It's the halfway mark. Where we at?

Based on the health of the opening day roster have the Sox performed

  • Much better than you expected?

    Votes: 4 1.2%
  • A little better than you expected?

    Votes: 50 15.2%
  • About the same as you expected?

    Votes: 172 52.4%
  • A little worse than you expected?

    Votes: 97 29.6%
  • Much worse than you expected?

    Votes: 5 1.5%

  • Total voters
    328
  • Poll closed .

Deweys New Stance

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Being swept by the A's would have left TB 20-21 games over .500 and Atlanta roughly 30 games over. If Boston gets swept they drop back below .500 and likely drop a few more games out from the final WC spot.
That's a different argument than "Quality teams don't lose to really bad teams, period".

So the Sox have now beaten Oakland pretty soundly the past two days. Does the good feeling from those wins get negated if they lose 3-2 tomorrow? I am not even that sanguine about their chances of snagging a wild card this year, but they're certainly in the mix. My response to "can they make some noise in the postseason?" is "who knows?" I had little expectations in 2021, and they provided a positive surprise (for me at least).

I'm just pointing out that one weekend series, even against a historically bad team, doesn't tell you anything definitive. They've certainly been maddeningly inconsistent all year, but the broad trend has been positive over the past few weeks, and the emergence of Bello, Duran, Crawford etc makes it not too difficult to think they'll be better post ASB than they were in the 1st half.
 

AB in DC

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The way I would put it is that, if the team has any aspirations to the playoffs, they really need a minimum of 5 wins against Oakland and 4 against Cubs/Mets. That would put them at 54-46 with about a week to go before the Trade Deadline. Anything less than that, and we really should be thinking of them as sellers.
 

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They've certainly been maddeningly inconsistent all year, but the broad trend has been positive over the past few weeks, and the emergence of Bello, Duran, Crawford etc makes it not too difficult to think they'll be better post ASB than they were in the 1st half.
And a much easier schedule
 

scottyno

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If the Sox were a 3-1 favorite in each game (which almost no team ever is in an MLB game) they still wouldn't have been favored to sweep this series
 

beautokyo

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Taylor getting the start tomorrow. Looks like just one inning from him going on what he's done so far this year. I guess just about everyone will be available except todays pitchers. Even though it's Oak., on any given day.....Getting the sweep will bring and continue the confidence building for the 2nd half. Who do you think will follow Taylor?
 

8slim

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The way I would put it is that, if the team has any aspirations to the playoffs, they really need a minimum of 5 wins against Oakland and 4 against Cubs/Mets. That would put them at 54-46 with about a week to go before the Trade Deadline. Anything less than that, and we really should be thinking of them as sellers.
This is really it. The Sox have a tremendous opportunity to position themselves to make a run at a playoff spot. But they gotta beat some mediocre-to-bad teams to do so.

Baseball produces a lot of single game random results, so of course TB can lose a couple games to OAK. That’s not the point though. The Sox can’t afford to suffer that randomness if they want to make the playoffs.
 

chrisfont9

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This is really it. The Sox have a tremendous opportunity to position themselves to make a run at a playoff spot. But they gotta beat some mediocre-to-bad teams to do so.

Baseball produces a lot of single game random results, so of course TB can lose a couple games to OAK. That’s not the point though. The Sox can’t afford to suffer that randomness if they want to make the playoffs.
Feels like they’ve run into a lot of very good pitching all season. It’s not so much the team they are playing. I know they are first in strength of schedule to date but it would be very interesting to see how they rank in strength of opposing SP. not sure how to locate that.
 

Archer1979

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That's a different argument than "Quality teams don't lose to really bad teams, period".

So the Sox have now beaten Oakland pretty soundly the past two days. Does the good feeling from those wins get negated if they lose 3-2 tomorrow? I am not even that sanguine about their chances of snagging a wild card this year, but they're certainly in the mix. My response to "can they make some noise in the postseason?" is "who knows?" I had little expectations in 2021, and they provided a positive surprise (for me at least).

I'm just pointing out that one weekend series, even against a historically bad team, doesn't tell you anything definitive. They've certainly been maddeningly inconsistent all year, but the broad trend has been positive over the past few weeks, and the emergence of Bello, Duran, Crawford etc makes it not too difficult to think they'll be better post ASB than they were in the 1st half.
That's not really the point that SJH was making though. Its, as you say, the maddening inconsistency of this team. Your examples on how Oakland has played successfully against Atlanta and Tampa Bay are normal anomalys that you see in a 162 game season. On the other hand, the Sox have gone 1 - 8 against St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Colorado. Getting swept by Oakland would just be another indicator that this team isn't ready for prime time. That they're handling Oakland isn't really an indicator that they are necessarily ready for prime time, because that's pretty much what everyone else is doing. In other words, in the context of the games already played, getting swept by Oakland has more informational value than the converse. Right now, they're doing what they should be doing.

