2022-2023 General Celtics thread

lovegtm

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It's funny that LeBron getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation is the biggest scandal since Watergate, and Rob Williams getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation 2 days prior barely gets mentioned during the broadcast itself.
 

128

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This may be an unpopular (and incorrect) take, but I don't think the Lakers, with AD in the lineup, are an easy out. They were a trainwreck early in the season, but they've figured some things out.

Beverley won't always shoot as well from outside as he did last nite, but I wouldn't be eager to play L.A. in the playoffs.
 

NickEsasky

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It's funny that LeBron getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation is the biggest scandal since Watergate, and Rob Williams getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation 2 days prior barely gets mentioned during the broadcast itself.
Nice to see the Celtics on the good end of one of these non-calls for a change.
 

bankshot1

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Because LeBron suffered the only missed call last night.

Poor fucking LeBron.

We caught a break at the buzzer last night.

That he met with disappointment and drama on the parquet is ok with me.

The Lakers have a huge credit balance of bullshit calls that need to get whittled down.

Fuck them.
 

Imbricus

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This may be an unpopular (and incorrect) take, but I don't think the Lakers, with AD in the lineup, are an easy out. They were a trainwreck early in the season, but they've figured some things out.
They're one of those interesting veteran teams that should have the ability to find another gear in the playoffs (assuming they get there). When Lebron decides to show up, he still looks unstoppable.

But the big question is the supporting cast, beyond Lebron and Anthony Davis. Westbrook's shooting just keeps getting worse (28% from three this year). Those stories about L.A. announcers yelling "No, Russ!" when he pulls up to shoot late in close games aren't apocryphal.
 

lexrageorge

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This may be an unpopular (and incorrect) take, but I don't think the Lakers, with AD in the lineup, are an easy out. They were a trainwreck early in the season, but they've figured some things out.

Beverley won't always shoot as well from outside as he did last nite, but I wouldn't be eager to play L.A. in the playoffs.
In some respects, they remind me of the West's poor man's version of the Sixers or Nets. Their 2 stars make them a difficult matchup on any given night, and they have complementary pieces that can win a series. But it is an open question on whether they can keep up with the younger and more athletic teams that they would have to face in multiple best-of-7 series to get to the Finals. And they could be in a position to have to win 2 single elimination games just to get there (a problem the Sixers will not have).
 
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bankshot1

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The Lakers can be a beast any given night, but can they win 4 of 7 in multiple series against younger and better teams?

It is very unlikely the Cs will see the Lakers again in '23.
 

lovegtm

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I think our perception of teams like the Lakers is flawed, because Celtics games seem to be the Super Bowl for a lot of teams. I'm highly skeptical they can summon that level of intensity for 3 rounds of the playoffs, never mind health issues.
 

bosockboy

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Because LeBron suffered the only missed call last night.

Poor fucking LeBron.

We caught a break at the buzzer last night.

That he met with disappointment and drama on the parquet is ok with me.

The Lakers have a huge credit balance of bullshit calls that need to get whittled down.

Fuck them.
2010 will never be forgiven and they were gifted a ring in 2002 against Sacramento in game 6, if Donaghy is to be believed.
 

Euclis20

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In some respects, they remind me of the West's poor man's version of the Sixers or Nets. Their 2 stars make them a difficult matchup on any given night, and they have complementary pieces that can win a series. But it is an open question on whether they can keep up with the younger and more athletic teams that they would have to face in multiple best-of-7 series to get to the Finals. And they could be in a position to have to win 2 single elimination games just to get there (a problem the Sixers will not have).
Lebron/AD is definitely similar to Durant/Kyrie and Embiid/Harden (right down to the availability issues), but I don't see the Lakers as having anything remotely resembling the supporting cast of the Nets or the Sixers. The latter two have their own issues (both teams are really hurting for 2-way players they trust), but if you're combining the 3 teams and making a list of the 12 best players for the playoffs (outside of each teams top 2), I don't see the Lakers having more than 1-2 guys making that 12. It's not just that the Nets/Sixers have better supporting casts, it's that they actually have useful role players and the Lakers really don't.
 

ElUno20

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I think our perception of teams like the Lakers is flawed, because Celtics games seem to be the Super Bowl for a lot of teams. I'm highly skeptical they can summon that level of intensity for 3 rounds of the playoffs, never mind health issues.
I really enjoyed espn nba crew all saying the west is terrified of playing them in the 1st round.
 

