Celtics Offseason Primer

benhogan

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That article is definitely misstating the conditions which trigger the hard cap. Teams use TPE’s and blow past the apron all the time.

I believe that executive is assuming the Celtics will do a sign-and-trade when discussing the apron, which I agree is unlikely. And a sign and trade is perhaps the easiest way to use the full TPE, so there is a chance some of that $17m goes unused.

EDIT: There are only 2 ways a team can get hard capped at the apron:

1.) They acquire a free agent via a sign-and-trade. This rule is to prevent a large market team (whom presumably would be over the apron) from being able to continually manipulate trade exceptions and acquire marquee free agents from small market teams for minimal return.

2.) They use one of the two salary cap exceptions reserved for teams below the apron: the full MLE, and the biannual. This is to close a loophole that would otherwise allow a team close to the apron to use the full MLE and become a taxpaying team, thereby gaining an advantage over other teams currently above the apron.

There are no other ways to get hard capped. Using a TPE or the taxpayer MLE does not by itself trigger a hard cap. Using a TPE to acquire a free agent via sign-and-trade does trigger a hard cap, but that is due to the use of the sign-and-trade, not the TPE.
thanks...good explanation

Yep, I;m on the Burks train barring something weird coming along, he's a really good player in the right role, and it's a role we need. Plus if people are all hung up on the "get Tatum's friends" train, Tatum is his kid's godfather.

Honestly Burks is poor man's Beal, at a fraction of the price. My guess is NYK think they can get something back for him, or even better can clear out FOurnier and Noel and keep Burks, but as time pushes on I'm hopeful they end up falling back to Burks for a fake 2nd (or 53).
The Knicks have a bevy of guards besides Burks (Kemba, Fournier, Rose, Quickley, Grimes, McBride).

Grimes/Quickley need minutes, so moving Burks makes NYK roster sense

Burks Missouri/Godfather Tatum connection is a good pick up
 

Cesar Crespo

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Quickly browsed this thread so if it was already discussed, my bad. What do people think the chances are of Yam Madar and/or Juhann Begarin making the roster, most likely on 2 way deals?
 

benhogan

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Quickly browsed this thread so if it was already discussed, my bad. What do people think the chances are of Yam Madar and/or Juhann Begarin making the roster, most likely on 2 way deals?
so many moving parts/time until Brad needs to decide on them

I'd expect Summer League and pre-season play before opinions start flying on those two
 

Cellar-Door

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Quickly browsed this thread so if it was already discussed, my bad. What do people think the chances are of Yam Madar and/or Juhann Begarin making the roster, most likely on 2 way deals?
Very low.
Maybe Begarin on a 2-way, but I doubt it.
Madar isn't ready, he took a competition step up and struggled, he needs to show he can hang where he is for a year at least
Begarin is similar, took the step up, his shot went missing.

Neither is likely to ever be a real roster guy for BOS, but if they are it would be because they improved in Europe next year.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Had no idea about the Burks/Tatum connection. Over 40% from 3pt the last two seasons, career 38%. Nice fit and cheap.
 

bigq

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Madar did not look good in SL last year - the game appeared to be too big and too fast for him. I haven’t been following him over the past 12 months and it will interesting to see whether there has been growth/development. He seems to be a long shot to make an NBA roster.
 
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PedrosRedGlove

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https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/25/22996189/a-scouts-view-yam-madar-and-juhann-begarin-boston-celtics

It's from March but Celtics Blog has a decent rundown of Madar and Begarin's years with a European scout. Not much noteworthy, Begarin lost his shot, Madar found his a little more. Neither seems particularly close.

Could Madar have the potential to develop into a 3pt specialist down the road? I know it's FIBA and not even top competition so no idea how relevant these #s are, but he shot 63-155 (.406) in Israel in '20-'21 and 42-102 (.412) last year in Serbia. Seems something to watch at least.
 

Jimbodandy

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https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/25/22996189/a-scouts-view-yam-madar-and-juhann-begarin-boston-celtics

It's from March but Celtics Blog has a decent rundown of Madar and Begarin's years with a European scout. Not much noteworthy, Begarin lost his shot, Madar found his a little more. Neither seems particularly close.

Could Madar have the potential to develop into a 3pt specialist down the road? I know it's FIBA and not even top competition so no idea how relevant these #s are, but he shot 63-155 (.406) in Israel in '20-'21 and 42-102 (.412) last year in Serbia. Seems something to watch at least.
Too small to really be a 3pt specialist imo. If he were a lot taller, then stretch big/wing who does nothing else is something to build on.

