Celtics Offseason Primer

scottyno

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Do we think that this year put the Celts in the realm of legit Championship level team or do we think that most around the league thinks this was a one year wonder team?

The reason I ask is in the context of veterans around the league. Are we a ring chasing destination for veterans or are we still down the pecking order in this regard?
They didn't just have a fluke run to the finals, they demolished the league for almost half the season, and almost the entirety of their team hasn't reached it's prime yet.

They also seem to have plenty of bench minutes available for useful vets, something other top teams might not have.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'll offer a slightly different take here: they reverted to their native selves. A lot of the improvement we saw from Jan-June was catching the bad O out of their system, but when stuff got tight they want back to their instincts, which are generally pretty gross on the offensive side.

You see this all the time in different walks of life: people can have a good spell of controlling their impulses, doing things a bit differently, creating space through deliberate mindfulness ... and as soon as things get tough they revert right back to who they were. It can be really heartbreaking to see in friends and family; its annoying to see it out of your basketball team.
I think this is exactly what happened, although fatigue could have been a contributing factor, part of the reason "things got tough."
I think this is the trap with Smart. If he's not your pointguard, you're (1) bringing someone in at PG who is probably the weak link in your defense, which instantly changes the identity and scheme of the team, and (2) you've got a below-average offensive player that most teams don't respect, allowing them to double the Jays and slow down the game.

Smart at PG transformed this team defensively, but maybe also capped it offensively? I think its fair to ask if there's any kind of starting lineup with Marcus Smart in it that gets you where you want to be both on both sides of the ball.
Since "where we want to be" is "two more wins than last season," I think the answer is obviously "yes." Parts of the playoff run were so frustrating because of your first point - the reversion to bad habits under pressure. But the good habits are less than 6 months old even today! Part of why the reversion happened was because of how recently in the past the bad habits were just how they did things. A deeper bench, another full year for Ime to implement his system, and the Celtics can improve by 2 wins.
No, my argument is that you can't know when obviously your team is going to be 2 wins from the championship ahead of time, so when you're in the mix don't be looking to duck the tax when you're a goddamn billionaire running around jabbering about Banner 18.
This is a pointless argument, because it devovles down to "Wyc should just spend like he has an unlimited budget every year." OK, maybe he "should." There's nowhere to go from there other than a broken-record of repeating the same criticism over and over again.
Do people really think the Celtics didn't really have much of a chance this season? The front office sure didn't act like it.
On January 7, the Celtics were 18-21 and appeared to be headed for the draft lottery. I don't think anyone saw them going 33-10 and then to the finals from there. Things looked a little better at the deadline (31-25), but that was based on one string month of play, which is still just one month.
They traded another first round pick before the season to flip Kemba Walker for 35 year old Al Horford.
The conventional wisdom at the time was that this deal was a salary dump. Kemba is coming off a season when he hit career-lows in games played, minutes, points and assists per game, assists per 36, PER, and assist rate, and his second worst points per 36 after his rookie year. And he is on the books for $37.5 million next year. The Horford deal did make sense as a straight salary dump.
What's fucking tedious is fans worrying over billionaire owners bottom line.

I'm not expecting Wyc to throw money around like a Lacob or Ballmer.

But, can he just open up the purse strings a little? Is that so much to ask?
But you very clearly are expecting Wyc to spend like Lacob or Ballmer. Not for 2021-22, but going forward. Because you've said nothing at any point that suggests if the Celtics could have spent money and didn't that you would be OK with it.
Yes. They dumped Schroder (and to a much lesser extent Kanter/Bruno) into the Theis deal when they didn't have to.
A reasonable person could judge the Schroder trade as addition by subtraction. And the idea that the Celtics would have been well served by keeping Bruno and Kanter is, frankly, ludicrous. These were valueless players tossed into a deal for salary matching purposes.
They could've either kept Schroder as a bench player, or spun him as matching salary into a bench player who could play in the playoffs.

Or the could've used one of their TPEs to just take back salary for a bench upgrade.

Or they could've used the Fournier TPE to take back White, and maybe kept Josh Richardson if the Spurs deal were different.

One more guy could've come in handy in game 5 in GS, when you got zero from the three bench players who actually played.
This is all hypothetical, hindsight-biased wishcasting.

