USMNT: To Rüssia With Love

[soxfan121]

A chicken shit manager should be able to take chicken shit talent and not get eliminated from this competition.

True. And since the next two games are at home, Klinsmann can get the job done. And then get blasted out of the next WC, letting Gulati make the decision on who's next with the next cycle in mind.

Anyone appointed now isn't getting past the 18 WC and therefore is going to be a shitt-ier option than riding out the Klinsmann/Player era.

Next guy then gets a clean slate with Pulisic and others at the core. And can make a clean break with Dempsey & Howard, etc. Who are really the problem. Everyone agitating for NEW COACH...you also want NEW COACH to stop calling Dempsey and tell Bedoya & Diskerrud to go the fuck away, right?

I mean, let's be clear about what this is.

 

[Vinho Tinto]

I agree with the changing over the guard. When it comes to international football, I developed two fairly steadfast opinions: No non-GKs players 30 or over and managers get just one cycle.

 

[teddykgb]

Only if you start with the assumption that we actually have more talent. There were an astounding amount of over hit passes and long dribbles all day yesterday (Olympic qualifier included). Guatemala were nothing special but at least their midfielders and attackers could control the ball.

Look, obviously the US has a comparatively talented team but all of our talent seems to come with big flaws. Players like Zardes and Yedlin have elite level gifts with speed and power but they constantly play with the ball 3 yards in front of them. Dempsey has the close control almost all of the rest of them lack but has almost no motor and lacks the top end speed and quickness to make anything of any situation he creates.

They all seem to think they can spot and hit long passes but aside from maybe Mix and Bradley they're all sadly mistaken. And while Mix can sometimes stumble into a good longish creative pass he can barely do anything else so you can't really play him either. You can do this for almost any player we send out there in attack. In general, I think only Johnson and usually Cameron show that they can consistently perform the basics required of a footballer in the modern game. Control passes played with pace to feet, move to create triangles, basically accurately pass at an incredibly high percentage... Most of the current crop literally can't do this. I was at least slightly pleased by Nagbe. He did almost nothing last night but at least demonstrated some of the basic skills required.

I know I tend to harp on possession and movement and that's my view of football. If I had to do Jk's job tomorrow I would probably experiment with a back 3 and try to pack the midfield with a bunch of imperfect players and hope they can consistently have available passes so that we can have the ball against these teams. I also think playing 2 outright strikers with Dempsey starting is inherently flawed -- he's a late game sub for me solely because he can do something special. I don't think it's worth carrying him for 90 minutes hoping it'll happen but maybe if the US could actually hold the ball we could find a way to keep him relevant. As long as we are going to hit long balls to nobody he's a complete waste of a spot out there.

Sorry for any typos or logical tail offs -- writing this on phone and can't really redhead it for completeness.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

What point are you trying to make? (Edit: to soxfan121, sorry) If it's that you would like to see the team lose in the fourth round because it might shock the team into some of the systematic approaches you favor or to not play older players, then I guess that's fine.

I guess I view it all as much more simple, and maybe that means I'm overly simplistic. But to me, talent ebbs and flows. Yes, perhaps there are systematic problems. But if that's the case, then we need great coaching more than ever, not less. Because whatever you think the gloom and doom prospects are for US Soccer as currently constituted, if the premise is that getting bounced without making it to the hex would not make it dramatically worse (both in the short and long term) then at least we know where we're disagreeing and can agree to disagree. If an unthinking shirt pull leads to a DOGSO red card early in Columbus on Tuesday, or something equally troublesome, this program will take a serious nose dive back to the stone ages of US Soccer.

If there is a truly a talent problem right now -- systematic, caused by unude reverence for the old guard, whatever -- the answer to me should be having a coach who first does no harm while we sort it. What we have is a coach that exacerbates it.