He needs to develop an NBA body before it's even a thought. The only reason why Begarin is less of a long shot is that he has one.
 

Cellar-Door

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Too small to really be a 3pt specialist imo. If he were a lot taller, then stretch big/wing who does nothing else is something to build on.

He needs to develop an NBA body before it's even a thought. The only reason why Begarin is less of a long shot is that he has one.
Madar is a hypothetically Pritchard with more true PG skills but even worse on defense. Partizan is a good spot for him to see if he can learn defense and add bulk.
 

sonofgodcf

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The toilet.
I'd be happy if the C's moved on from Grant and Pritchard. They're both fine players, but I thought they were exposed in the last few rounds of the playoffs.

Any chance we could flip those two for Saddiq Bey? I loved his motor against the C's, and he would seem to fit our switchable profile. Or am I taking crazy pills?
 

Cellar-Door

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I'd be happy if the C's moved on from Grant and Pritchard. They're both fine players, but I thought they were exposed in the last few rounds of the playoffs.

Any chance we could flip those two for Saddiq Bey? I loved his motor against the C's, and he would seem to fit our switchable profile. Or am I taking crazy pills?
No chance, DET is building with him as a key piece, they have no role for Pritchard (who probably tops out as an 8th man) and why take Grant who you have to pay soon instead of Bey who has a higher ceiling and an extra year.

Pritchard's trade value is minimal, he's a nice piece for us in that he gives us cheap shooting, but another team will just go find their own cheap shooting if it comes down to actually giving up value for him.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Very low.
Maybe Begarin on a 2-way, but I doubt it.
Madar isn't ready, he took a competition step up and struggled, he needs to show he can hang where he is for a year at least
Begarin is similar, took the step up, his shot went missing.

Neither is likely to ever be a real roster guy for BOS, but if they are it would be because they improved in Europe next year.
I haven’t heard any reports from best writers on Bagarin’s status or if there was an agreement when he was drafted. If his agent was willing to sign an NBA contract (not a two-way) and the team declines then the team holds the players rights for one year. Assuming this is the case the Celtics would surely lock up a roster spot for him next year which is what I’m expecting until I hear otherwise.
 

nighthob

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Quickly browsed this thread so if it was already discussed, my bad. What do people think the chances are of Yam Madar and/or Juhann Begarin making the roster, most likely on 2 way deals?
They really have no need of another third string PG. Begarin has a pretty good shot due to the athleticism.
 

Cellar-Door

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I haven’t heard any reports from best writers on Bagarin’s status or if there was an agreement when he was drafted. If his agent was willing to sign an NBA contract (not a two-way) and the team declines then the team holds the players rights for one year. Assuming this is the case the Celtics would surely lock up a roster spot for him next year which is what I’m expecting until I hear otherwise.
This is not correct btw. If the team withdraws the required tender the player is a free agent immediately.

Begarin however likely never got a required tender. The reason is that a player who is under contract, or intends to be under contract with a team in another league is not eligible for the required tender. Now it is possible that between the draft and signing with Paris again, Begarin submitted in writing the required documents showing he intended to play, the Celtics made the required tender, and then BEGARIN declined it (rolling over his draft rights) after agreeing to be stashed, BUT it's highly unlikely. In all likelihood the team and his agent agreed that he would sign with Paris and roll the draft rights without any tender being made.

Now, it's unclear how long his new Paris deal is, if it is 1 year, he could force a decision (though my guess is he'd take a 2 way if offered it. But it's possible he demands a spot, and he may get it.
Madar has a 3 year deal with Partizan, so unless he buys himself out, he's probably staying there another year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is not correct btw. If the team withdraws the required tender the player is a free agent immediately.

Begarin however likely never got a required tender. The reason is that a player who is under contract, or intends to be under contract with a team in another league is not eligible for the required tender. Now it is possible that between the draft and signing with Paris again, Begarin submitted in writing the required documents showing he intended to play, the Celtics made the required tender, and then BEGARIN declined it (rolling over his draft rights) after agreeing to be stashed, BUT it's highly unlikely. In all likelihood the team and his agent agreed that he would sign with Paris and roll the draft rights without any tender being made.

Now, it's unclear how long his new Paris deal is, if it is 1 year, he could force a decision (though my guess is he'd take a 2 way if offered it. But it's possible he demands a spot, and he may get it.
Madar has a 3 year deal with Partizan, so unless he buys himself out, he's probably staying there another year.
I phrased my post poorly. My assumption was this…..