Jimbodandy

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It's funny that LeBron getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation is the biggest scandal since Watergate, and Rob Williams getting blatantly fouled at the end of regulation 2 days prior barely gets mentioned during the broadcast itself.
Not to mention that the refs gave the points back in overtime with the bullshit flagrant 1 on Brogdon who did not hit the head, was reaching for the ball, and did not make any non basketball move.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not to mention that the refs gave the points back in overtime with the bullshit flagrant 1 on Brogdon who did not hit the head, was reaching for the ball, and did not make any non basketball move.
No that was the correct call since the contact came after Westbrook was airborne. That was one of the rule changes a few years ago I think they call it “unnecessary contact against a vulnerable player.” They reviewed to see if Russ had left the ground prior to contact which he did.
 

Jimbodandy

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No that was the correct call since the contact came after Westbrook was airborne. That was one of the rule changes a few years ago I think they call it “unnecessary contact against a vulnerable player.” They reviewed to see if Russ had left the ground prior to contact which he did.
How is the contact unnecessary? He's contesting a layup and reached for the ball.
 

Euclis20

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No that was the correct call since the contact came after Westbrook was airborne. That was one of the rule changes a few years ago I think they call it “unnecessary contact against a vulnerable player.” They reviewed to see if Russ had left the ground prior to contact which he did.
If he left the ground it was just barely (brogdon was reaching across his body as Westbrook was preparing to jump), but even if he was airborne, the other half of that rule is "unnecessary contact." Brogdon definitely didn't want to give up the points, but he also definitely went for the ball and got Westbrook in the arm, not in the head or neck area. In a vacuum it was a borderline call, but given the missed call against Lebron (and the fact that Westbrook hit his head on a camera and stayed down for a minute after), there was no doubt it was going to be called.
 

Spelunker

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How is the contact unnecessary? He's contesting a layup and reached for the ball.
Well, it's unnecessary because that's illegal contact if the person is already in the air. If you can't get the ball without making contact, then it's a flagrant.
 

Euclis20

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Unnecessary is usually either to the head or neck, or considered excessive contact. It can also be when a player winds up and swings at the ball, but gets the players body or arms instead. The latter is I guess what occurred here because Brogdon did swipe down and hit him pretty hard, but there wasn't really any wind up.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think they called it on Brogdon because he couldn’t reach the ball, as HRB notes. What makes that a questionable call is that the reason he couldn’t reach it is Westbrook held the ball far on the outside, beyond normal basketball move location, sensing the contact. So I think the better call there was no flagrant as it did not otherwise merit one (unneccessary force, head, etc.). It’s an intent foul and Brodgon was trying for the ball—-it just was pulled away. I get the call on replay, but do not agree it was correct in context
 

Humphrey

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The call I'd like to see explained was the reversal of the Davis foul. How can you reverse an official saying in the moment that he thought there was contact enough for a foul, then deciding there wasn't contact enough? Seems like a camera can say "no contact" or "contact", but that's all
 

JCizzle

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I think they called it on Brogdon because he couldn’t reach the ball, as HRB notes. What makes that a questionable call is that the reason he couldn’t reach it is Westbrook held the ball far on the outside, beyond normal basketball move location, sensing the contact. So I think the better call there was no flagrant as it did not otherwise merit one (unneccessary force, head, etc.). It’s an intent foul and Brodgon was trying for the ball—-it just was pulled away. I get the call on replay, but do not agree it was correct in context
Compare the Brogdon call:

https://go.nba.com/uja7u

To the Lowry foul that they reviewed and was determined a common foul. Lowry was only about four feet from reaching the ball:

https://go.nba.com/j8lhf
 

nighthob

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No that was the correct call since the contact came after Westbrook was airborne. That was one of the rule changes a few years ago I think they call it “unnecessary contact against a vulnerable player.” They reviewed to see if Russ had left the ground prior to contact which he did.
I mean they don't make that call pretty much ever. See Kyle Lowry smacking people in the head after they've left the ground only to have them called common fouls.
 

lovegtm

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The 2 minute report said it was a correct no call. So any apology (of sorts) is probably not forthcoming.
I give up understanding NBA rules at this point. The guy whacked his arm; none of the "hand is part of the ball" rules apply.
 

