Viva Lost Vegas: McDaniels fired

[Sox and Rocks]

Except for the fact that Stidham signed with the Broncos first for a total of $10 million over two years, 3 weeks before the Raiders signed Hoyer for 2 years, $4.5 million, so it's more like he picked Hoyer over the rest of the flotsam and jetsam instead. And that "injured DE" (that was drafted 7th) has played in all but one game this year and a total of just over 40% of the snaps, which is 2nd most for edge rushers behind Crosby. Has he had a ton of numbers? No, but he's a rookie and there's a steep learning curve at DE.

It's quite possible, likely, even, that Stidham chose the same basic role and money in Denver as in LV because he didn't want to play for McDaniels.

The bottom line is, one way or another, this is on McDaniels. If he essentially chose Hoyer over Stidham, he was wrong. If he drove Stidham away because of his coaching pedagogics, he was wrong. And if he thought the actual QB in his system doesn't really matter because of him/his system (see the previous quote about a high school QB after jettisoning Cutler), he was wrong.

Again, though, the bigger problem is jettisoning Carr for Jimmy G, which was and is stupid, and not having an offense that can score 20 or more points with all the weapons there.

 

[Toe Nash]

Except for the fact that Stidham signed with the Broncos first for a total of $10 million over two years, 3 weeks before the Raiders signed Hoyer for 2 years, $4.5 million, so it's more like he picked Hoyer over the rest of the flotsam and jetsam instead. And that "injured DE" (that was drafted 7th) has played in all but one game this year and a total of just over 40% of the snaps, which is 2nd most for edge rushers behind Crosby. Has he had a ton of numbers? No, but he's a rookie and there's a steep learning curve at DE.

1. I don't know why Stidham signed with the Broncos but it doesn't reflect well on McDaniels if he chose them over staying in LV considering Jimmy G's injury history.
2. Barnwell wrote this on Wilson: "With Crosby wrecking shop on the other side of the field, Wilson should be enjoying plenty of one-on-ones. But through eight games, Wilson has played 41% of the defensive snaps and has one sack and two knockdowns. Per Pro Football Reference data, he has whiffed on more than 13% of his tackles. And Wilson has six pressures and a pass rush win rate of 5.9% at edge -- 77th out of 83 edge defenders with at least 50 pass-rush attempts this season."

I haven't watched him much and he could turn out to be good but he's not doing much so far for a #7 pick.
Also DE seems far down the list of priorities for LV, and if it was it's only because of the disaster of a signing that was Chandler Jones.

 

[joe dokes]

This is a tangent, but Phillips was actually a decent head coach, even if he wasn't as successful as he was as a coordinator. If you exclude his interim stints, he had a career record of 79-57 and made the playoffs in 5 of his 9 seasons. He doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the epic flameouts like McDaniels.

No, that's fair. Epic flameouts like McD and Urban and Lou Holtz are in another category entirely, separate from "great coordinators who weren't nearly as successful as head coaches."

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The quote after Cutler was a billion years ago, there's not much evidence to think he still believes that. It's far more likely that he jettisoned Carr (who, again, is not good) because Carr couldn't play in his system (which was true), and then brought in Jimmy because he believed he could. The last part is the bit he got wrong.

Derek Carr stinks. Derek Carr has a pretty long career of showing a team will never win anything with him at QB. Getting rid of Carr made perfect sense. The problem is that the replacement was as bad or worse. Honestly THAT'S the similarity with the Cutler situation, Cutler was never gonna be a guy to build around and his subsequent career certainly proved that.

 

[joe dokes]

The quote after Cutler was a billion years ago, there's not much evidence to think he still believes that. It's far more likely that he jettisoned Carr (who, again, is not good) because Carr couldn't play in his system (which was true), and then brought in Jimmy because he believed he could. The last part is the bit he got wrong.

So you're saying that BO'B is going to convince BB to trade Mac for Jimmy because both BO'B *and* BB hate the internet and want it to explode?

 

[tims4wins]

For all of his faults, McDaniels went 10+ years between HC stints. I doubt he is the same guy now that he was in 2009-2010. I can't imagine he hasn't matured and gained some humility in that time. He made plenty of mistakes with the Raiders, but I doubt they were because he was arrogant. Similar to how BB has always been unfairly accused of arrogance.