1. Celtics draft Begarin and get a look-see in SL

2. Celtics don’t offer him standard multi-year deal for 2nd round prospects instead the required tender that they don’t expect him to accept which buys them one year until they make offer or lose his draft rights.

3. Celtics fully expect to sign him to multi-year deal based on what they’ve seen thus far.
 

Cellar-Door

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I phrased my post poorly. My assumption was this…..

1. Celtics draft Begarin and get a look-see in SL

2. Celtics don’t offer him standard multi-year deal for 2nd round prospects instead the required tender that they don’t expect him to accept which buys them one year until they make offer or lose his draft rights.

3. Celtics fully expect to sign him to multi-year deal based on what they’ve seen thus far.
Possible, but that's a lot of supposition, there doesn't seem to be much indication they're ready for a main roster spot yet, and nothing they've done indicates they are planning much for him beyond a second SL look.

The talk after last summer was he'd come back for SL next year and have a chance to make the roster or a 2 way, but no guarantees. We'll see how it goes. My guess is they'd like to offer him the 2 way spot, he'll have to decide if he's willing to take that or if he'll try to force them to either give him a 15 man spot or cut him loose. If he has a really good SL, maybe, otherwise I'm dubious there is a roster spot from an NBA team for a guy who had a disappointing year in his first season at decent competition in Europe. I think he has little real leverage right now.
 

reggiecleveland

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I'd be happy if the C's moved on from Grant and Pritchard. They're both fine players, but I thought they were exposed in the last few rounds of the playoffs.

Any chance we could flip those two for Saddiq Bey? I loved his motor against the C's, and he would seem to fit our switchable profile. Or am I taking crazy pills?
I think they are happy with Grant. He got some big matchups in big moments.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If the Celtics are looking to move into the 1st round at 28 there are a couple older, high-IQ players we could be targeting who can step into a 2nd unit role on a cheap rookie deal for multiple years.

Two guys that come to mind are Christian Braun and David Roddy. The former has a lot of Gordo in him, made a nice leap last season and has the physicals to play right away. I like Braun a lot to make it in this league. The latter could be seen as a guy to replace Grant next year if he’s traded or leaves through FA. A third guy is someone I don’t necessarily like but could see Brad liking his game and that’s Nenbhard who is a big switchable PG.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Karalis in his podcast said there was a rumor the Celtics were looking to get into the first round to draft Tari Eason (whom I know nothing about).
 

tbb345

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Karalis in his podcast said there was a rumor the Celtics were looking to get into the first round to draft Tari Eason (whom I know nothing about).
Interesting. Easons a PF out of LSU who people had going around 9-16 but, according to KOC, he’s apparently one of the names that’s falling down boards
 

benhogan

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If the Celtics are looking to move into the 1st round at 28 there are a couple older, high-IQ players we could be targeting who can step into a 2nd unit role on a cheap rookie deal for multiple years.

Two guys that come to mind are Christian Braun and David Roddy. The former has a lot of Gordo in him, made a nice leap last season and has the physicals to play right away. I like Braun a lot to make it in this league. The latter could be seen as a guy to replace Grant next year if he’s traded or leaves through FA. A third guy is someone I don’t necessarily like but could see Brad liking his game and that’s Nenbhard who is a big switchable PG.
Ayo, Herb Jones, Grimes, and Hyland were all nice "older rookie" pick-ups in the late 1st/2nd round last summer.

Agree that Braun, Roddy, Nembhard seem to fit the mold there. If there is any way Brad could grift up to 20 and get Liddell, then Grant would be wise to get himself an extension.

C's have tons of end-of-roster room. In theory, they could use their TPEs to add a player + a 1st to open up CAP space for a team looking to play in free agency. For example, the Celtics attached draft capital to Baynes and Kanter in consecutive drafts to open up space for FA/CAP mgmt.
 

NomarsFool

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Not having a pick in consecutive drafts isn't super great from a long-term team building perspective, so if they can find a way to take a shot on somebody - seems like that would be a good idea. I saw some article that was talking about how the Celtics didn't have any roster spots available which seemed like an incredibly ignorant take. The last 5 guys on the roster are extremely forgetable.
 

benhogan

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Not having a pick in consecutive drafts isn't super great from a long-term team building perspective, so if they can find a way to take a shot on somebody - seems like that would be a good idea. I saw some article that was talking about how the Celtics didn't have any roster spots available which seemed like an incredibly ignorant take. The last 5 guys on the roster are extremely forgetable.
Ha. yea, lots of bad articles out there.