If the Sox were a 3-1 favorite in each game (which almost no team ever is in an MLB game) they still wouldn't have been favored to sweep this series
I'd have to think now that they've won the first two that they're favored to sweep. No? :)
 

AlNipper49

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What’s cool is the Sox are approximately 5 games behind the Rangers. It probably will not happen but it’s possible they finish in last place in the AL East yet have a better record than any non-AL East team
 

Salem's Lot

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What’s cool is the Sox are approximately 5 games behind the Rangers. It probably will not happen but it’s possible they finish in last place in the AL East yet have a better record than any non-AL East team
But they’re still last in the AL East. If they’re not in a playoff position on July 31st they should be selling for futures.
 

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But they’re still last in the AL East. If they’re not in a playoff position on July 31st they should be selling for futures.
They're also 2 games out of 3rd in the AL East. There is actually a sort of broad picture to look at here.
The direction of this team this year really should depend on the status on the injured players. If some/most of them are back, this team is legit.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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That's not really the point that SJH was making though. Its, as you say, the maddening inconsistency of this team. Your examples on how Oakland has played successfully against Atlanta and Tampa Bay are normal anomalys that you see in a 162 game season. On the other hand, the Sox have gone 1 - 8 against St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Colorado. Getting swept by Oakland would just be another indicator that this team isn't ready for prime time. That they're handling Oakland isn't really an indicator that they are necessarily ready for prime time, because that's pretty much what everyone else is doing. In other words, in the context of the games already played, getting swept by Oakland has more informational value than the converse. Right now, they're doing what they should be doing.



I'd have to think now that they've won the first two that they're favored to sweep. No? :)
What IS then… is the Sox collective W/L against playoff teams then yeah?
 

scottyno

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But they’re still last in the AL East. If they’re not in a playoff position on July 31st they should be selling for futures.
If today was July 31st and they, with the 7th best record in the AL and 2 games out of the playoffs having won 7 of their last 8, with what would be about 60 games left, sold off guys that are actually contributing, people on this board would lose their damn minds
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Selling off seems less important with the emergence of so many in the minors over the past month- it would start to get difficult to roster players acquired in the coming months. Their needs, frontline pitching, seem unlikely to be addressed via deadline deals- and they need Jansen and Martin next year. With Paxton, they can offer the QO, so they will get a return if they lose him. So, yeah, trade Duvall and Kike if you want but other than that, I don’t see the urgency to make any moves.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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If today was July 31st and they, with the 7th best record in the AL and 2 games out of the playoffs having won 7 of their last 8, with what would be about 60 games left, sold off guys that are actually contributing, people on this board would lose their damn minds
And if they didn’t sell off guys who could bring a useful return, people on this board would lose their damn minds.
 

RobertS975

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No contending team needs Duvall or Kike enough to part with a serviceable #3 or #4 starter. That's what the Sox need right now to secure a WC.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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2 back in the last (and 2nd WC spot)…. Only 5 back in the first WC spot. Come on…. This team should not being selling anything other than Kike and Duvall and they won’t be getting much in return
 

chrisfont9

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But they’re still last in the AL East. If they’re not in a playoff position on July 31st they should be selling for futures.
With three WC spots now the entire AL East can make the playoffs. Being a “last place team” has lost all meaning, but it still seems to upset people. I don’t get this.

Also the Rays’ rotation is in its own spot of bother and the division itself is in a state of flux. The Sox have a soft schedule down the stretch, so if they are still within a couple games at the deadline of a playoff spot, then they should behave like a playoff team.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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No contending team needs Duvall or Kike enough to part with a serviceable #3 or #4 starter. That's what the Sox need right now to secure a WC.
If the Sox are seeking a serviceable #3 or #4 starter, they're going to be dealing prospects for him. If they're moving Duvall or Kike, they're going to be getting prospects for them.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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False. A last place team cannot make the playoffs.
I think his point is that being in last place does not automatically equate to out of contention. The Sox are currently in last place while being four games over .500 and two games out of a playoff position with 72 games remaining. Hardly a dire and hopeless position.

But yes, technically a last place team can't be a wildcard.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I think his point is that being in last place does not automatically equate to out of contention. The Sox are currently in last place while being four games over .500 and two games out of a playoff position with 72 games remaining. Hardly a dire and hopeless position.