The bottom line: Whether he needs to or not, whether he should or not, Wyc runs the Celtics under some financial constraints. We don't know precisely what those are, but we do know that he will go above the tax line in some circumstances but not others. It is reasonable for people to be interested in the team to consider how to best use the resources that Wyc will make available. Doing so isn't worry about Wyc's bottom line, and spinning it that way is disingenuous.
Do we think that this year put the Celts in the realm of legit Championship level team or do we think that most around the league thinks this was a one year wonder team?

The reason I ask is in the context of veterans around the league. Are we a ring chasing destination for veterans or are we still down the pecking order in this regard?
I think it is pretty obvious that they are in the realm of legit championship team. If there was a one-year wonder aspect to this season, it was in getting to that level one year ahead of time after a below average first half.
 

Devizier

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If the Celtics are going to spark up talks with the Wizards, I’m hoping they are also looking at tier two depth guys like Kuzma and Caldwell-Pope. Not life altering guys but they would be huge wing depth pieces.

I don’t know why Kuzma is so bad defensively, he certainly has the tools to be better. Maybe the Celtics could extract that ability from him, a la Wes Matthews on the Bucks.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Using the TPE to acquire a player to eventually staple to Theis ($8.7M) + Nesmith ($3.8M) isn't the worst idea. Not 100% positive about the rule there. In theory that would get you a $29.5M player
I don’t expect Theis to go anywhere as he’s projected to be a key part of our regular season rotation next year assuming TL misses part of (yikes) all of the season. Clearing out Nesmith’s dead $3.8m plus is something I expect them to pay someone to take.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If the Celtics are going to spark up talks with the Wizards, I’m hoping they are also looking at tier two depth guys like Kuzma and Caldwell-Pope. Not life altering guys but they would be huge wing depth pieces.

I don’t know why Kuzma is so bad defensively, he certainly has the tools to be better. Maybe the Celtics could extract that ability from him, a la Wes Matthews on the Bucks.
Those are both Fournier TPE options.
 

benhogan

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I don’t expect Theis to go anywhere as he’s projected to be a key part of our regular season rotation next year assuming TL misses part of (yikes) all of the season. Clearing out Nesmith’s dead $3.8m plus is something I expect them to pay someone to take.
Sure I like Theis, but if he can help us get a near max WING because Wyc gets drunk on the thoughts of Banner 18 then I'll gladly drive those two (Nesmith also) to Logan. I was just answering another poster's question about laddering the Fournier TPE into something more than $17.1M

We got Theis for jetsam/flotsam, that's his market value

You can find a center that does 80% of what DT does for the vet min. Fungible 5s. More young BIGs show up at the draft every year, so lottery teams toss aside their starting/2nd string Centers. It's the Circle of Life for the modern-day big man

Fully aware this upsets the old-time hoopers, but the skyhook isn't walking through that NBA door ;)

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/center/
 
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Cellar-Door

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I can see the argument for Kuzma, he even played better (not good, but better) D his last year in LA and early in the year for WAS. But he's going to want a big contract.

I like Burks... $10M contract with a $10.5M team option for 2023-24, NYK are trying to move him to free up cap space for a run at guys like Brunson.

Here are some other guys who fit into the TPE who might be various levels of available:
Duncan Robinson
Marcus Morris
Malik Beasly
Derrick Rose
Kevin Heurter
Will Barton
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Jordan Clarkson
Kelly Olynyk
Kelly Oubre
Terrence Ross
Reggie Bullock
Larry Nance Jr.
 

Cellar-Door

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Tweet thread of Brad's comments today about the offseason:
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1539239939870801924


Notable bits:
no surgeries for anyone
go ahead to spend this summer
need some scoring off the bench
like some of the internal guys to develop more
Team fit is important not just adding talent, big versatile and defensively sound is the identity, don't plan to change that.
Want guys who can move the ball
Want to get off to a good start, foundation is there.

My take on that as a whole is that they are not looking for a new star or even probably starter. Expect them to use MLE and a TPE to add to the bench in the 6th-8th roles.