 

[E5 Yaz]

So you're saying that BO'B is going to convince BB to trade Mac for Jimmy because both BO'B *and* BB hate the internet and want it to explode?

Won't happen because BB is being traded to Washington

 

[Sox and Rocks]

The quote after Cutler was a billion years ago, there's not much evidence to think he still believes that. It's far more likely that he jettisoned Carr (who, again, is not good) because Carr couldn't play in his system (which was true), and then brought in Jimmy because he believed he could. The last part is the bit he got wrong.

Derek Carr stinks. Derek Carr has a pretty long career of showing a team will never win anything with him at QB. Getting rid of Carr made perfect sense. The problem is that the replacement was as bad or worse. Honestly THAT'S the similarity with the Cutler situation, Cutler was never gonna be a guy to build around and his subsequent career certainly proved that.

Yes, getting rid of Carr made perfect sense. Replacing him with Jimmy G and Hoyer did not, and that is why McDaniels is, rightfully, unemployed today.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

For all of his faults, McDaniels went 10+ years between HC stints. I doubt he is the same guy now that he was in 2009-2010. I can't imagine he hasn't matured and gained some humility in that time. He made plenty of mistakes with the Raiders, but I doubt they were because he was arrogant. Similar to how BB has always been unfairly accused of arrogance.

If thinking Jimmy G and Hoyer can run your offense in 2023 at a high level isn't arrogant, it's certainly incompetent. I believe it's both.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If thinking Jimmy G and Hoyer can run your offense in 2023 at a high level isn't arrogant, it's certainly incompetent. I believe it's both.

Carr was a check down machine last year. A healthy Jimmy would be reasonably be expected to be better. But Jimmy is broken.

I don't understand the urge to attack a guy's character when he gets a football decision wrong. He was wrong about Jimmy. That's an error in football judgement. It doesn't make him Pol Pot.

 

[joe dokes]

For all of his faults, McDaniels went 10+ years between HC stints. I doubt he is the same guy now that he was in 2009-2010. I can't imagine he hasn't matured and gained some humility in that time. He made plenty of mistakes with the Raiders, but I doubt they were because he was arrogant. Similar to how BB has always been unfairly accused of arrogance.

I hate the word "arrogance" in these circumstances; as personality/leadership is a skill like any other. It's a waste-basket term reporters throw around post-hoc to describe coaches who fail, but who can't pinpoint why. He made some shitty football decisions. Maybe he's a shitty football decision-maker.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I hate the word "arrogance" in these circumstances; as personality/leadership is a skill like any other. It's a waste-basket term reporters throw around post-hoc to describe coaches who fail, but who can't pinpoint why. He made some shitty football decisions. Maybe he's a shitty football decision-maker.

Bill James used to call such terms "bullshit dumps." Anything the fans or media can't strictly categorize goes into the bullshit dump and gets a label like "arrogance" or "cold."

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Jimmy G has been a capable NFL QB, Josh knows him as well as anyone out there, and he’s being paid as a lower end starter. Problem is, he looks physically compromised, and he’s had so many season ending/hampering injuries in recent years, not to mention he had surgery before the season, that it was risky to depend on him. That risk manifested itself early and often.

Carr got a bigger bag of money largely because he’s been on the field more than Jimmy. That’s valuable. But I get not paying him 4/150 with 60 guaranteed if you didn’t love his performance in 2022.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

Jimmy G has been a capable NFL QB, Josh knows him as well as anyone out there, and he’s being paid as a lower end starter. Problem is, he looks physically compromised, and he’s had so many season ending/hampering injuries in recent years, not to mention he had surgery before the season, that it was risky to depend on him. That risk manifested itself early and often.

Carr got a bigger bag of money largely because he’s been on the field more than Jimmy. That’s valuable. But I get not paying him 4/150 with 60 guaranteed if you didn’t love his performance in 2022.

To the bolded, I think the bigger problem than signing Jimmy G in the first place was that he brought him back as a starter, twice, after being injured and clearly ineffective. Add to that bringing in Hoyer, who is essentially the same QB as Jimmy G, as the backup.

 

[NomarsFool]

I don't believe Bill is going to fire Bill O'Brien. There may be some quibbles here and there with the coaching, but it should be obvious that there is a real problem with the personnel on the offensive side of the ball this season; coaching can only do so much.

A more likely scenario is that O'Brien departs for the NCAA, as he did during his last stint here. In that case, I can see Josh being welcomed back into his old role.

