Xavier Tillman to Celtics for 2 2nd round picks

greek_gawd_of_walks

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I’d also like Dunn, which is funny because I was vehemently anti Dunn in that draft.

He’s obviously a monster defender, but he’s become a good playmaker, and his outside shot has gotten good enough.
I've come around on this idea moreso than I thought I would.

I undervalued Dunn. He's productive on the offensive with a really good assist to turnover ratio, rebounds a bit and defends like a maniac. I'm a little skeptical that the shooting is permanently improved given that the sample size is just over 100 attempts, but even if it isn't, he might still be worth trading for.
 

benhogan

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The TOP8 can all shoot. One ball

A defense-first BIG on a minimum contract was a no-brainer

Now go get Caruso (or settle for Dunn) and start strangle holding teams under a 100
 

Euclis20

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Oh I know. At times I love me a good highlight reel. Other times it kinda falls flat. Felt the one above showed some excellent defense, but also just a bunch of flat out misses by the offense. That's all
Fair enough. He grades out as an A level rim protector (we saw plenty of that, even when he gets beaten), and the major thing I get from that highlight reel is that he's unlikely to get embarrassed on the perimeter. That's more than enough from a 3rd center and potential 9th man.
 

bosockboy

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The TOP8 can all shoot. One ball

A defense-first BIG on a minimum contract was a no-brainer

Now go get Caruso (or settle for Dunn) and start strangle holding teams under a 100
Build a realistic Caruso trade, what goes out and how does the money match up. He’s definitely the brass ring for us.
 

pjheff

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The Celtics have so much shooting and playmaking that they probably feel confident in their ability to integrate an agile big with bad offense.
Is it bad offense or bad shooting? It seems like he can screen, handle, and pass.

I really like the acquisition, using fungible assets to fill a hole in the roster with a bigger 4/smallball 5. He also shows a commitment on the part of Stevens to keep adding and the ownership to keep spending. Now it’s on the players to keep winning.
 

Auger34

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Jed Zeppelin

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One of the things I thought the team was really missing last season was the kind of bench guy who you could always trust to come in and put in 100% on the defensive end no matter what and help shift the energy and help slow down opposing offenses without having to force Tatum to give 100% on both ends for 40+ minutes. Really like this move with that in mind. Oshae has some of that energy too but not the same level and versatility of defender.
 

the moops

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One of the things I thought the team was really missing last season was the kind of bench guy who you could always trust to come in and put in 100% on the defensive end no matter what and help shift the energy and help slow down opposing offenses without having to force Tatum to give 100% on both ends for 40+ minutes. Really like this move with that in mind. Oshae has some of that energy too but not the same level and versatility of defender.
Wasn't that Grant Williams last year?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tillman kinda seems like Al Horford if Al couldn't shoot. Or more accurately, a beefier, shorter Al Horford that can't shoot...
In other words he's a defensively strong, switchable big who has a high BB IQ -but no shot- on the offensive side of the floor.
This is the best description I can think of for Tillman. Well done.
 

benhogan

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Build a realistic Caruso trade, what goes out and how does the money match up. He’s definitely the brass ring for us.
Caruso has been a pipe dream around here for weeks.

PP + Svi + Banton + 2 Firsts works money-wise, but can easily be beaten. The Celtics won't pay more than that for a bench player.
Plus Chicago is playing better, and will probably keep him.

Dunn is more realistic. Not sure he'd be happy coming off the bench. He has a starting gig and needs a contract this summer.
 

the moops

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Dunn is more realistic. Not sure he'd be happy coming off the bench. He has a starting gig and needs a contract this summer.
He may be starting but he is still playing like less than 20 minutes a night. Maybe playing 12-15 minutes a night on a championship team would be even better for his future prospects?
 

benhogan

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He may be starting but he is still playing like less than 20 minutes a night. Maybe playing 12-15 minutes a night on a championship team would be even better for his future prospects?
I dunno...HRB and a bunch of PC fans around here would have a much better read than me
 

benhogan

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Bench BIGs salary/acquisition cost
Horford $10MM / Kemba's carcass + a First
Kornet $2.4M/ free
Tillman $1.9MM / 2 seconds + fodder
Queta 2-way / free

That's $14.3MM in salary for an elite bench unit from the 5.

Acq cost for cusp All-Star Center Kristap Porzingis: a 2nd + salary fodder

The ABCs of building a Championship roster around 2 All-Star WINGs.
Brad can't stop making good deals, he's a GM machine.
 