Edit- also seemed like a bit of a quiet knockdown of Beal rumors (talent vs fit, wanting to keep the identity of being a big team, wanting continuity, etc.).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Sure I like Theis, but if he can help us get a near max WING because Wyc gets drunk on the thoughts of Banner 18 then I'll gladly drive those two (Nesmith also) to Logan. I was just answering another poster's question about laddering the Fournier TPE into something more than $17.1M

We got Theis for jetsam/flotsam, that's his market value

You can find a center that does 80% of what DT does for the vet min. Fungible 5s. More young BIGs show up at the draft every year, so lottery teams toss aside their starting/2nd string Centers. It's the Circle of Life for the modern-day big man

Fully aware this upsets the old-time hoopers, but the skyhook isn't walking through that NBA door ;)

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/center/
Yeah if we can turn Theis into a near max wing sure but to say a vet min guy can seemlessly fit into our system and produce is almost certainly unlikely (how did you like Kornet, Wagner or Fall here?) although as we are now a ring chaser destination the chances do marginally increase.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This all depends on the market----but having an Ingles or Danny Green stashed away to rehab and play a role late in year/playoffs feels like a good piece of the puzzle. You want layers of guys, I believe, with young guys developing as one layer (Hauser/Nesmith/Thomas and also Grant/PP improving); you want 1-2 material FA adds or TPE adds; and to me also a vet who comes back or a buyout guy. Celts clearly a ring-chasing destination now.
 

benhogan

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Yeah if we can turn Theis into a near max wing sure but to say a vet min guy can seemlessly fit into our system and produce is almost certainly unlikely (how did you like Kornet, Wagner or Fall here?) although as we are now a ring chaser destination the chances do marginally increase.
None of those 3 even qualify for Fungible 5 o_O

Tacko was a sideshow Circus Act, Kornet didn't even qualify for that, and Wagner's claim to fame is being Franz's brother

Dedmon probably can be had on a min

Hartenstein should get Theis money and I'd rather have him.
 

JakeRae

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None of those 3 even qualify for Fungible 5 o_O

Tacko was a sideshow Circus Act, Kornet didn't even qualify for that, and Wagner's claim to fame is being Franz's brother

Dedmon probably can be had on a min

Hartenstein should get Theis money and I'd rather have him.
Setting aside your rather strange view that some vet min bigs don’t qualify as vet min bigs, a big you think will get “Theis money” is entirely unattainable for Boston. There is no realistic pathway to adding a FA this offseason except via the taxpayer MLE or vet min. There’s lots of pathways to adding talent that is already under contract at various levels, but we are limited to bargain hunting when it comes to free agency.
 

benhogan

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Setting aside your rather strange view that some vet min bigs don’t qualify as vet min bigs, a big you think will get “Theis money” is entirely unattainable for Boston. There is no realistic pathway to adding a FA this offseason except via the taxpayer MLE or vet min. There’s lots of pathways to adding talent that is already under contract at various levels, but we are limited to bargain hunting when it comes to free agency.
Sure, the 3 HRB named as Fungible 5s aren't my cup of tea so they wouldn't qualify as guys I'd want to replace 80% of DT

We were discussing value and Theis' trade/contract value is jetsam/flotsam. Over the last 2 seasons he has been given away for free on 2 different occasions

Once again I wouldn't hold back on moving Theis if it meant attaining a high-end WING and that was the original question.

Replacing 80% of your 3rd string Center wouldn't be that hard with the mid-player exception or the Juancho TPE (this is all predicated on Wyc going hog wild with the budget)
 

Devizier

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Theis is one of those weird cases where trade value and contract value don’t agree. It’s maybe not that weird, career role players don’t have the earnings to take ring chaser contracts, they’re going to go for the money even if the fit is poor.

For that reason, I don’t think Hartenstein or even Muscala will be available for the Celtics, Theis or no. And they’ll have a tough time getting ring chasers to take a third big role, unless they are really getting old.
 

lexrageorge

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The Brad Stevens comments in his interview seem to reinforce the most likely path forward as predicted by the majority of posters: likely will use a combination of TPE's and taxpayer MLE to improve the bench, in particular bench scoring. Will also count on some improvement by the players on the roster. Will probably explore every possibility, but unlikely to pull the trigger on a big deal that, for example, moves a Marcus Smart or brings in a Beal-type "3rd star". Budgetary approval to win now has been granted. Stevens is fully bought into Ime's approach regarding defense and ball movement.

Bottom line is that it's the Jay's team, with Stevens on the hook to upgrade the supporting cast where feasible.
 