Again, at the risk of oversimplifying things, national team soccer is different from club soccer. I'm not an Xs and Os guy (and I've been mocked before for making this point, but it continues to be obvious to my untrained eye so I'm going to keep making it until I get convinced otherwise), but when I watch international soccer even when played by the best teams in the world, it looks fundamentally different to me from club soccer. And taking it a step further, when teams play more like what I'm used to when I watch club soccer they tend to overachieve and the teams that play less like it tend to underachieve. Some countries have obvious advantages. Portugal is a small place, many of these players have known each other since they were small, they have groupings that play close to home and see each other regularly, and they typically don't have to go very far during international breaks. Our country is large. Our team plays all over the place. Some players need to fly 11 hours during a one-week international break, and then make a further trip to central america. Soccer is not a sum of its parts game, and compiling the best in a country does not create an all star team. An average MLS team would have played better than the USA did last night.

There are a lot of ways to judge a national team manager. Here's one. Bob Bradley's teams, more often than not, played together in a style that I associate with club football. Mock if you need to, and I'll concede I can't define other than to say I know it when I see it, because frankly even though I've been watching a ton of soccer for a long time, I can't really articulate the difference between a center mid and a left back. Jurgen Klinsmann teams, even at their best, do not play together in a style that I associate with club football, even at the tail ends of competitions where they have played together for a while. Ever changing rosters, players out of position, ill defined roles, his (to me) fucked up obsession with how to "motivate" players, or whatever, has something to do with it.

I've never, I don't think, criticized Klinsmann here or anywhere else, and Gazza was at a time the place here I most often posted substantively. I've never believed he should be fired. Until last night. Not just because of the result. But because there are some serious issues with US soccer right now, and what we need is a manager who will forge some sort of identity and promote stability not chaos wile we sort them out, and he's not that guy.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

I submit Matt Miazga as exhibit A and require that you see that display (yesterday) in the U-23 game before you're allowed to respond.

I watched every minute, and he had a good first half and an iffy second half. But his iffy second half was on stuff that didn't "really matter", e.g. headers. He didn't screw up bigtime in any respect - when he needed to make a tackle, he made it, his back-passes were reliable, he didn't risk a turnover in a vulnerable spot. He didn't shine, but if that represents the floor of his performance, from a guy who is 20 years old, I'm happy to take it.

Of course, your point was that anyone of his skills isn't going to be in MLS. Miazga certainly bolsters your point, and if Chelsea doesn't fuck him over and he develops well he could become the rock that the next generation of the USMNT needs. The counterpoint would be Jordan Morris, who has Bellerin-class speed when he needs it (and zero help from anyone good enough at passing to let him use that to his potential) and of course stayed here in Seattle because daddy.

edit: also,

Next guy then gets a clean slate with Pulisic and others at the core. And can make a clean break with Dempsey & Howard, etc. Who are really the problem. Everyone agitating for NEW COACH...you also want NEW COACH to stop calling Dempsey and tell Bedoya & Diskerrud to go the fuck away, right?

I mean, let's be clear about what this is.

Wait, Dempsey and Howard are the problem? Dempsey created 2 of our 3 really good chances last night with first-class balls to spring Wood (ha!) and Jozy. Howard didn't let a goal kick become a through ball, and managed to get a touch on the shot (though not enough). Howard's not an option beyond 2018, it's true, but he adds value in the interim, as does Dempsey.

(Bedoya I'll give you. I'm not as down on Mix as you are but I'm certainly not as stoked about him as I am about several others)

 

[Cellar-Door]

I watched every minute, and he had a good first half and an iffy second half. But his iffy second half was on stuff that didn't "really matter", e.g. headers. He didn't screw up bigtime in any respect - when he needed to make a tackle, he made it, his back-passes were reliable, he didn't risk a turnover in a vulnerable spot. He didn't shine, but if that represents the floor of his performance, from a guy who is 20 years old, I'm happy to take it.