I agree he's not going to be fired. The question is, how likely it is that O'Brien would be looking to leave after only one season? Depends of course on whether there are big time programs with openings as HC (I assume that's what he'd be looking for). Second question is, how much would BB try and keep him? I am a bit leery of all the OC changeover.

 

[johnmd20]

Derek Carr stinks. Derek Carr has a pretty long career of showing a team will never win anything with him at QB.

Relax.

Carr is perfectly average. He did make the playoffs in 2021 during the Gruden debacle. He's a perfectly average QB who will make his team average and occasionally slightly above average.

He doesn't stink and saying that is pretty stupid, tbh. If he stinks, what is your rating on Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, Zach Wilson, Desmond Ridder, Jordan Love, and Kenny Pickett?

 

[E5 Yaz]

He doesn't stink and saying that is pretty stupid, tbh. If he stinks, what is your rating on Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, Zach Wilson, Desmond Ridder, Jordan Love, and Kenny Pickett?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlwEwArHZ0k

 

[joe dokes]

Won't happen because BB is being traded to Washington

Worked out well for Vince Lombardi.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Relax.

Carr is perfectly average. He did make the playoffs in 2021 during the Gruden debacle. He's a perfectly average QB who will make his team average and occasionally slightly above average.

He doesn't stink and saying that is pretty stupid, tbh. If he stinks, what is your rating on Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, Zach Wilson, Desmond Ridder, Jordan Love, and Kenny Pickett?

All those guys stink worse.

Carr stinks because you're never ever going to win anything with him and he's had a long career of proving exactly that. He stinks precisely because he's average at best and was due for a big contract and paying him $150 million or whatever would be madness. He's Dalton with better PR.

 

[mauf]

All those guys stink worse.

Carr stinks because you're never ever going to win anything with him and he's had a long career of proving exactly that. He stinks precisely because he's average at best and was due for a big contract and paying him $150 million or whatever would be madness. He's Dalton with better PR.

Carr was arguably a top-10 QB from 2016-20, but he’s 32 years old now; there’s no reason to expect him to recapture a level of play he’s three years removed from. The Raiders were right to move on.

The problem was replacing Carr with JG. Teams act like having an unstable QB situation is the worst-case scenario, but in reality being locked into a mediocre QB for multiple years is the worst-case scenario. If McD had rolled with Brissett or Minshew this season and spent the savings on upgrades elsewhere, he’d still be employed.

 

[luckiestman]

Case closed. The great man theory of history has been proven by the existence of Tom Brady. He dragged this asshole into two head coaching jobs. What an absolute clown Josh is.

View: https://twitter.com/mysportsupdate/status/1721215127796518931?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

 

[ManicCompression]

Case closed. The great man theory of history has been proven by the existence of Tom Brady. He dragged this asshole into two head coaching jobs. What an absolute clown Josh is.

You should watch a Pats game sometime and check out what Brady did for Bill Belichick and Bill O'Brien.

 

[timelysarcasm]

Carr was a check down machine last year. A healthy Jimmy would be reasonably be expected to be better. But Jimmy is broken.

I don't understand the urge to attack a guy's character when he gets a football decision wrong. He was wrong about Jimmy. That's an error in football judgement. It doesn't make him Pol Pot.

That one almost make me choke on my soda, thank you, I needed that laugh.

Totally agree that McDaniels' firing can be discussed purely on football merits without speculating whether he was a douche or anything else.

His personnel moves pretty much failed across the board, starting with trading for Adams. Losing those first two picks was always going to be tough to recover from the, the Raiders' roster was pretty grody, not on-the-cusp and just needing a WR1 stud. He also signed Chandler Jones to a pretty big deal only for him to suck and then have mental health issues - they basically flushed $33 million down the drain on that - and it wasn't even a position of extreme need at the time.

Mark Davis is fortunate that owners can't be fired for terrible moves - Gruden/Mayock and McDaniels/Zeigler is a pretty atrocious 5 years.

 

[johnmd20]

That one almost make me choke on my soda, thank you, I needed that laugh.

Totally agree that McDaniels' firing can be discussed purely on football merits without speculating whether he was a douche or anything else.