InstaFace

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Absolutely a foul, absolutely an all-time dramatic performance. Lebron out there like he just found out he lost someone he loved
It's falling on deaf ears over here, given:

1. The Grant Williams stepped-out-of-bounds, where he didn't
2. The Westbrook offensive-goaltending where he smacked the rim on his putback off the glass, which went uncalled
3. That call Lebron got halfway through the 4th on Brogdon where they didn't even show it on ESPN but the crowd saw it and booed lustily
4. Getting both challenges wrong - Davis did body Tatum, and even though they overturned the foul on Derrick White (it was a clean strip), they called it a jump ball. So the Lakers get to keep possession on their overturn (which itself was bullshit), but we have to jump ball despite a clear recovery?

And that's just from memory. I'm sure there were other bullshit calls and non-calls benefitting both sides all games. So excuuuuuuse me if I'm not buying it when Lebron acts like all of those don't matter exactly as much as the one on the last play of regulation.
 

Fishy1

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It's falling on deaf ears over here, given:

1. The Grant Williams stepped-out-of-bounds, where he didn't
2. The Westbrook offensive-goaltending where he smacked the rim on his putback off the glass, which went uncalled
3. That call Lebron got halfway through the 4th on Brogdon where they didn't even show it on ESPN but the crowd saw it and booed lustily
4. Getting both challenges wrong - Davis did body Tatum, and even though they overturned the foul on Derrick White (it was a clean strip), they called it a jump ball. So the Lakers get to keep possession on their overturn (which itself was bullshit), but we have to jump ball despite a clear recovery?

And that's just from memory. I'm sure there were other bullshit calls and non-calls benefitting both sides all games. So excuuuuuuse me if I'm not buying it when Lebron acts like all of those don't matter exactly as much as the one on the last play of regulation.
Don't get me wrong! He acted like a fool. I don't even need to look at the balance of the fouls to make that judgement call. I was just trying to give an account of his spiraling. I don't think his legacy-brain can incorporate the fact that he's losing games because he's not the best player in the NBA night-in, night-out, and so he's making up these absolutely embarrassing excuses. It's childish and people are laughing at him behind his back, and they should be.
 

InstaFace

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Don't get me wrong! He acted like a fool. I don't even need to look at the balance of the fouls to make that judgement call. I was just trying to give an account of his spiraling. I don't think his legacy-brain can incorporate the fact that he's losing games because he's not the best player in the NBA night-in, night-out, and so he's making up these absolutely embarrassing excuses. It's childish and people are laughing at him behind his back, and they should be.
Oh we're in total agreement, I was more just posting to marshal my thoughts for dishing it out to Lakers fans who are still whining about that one play, as if the rest of the game didn't happen.

If I were in more of a mood, I might in turn complain that it took OT and some bad calls to finally snap our losing streak, against the 13th-place team in the West at home. But it's hard to feel good just yelling "Scoreboard!" right now given the team's obvious dysfunction on offense, only part of which can be laid at the prodigious feet of Time Lord and Smart's respective absences.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's falling on deaf ears over here, given:

1. The Grant Williams stepped-out-of-bounds, where he didn't
2. The Westbrook offensive-goaltending where he smacked the rim on his putback off the glass, which went uncalled
3. That call Lebron got halfway through the 4th on Brogdon where they didn't even show it on ESPN but the crowd saw it and booed lustily
4. Getting both challenges wrong - Davis did body Tatum, and even though they overturned the foul on Derrick White (it was a clean strip), they called it a jump ball. So the Lakers get to keep possession on their overturn (which itself was bullshit), but we have to jump ball despite a clear recovery?

And that's just from memory. I'm sure there were other bullshit calls and non-calls benefitting both sides all games. So excuuuuuuse me if I'm not buying it when Lebron acts like all of those don't matter exactly as much as the one on the last play of regulation.
3. You’re assuming that casual Celtics fans booing from far away distances indicate that the ref missed a call? We should try to implement this over replay at home games. :)

4. I don’t know how the clear and immediate recovery rule is applied in the NBA but Tatum didn’t immediately recover the ball…..he reached and slapped it away then retrieved it. Yes, he was going to ultimately gather the ball if there was no whistle but once he slapped the ball away I can see how the ball would have needed to be gathered prior to when he did to satisfy the rule. Also, this wasn’t listed as a missed call on the 2-min report so per the rule they likely got it right.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Don't get me wrong! He acted like a fool. I don't even need to look at the balance of the fouls to make that judgement call. I was just trying to give an account of his spiraling. I don't think his legacy-brain can incorporate the fact that he's losing games because he's not the best player in the NBA night-in, night-out, and so he's making up these absolutely embarrassing excuses. It's childish and people are laughing at him behind his back, and they should be.
This is ridiculous. If this happened to a Celtics player and the game was stolen from us on such an obvious blown call we’d all be on the floor whaling. He just played 40+ min competing and had the win stolen from him…..if he was stoic people would say he doesn’t care about winning and only there for the stats.
 