128

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The Brad Stevens comments in his interview seem to reinforce the most likely path forward as predicted by the majority of posters: likely will use a combination of TPE's and taxpayer MLE to improve the bench, in particular bench scoring. Will also count on some improvement by the players on the roster. Will probably explore every possibility, but unlikely to pull the trigger on a big deal that, for example, moves a Marcus Smart or brings in a Beal-type "3rd star". Budgetary approval to win now has been granted. Stevens is fully bought into Ime's approach regarding defense and ball movement.

Bottom line is that it's the Jay's team, with Stevens on the hook to upgrade the supporting cast where feasible.
Of course, if Stevens and the C's were interested in Beal, they wouldn't acknowledge as much publicly.
 

BigSoxFan

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Of course, if Stevens and the C's were interested in Beal, they wouldn't acknowledge as much publicly.
Yeah. Odds have always been running it back with some bench reinforcements but they clearly have the flexibility to do more if the situation arises. No GM is going to stand up there and be like, "yeah, we're going all-in on Lillard or Beal now". But the odds of making a huge splash, even on the level of a Derrick White, is probably very low.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think Theis would be available for the right deal, I also think it would be pretty hard to replace him. We have the discussion endlessly about how you can get a big, but the thing is...
you usually can't get a big who can do what the Celtics want, it's a bit of a crapshoot, sure some team will get lucky on vet min bigs, but most don't.

Now my guess is that if the Celtics had a trade lined up that got them an impact wing and it took Theis, they do it then look to pick up Nerlens Noel or something into the Fournier TPE.

Edit- Another option is Alec Burks and Taj Gibson in a combined salary eating. Gibson's offense was terrible but he played okay D. I think that is a nice use of the TPE. Honestly think the Knicks are our likely partner on one or more TPE, they want to clear cap, and they have a few guys who we might want in the right circumstances.
 

benhogan

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Theis is one of those weird cases where trade value and contract value don’t agree. It’s maybe not that weird, career role players don’t have the earnings to take ring chaser contracts, they’re going to go for the money even if the fit is poor.

For that reason, I don’t think Hartenstein or even Muscala will be available for the Celtics, Theis or no. And they’ll have a tough time getting ring chasers to take a third big role, unless they are really getting old.
Houston probably felt that Theis' contract was a negative by the trade deadline. Sengun was developing and he needed minutes.

OTOH Theis was a good deal for the Celtics, I liked it and it paid off in the first round against the Nets. He was an upgrade to Kanter.

BUT finding 3rd string Centers like Daniel Theis shouldn't be a concern, at the latest they can be had by the trade deadline by a contender. It happens every season.

Can I name which team will be motivated to move a 5 after the draft, this summer, during the season or at the trade deadline? Nope. BUT they will be there. Heck, we just saw Christian Woods go for a late first + salaries. AND he is worlds better than Daniel Theis.
 

Jimbodandy

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If the Celtics are going to spark up talks with the Wizards, I’m hoping they are also looking at tier two depth guys like Kuzma and Caldwell-Pope. Not life altering guys but they would be huge wing depth pieces.

I don’t know why Kuzma is so bad defensively, he certainly has the tools to be better. Maybe the Celtics could extract that ability from him, a la Wes Matthews on the Bucks.
Kuzma is a bad player both offensively and defensively. He's below replacement level. Sometimes the groupthink is that he's like Nance with better shooting, but Nance on his worst day is a way better player.

I wouldn't want Kuzma on an MLE, let alone the salary that he's expecting.
 

Just a bit outside

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Is Kenyon Martin Jr decent? Super athletic wins who makes peanuts but recently asked for a trade. He is not long but seems like he could be a decent wing/big off the bench. May overlap with Grant to much.

Maybe a couple of 2nd rounders would get it done.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Sure, the 3 HRB named as Fungible 5s aren't my cup of tea so they wouldn't qualify as guys I'd want to replace 80% of DT

We were discussing value and Theis' trade/contract value is jetsam/flotsam. Over the last 2 seasons he has been given away for free on 2 different occasions

Once again I wouldn't hold back on moving Theis if it meant attaining a high-end WING and that was the original question.