Morgan, Fitts, Kornet, Stauskas, Ryan are effectively gone (Portland invites)

Begarin/Hauser weren't bad pick-ups last year
 

BigMike

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Interesting. Easons a PF out of LSU who people had going around 9-16 but, according to KOC, he’s apparently one of the names that’s falling down boards
Yeah, I never really saw 9-13 or so as a realistic opportunity for Eason, but maybe the 14-25 range. I can't envision him dropping all the way to 28, as he is plug and play for good teams as a defensive player. He just seems to have very limited offensive upside.
 

lexrageorge

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Not having a pick in consecutive drafts isn't super great from a long-term team building perspective, so if they can find a way to take a shot on somebody - seems like that would be a good idea. I saw some article that was talking about how the Celtics didn't have any roster spots available which seemed like an incredibly ignorant take. The last 5 guys on the roster are extremely forgetable.
Ha. yea, lots of bad articles out there.

Morgan, Fitts, Kornet, Stauskas, Ryan are effectively gone (Portland invites)

Begarin/Hauser weren't bad pick-ups last year
There's bad articles due to the rush to get something published, and then there's some that are simply inexcusably and egregiously bad. And the Celtics roster being "full" is clearly in the latter category.

The Celtics have 14 players under contract, plus Kornet (UFA) and the two 2-way players who are eligible to receive QO's. And one 2nd round pick. OMG!! Full roster!! However,.....

The Celtics have club options on Hauser (likely to be picked up) and Morgan (ceeeeya!). Stauskas and Fitts are non-guaranteed so can be waived without consequence. So they are really starting from 10 filled roster spots and 5 openings, with one likely to be taken by Hauser, and one that could potentially, albeit unlikely, be filled by #53 or Begarin. And that is prior to any potential trades.
 

Cellar-Door

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I saw something recently that Eason's camp has said he won't fall out of the teens (which smells of a promise).

A name I'd wonder about at 28 is Jake LaRavia, seems like a fit, positionally flexible, playmaker in a poor man's Kyle Anderson mode, but also showed some shooting.
Jovic would be interesting, but I can't see him being there unless they get into the early 20s.

Then there is a big collection of wings and swings with good athletic profiles but no shooting
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, I never really saw 9-13 or so as a realistic opportunity for Eason, but maybe the 14-25 range. I can't envision him dropping all the way to 28, as he is plug and play for good teams as a defensive player. He just seems to have very limited offensive upside.
Where do you see his limited offensive upside? He was one of the most natural scorers and shot creators in the SEC last year in his first year there. Quick off the dribble and he lived at the line.
 

JM3

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Yeah, 17 ppg in 24 minutes on 52/36/80 doesn't really scream of offensive limitations.

He's a bit older for his year as he's already 21, & some of the ways he scores in college might not really translate, but that's pretty good for a guy with a 7'2 wingspan who should be a competent to good defender off the bat.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, 17 ppg in 24 minutes on 52/36/80 doesn't really scream of offensive limitations.

He's a bit older for his year as he's already 21, & some of the ways he scores in college might not really translate, but that's pretty good for a guy with a 7'2 wingspan who should be a competent to good defender off the bat.
I just peaked at his game logs for some recall. He had 3 games of 10 FTA without playing more than 26 min. The Arkansas game he scored 24 in 18 min w 10 FTA. The guy knows how to attack and score at an advanced level.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, 17 ppg in 24 minutes on 52/36/80 doesn't really scream of offensive limitations.

He's a bit older for his year as he's already 21, & some of the ways he scores in college might not really translate, but that's pretty good for a guy with a 7'2 wingspan who should be a competent to good defender off the bat.
Looks an awful lot like Grant's age 20 numbers at Tennessee FWIW.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Looks an awful lot like Grant's age 20 numbers at Tennessee FWIW.
They do a lot of the same things but in a different way if that makes any sense. Both 3/4 tweeners which is now an advantage in todays game. Grant more of a power player while Eason is more athletic, longer and explosive so he possesses a much higher upside.
 