Jimbodandy

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This is ridiculous. If this happened to a Celtics player and the game was stolen from us on such an obvious blown call we’d all be on the floor whaling. He just played 40+ min competing and had the win stolen from him…..if he was stoic people would say he doesn’t care about winning and only there for the stats.
Win stolen from him.

This is like listening to Raiders fans after the tuck rule game, as they conveniently forget that the Pats scored two more times after video review.

Lebron had a five minute overtime to correct the officials' mistake there and didn't do it. I love him, but man Lakers fans are beyond tedious.
 

Fishy1

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This is ridiculous. If this happened to a Celtics player and the game was stolen from us on such an obvious blown call we’d all be on the floor whaling. He just played 40+ min competing and had the win stolen from him…..if he was stoic people would say he doesn’t care about winning and only there for the stats.
Why is it ridiculous? As others have pointed out, Rob was fouled at the end of game just two games before and didnt react the way Lebron did. There's a big difference between being upset and acting like he did. That Celtics players are capable of the same sort of theatrics doesn't make it any less theatrical. Tatum and Grant's rework makes me cringe too.

Jaylen made a remark earlier this season, IIRC, that he was being targeted for travel calls and that no one was getting as many of those calls as him. I thought it was ridiculous cope at the time, demonstrating a total lack of self-awareness about his struggles with turnovers. And guess what! He's someone I root for!

It's possible to hold multiple thoughts in your head, HRB.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Why is it ridiculous? As others have pointed out, Rob was fouled at the end of game just two games before and didnt react the way Lebron did. There's a big difference between being upset and acting like he did. That Celtics players are capable of the same sort of theatrics doesn't make it any less theatrical. Tatum and Grant's rework makes me cringe too.

Jaylen made a remark earlier this season, IIRC, that he was being targeted for travel calls and that no one was getting as many of those calls as him. I thought it was ridiculous cope at the time, demonstrating a total lack of self-awareness about his struggles with turnovers. And guess what! He's someone I root for!

It's possible to hold multiple thoughts in your head, HRB.
Rob’s play was a 50/50 at best. This was a 100/0. They aren’t comparable so right away your bias is showing.

Edit: Just saw that the 2-min report ruled the Rob no-call was correct so much less than 50/50.
 

Fishy1

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Rob’s play was a 50/50 at best. This was a 100/0. They aren’t comparable so right away your bias is showing.

Edit: Just saw that the 2-min report ruled the Rob no-call was correct so much less than 50/50.
I would argue it's not essential to my argument, and as for showing bias -- it's telling to me that it was the only part of my argument you replied to. I think I've said my piece. Carry on.
 

InstaFace

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3. You’re assuming that casual Celtics fans booing from far away distances indicate that the ref missed a call? We should try to implement this over replay at home games. :)
No, I'm assuming it based on watching the live play on LP VOD about 10 times, because they didn't give us a slow-motion replay. It occurs at almost exactly 2:08:00 if you want to look at it yourself. It's theoretically possible Brogdon got some light leg-to-leg contact, but his arms were 100% clean. The refs had their whistles pre-loaded there, expecting to give Lebron "the usual".

4. I don’t know how the clear and immediate recovery rule is applied in the NBA but Tatum didn’t immediately recover the ball…..he reached and slapped it away then retrieved it. Yes, he was going to ultimately gather the ball if there was no whistle but once he slapped the ball away I can see how the ball would have needed to be gathered prior to when he did to satisfy the rule. Also, this wasn’t listed as a missed call on the 2-min report so per the rule they likely got it right.
Brogdon and Tatum were the 2 closest people to the ball, Davis had no real shot at it. The whistle came immediately, so I know what you're saying, but in no rational universe is that anything but a clear Celtics recovery. Again, feel free to review at 2:23:57.

And let's just say I'm not taking a 2-minute report as some sort of gospel. A league CYA mechanism isn't going to get me to distrust my own eyes and ears.

edit: ...And then there's points 1 and 2 in my original post, which I assume you'll concede, plus the fact that there were surely missed calls on both sides throughout the game that I didn't mention or recall. So I think my underlying point - that Lebron had no basis to whine, nevermind whine as he did, and furthermore that Lakers fans can go pound sand - still holds up.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I would argue it's not essential to my argument, and as for showing bias -- it's telling to me that it was the only part of my argument you replied to. I think I've said my piece. Carry on.
Right bc Jaylen is the only player who works the refs. Good lord when did this place turn into a homer game thread?
 

