What is next for BB?

radsoxfan

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Like the bolded is true, but it's true because everyone you're drafting has zero track record in the NFL - and even picks that are supposed to have a 'high floor' still flame out a lot more often than former all-Pro players do.
For sure, and maybe not a perfect analogy (though I do think Bill could still "flame out" given his age and if he gets in the wrong scenario).

More broadly, I think a 90th% percentile outcome for these coaching hires, while unlikely, is so valuable that is carries a lot of weight in hiring.

For a team on the verge like Dal/Buf/Phi a higher floor coach makes a lot more sense. But the teams with openings so far have a different perspective.
 

Hoya81

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Fair disclosure, wanted to keep Belichick although didn’t feel particularly strongly about it. Certainly have no doubts about his legacy.

I think one thing people are overlooking about Belichick is a lot of owners believe the Ballghazi, Spygate stuff. They think he’s a cheater and an asshole besides. So theres going to be a contingent out there that wants nothing to do with him. I think this came into play with Brady, too.
This is a good point. I remember reading that several owners who were still mad at the Raiders for all of Al Davis’ litigation in the 80’s and voted against them moving back to LA.
 

Cellar-Door

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….and that record is a shit ton better than Raheem Morris.

You’re argument basically boils down to Morris hypothetically gets along better with his GM so he’s a better hire and heavily discounts actual coaching ability
I mean, no it doesn't because at no point did I argue that Morris is a better hire? I pointed out that Vrabel has many of the same reasons for not being employed as Bill Belichick. People keep trying to rope in Morris because they want to point to his poor career HC record from 14 years ago. But the reasons Morris got hired over Bill (and Vrabel) have nothing to do with his HC record, or theirs. NFL owners don't just look at your record at your last stop however long ago it was, they factor in a lot more things than just that. Bill and Vrabel are both guys with success in the past, but less success recently, and a lot of concerns in some of the non-coaching areas. They also arguably both have a decent amount of concerns on field in terms of ability to develop young QBs, but that's likely a secondary concern.

I assume coachng tenure and coaching success are highly correlated, and no teams are out there looking for a coach who will fail.
Sure? That was kind of the point though, that coaches fail at a really high rate, and so if you think a guy is the best coach you should take him even if it means 3 or 4 good years over the guy you think is 2nd best but young.
Now I get the argument that some places the owner isn't really looking to maximize wins short term, that's somewhat reasonable.
 

Reverend

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Fair disclosure, wanted to keep Belichick although didn’t feel particularly strongly about it. Certainly have no doubts about his legacy.

I think one thing people are overlooking about Belichick is a lot of owners believe the Ballghazi, Spygate stuff. They think he’s a cheater and an asshole besides. So theres going to be a contingent out there that wants nothing to do with him. I think this came into play with Brady, too.
This seems like a potentially significant point. Beyond not wanting anything to do with him, aren’t there supposed to be a number who want to actively stick it to him?

What a strange situation; the GOAT can’t get a job.
 

Silverdude2167

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I don't agree. The numbers back me up and do not back you up, of course. Please review the standings and let me know if there was a team who scored less points than the Patriots in 2023.
Why are you posting in this thread? Did BB kick your dog? We get it you don't like him.
 

Silverdude2167

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Why do you take it personally when someone points out the reality?
I just don't understand why you care what is next for BB.

You think he built a shit roster, we went back and forth for months in another thread. It is known, it really doesn't need to be brought into this thread as well.
 
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Raheem Morris aside, perhaps some of the problem Belichick, Vrabel and (much lesser extent because of the circumstances) Carroll have is that the league trend is getting a guy who can be a QB whisperer and develop the team’s franchise QB

It’s such a QB driven league, more than ever before, and also a copycat league, that it wouldn’t surprise me if owners and GM’s are hopping on the “let’s get a guy who can mentor and grow with our new QB”.

How many coaches in the last few hiring cycles have come from the defensive side of the ball and had success? Ryans for sure (how much is due to Stroud being a stud regardless of coaching, or Slowick being as good as hyped who knows). Pierce looks somewhat promising in Las Vegas but most teams who have turned things around have coincided with getting a QB and/or offensive minded coach
 

johnmd20

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I just don't understand why you care what is next for BB.