Replacing 80% of your 3rd string Center wouldn't be that hard with the mid-player exception or the Juancho TPE (this is all predicated on Wyc going hog wild with the budget)
Theis isn’t our 3rd string center though. He’s in line to play the same 22-26 mpg that he has for most of his career until TL returns and we don’t know what Time Lord’s Time Line is as if yet. I do agree that if he can be part of a deal for an impact player he isn’t untouchable but you aren’t going to find any vet min guys to step in where you are confident the guy can do this job we know Theis, for all his warts, will do.
 

benhogan

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Theis isn’t our 3rd string center though. He’s in line to play the same 22-26 mpg that he has for most of his career until TL returns and we don’t know what Time Lord’s Time Line is as if yet. I do agree that if he can be part of a deal for an impact player he isn’t untouchable but you aren’t going to find any vet min guys to step in where you are confident the guy can do this job we know Theis, for all his warts, will do.
I'm fine with DT and not hoping they move him for a bag of dirt. BUT would be thrilled if his salary got Boston a rotational WING that will save the JAYs wear n tear. Also hoping Grant sheds another 5-10lbs and is a dependable bench wing, which is also a possibility

At the moment, I can't tell you which 5 they could get for the Juancho TPE or MLE (not Tacko :eek:) but plenty will be made available between now and the trade deadline. I'm actually pretty bummed they didn't get a chance to bid on Woods with their Fournier TPE, but for some reason, Houston felt like immediately shipping him off to a conference rival was in their best interests.
 

mcpickl

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Do you have a cite indicating these trade ideas would have worked for the counter party?
No

I'm theorizing, you know, like we all do on this board. Are other posters working off of inside information?

But if you need an example, let's say San Antonio, a rebuilding team, put Josh Richardson on the market.

What do you think they'd get for him, if they had to take back no money?

It's less than a first right? Maybe a good second or two bad seconds?

So, is it way off base to think the Celtics could've just added that rather than Richardson in the deal if they were willing to pay the tax?

I don't think it is.
 

mcpickl

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But you very clearly are expecting Wyc to spend like Lacob or Ballmer. Not for 2021-22, but going forward. Because you've said nothing at any point that suggests if the Celtics could have spent money and didn't that you would be OK with it.
No I'm not and I've said so multiple times in this thread.

I've even pushed back on people in this thread wishcasting that Wyc is going to spend huge this season, and I've said it's not necessary.

I just don't think it's much to ask to have your owner go a nominal amount over the tax for your playoff team.

Doesn't seem crazy to me

And the idea that the Celtics would have been well served by keeping Bruno and Kanter is, frankly, ludicrous.
Frankly, that sure would be ludicrous.

But it's not what I meant. I meant they could've used them in matching salary in a different deal if needed.
 

chilidawg

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Theis isn’t our 3rd string center though. He’s in line to play the same 22-26 mpg that he has for most of his career until TL returns and we don’t know what Time Lord’s Time Line is as if yet. I do agree that if he can be part of a deal for an impact player he isn’t untouchable but you aren’t going to find any vet min guys to step in where you are confident the guy can do this job we know Theis, for all his warts, will do.
I get that we don't know what's up with TL, but he played 32 minutes in the last finals game, and Brad has said no offseason surgeries expected. Why assume he's going to be out?

Theis will certainly get minutes as Ime (hopefully) will be keeping everybody on a reasonable minutes plan for the first part of the season.
 

lovegtm

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Wyc says he will spend.

View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1539321981677449217?s=20&t=bjoxzp_0M5dQYKL8-nTifg




Celtics on NBC Sports Boston
@NBCSCeltics
"It's never been business at the Celtics... whatever needs to be done, can be done"

Wyc Grousbeck says he's not shy about going over the luxury tax to win
Yeah, this is only surprising to the bizarre contingent here that pretends the Big 3 era didn't exist in order to have something to fret about. To each his own...
 

benhogan

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Yeah, this is only surprising to the bizarre contingent here that pretends the Big 3 era didn't exist in order to have something to fret about. To each his own...
Mazz did frame the question well.

I'd really like to see them use both the $17.1M TPE + MLE.

Rumors of the Knicks looking for CAP space. I wonder if Brad could extract a future pick swap by taking on some $$$

Team asset values are climbing + the massive TV contract will kick in right at the JAYs peak.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/267453/Knicks-Hope-To-Create-$25M-In-Cap-Space-By-Trading-Alec-Burks-Nerlens-Noel
 

Jimbodandy

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Mazz did frame the question well.

I'd really like to see them use both the $17.1M TPE + MLE.