Fishy1

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Right bc Jaylen is the only player who works the refs. Good lord when did this place turn into a homer game thread?
.... huh?

if you are saying what I think you're saying, then... I think if you actually read my post with any care, you'd see I was saying the exact opposite!
 

HomeRunBaker

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No, I'm assuming it based on watching the live play on LP VOD about 10 times, because they didn't give us a slow-motion replay. It occurs at almost exactly 2:08:00 if you want to look at it yourself. It's theoretically possible Brogdon got some light leg-to-leg contact, but his arms were 100% clean. The refs had their whistles pre-loaded there, expecting to give Lebron "the usual".


Brogdon and Tatum were the 2 closest people to the ball, Davis had no real shot at it. The whistle came immediately, so I know what you're saying, but in no rational universe is that anything but a clear Celtics recovery. Again, feel free to review at 2:23:57.

And let's just say I'm not taking a 2-minute report as some sort of gospel. A league CYA mechanism isn't going to get me to distrust my own eyes and ears.
I was mocking the Brogdon call with the fans reaction. I didn’t see the play. I saw the Tatum play live and several replays. I don’t think we disagree that he recovers the ball without the whistle but by definition of the rule I understand why it was not deemed a clear recovery.

I mean the 2-min report by definition IS the gospel as the league uses it’s rules to determine if the official made the correct or incorrect call.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I was mocking the Brogdon call with the fans reaction. I didn’t see the play. I saw the Tatum play live and several replays. I don’t think we disagree that he recovers the ball without the whistle but by definition of the rule I understand why it was not deemed a clear recovery.

I mean the 2-min report by definition IS the gospel as the league uses it’s rules to determine if the official made the correct or incorrect call.
Yes, though I hope you'd acknowledge there is not 100% fidelity to the 2 min report---while it is pretty honest, and accurate, it also is created with knoweldge the media and fans will intepret it. It's WAY more honest and reliable than the NFL's occasional commentary but I also don't think it is wrong to note that it sometimes describes conclusions which are not necessarily true/fair/consistent with the on-court calls.

Put a different way, we should absolutely give deference to 2MR, and NBA has earned that....but it too is not always indisputable.
 

Euclis20

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Changing gears slightly, I was legitimately shocked that Horford won not one but two jump balls against Davis in the closing minutes of the game. The first after the successful Celtics challenge with 87 seconds left in regulation, and the second at the start of overtime. Davis has a 5 inch edge in wingspan, is 7 years younger and has always been far bouncier. Underrated plays by Al (and more disappearance from Davis) to give the Celtics two extra crunch time possessions.
 

themuddychicken

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The thing about the LeBron drive at the end of regulation that no one is talking about for some dumb reason, is that everyone knows that refs don't blow the whistle in that situation unless it is particularly egregious. There's a reason why everyone shoots jumpshots at the end of games, and that reason is because refs swallow their whistles in that situation. We even have a term for it!

The foul was undeniable, but Tatum didn't grab LeBron's arm, no one took out his legs, no one hit his head, etc. It should have been called, and no one would have complained about that specific call had they called it, but it's also not very far from a call where everyone would be whining about the refs deciding the game instead of letting it go to OT.
 

shoelace

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Rob’s play was a 50/50 at best. This was a 100/0. They aren’t comparable so right away your bias is showing.

Edit: Just saw that the 2-min report ruled the Rob no-call was correct so much less than 50/50.
Haven't you made the exact argument that @themuddychicken makes in the post above when folks have complained about these calls going the other way against the Celtics in the final seconds of games? That refs swallow their whistles in these situations and that you can't rely on getting to the free throw line in this situation? What makes this so different? That it's particularly egregious, to your mind? Or that it's LeBron?
 
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nighthob

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Changing gears slightly, I was legitimately shocked that Horford won not one but two jump balls against Davis in the closing minutes of the game. The first after the successful Celtics challenge with 87 seconds left in regulation, and the second at the start of overtime. Davis has a 5 inch edge in wingspan, is 7 years younger and has always been far bouncier. Underrated plays by Al (and more disappearance from Davis) to give the Celtics two extra crunch time possessions.
The Unibrower is aging rapidly, I truly pity the franchise that signs him to his next contract. Unless it's the Lakers, the Buss family and Laker fans deserve it.