You think he built a shit roster, we went back and forth for months in another thread. It is known, it really doesn't need to be brought into this thread as well.
The building of the shit roster is precisely the reason why Belichick doesn't have a coaching job at the present time. I would say it's very relevant to this thread.
 

snowmanny

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The building of the shit roster is precisely the reason why Belichick doesn't have a coaching job at the present time. I would say it's very relevant to this thread.
Nobody here knows why he doesn’t have a job.
 

joe dokes

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is it really more of a QB driven league than ever? I remember the deep playoffs featuring almost exclusively elite QBs ten and fifteen years ago.
This is true. But I think that more younger, inexperienced QBs are playing bigger roles now. I haven't t looked at rosters. That's just my sense of QBing.
 

sezwho

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This is true. But I think that more younger, inexperienced QBs are playing bigger roles now. I haven't t looked at rosters. That's just my sense of QBing.
I know it’s impossible, but I’ll bet the best use of Bill could be as one of these young QB/HC team’s Ernie Adams.

He still sees the game better than anyone, but maybe doesn’t have the same time/energy/patience for all the bullshit: pure football.
 

Toe Nash

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There are a lot of valid reasons for teams to be wary of hiring BB:
  1. The Judge/Patricia debacle. I am a process first guy. That decision was gross malpractice. Even setting aside the GM of it all, assembling a staff is (usually) on the coach. BB has never offered (reportedly even to ownership) a cogent explanation for that decision.
    1. 1. Multiple folks have reported that BB is not interested in "coaching coaches" at this point in his career. This is the only logical (if not rationale from the standpoint of the best interests of the team) explanation for hiring Judge and Matty P. If there is truth to reporting that BB wants to work only with people he knows and who know his terminology/methodology, then a team would be hiring a coach definitionally incapable of hiring a quality staff.
I think it is more or less this simple. BB wants to work with his guys and his guys are known around the league as kind of terrible.

We heard that Kraft had a talk with him after 2022 about Patricia / Judge being shit so he went out and got...another guy who he already knew to be OC (and kept Judge around). We spent the entire season wondering and hoping he would step back a bit and listen to more input from younger coordinators, but it seems like he's not interested in that.

If you hire BB, you are getting BB and whoever he brings with him and we have a short list of who those guys are. You then have to make that work with whatever talent you have in the org already and people like McDaniels and Patricia are not exactly what I would describe as modest people willing to set their egos aside.

By the end of the year I was willing to give that another go with all the guys in New England, but Kraft apparently wasn't. It's a whole different thing with a different team where he's only bringing over some guys and I can totally understand other teams not really seeing that as an upgrade even if they think BB is still a great coach on his own.
 

ManicCompression

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Edit- Vrabel is the type of coach that least gets jobs honestly... he's not a playcaller on either side of the ball, he's a motivational guy... other than Tomlin how many of those guys are even left? Teams want scheme technicians now.
Dan Campbell and John Harbaugh leap to mind. That’s half of the championship field. There are pluses and minuses to both strategies. The scheme guys tend to be less big-picture focused and not as good at managing big organizations, the motivational guys are more reliant on coordinators year to year (thinking for example Baltimore moving from Roman to Monken). The dream is hitting on someone who can do both, but I don’t see the inherent value in simply finding some scheme-wonk because of how often they flame out on the personality aspect.
 

brandonchristensen

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Am I weird for being more interested in what BB is doing than what the Pats are doing?

So much movement with the Pats coaching, and I couldn't care less.
 

nattysez

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I know it’s impossible, but I’ll bet the best use of Bill could be as one of these young QB/HC team’s Ernie Adams.

He still sees the game better than anyone, but maybe doesn’t have the same time/energy/patience for all the bullshit: pure football.
I'm not sure it's impossible. The owner says "I'm going to pay you $5m for the season. Every Monday, I want you to have a one-hour call with our head coach and share as many observations as you can about our game film. We all agree that no one is allowed to talk about this publicly."
 

Jinhocho

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I think it is more or less this simple. BB wants to work with his guys and his guys are known around the league as kind of terrible.