Auger34

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Bench BIGs salary/acquisition cost
Horford $10MM / Kemba's carcass + a First
Kornet $2.4M/ free
Tillman $1.9MM / 2 seconds + fodder
Queta 2-way / free

That's $14.3MM in salary for an elite bench unit from the 5.

Acq cost for cusp All-Star Center Kristap Porzingis: a 2nd + salary fodder

The ABCs of building a Championship roster around 2 All-Star WINGs.
Brad can't stop making good deals, he's a GM machine.
Love Porzingis and Horford. Really like Tillman.

I think Kornet and Queta are a product of a really good roster around them. I’m not taking too many victory laps about having them on the roster to be honest

EDIT: I do appreciate that the acquisition cost was so low but I think that’s the case with most 3rd and 4th string centers
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Wasn't that Grant Williams last year?
Theoretically yes. I’ll be honest my recollection is that I didn’t love his defensive work last year and thought his foot speed especially had nosedived.

Hard to say though, there were big defensive problems all over last season so maybe I’m being unfair. Can’t say I was ever excited to see him isolated on the perimeter in space.
 

Red Averages

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Love Porzingis and Horford. Really like Tillman.

I think Kornet and Queta are a product of a really good roster around them. I’m not taking too many victory laps about having them on the roster to be honest

EDIT: I do appreciate that the acquisition cost was so low but I think that’s the case with most 3rd and 4th string centers
The point is if you want to carry 3-4 max or near max guys you’re going to have to acquire the surrounding parts for peanuts and pay them close to min salaries. The front office is borderline heroic* in this 3-4 year conversion from the Kemba/Kyrie years.

*they will become heroes when they bring a banner.
 

Auger34

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The point is if you want to carry 3-4 max or near max guys you’re going to have to acquire the surrounding parts for peanuts and pay them close to min salaries. The front office is borderline heroic* in this 3-4 year conversion from the Kemba/Kyrie years.

*they will become heroes when they bring a banner.
Yeah….I understood the point. I think my response conveyed that I understood the point.

Like I said I appreciate the acquisition cost is low for Quets and Kornet but most 4th and 5th string center are minimum players. They are a decent amount better than your typical 4th and 5th string centers but I still maintain that they aren’t worth taking victory laps for
 

Red Averages

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Yeah….I understood the point. I think my response conveyed that I understood the point.

Like I said I appreciate the acquisition cost is low for Quets and Kornet but most 4th and 5th string center are minimum players. They are a decent amount better than your typical 4th and 5th string centers but I still maintain that they aren’t worth taking victory laps for
Again the point is the total unit. But you knew that.
 

Auger34

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Again the point is the total unit. But you knew that.
I guess we are talking past each other or you just didn’t bother to read the original post that you responded to.

I specifically said “I love Porzingis and Horford. I really like Tillman”

I was merely commenting on Kornet and Queta. That’s it. I’ve been consistent about that with 3 posts.

I also mentioned that I appreciated the low acquisition cost of Queta and Kornet…to which you responded that what matters is the minimum salaries.

I feel like I am coming off like an ass but I really don’t think you took the time to read what I said since everything you said I explicitly acknowledged but your first response seemed to be correcting me or trying to fill me in?

Maybe I am misreading the start of “the point is”. If I am, I apologize because that’s on me
 

Red Averages

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I guess we are talking past each other or you just didn’t bother to read the original post that you responded to.

I specifically said “I love Porzingis and Horford. I really like Tillman”

I was merely commenting on Kornet and Queta. That’s it. I’ve been consistent about that with 3 posts.

I also mentioned that I appreciated the low acquisition cost of Queta and Kornet…to which you responded that what matters is the minimum salaries.

I feel like I am coming off like an ass but I really don’t think you took the time to read what I said since everything you said I explicitly acknowledged but your first response seemed to be correcting me or trying to fill me in?

Maybe I am misreading the start of “the point is”. If I am, I apologize because that’s on me
You’re turning a positive into a negative for no reason. The entire point of the post was the cheap acquisitions and total allocation to the bigs is a huge value add for a team trying to win a championship for multiple years. You then picked the two bottom guys and said they should cost nothing. And have now continued to come back saying they should be worth nothing multiple times.
The Bucks pay 18.1mm for Portis, Jae and Robin Lopez.
The Cavs pay 17mm for Niang, Wade and Jones.
The Knicks pay 20.1mm for Robinson and Precious (2 guys)
The 76ers pay 35.5mm for Morris, Reed and Covington.

these are just the other eastern conference playoff teams I quickly looked at. It’s a huge competitive advantage. And some of the Celtics guys who are worth nothing have tremendous situational value.
 