But yes, technically a last place team can't be a wildcard.
Stupid hypothetical but what if say the Rays finish first, O’s take 1st WC, Astros take 2nd and Sox, Jays and Yankees all tie to finish?
 

snowmanny

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Things can change unpredictably and of course the Red Sox could sneak into the playoffs. On the other hand, I am of the belief that their odds of making a real run in 2024 are better than their odds of making such a run in 2023. I just think they’ve been building to go for it more aggressively next year. Therefore, whatever they do at the trade deadline this year they should not, in my opinion, limit their options/assets going into the off-season; in fact they should maximize them.

Certainly willing to be told why that’s wrong though.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I assume the point of the post is that a "last place team" would still make the playoffs via tiebreaker.

& I guess it depends on how you define the semantics.
That’s what I was wondering…. How a last place team could still make the playoffs.
 

Fishy1

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The optimistic case is simple: they're above .500, they're two games out of a wild card spot, they had the toughest schedule on the front 9, and they're getting back two All-Stars in Chris Sale and Trevor Story, two rotation pieces whose peripherals suggest some bad luck in Whitlock and Houck, and excellent RHP reliever in John Schreiber and another solid LHP in Bleier who should shore up the back half of their bullpen. The offense has been top five and hasn't even seen Devers at full power. Getting your SS back, assuming the UCL is in tip-top shape, a relief ace, and three starters who all had FIPS around 4, all against a much easier second-half schedule -- that's a recipe for a team that could take off and end up in the 90-93 win range. A recipe to make some noise in the playoffs. Even the most pessimistic posters should (I say should) be able to imagine that happening.

The absolute worst case scenario is Sale's arm doesn't recover, Story can't play SS or doesn't even come back this year, Schreiber gets injured again, Bleier is toast, and maybe Houck and Whitlock come back but are actually guys who underperform their peripherals as starters and become 5.00 ERA types. Or maybe Paxton goes down, or Jansen's finally goes kaput. That team still gets an easier back 9 and has a 1/4 chance to make the postseason, where anything can happen. Or all of those things happen and more, - Devers goes down, Turner acquires old-man-itis, Duran's BABIP is .200 in the second-half, and the team falls out of the race for the wild-card. Not likely, but possible.

The middle ground is something like, Sale comes back but only pitches four or five more starts before going down again, Story comes back but has to play 2B, Houck comes back and looks a lot better but Whitlock continues to give up ill-timed gopher balls. Those guys have to be limited to 4-5 innings or so and the team ends up having to do bullpen games to manage them. I would note that that team would likely still be better than the team they're running out there right now, and that team is already above .500 and 2 games out of the wild card. So maybe a 84 win - 88 win team: again, a team that could sneak into the playoffs and make some noise. Teams that have won that few games have gone on to win the world series, after all. So the middle ground case is mildly optimistic, too.

If the chance of them making the playoffs is really 25% as they are presently constructed, you go for it, I think. Maybe you sell of Duvall and Kike for prospects, but you don't deal Paxton. The upside for this team is too high, I think. The last thing we would all want to see if Paxton and Jansen get sold off only for Sale, Story, and Schreiber all to come back and look great.
 

E5 Yaz

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To me, their chances completely revolve around starting pitching. As has been said, we can't presume what we'd get from Sale, Houck and Whitlock when/if they get back. We don't know whether Bello or Paxton will hit an innings wall. Depending on all or most of those to work in their favor is anything but a sure bet.
If they really want to go for this, they might have to trade something of real value to get a solid rotation piece.

It's a bit like last season and, while there are what seem to be favorable schedule factors helping them, that's all on paper at this point. I'm not as worried about the "last place" thing -- if they go for it, they go for it, where they are in the standings at this point doesn't matter. Although I wouldn't count on them continuing to dominate NY and Toronto the rest of the season.

All I don't want to see is a repeat of last season's half-assed trade deadline. Go all in, or don't.
 

Salem's Lot

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By rule?? Or are you pointing out the presence of the Astros in there? Sox are three games behind the Astros.
Yes. The rule that only 3 non division winners make the post season. The last place team in the AL East would have 3 non division winners finish ahead of them, and would be eliminated from post season contention.
 

Niastri

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2 back in the last (and 2nd WC spot)…. Only 5 back in the first WC spot. Come on…. This team should not being selling anything other than Kike and Duvall and they won’t be getting much in return
A couple lottery picks and some addition by subtraction.