We heard that Kraft had a talk with him after 2022 about Patricia / Judge being shit so he went out and got...another guy who he already knew to be OC (and kept Judge around). We spent the entire season wondering and hoping he would step back a bit and listen to more input from younger coordinators, but it seems like he's not interested in that.

If you hire BB, you are getting BB and whoever he brings with him and we have a short list of who those guys are. You then have to make that work with whatever talent you have in the org already and people like McDaniels and Patricia are not exactly what I would describe as modest people willing to set their egos aside.

By the end of the year I was willing to give that another go with all the guys in New England, but Kraft apparently wasn't. It's a whole different thing with a different team where he's only bringing over some guys and I can totally understand other teams not really seeing that as an upgrade even if they think BB is still a great coach on his own.
Except it seems Kraft forced BoB on him.
 

brandonchristensen

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I feel the same way.

he's our last connection to the good ole days, we're just another team now.
Right. I hate to admit it, as I grew up with the Red Sox - I didn't start watching football until I was in the 10th grade and playing football myself. And my dad was a Pats fan, so I just took them up during the Snow Bowl. And it stuck.

So my fandom has never not had Belichick attached.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Am I weird for being more interested in what BB is doing than what the Pats are doing?

So much movement with the Pats coaching, and I couldn't care less.
It’s really interesting — this comes up a lot in various contexts. I don’t really care what Bill does now. I guess I am a laundry guy. Even the record is of borderline interest to me now.

It will be interesting to see. Like will he be different with a new team? I kind of care but really don’t. Fandom is very unique and individual.
 

brandonchristensen

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It’s really interesting — this comes up a lot in various contexts. I don’t really care what Bill does now. I guess I am a laundry guy. Even the record is of borderline interest to me now.

It will be interesting to see. Like will he be different with a new team? I kind of care but really don’t. Fandom is very unique and individual.
How long did you root for them pre-Bill? That has to have a part of it.
 

E5 Yaz

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It’s really interesting — this comes up a lot in various contexts. I don’t really care what Bill does now. I guess I am a laundry guy. Even the record is of borderline interest to me now.

It will be interesting to see. Like will he be different with a new team? I kind of care but really don’t. Fandom is very unique and individual.
Same here. Loved the Belichick years, the Brady years and the bizarre cast of characters that they created. Now I'm interested in what comes next. It won't ever match what we saw for two decades, but'll hold my interest
 

jmanny24

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I think it is more or less this simple. BB wants to work with his guys and his guys are known around the league as kind of terrible.

We heard that Kraft had a talk with him after 2022 about Patricia / Judge being shit so he went out and got...another guy who he already knew to be OC (and kept Judge around). We spent the entire season wondering and hoping he would step back a bit and listen to more input from younger coordinators, but it seems like he's not interested in that.

If you hire BB, you are getting BB and whoever he brings with him and we have a short list of who those guys are. You then have to make that work with whatever talent you have in the org already and people like McDaniels and Patricia are not exactly what I would describe as modest people willing to set their egos aside.

By the end of the year I was willing to give that another go with all the guys in New England, but Kraft apparently wasn't. It's a whole different thing with a different team where he's only bringing over some guys and I can totally understand other teams not really seeing that as an upgrade even if they think BB is still a great coach on his own.
Looking at this and the post Toe quoted, I genuinely wonder if the BB and his operation of the last few years just doesn't have the reputation around the league that those in Patriot fandom think he has (or think he should have).
 

sezwho

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I'm not sure it's impossible. The owner says "I'm going to pay you $5m for the season. Every Monday, I want you to have a one-hour call with our head coach and share as many observations as you can about our game film. We all agree that no one is allowed to talk about this publicly."
That’s actually kind of what I had in mind. Maybe a couple times a week during training camp he walks around and grabs the long snapper for an hour then wanders over to the linebackers in the afternoon. Nothing is going to convince me he couldn’t flip at least one across the season. At least.

Edit - but I get it, media then another crack next year if he doesn’t land somewhere.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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There ya go. It's weird for me. 23 years, more than half my life...all with the same coach. He IS the Patriots for me.
It is interesting to learn at what point we all came in as fans. My first year was Bledsoe’s rookie season. I was very attached to him as a player to the point I thought he got jobbed by the injury and should have started in the SB against the Rams. I’m obviously an idiot and eventually (by the end of that Super Bowl) fell in love with Brady and was devastated when he left to the point I irrationally hate BB for it. As soon as Brady signed with TB I bought my Brady shirt and had a hell of a good time watching him win it all one more time.