Cellar-Door

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LOL. Knicks are dumb.
I don't think the Knicks are dumb, I think the guy who posted that just threw it against the wall, combining "Knicks are trying to dump salary, Celtics might be interested" and "Knicks want to get off Evan Fournier's deal"
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't think the Knicks are dumb, I think the guy who posted that just threw it against the wall, combining "Knicks are trying to dump salary, Celtics might be interested" and "Knicks want to get off Evan Fournier's deal"
Yes it’s def clickbait season here in full swing.
 

moondog80

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I laughed, but is the Fournier *that* bad? 2 more years at 18.5 mil with a team option in year 3 for a 6'7" guy who can shoot and has at least sometimes been a decent defender? It's not a tradable asset, but there will be plenty of worse contracts signed this offseason.
 

Cellar-Door

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I laughed, but is the Fournier *that* bad? 2 more years at 18.5 mil with a team option in year 3 for a 6'7" guy who can shoot and has at least sometimes been a decent defender? It's not a tradable asset, but there will be p plenty of worse contracts signed this offseason.
I think the decent defender thing was a mirage, he got feasted on whenever teams made an effort to hunt him. If you're looking to do that, go get Duncan Robinson.
 

lexrageorge

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Given that the CBA already has provisions named after various players (Larry Bird and early-Bird exceptions, Gilbert Arenas and Ted Stepien provisions, and the absurd Rose Rule), it seems as if it would be fitting if there was a "Fournier rule" that either allows or forbids players from being traded back into their named TPE's.

Personally, hard pass on Fournier even if the numbers worked.
 

NomarsFool

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IF the Knicks were throwing in some compensation, which I assume they would be, I wouldn't totally hate the idea. He'd be a bench piece for us, and having someone who could come in and get a bucket for us would certainly help. I know the defense is bad, but in limited minutes, I think the Celtics could likely cover for him. We just lost the Finals because our bench couldn't score. Of course, Fournier never really scored like he was supposed to when he was here - so maybe not that helpful, but he can at least hit 3s.
 

128

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IF the Knicks were throwing in some compensation, which I assume they would be, I wouldn't totally hate the idea. He'd be a bench piece for us, and having someone who could come in and get a bucket for us would certainly help. I know the defense is bad, but in limited minutes, I think the Celtics could likely cover for him. We just lost the Finals because our bench couldn't score. Of course, Fournier never really scored like he was supposed to when he was here - so maybe not that helpful, but he can at least hit 3s.
Fournier played much better against the Celtics, first with Orlando and then the Knicks, than he did for the Celtics, but if the price were right, he'd be a nice piece off the bench.
 

PedroKsBambino

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If you're the Knicks and dumping Fournier allows you to sign Brunson for sure, you'd happily deal a future first---because Brunson is better than Fournier + that 1st (given Fournier is a clear negative asset).

Whether the market requries that much capital to move off Fournier I'm not sure about, but it's possible.
 

lovegtm

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Fournier played much better against the Celtics, first with Orlando and then the Knicks, than he did for the Celtics, but if the price were right, he'd be a nice piece off the bench.
He wasn't that bad for the Celtics. He was playing next to Kemba and the team was in disarray. His shot is real, and he can playmake/score some.

With decent draft capital, I'd consider it, since you have the salary for awhile, and the current team can cover his defensive issues a lot better.
 

BigMike

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Where do you see his limited offensive upside? He was one of the most natural scorers and shot creators in the SEC last year in his first year there. Quick off the dribble and he lived at the line.
That is what I have seen from any of the youtubes I have seen of analysts discussing him. Not sure the quality of this review, but has some numbers

https://www.grizzlybearblues.com/2022/5/31/23148291/2022-nba-draft-prospect-profiles-tari-eason-memphis-grizzlies-lsu-tigers

Tari Eason’s upside is limited by his creation inefficiencies. He ranked in the 20th percentile in isolation scoring, only generating 0.581 points per possession there. One of the attributing factors is his inability to drive left. Per Synergy Sports, he only scored 0.375 points per possession when driving left. His struggles from the left side of the floor wildly translates beyond the arc, as he shot 14.3% and 26.7% from the left corner and left wing.

His limitations as a creator are amplified as a playmaker. Among early entrants for the draft, only Kofi Cockburn as a worse assist-to-turnover ratio than Eason — 0.5 (73 turnovers against 33 assists). So it’s fair to question whether it’s a product of high usage or a lack of feel. The answer will play itself out as he transitions to a smaller role at the next level.
I think he can be a solid contributor for a good team in the 16-25 range. But I think the above mentioned are the reasons he is being mentioned deeper into the draft or slipping