It's almost to the point where Bloome needs to trade Kiké just so Cora stops putting him in at short. Although he's done that a lot less lately...

Trading Duvall also opens up more playing time for Yoshida in left, with Duran and Verdugo playing so well.

Our best overall lineup right now.

C Wong
1b Casas
2b (Story) whomever
SS Chang
3b Devers
LF Yoshida
CF Duran
RF Verdugo
DH Turner

As long as those two highly paid veterans are on the roster, Cora is going to play them.
 
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JM3

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Clearing up 40 space has value in itself as it would allow the Sox to bring up some of their better Minor League relievers (Guerrero/Politi/Nail/Fernandez) to replace the fungible guys who are there because they don't mind losing them (Garza/Scott/Jacques/Ort).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Clearing up 40 space has value in itself as it would allow the Sox to bring up some of their better Minor League relievers (Guerrero/Politi/Nail/Fernandez) to replace the fungible guys who are there because they don't mind losing them (Garza/Scott/Jacques/Ort).
This is probably something that can be accomplished in the off-season too. None of those guys need to be rushed on the big league roster this season unless things really start going wrong. If they're clearing 40-man spots in the immediate future, it will more likely be to get guys like Story, Sale, and Schreiber back from the 60-day IL.
 

richgedman'sghost

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But they’re still last in the AL East. If they’re not in a playoff position on July 31st they should be selling for futures.
I think it depends on how far out of the playoffs they are on July 31st. If they're more than 5 games out then by all means sell. But if they're 1 game out or a half game out then just try to trade Duvall Kike and Jensen but don't do a full sell off
I know you are a Bruins fan. If the Bruins were a point out of the playoffs at the NHL trade deadline, would you advocate a full sell off?
 

JM3

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This is probably something that can be accomplished in the off-season too. None of those guys need to be rushed on the big league roster this season unless things really start going wrong. If they're clearing 40-man spots in the immediate future, it will more likely be to get guys like Story, Sale, and Schreiber back from the 60-day IL.
Generally yeah, but they are all higher leverage guys than the one's they have been running out there & it would have helped the Sox if they could have used them instead. But with 47 guys on the 40 already, it's impossible to add guys like that who would have been able to provide a small marginal increase in short term results at the risk of losing them for next year.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think it depends on how far out of the playoffs they are on July 31st. If they're more than 5 games out then by all means sell. But if they're 1 game out or a half game out then just try to trade Duvall Kike and Jensen but don't do a full sell off
I know you are a Bruins fan. If the Bruins were a point out of the playoffs at the NHL trade deadline, would you advocate a full sell off?
So what's the threshold for them to be buyers at the deadline, fully in a playoff spot?

If they're within reach of a wildcard spot in the days before August 1, they absolutely shouldn't be trading Jansen. Duvall and Kike can probably still be moved even in a buy-mode, in part because they might just need the roster spots for acquisitions and/or returns to health like Story.
 

BringBackMo

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I see zero chance that the Sox part with any significant prospects at the trade deadline regardless of their playoff situation. As I’ve argued several times, Bloom’s strategy during this stealth rebuild is to construct high-variance MLB rosters with approximately a 25 percent chance of making the playoffs, 50 percent chance of season-long mediocrity, and 25 percent chance of a train wreck.

Part and parcel of this strategy is that you pretty much dance with the gal you brought to the ball. Bloom tinkered at the 2021 deadline and gave up a marginal prospect, but not one of any long term consequence, to upgrade a team that was probably better than this one. That is the absolute most I see him investing at this deadline. And I completely agree with that approach. Keep building the system.

If you hate that plan then you don’t like this team and you are hyper focused on inconsistency, poor defense, and losing against substandard teams. If you like that plan, you see five rookies contributing regularly, two with a chance to be stars; Verdugo having a breakout season; Yoshida looking like a bargain for years to come; Duran emerging as a potential everyday player; a burgeoning minor league system; and a very interesting big league club that has a chance (25 percent?) to get on a roll if things go right. You’re also more likely to forgive lapses against poor teams because, well, that’s the kind of thing that happens with young teams that are learning how to win.
 

Archer1979

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To me, their chances completely revolve around starting pitching. As has been said, we can't presume what we'd get from Sale, Houck and Whitlock when/if they get back. We don't know whether Bello or Paxton will hit an innings wall. Depending on all or most of those to work in their favor is anything but a sure bet.
If they really want to go for this, they might have to trade something of real value to get a solid rotation piece.