I hated when the Cs traded away KG/Pierce and took a couple years to come back to the team after that. I get super attached to the players (I still lament Marcus Smart being gone even though the team is so obviously better off for it), even more so than the teams and certainly more than the coaches. Just how I’m wired and why I would be an even worse executive than MJ and Zeke combined.
 

RedOctober3829

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It is interesting to learn at what point we all came in as fans. My first year was Bledsoe’s rookie season. I was very attached to him as a player to the point I thought he got jobbed by the injury and should have started in the SB against the Rams. I’m obviously an idiot and eventually (by the end of that Super Bowl) fell in love with Brady and was devastated when he left to the point I irrationally hate BB for it. As soon as Brady signed with TB I bought my Brady shirt and had a hell of a good time watching him win it all one more time.

I hated when the Cs traded away KG/Pierce and took a couple years to come back to the team after that. I get super attached to the players (I still lament Marcus Smart being gone even though the team is so obviously better off for it), even more so than the teams and certainly more than the coaches. Just how I’m wired and why I would be an even worse executive than MJ and Zeke combined.
My first year I can remember getting hooked on the Pats was the SB run against GB. I was a kid. So, Brady/Belichick encompassed almost my entire fandom. I grew up loving football, but not really being into the NFL until the early to mid 90's. My first memories of the NFL were honestly the Giants/49ers NFC title game in 1991(?) where all the scoring was FG's. I was 7 years old.
 

brandonchristensen

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It is interesting to learn at what point we all came in as fans. My first year was Bledsoe’s rookie season. I was very attached to him as a player to the point I thought he got jobbed by the injury and should have started in the SB against the Rams. I’m obviously an idiot and eventually (by the end of that Super Bowl) fell in love with Brady and was devastated when he left to the point I irrationally hate BB for it. As soon as Brady signed with TB I bought my Brady shirt and had a hell of a good time watching him win it all one more time.

I hated when the Cs traded away KG/Pierce and took a couple years to come back to the team after that. I get super attached to the players (I still lament Marcus Smart being gone even though the team is so obviously better off for it), even more so than the teams and certainly more than the coaches. Just how I’m wired and why I would be an even worse executive than MJ and Zeke combined.
I think I’m more struggling because the Sox are in a similar directionless state. Players don’t matter anymore - it’s only laundry now. And that only means so much when you don’t have a connection to the players.
 

nattysez

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There ya go. It's weird for me. 23 years, more than half my life...all with the same coach. He IS the Patriots for me.
Yeah, but even for someone whose first Pats memories are from the late 70s, Bill practically feels like a relative. I remember listening to all the "HC of the NYJ" drama at my parents' house during Christmas break of my last year in law school. Most of what I think of as my "adult life" has happened with Bill as the Pats' head coach.
 

brandonchristensen

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Yeah, but even for someone whose first Pats memories are from the late 70s, Bill practically feels like a relative. I remember listening to all the "HC of the NYJ" drama at my parents' house during Christmas break of my last year in law school. Most of what I think of as my "adult life" has happened with Bill as the Pats' head coach.
I feel this. If we hadn’t won a billion times it would be different. To me - ending your career on your own terms is 100% earned. I didn’t watch the team for Kraft. They could sell the team tomorrow and I wouldn’t care.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I grew up on the Pats in the 70s and 80s. I am about the same age as Drew Bledsoe and worshipped him in the 90s before Mo Lewis. I was 29 when they won their first Lombardi and 48 when they won their last. I love BB and will fight anyone who thinks he’s not the GOAT of NFL coaches.

The franchise has been just like every other franchise for a few years now.

Edit: I was on team “BB gets to decide when he’s done” but that was under the assumption that even with a shit roster he’d be able to win 8 games. The product on the field this year was terrible and he’s responsible for it. It was time.
 

DJnVa

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I feel this. If we hadn’t won a billion times it would be different. To me - ending your career on your own terms is 100% earned. I didn’t watch the team for Kraft. They could sell the team tomorrow and I wouldn’t care.
If it wasn't for the Krafts you never would have had the chance to root for the new England Patriots.
 