Rumors of the Knicks looking for CAP space. I wonder if Brad could extract a future pick swap by taking on some $$$

Team asset values are climbing + the massive TV contract will kick in right at the JAYs peak.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/267453/Knicks-Hope-To-Create-$25M-In-Cap-Space-By-Trading-Alec-Burks-Nerlens-Noel
There will be all sorts of teams looking to make deals like this. Some of them (well, perhaps many of them) will be "fuck no" players like Heywould. Some will be interesting guys like Wood. This shit is just starting.

I have a damn good feeling that PBS will do something with that TPE. And then we can find something else to squawk about besides Wyc's wallet.
 

NomarsFool

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His salary is just over $30 million, and I believe he has a 15% trade kicker on top (no idea if that also counts with regards to salary matching in a trade - I would certainly assume so). It will make it difficult for Charlotte to find a match.
 

lexrageorge

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His salary is just over $30 million, and I believe he has a 15% trade kicker on top (no idea if that also counts with regards to salary matching in a trade - I would certainly assume so). It will make it difficult for Charlotte to find a match.
The trade kicker indeed counts when it comes to incoming salary for the receiving team, although sometimes players will waive it in order to facilitate a trade.
 

NomarsFool

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The trade kicker indeed counts when it comes to incoming salary for the receiving team, although sometimes players will waive it in order to facilitate a trade.
I guess in this instance it would depend on whether Hayward would view the new destination as preferable to Charlotte. Difficult situation for him, as I would assume he and his family settled in Charlotte and not cool to uproot your kids again.
 

lexrageorge

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I thought it was also true if they spent past the apron?
They can spend as much as they want. The only other way to get hard capped is to use the full MLE or the biannual exceptions.

Golden State was not hard capped.
 

NomarsFool

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I've seen many reports that if they were to acquire someone via sign and trade it would hard cap them, which I think is pretty tough given the salaries they already have.

So, I believe they can use the TPE and MLE without any issue (it will put them into the luxurty tax)
 

pjheff

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I've seen many reports that if they were to acquire someone via sign and trade it would hard cap them, which I think is pretty tough given the salaries they already have.

So, I believe they can use the TPE and MLE without any issue (it will put them into the luxurty tax)
I wasn’t clear if it would be a hard cap or a self-induced limit per this article:

However, how much of that exception they could use all depended on their salary cap. An Eastern Conference executive recently told Heavy that because of Boston’s salary cap situation this summer, they won’t be able to use that full exception unless they cut ties with one of their big contracts like Al Horford.

“They can’t use the Fournier TPE unless they create some room, really,” The executive said. “They’re going to be over the tax and right around the tax apron and that is basically a hard cap for them. So they have $17 million to use on that TPE but really, they can only use as much as they are under the apron. They can get further under the apron if they waive Horford, but I don’t think anyone sees that happening now. It is a big chip and I think they planned to use it until they started playing this way. I’d say they’ve pretty much given up on using it.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/evan-fournier-trade-exception/
 

Cellar-Door

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I wasn’t clear if it would be a hard cap or a self-induced limit per this article:

However, how much of that exception they could use all depended on their salary cap. An Eastern Conference executive recently told Heavy that because of Boston’s salary cap situation this summer, they won’t be able to use that full exception unless they cut ties with one of their big contracts like Al Horford.

“They can’t use the Fournier TPE unless they create some room, really,” The executive said. “They’re going to be over the tax and right around the tax apron and that is basically a hard cap for them. So they have $17 million to use on that TPE but really, they can only use as much as they are under the apron. They can get further under the apron if they waive Horford, but I don’t think anyone sees that happening now. It is a big chip and I think they planned to use it until they started playing this way. I’d say they’ve pretty much given up on using it.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/evan-fournier-trade-exception/
This is just the exec speculating that they won't spend, not that they can't. I wouldn't take that as anything. Though given the source of that article, good chance that quote is just made up.
 

lexrageorge

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That article is definitely misstating the conditions which trigger the hard cap. Teams use TPE’s and blow past the apron all the time.

I believe that executive is assuming the Celtics will do a sign-and-trade when discussing the apron, which I agree is unlikely. And a sign and trade is perhaps the easiest way to use the full TPE, so there is a chance some of that $17m goes unused.

EDIT: There are only 2 ways a team can get hard capped at the apron:

1.) They acquire a free agent via a sign-and-trade. This rule is to prevent a large market team (whom presumably would be over the apron) from being able to continually manipulate trade exceptions and acquire marquee free agents from small market teams for minimal return.