His personnel moves pretty much failed across the board, starting with trading for Adams. Losing those first two picks was always going to be tough to recover from the, the Raiders' roster was pretty grody, not on-the-cusp and just needing a WR1 stud. He also signed Chandler Jones to a pretty big deal only for him to suck and then have mental health issues - they basically flushed $33 million down the drain on that - and it wasn't even a position of extreme need at the time.

Mark Davis is fortunate that owners can't be fired for terrible moves - Gruden/Mayock and McDaniels/Zeigler is a pretty atrocious 5 years.

But by all accounts, Josh is an absolute dick head.

 

[Jettisoned]

Case closed. The great man theory of history has been proven by the existence of Tom Brady. He dragged this asshole into two head coaching jobs. What an absolute clown Josh is.

View: https://twitter.com/mysportsupdate/status/1721215127796518931?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

This reads a lot like something that didn't happen.

 

[Cellar-Door]

This reads a lot like something that didn't happen.

If it did he just burned that his source was Pierce and that Pierce is a rat who is shivving the guy who gave him an NFL job after he left his college job during a scandal.

 

[luckiestman]

If it did he just burned that his source was Pierce and that Pierce is a rat who is shivving the guy who gave him an NFL job after he left his college job during a scandal.

Pierce could have told Davis

 

[8slim]

This reads a lot like something that didn't happen.

Yeah, that sounds made up. It doesn’t even make sense.

 

[luckiestman]

Glazer would brazenly lie on Fox?

View: https://twitter.com/jayglazer/status/1721217664390140012?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

 

[8slim]

Glazer would brazenly lie on Fox?

View: https://twitter.com/jayglazer/status/1721217664390140012?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

Now that telling of the story makes more sense. The tweet was horribly written and made no sense.

 

[Jettisoned]

Sports journalists come out and say stupid things all the time. They lose their jobs for being uninteresting, not inaccurate.

I'd buy that someone from the Raiders told him that, but that whole purported exchange sounds too much like something someone made up to look cool. All it's missing is everyone in the Wal-Mart checkout line clapping.

 

[Van Everyman]

I could just as easily imagine Josh saying “Did you have to bring up the Pats-Giants Super Bowl?” to Pierce.

This whole story is weird and feels like piling on. And whatever we think of McDaniels as a HC, Davis is just completely over his skis as an owner.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I’ve never seen such a piling on post-firing as I’m seeing with McDaniels. It’s kinda gross, honestly. Urban Meyer got off more lightly than this.

 

[luckiestman]

I’ve never seen such a piling on post-firing as I’m seeing with McDaniels. It’s kinda gross, honestly. Urban Meyer got off more lightly than this.

You’re going to like this

View: https://twitter.com/loganreever/status/1721327078044491911?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Cute. Let’s see if they win anything more this season.

 

[8slim]

Does long time exposure to Bill cause people to lose the ability to act like a normal human?

Or does Bill attract anti-social weirdos?

Because I simply don’t understand how guys like McDaniels and Patricia can fail so spectacularly at connecting with their players from day one of their head coaching gigs. This shit goes back YEARS, to Mangini and all those other wannabes. It’s bizarre.

 

[patinorange]

You’re going to like this

View: https://twitter.com/loganreever/status/1721327078044491911?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ

They must have got word they locked up a playoff spot.

 

[jsinger121]

Does long time exposure to Bill cause people to lose the ability to act like a normal human?

Or does Bill attract anti-social weirdos?

Because I simply don’t understand how guys like McDaniels and Patricia can fail so spectacularly at connecting with their players from day one of their head coaching gigs. This shit goes back YEARS, to Mangini and all those other wannabes. It’s bizarre.

Don't forget Hardo Joe Judge

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Carr was a check down machine last year. A healthy Jimmy would be reasonably be expected to be better. But Jimmy is broken.

I don't understand the urge to attack a guy's character when he gets a football decision wrong. He was wrong about Jimmy. That's an error in football judgement. It doesn't make him Pol Pot.

There's something to be said for a QB that can get things done. You can call him a checkdown machine, but he threw for 4000+ yards for 4 straight seasons, and was on pace for 5 seasons except he missed 2 games last season. If Mac has taught us anything, it's that we should shrug our shoulders at mediocre. You can win with a mediocre QB. Not with a bad one.

 

[8slim]

Don't forget Hardo Joe Judge

I did forget him!

It’s soooooo weird.

It’s like these dummies don’t realize that being an unapproachable surly prick is not the primary reason why their mentor has been a good head coach.