TripleOT

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Tillman has had a rough year shooting, but his team has been a disaster.

Last season, when they were good and had more of a steady rotation he shot 47.6% on jumpers, and was 74% at the rim

Getting Tillman for a guy who even sucked in garbage time plus a couple of threes was a great move. He can be trusted to credibly play some rotation minutes in the playoffs if necessary. TPugh guy, and a smart player.

Time to move Sri or Blanton for Lonnie Walker and some seconds. Get the new guys oriented, and cut back by a couple of minutes on the two rotation bigs, and maybe save a couple of minutes off the Jays’ legs as the regular season closes out.
 

Auger34

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You’re turning a positive into a negative for no reason. The entire point of the post was the cheap acquisitions and total allocation to the bigs is a huge value add for a team trying to win a championship for multiple years. You then picked the two bottom guys and said they should cost nothing. And have now continued to come back saying they should be worth nothing multiple times.
The Bucks pay 18.1mm for Portis, Jae and Robin Lopez.
The Cavs pay 17mm for Niang, Wade and Jones.
The Knicks pay 20.1mm for Robinson and Precious (2 guys)
The 76ers pay 35.5mm for Morris, Reed and Covington.

these are just the other eastern conference playoff teams I quickly looked at. It’s a huge competitive advantage. And some of the Celtics guys who are worth nothing have tremendous situational value.
Wow ok.

You’ve misread my post multiple times. No need to continue. We are talking past each other.

I didn’t turn a positive into a negative at all. Those comparisons you are making are not apples to apples at all. Jae Crowder is not a center. Neither is George’s Niang. Neither is Robert Covington. Neither is Morris. But they raise the salary in your “quick search” so that proves the point that you think you are making to make me look bad…which, again, I never made.

I didn’t pick out two bottom guys, they are referenced in the post. I honestly think you have to try to look at my post and make it into some sort of negative or say that I am missing the point when you’re continually being incredibly obtuse.

For the last time here, Luke Kornet and Queta are good 4th and 5th string centers. I think their productivity and profile is raised by playing on a very good roster.

Brad deserves a shit ton of credit for getting Porzingis and Horford and for making a roster that can accentuate Kornet and Queta. He deserves credit for acquiring Tillman. He’s done a fucking incredible job as the lead decision maker
 
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JakeRae

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Tillman is a really nice addition. He gives them depth and matchup flexibility at the 5 for the rest of the regular season and particularly the playoffs. He is a rotation-caliber player who has very different strengths from Kornet. As someone who thinks Queta has been a huge positive surprise but is at least a year away from being a player who can see the floor in the playoffs (if he ever gets there), Tillman fills a real depth “need” this team had and cost us virtually nothing.
 

Imbricus

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Once again, great move. How is Brad not GM of the year yet? When you can get a just-turned-25 year old, 6-foot-7 banger with a 7-foot-2-inch wingspan and very elite defensive skills, a little more upside possible, for a couple of second rounders, how do you not make that deal? I'm more optimistic about a guy with elite D developing decent offense than a guy with elite offense developing some D. Every trade deadline is like Christmas now!
 

KingChre

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Wow ok.

You’ve misread my post multiple times. No need to continue. We are talking past each other.

I didn’t turn a positive into a negative at all. Those comparisons you are making are not apples to apples at all. Jae Crowder is not a center. Neither is George’s Niang. Neither is Robert Covington. Neither is Morris. But they raise the salary in your “quick search” so that proves the point that you think you are making to make me look bad…which, again, I never made.

I didn’t pick out two bottom guys, they are referenced in the post. I honestly think you have to try to look at my post and make it into some sort of negative or say that I am missing the point when you’re continually being incredibly obtuse.

For the last time here, Luke Kornet and Queta are good 4th and 5th string centers. I think their productivity and profile is raised by playing on a very good roster.

Brad deserves a shit ton of credit for getting Porzingis and Horford and for making a roster that can accentuate Kornet and Queta. He deserves credit for acquiring Tillman. He’s done a fucking incredible job as the lead decision maker
I have no dog in this fight and agree you both are mainly in sync, but I would suggest that when you referenced not taking victory laps over Kornet and Queta, that might have been construed as a negative spin. He aptly pointed out its no small feat to get the production they've both provided for minimum cost, and Stevens should be applauded for finding them. You seem to agree with that point but probably didn't make that clear initially.

