- one made layup plus the foul (3 points)
- refs called fouls the other four times, and he made 7-9 from the line on those (7 points)

Butler, thus, scored 13 points on six possessions, never failing to either put the ball in the basket or getting to the line. Every time the Celtics breathed on him down the stretch he got the whistle. Every time. No exceptions.
Jayson Tatum should pay close attention to this. Because there is no reason he cannot do the exact same thing in the 4th of a close game.
 

jmcc5400

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This is well explained.

The one thing I'd add is that the bobble/double-dribble (however you want to term it) pretty clearly causes a change of speed that allows Butler to accelerate beyond Horford and draw contact with the arm. Horford was step-to-step with the dribbling Butler, but then the moment of dropping the ball and racing to pick it up left Al out of position.
The ball is what made contact with Al’s arm. I’ve watched it frame-by-frame like the Zapruder film. I’m convinced there was no foul.
 

Auger34

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Atrocious and laughable. It is almost as if these refs have never worked a game with certain players or seen film. Butler isn't trying to get a legit shot off in that situation and he should not be rewarded.
This is what bothers me so much when Butler and (especially) Lowry get calls. Like these guys grift all of the time, how are the refs not aware of it? Every Jimmy drive is the same thing. He initiates contact and then sprawls to the floor.

What was so disappointing about last nights game is that the first quarter was officiated close to perfectly. They weren’t falling for any of the Heat players jumping onto the ground after driving to the hole. Then as the game went on they kept calling more and more…and more fouls. It got to the point where the game was like rush hour traffic. Start, stop, start, stop, start, stop
 

BaseballJones

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Jayson Tatum should pay close attention to this. Because there is no reason he cannot do the exact same thing in the 4th of a close game.
But late in the game Tatum drove the lane and got totally bodied by Bam, and they didn’t give Tatum the call. Then the very next possession, Butler got a ticky tack call against Tatum.
 

brandonchristensen

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I’m not a basketball fan, but due to association cheer for the Celtics.
Awesome story going right now and I hope it happens.
 

bosockboy

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We have the ultimate (maybe all time) high ceiling, low floor team that has such a massive variance of outcomes that Game 7 is no lock. Long way to go, and hope they have the right guys to get them mentally ready for tomorrow.
 

Auger34

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The tech on Bam, was that separate from the goal tend/touching the basket, or was it because of grabbing the rim? I was confused there. If it’s because of grabbing the rim only, that certainly is a harsh penalty- counting the basket and getting a tech.
I believe grabbing the rim on a live shot like that is automatically a goaltend and a tech.
 

bosockboy

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This is what bothers me so much when Butler and (especially) Lowry get calls. Like these guys grift all of the time, how are the refs not aware of it? Every Jimmy drive is the same thing. He initiates contact and then sprawls to the floor.

What was so disappointing about last nights game is that the first quarter was officiated close to perfectly. They weren’t falling for any of the Heat players jumping onto the ground after driving to the hole. Then as the game went on they kept calling more and more…and more fouls. It got to the point where the game was like rush hour traffic. Start, stop, start, stop, start, stop
They get influenced by the home crowd.
 

m0ckduck

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I believe grabbing the rim on a live shot like that is automatically a goaltend and a tech.
It's kind of a weird rule, right? I don't see why grabbing the rim is worse than any number of infractions that result in either a tech or a basket, but not both. Maybe the idea is that players will try to sneakily alter the shot if this isn't appropriately punished.
 

m0ckduck

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They get influenced by the home crowd.
This too. But the ones who are really good at it also put their own credibility on the line. Guys like Butler, Lowry, Harden, LeBron flop in a way where, if you don't blow the whistle, you're making them look ridiculous for flailing around like a rag doll. It's hard for a ref to summon the conviction to call these guys out in the moment, esp. against a hostile crowd. It's almost like confrontation aversion.

Edit: this is why Tatum doesn't get many of the same calls. The optics of his drives allow refs to swallow the whistle, because it's plausible that good defense could produce such an outcome. The guys who are really good at it leave no such room for interpretation. Incidentally, I think Smart tries to do this, but he doesn't quite have the juice— refs aren't afraid of making him look silly.
 

bosockboy

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This too. But the ones who are really good at it also put their own credibility on the line. Guys like Butler, Lowry, Harden, LeBron flop in a way where, if you don't blow the whistle, you're making them look ridiculous for flailing around like a rag doll. It's hard for a ref to summon the conviction to call these guys out in the moment, esp. against a hostile crowd. It's almost like confrontation aversion.
Yep they are daring them not to call it. Butler was terrible and afraid to shoot for 3.5 quarters then finally just said “fuck it, I give up. I’ll flop into The Finals.”
 

benhogan

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I just re-watched Q4, a few things stood out:

- Marcus Smart's D was hot garbage the entire 4th quarter. Just dreadful. (still battling injuries IMO)

- the JAYs forced long, contested 3s when up 10 several times instead of working for a good shot (after the 3X, CJM wisely called a TO)

- Jaylen Brown with a complete whiff on the box out, after a missed Butler FT.

- White draws 3 Miami fouls in the first 3 minutes of Q4. One of which was a charge call on Butler going to the rim (taking an elbow to the chin).

-White scores 8pts in Q4...He also had 3 blocks, 1 steal, 6 ast/1 TO, while shooting over 40% on 3s over the game (+/- Star)

Boston withstood 4 of their 5 starters having a rough Q4 o_O ....CJM had a very good game


For all you REF experts, Jimmy was launching his body into everyone within 3" of him over the last 6 minutes. Not even close to a natural shooting motion
 

lovegtm

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You're right:
I think they called the hand in the back, because they had to cover their asses. Gutless and shit officiating.




But you know what? I bet Jimmy isn't flying up to Boston right now feeling great that he grifted some fouls. He fucking lost; Cs fucking won. On to game 7, and hopefully a better ref crew.
 

m0ckduck

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- Marcus Smart's D was hot garbage the entire 4th quarter. Just dreadful.
Yes. There was a play halfway through the 4th I remember where he left Duncan Robinson to double Lowry as the latter was dribbling nowhere with almost no time left on the 24. Lowry finds Robinson for an uncontested three to make it 90-86.
 

Justthetippett

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This too. But the ones who are really good at it also put their own credibility on the line. Guys like Butler, Lowry, Harden, LeBron flop in a way where, if you don't blow the whistle, you're making them look ridiculous for flailing around like a rag doll. It's hard for a ref to summon the conviction to call these guys out in the moment, esp. against a hostile crowd. It's almost like confrontation aversion.

Edit: this is why Tatum doesn't get many of the same calls. The optics of his drives allow refs to swallow the whistle, because it's plausible that good defense could produce such an outcome. The guys who are really good at it leave no such room for interpretation. Incidentally, I think Smart tries to do this, but he doesn't quite have the juice— refs aren't afraid of making him look silly.
The rules of the game break down a bit in these situations where the offensive player initiates the contact because the defender has no choice but to react. We got this in the MIL series last year. Jimmy does the same thing. Unless the refs are willing to let plays at out with guys on the floor (which isn't a great product), they end up blowing the whistle.