Hoya81

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If it wasn't for the Krafts you never would have had the chance to root for the new England Patriots.
The Patriots moving to St. Louis is a fascinating what if and raises all sorts interesting questions
  • With St. Louis blocked, does Georgia Frontiere keep the Rams in LA or go for her plan B, which was Baltimore?
  • Does Art Modell still look for a way out of Cleveland?
  • Do openings in 3 of the top 8 media markets(LA, Houston, Boston) trigger an earlier round of expansion and/or relocations?
  • Who do NE fans root for if the NFL doesn’t come back? Giants, Bills etc.
  • Does Kraft try to put together an expansion bid or get out of football altogether?
 

riboflav

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Did the pats hire a/the DC yesterday? A promotion from within the org? Seems a very Bill move. Not a ton of fanfare so far. So hire Mayo from within. Hire DC from within. Let’s see who the OC will be!
 

brandonchristensen

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If it wasn't for the Krafts you never would have had the chance to root for the new England Patriots.
Sure. But they did. And they did a great job putting the winners in place. But now the winners aren’t in place - we have to hope the new ones are a quarter as good.
 

Reardon's Beard

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Did the pats hire a/the DC yesterday? A promotion from within the org? Seems a very Bill move. Not a ton of fanfare so far. So hire Mayo from within. Hire DC from within. Let’s see who the OC will be!
I get the distinct impression few from outside the organization want to come here. That sounds true of the OC position, and probably true of every other spot. Internal hires are going to be the way for now. Maybe it works, but other than Bill leaving (a big one for sure) we seem to be the same people with different titles.
 

Curt S Loew

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The Patriots moving to St. Louis is a fascinating what if and raises all sorts interesting questions
  • With St. Louis blocked, does Georgia Frontiere keep the Rams in LA or go for her plan B, which was Baltimore?
  • Does Art Modell still look for a way out of Cleveland?
  • Do openings in 3 of the top 8 media markets(LA, Houston, Boston) trigger an earlier round of expansion and/or relocations?
  • Who do NE fans root for if the NFL doesn’t come back? Giants, Bills etc.
  • Does Kraft try to put together an expansion bid or get out of football altogether?
Fascinating indeed. I think Frontiere goes to Baltimore and Modell moves the Browns to Boston into a new stadium on the waterfront.
 

54thMA

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I've seen a number of Patriots coaches come and go; was mad when Fairbanks and Parcells skipped town, upset when Meyer was fired (but it worked out just fine with Berry), really not sure how I feel about Belichick being dismissed let's call it.

OTOH, he's the greatest coach in team history, one of the greatest if not the greatest in NFL history, but OTOH, this mess is all his doing, terrible drafts along with mediocre free agent signings, the time had come to move on from him.

Just like when Brady left, I still watched the team, will do the same with a new coach next year.

As others have pointed out, I root for the laundry at the end of the day, have been doing so since 1968, not about to change now.
 

mcpickl

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I get the distinct impression few from outside the organization want to come here. That sounds true of the OC position, and probably true of every other spot. Internal hires are going to be the way for now. Maybe it works, but other than Bill leaving (a big one for sure) we seem to be the same people with different titles.
You think all of those guys they've interviewed from outside the organization actually don't want to come here?

Pretty wild take.
 

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Rex Ryan looked like he was going to get punched by both Tedy and Randy on the ESPN pregame. After telling the audience he shut out Belichick without Brady, he proceeded to tell us Bill can’t coach anymore because he doesn’t understand players only care about Facebook. I hope Bill takes a year off, takes Rex’s job and then comes back the following year.

p.s. Schefter insists Bill was happy to coach only. Not sure any of us believe that and neither did the panel. I imagine it’s somewhere in between with final sign off or with a friendly GM.
 

Hoya81

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Fascinating indeed. I think Frontiere goes to Baltimore and Modell moves the Browns to Boston into a new stadium on the waterfront.
The dynamics might have been different if the team had left town, but it’s hard to see Modell getting the kind of deal from the MA Legislature that he got from Maryland. Even with that sweetheart deal, he was so inept as an owner that the league forced him to sell to Biscotti in 2003.