Anyhoo...I absolutely love the Tillman move. He's exactly the type of player that gives the Celtics fits in the playoffs. He's totally viable to play 10 minutes situationally. He's a tough, high IQ player. He reminds me of PJ Tucker but with more switchability, better handle, better passing and unfortunately far, far worse shooting. The fact that he's young and re-signable, coupled with the acquisition cost makes this move an absolute homerun.

Well as much of a homerun as an end of rotation (at best) player could be anyway.
 

lovegtm

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I have no dog in this fight and agree you both are mainly in sync, but I would suggest that when you referenced not taking victory laps over Kornet and Queta, that might have been construed as a negative spin. He aptly pointed out its no small feat to get the production they've both provided for minimum cost, and Stevens should be applauded for finding them. You seem to agree with that point but probably didn't make that clear initially.

Anyhoo...I absolutely love the Tillman move. He's exactly the type of player that gives the Celtics fits in the playoffs. He's totally viable to play 10 minutes situationally. He's a tough, high IQ player. He reminds me of PJ Tucker but with more switchability, better handle, better passing and unfortunately far, far worse shooting. The fact that he's young and re-signable, coupled with the acquisition cost makes this move an absolute homerun.

Well as much of a homerun as an end of rotation (at best) player could be anyway.
He shoots worse than Tucker, but he's functionally much, much bigger, so he can shoot inside better (on a team with offensive talent and good spacing). Tucker is a total non-factor once he gets run off the line, because he's just too small and unathletic.
 

KingChre

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He shoots worse than Tucker, but he's functionally much, much bigger, so he can shoot inside better (on a team with offensive talent and good spacing). Tucker is a total non-factor once he gets run off the line, because he's just too small and unathletic.
100% agree. Should have included that too, thanks for the additional info.
 

Devizier

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Getting these guys who hopefully won’t play much in the playoffs is a great way to ensure that they won’t play much in the playoffs.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Tillman kinda seems like Al Horford if Al couldn't shoot. Or more accurately, a beefier, shorter Al Horford that can't shoot...
In other words he's a defensively strong, switchable big who has a high BB IQ -but no shot- on the offensive side of the floor.
You probably should add "younger" to that.

The other comp is a bigger Tony Allen.

Without looking anything up, one of the issues with contenders that I see is that they keep cycling through vets at the end of the rotation and don't really try to develop draft picks because (as we've all noted) young players rarely are able to contribute to championship level teams in the NBA. One of the great things about this move - if POBOBS can resign Tillman - is that while he's young, he's played in the playoffs before and he has room to grow.

If they can develop him into a reasonable fascimile of Al, it seems rare that a championship-level team was able to integrate a 25 year old into a productive rotation player or starter on a championship-level team is not something that I can think of happening many times before.

Maybe it happens more than I think but if the Cs can keep him, this infusion of youth is great for the team IMO.
 

lovegtm

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If they can develop him into a reasonable fascimile of Al, it seems rare that a championship-level team was able to integrate a 25 year old into a productive rotation player or starter on a championship-level team is not something that I can think of happening many times before.
It's not super-common, and he was 26, but this is almost exactly what GSW did with Wiggins in their recent title run. So you are right, it can be done and is a win when it happens.
 

benhogan

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You probably should add "younger" to that.

The other comp is a bigger Tony Allen.

Without looking anything up, one of the issues with contenders that I see is that they keep cycling through vets at the end of the rotation and don't really try to develop draft picks because (as we've all noted) young players rarely are able to contribute to championship level teams in the NBA. One of the great things about this move - if POBOBS can resign Tillman - is that while he's young, he's played in the playoffs before and he has room to grow.

If they can develop him into a reasonable fascimile of Al, it seems rare that a championship-level team was able to integrate a 25 year old into a productive rotation player or starter on a championship-level team is not something that I can think of happening many times before.

Maybe it happens more than I think but if the Cs can keep him, this infusion of youth is great for the team IMO.
+1. Tillman's Bird rights are a nice bonus for a 25-year-old bench player.
The next 30 games + playoffs will determine if Brad wants to keep him for future seasons.

Wouldn't expect X's UFA market to be robust, POINTZ! deficient bench BIGs just don't get paid, unless you're the Pistons a year before RFA with Beef Stew (no need to tell me about all the great things Isaiah Stewart does as a starter for the Pistons :rolleyes: ).

A beefy, switchy 5 with 7'2" wingspan who is a TOP10 defensive Center, surrounded by shooting, has more value to Boston than most teams.

Joel meet Xavier, he's going to up in your business for the next few years.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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A few of Brad's deals have been fair for both sides.
Whereas in Danny's case, it always felt like he had to be the clear winner in a trade.
To put it another way, Brad has been great at hitting singles where Danny was swinging for the fences. The former is more important where BOS is now.
 