It's a bit like last season and, while there are what seem to be favorable schedule factors helping them, that's all on paper at this point. I'm not as worried about the "last place" thing -- if they go for it, they go for it, where they are in the standings at this point doesn't matter. Although I wouldn't count on them continuing to dominate NY and Toronto the rest of the season.

All I don't want to see is a repeat of last season's half-assed trade deadline. Go all in, or don't.
Agreed. If they're still within spitting distance, I'd prefer them to either stand pat or trade for marginal players without giving anyone up of actual long-term value to the organization (like Bobby Dalbec). Going all in is only going to set them back for future runs.

I said, not too long ago, that they should go full fire sale. But, damn, they played themselves back into the race. They're close enough that if they still go full fire sale, it will send a VERY bad look to the fans, media, and most importantly the players.

I'm sure E5 will remember this, but a while back (1997), the White Sox bailed on the season at the trading deadline in what could have been a winnable race (which included a pitcher that eventually made his way to the Red Sox). They caught a lot of crap for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade
 

Archer1979

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What IS then… is the Sox collective W/L against playoff teams then yeah?
Bear in mind that the original comparison was along of the lines that Oakland has played Atlanta and TB tough, so why would it be telling if they played Boston tough. It's really the same symptom for two very different things and requires context.

For TB and Oakland (both who have played consistently well TB"s recent losing streak notwithstanding) to have issues with Oakland is a normal anomaly that you see over a 162 game season. Kind of like if someone mixes drinks the wrong way at a bar, you'll find them barfing on someone's bumper outside. You know its a momentary blip that will clear up once someone calls for an Uber and gets him home.

For Boston to have issues with Oakland, it would be another indicator of how inconsistent they are. Kind of like if that same person was barfing on someone's bumper but instead was pummelled with a bat to the head. Then, you're calling for an ambulance.

Who could forget Bobby Howry!
Who did you think I was referring to??? :cool:
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I'm sure E5 will remember this, but a while back (1997), the White Sox bailed on the season at the trading deadline in what could have been a winnable race (which included a pitcher that eventually made his way to the Red Sox). They caught a lot of crap for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade
I was trying to remember what year that was the other day. I guess I'm getting to that age because I could have sworn it was in the last 10-15 years, not 27 years ago. They were in third place in the division, 4.5 games out when they traded their DH who was sporting a 120 OPS+ (Harold Baines) for a PTBNL. Two days later, having cut the division deficit to 3 games, they made the white flag trade.

Ultimately the front office didn't see the wisdom in trying to chase down the Cleveland team, one that was headed to the World Series. But they finished only 6.5 back by the end of the year, so they didn't exactly go into tank mode. I imagine the players that were left took it personally.
 

Archer1979

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I was trying to remember what year that was the other day. I guess I'm getting to that age because I could have sworn it was in the last 10-15 years, not 27 years ago. They were in third place in the division, 4.5 games out when they traded their DH who was sporting a 120 OPS+ (Harold Baines) for a PTBNL. Two days later, having cut the division deficit to 3 games, they made the white flag trade.

Ultimately the front office didn't see the wisdom in trying to chase down the Cleveland team, one that was headed to the World Series. But they finished only 6.5 back by the end of the year, so they didn't exactly go into tank mode. I imagine the players that were left took it personally.
It took me awhile to find it. If you google Chicago Fire Sale. You'll get pages of speculating on what's going to go down in 2023.

I had to really refine my search criteria. Thankfully I could spell Reinsdorf off the top of my head.
 

BaseballJones

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Ok so the "unofficial" first "half" of the season is done.

AL East
TB 58-35 --
Bal 53-35 -2.5
Tor 50-41 -7.0
NY 49-42 -8.0
Bos 48-43 -9.0

AL WC
Bal 53-35 +5
Tor 50-41 --
Hou 50-41 --
NY 49-42 -1.0
Bos 48-43 -2.0
Sea 45-44 -4.0
LAA 45-46 -5.0

Thumbs Up:
- Yoshida
- Duran
- Bello
- Turner
- Casas (rising)
- Verdugo
- Devers (not exploding but still putting up solid power numbers)
- Martin
- Jansen
- Pivetta (has been great in relief)
- Paxton

Thumbs Down:
- Hernandez
- Arroyo
- Houck
- Whitlock
- Kluber
- Sale (pitched great but more injuries)

Hoping to get healthier in the second half. Hoping Story, Sale, Kluber, Whitlock, and Houck all return and perform well. This team absolutely has a chance.
 

joe dokes

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This little post ASB stretch before any of Sale,Story, Houck or Whitlock returns is really where it all will shake out.
At least they have Chang.