2.) They use one of the two salary cap exceptions reserved for teams below the apron: the full MLE, and the biannual. This is to close a loophole that would otherwise allow a team close to the apron to use the full MLE and become a taxpaying team, thereby gaining an advantage over other teams currently above the apron.

There are no other ways to get hard capped. Using a TPE or the taxpayer MLE does not by itself trigger a hard cap. Using a TPE to acquire a free agent via sign-and-trade does trigger a hard cap, but that is due to the use of the sign-and-trade, not the TPE.
 
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Fishy1

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This is just the exec speculating that they won't spend, not that they can't. I wouldn't take that as anything. Though given the source of that article, good chance that quote is just made up.
Plus, it seems like all indications from the Celtics are that they intend to spend if they feel that the spending makes for a good fit.

I mean, everyone here identified that depth at guard -- specifically a ballhandler, whether that's a guard or a wing, who can not only penetrate but buys into ball movement -- is a major need, as well as wing depth. They just went to the finals but couldn't sustain their performance because they were obviously tired from playing so hard since January. And now you've got the coach openly saying they need ballhandling and the exec saying they'll spend whatever the hell it takes... and some random exec says "oh they won't spend money."

I don't buy it for a second.
 

JM3

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If nothing better comes along I would be super comfortable taking a free Alec Burks into the Fournier TPE.

He's a really competent wing who should fit in nicely with IME's system & has 1 year left at $10m & then a team option for $10.5m.

If the Knicks would give up something to make that happen? All the better.

The Nerl fit is a lot more wonky, though, unless the Knicks wanted to get into the Theis business which I'm pretty sure they don't. Nerl is $9.2m & then a $9.7m team option.
 

Cellar-Door

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If nothing better comes along I would be super comfortable taking a free Alec Burks into the Fournier TPE.

He's a really competent wing who should fit in nicely with IME's system & has 1 year left at $10m & then a team option for $10.5m.

If the Knicks would give up something to make that happen? All the better.

The Nerl fit is a lot more wonky, though, unless the Knicks wanted to get into the Theis business which I'm pretty sure they don't. Nerl is $9.2m & then a $9.7m team option.
Yep, I;m on the Burks train barring something weird coming along, he's a really good player in the right role, and it's a role we need. Plus if people are all hung up on the "get Tatum's friends" train, Tatum is his kid's godfather.

Honestly Burks is poor man's Beal, at a fraction of the price. My guess is NYK think they can get something back for him, or even better can clear out FOurnier and Noel and keep Burks, but as time pushes on I'm hopeful they end up falling back to Burks for a fake 2nd (or 53).
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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I fear Marcus Smart is on the Pedroia timeline, the way he throws his body around. He won't be effective at age 31, 32.

Horford's cooked, too. It's a shame; this was our chance.
Wanted to retract this. "Cooked" is a strong word for Horford, as was represented to me by the stats presented. He is (or will be) 36, but seems to take great care of his body, and is clearly a professional. I am actually a great fan of Horford, having vivid memories of his back-to-back college championships, as well as his inspired play against us in 2008.

Smart I love too, and would not trade him. It's more that I worry about him. Pedroia's decline was heartbreaking despite his obvious talent. Marcus also throws his body around with abandon, but what he brings, we need. He's the longest tenured C and sets our defensive tone. I am less down on his decision making than many, and do think - health provided - he will have another very good season next year. It's after next year that I'm worried about. A poster above mentioned Kyle Lowry as a similar body type that could persevere into their early thirties, which gave me hope.

My post was more "Damn, tough loss" than "Al and Marcus suck". Just wanted to acknowledge.
 

lovegtm

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It's funny to watch teams queuing up to pay PJ Tucker, who is a year older than Horford, far less physically talented, and doesn't take care of his body better.

Most guys can't age into their late 30s, but Al checks every box. I wouldn't want to pay him $28M after this year, but I doubt they'll have to.
 

Caspir

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It's funny to watch teams queuing up to pay PJ Tucker, who is a year older than Horford, far less physically talented, and doesn't take care of his body better.

Most guys can't age into their late 30s, but Al checks every box. I wouldn't want to pay him $28M after this year, but I doubt they'll have to.
But Tucker is looking at an MLE-ish deal. If Al was available for 25% of his current salary, he'd have every team in the league in on him.