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+1. Tillman's Bird rights are a nice bonus for a 25-year-old bench player.
The next 30 games + playoffs will determine if Brad wants to keep him for future seasons.

Wouldn't expect X's UFA market to be robust, POINTZ! deficient bench BIGs just don't get paid, unless you're the Pistons a year before RFA with Beef Stew (no need to tell me about all the great things Isaiah Stewart does as a starter for the Pistons :rolleyes: ).

A beefy, switchy 5 with 7'2" wingspan who is a TOP10 defensive Center, surrounded by shooting, has more value to Boston than most teams.

Joel meet Xavier, he's going to up in your business for the next few years.
Tillman sounds like a sort of hybrid version of the Williamses (Grant and Robert).
 

benhogan

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Tillman sounds like a sort of hybrid version of the Williamses (Grant and Robert).
Yea that's a good analogy

Tillman is a superior BIG defender than Grant and probably matches up better with Joker, Giannis, Embiid, etc

He's probably a TimeLord 2023-level defender with health & more physicality.

On offense as long as he sets solid screens, moves the ball (not a bad handle for a BIG), & cleans up loose boards he should be playable in ~5 minutes per half if need be. If Boston gets any more than that we'll be thrilled
 

Saints Rest

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Yea that's a good analogy

Tillman is a superior BIG defender than Grant and probably matches up better with Joker, Giannis, Embiid, etc

He's probably a TimeLord 2023-level defender with health & more physicality.

On offense as long as he sets solid screens, moves the ball (not a bad handle for a BIG), & cleans up loose boards he should be playable in ~5 minutes per half if need be. If Boston gets any more than that we'll be thrilled
Sounds a lot like what we looked for from TL on offense.
 

benhogan

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Sounds a lot like what we looked for from TL on offense.
a poor man's TimeLord that doesn't offer Rob's vertical spacing or blocks into the 5th row
but more available

Part of me wants Xavier to come on the court and show some Mahorn physicality (screens in the backcourt, hard fouls under the rim, shove opponents that get physical with the JAYs, clothesline Draymond, etc). This team lost a little nasty with Smart.
 

benhogan

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ESPN trade grades (Celtics go an A)

They boast the NBA's best record, rank in the league's top three in both offensive and defensive and have an airtight top-eight rotation when healthy.

The latter two criteria were the lone fault lines in Boston. Centers Kristaps Porzingis and Al Horford have combined to miss 23 games this season, and while Horford's absences are primarily precautionary and the Celtics are being cautious with Porzingis, they can't count on having them throughout every game of an anticipated long playoff run.

It counts as a concern in Boston that the team's lowest on-court net rating for any player comes with third center Luke Kornet in action. The Celtics are still outscoring opponents by 2.7 points per 100 possessions with Kornet, according to NBA Advanced Stats, but amazingly they're at least plus-8.0 with every other player who's seen at least 250 minutes.

Enter Tillman, a proven playoff veteran who started all six games Memphis played last postseason and another six in the Grizzlies' 2021-22 run. If Horford or Porzingis miss a game in the playoffs, or even just get in foul trouble, Joe Mazzulla can turn to Tillman with somewhat more confidence than Kornet.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/38462211/nba-trade-grades-2023-24-breaking-most-impactful-deals
 

slamminsammya

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ESPN trade grades (Celtics go an A)

They boast the NBA's best record, rank in the league's top three in both offensive and defensive and have an airtight top-eight rotation when healthy.

The latter two criteria were the lone fault lines in Boston. Centers Kristaps Porzingis and Al Horford have combined to miss 23 games this season, and while Horford's absences are primarily precautionary and the Celtics are being cautious with Porzingis, they can't count on having them throughout every game of an anticipated long playoff run.

It counts as a concern in Boston that the team's lowest on-court net rating for any player comes with third center Luke Kornet in action. The Celtics are still outscoring opponents by 2.7 points per 100 possessions with Kornet, according to NBA Advanced Stats, but amazingly they're at least plus-8.0 with every other player who's seen at least 250 minutes.

Enter Tillman, a proven playoff veteran who started all six games Memphis played last postseason and another six in the Grizzlies' 2021-22 run. If Horford or Porzingis miss a game in the playoffs, or even just get in foul trouble, Joe Mazzulla can turn to Tillman with somewhat more confidence than Kornet.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/38462211/nba-trade-grades-2023-24-breaking-most-impactful-deals
They didnt come at my man Kornet like that.