Or it’s that Bill prefers to hire surly pricks. It’s gotta be that, right?

 

[j-man]

They must have got word they locked up a playoff spot.

the raiders have been this way since the mid 90's but rich gannon gave them a 4 year window 1999-2002 and in 99 they were 8-8

the raiders has always been a outlaw fran
they wont win a super bowl utill brady becomes owner

the giants are the worst team in football let see them do that 2 weeks in a row

 

[Sox and Rocks]

Well, the Raiders scored 24 points in the first half today, with a rookie QB (who McDaniels chose to start washed Brian, 0 for his last 17 starts , Hoyer over), a new head coach, and an offensive coordinator calling plays for the first time ever.

McDaniels' offense didn't put up 20+ points in an entire game this season.

 

[normstalls]

I did forget him!

It’s soooooo weird.

It’s like these dummies don’t realize that being an unapproachable surly prick is not the primary reason why their mentor has been a good head coach.

Or it’s that Bill prefers to hire surly pricks. It’s gotta be that, right?

Asking a great question that I’m so curious about too. Not sure we’ll ever know the answer to it though

 

[Sox and Rocks]

I could just as easily imagine Josh saying “Did you have to bring up the Pats-Giants Super Bowl?” to Pierce.

This whole story is weird and feels like piling on. And whatever we think of McDaniels as a HC, Davis is just completely over his skis as an owner.

Regardless of the verbatim from this meeting, it's clear it wasn't a true "airing of grievances" meeting that would result in changes, as McDaniels sold it, but rather a "Go ahead and complain to my face rather than behind my back, and I'll patronize you" meeting. After all, after this meeting, the facts of which are widely documented, McDaniels went on to coach one of the worst games of his career with no apparent changes to the gameplan and/or playcalling. The results of which, speak for themselves and why he is unemployed today.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

McDaniels' offense didn't put up 20+ points in an entire game this season.

Yeah, but he didn't get to play the Giants, so that's not really a fair comparison.

 

[GPO Man]

For all of his faults, McDaniels went 10+ years between HC stints. I doubt he is the same guy now that he was in 2009-2010. I can't imagine he hasn't matured and gained some humility in that time. He made plenty of mistakes with the Raiders, but I doubt they were because he was arrogant. Similar to how BB has always been unfairly accused of arrogance.

The Raiders aren’t exactly full of high-character players. They want an appeasement coach. Apparently, McDaniels hurt too many feelings there. They want an appeasement coach.

 

[Van Everyman]

Regardless of the verbatim from this meeting, it's clear it wasn't a true "airing of grievances" meeting that would result in changes, as McDaniels sold it, but rather a "Go ahead and complain to my face rather than behind my back, and I'll patronize you" meeting. After all, after this meeting, the facts of which are widely documented, McDaniels went on to coach one of the worst games of his career with no apparent changes to the gameplan and/or playcalling. The results of which, speak for themselves and why he is unemployed today.

Ian Rapoport has a much more complete picture of the team meeting and what followed (it makes no mention of this “Don’t you ever speak ill of the Patriots again!” thing). It sounds like McDaniels was kind of shaken by what players and coaches said and kind of sleepwalked through the next practice. He also notes that Davis pushed for Ziegler and McDaniels to trade Carr, after they had just given him a new deal with a full no-trade,

McDaniels may suck as a HC. But Davis def. sucks as an owner.

 

[Van Everyman]

The latest in “Josh McDaniels Is Horrible And Oh BTW Everyone Else Is Blameless”: apparently David Ziegler wanted CJ Stroud but Josh wanted Bryce Young so they ended up with Jimmy G instead.

View: https://twitter.com/rapsheet/status/1730299987571909095?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Yeah that has more than a whiff of “bill polian had Tom Brady as the number one qb on his board” bullshit.

 

[Justthetippett]

The latest in “Josh McDaniels Is Horrible And Oh BTW Everyone Else Is Blameless”: apparently David Ziegler wanted CJ Stroud but Josh wanted Bryce Young so they ended up with Jimmy G instead.

View: https://twitter.com/rapsheet/status/1730299987571909095?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg

Does Dave Ziegler thinks this helps him? He liked the right QB (maybe), couldn't persuade other decision-makers and now leaks stuff to make himself look better? Sounds like a sweet guy to work with.