Of course, your point was that anyone of his skills isn't going to be in MLS. Miazga certainly bolsters your point, and if Chelsea doesn't fuck him over and he develops well he could become the rock that the next generation of the USMNT needs. The counterpoint would be Jordan Morris, who has Bellerin-class speed when he needs it (and zero help from anyone good enough at passing to let him use that to his potential) and of course stayed here in Seattle because daddy.

One question will be, how does Morris develop. So far most of the USMNT players good enough to play in top leagues in MLS hit 3 categories:
1. Young guys who then left: ex. Yedlin
2. Guys who came back to play out the string: Dempsey, Bradley, Jones
3. Guys who failed: Altidore, Shea

Now Dempsey is old, but I don't think any of the returners have been better since coming to MLS, in fact most are worse. Some of that is because most of them were at the end of or past their prime, but also I wonder how much is that development and the overall level of competition in MLS is still not good.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

Sorry for any typos or logical tail offs -- writing this on phone and can't really redhead it for completeness.

No, it was a good post and good food for thought. I hope you brought the redhead to completion though, or whatever you were getting at

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

One question will be, how does Morris develop. So far most of the USMNT players good enough to play in top leagues in MLS hit 3 categories:
1. Young guys who then left: ex. Yedlin
2. Guys who came back to play out the string: Dempsey, Bradley, Jones
3. Guys who failed: Altidore, Shea

Now Dempsey is old, but I don't think any of the returners have been better since coming to MLS, in fact most are worse. Some of that is because most of them were at the end of or past their prime, but also I wonder how much is that development and the overall level of competition in MLS is still not good.

Maybe what we need is a Barca or Bayern-like superteam in MLS where most of our USMNT-quality talent can congregate and get used to playing with each other. I'm not serious, of course, but it should illustrate that the goals of building MLS into a great league and the goals of building the USMNT into a great team are at odds with each other at several junctions.

1. league ownership of the clubs -> no promotion and relegation, salary caps prevent any club from every going on an acquisitive streak
2. retirement-league importing of old european stars -> crowding out of younger talent in favor of short-term marketability
3. MNT getting players to the highest level of competition they're prepared for -> talent drain that prevents MLS from building on itself
4. MNT trying to win now rather than collaboratively build a team that knows how to play together -> players playing out of position -> no long-term cohesion
5. MNT telling prospects to go abroad -> hurts pipeline and reputation of MLS clubs' academies (Though US child-labor law does them no favors)

I could go on, and usually do. But Sunil Gulati (whose class I took in college and whom I think highly of) has a hobson's choice. He can't steadily advocate for what's best for one of MLS or the USMNT, without hurting the other. So in response he's chosen a middle road that doesn't facilitate a virtuous-circle feedback loop of progress for either one.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

I'll start the bidding at Jill Ellis, who I am not a fan of, but has demonstrated the tactical flexibility that @Titans Bastard is suggesting is the biggest problem.

The same Jill Ellis that was stubbornly running the uswnt out of the World Cup until cards forced her to bring in Brian and push Lloyd up the field (which most of us with a rudimentary understanding of the game had been clamoring for)? You want to give Jill Ellis credit for not reverting to stupid, that's fine, but I'm not letting her get credit as genius when she didn't do shit until her hand was forced.

Edit: regarding the topic at hand, it seems pretty clear that JK isn't going to get the job done...I'm still hopeful that perhaps there were so systemic changes that will bear fruit in the future, but he isn't going to do anything as current coach. You can't fire him now, but it may be best to bring in someone else for the Hex.

I'm squarely in the fuck MLS camp- it doesn't serve the usmnt well at all, and leaving that aside, it's a 3rd rate league that has recently pushed up towards second rate status.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Maybe what we need is a Barca or Bayern-like superteam in MLS where most of our USMNT-quality talent can congregate and get used to playing with each other. I'm not serious, of course, but it should illustrate that the goals of building MLS into a great league and the goals of building the USMNT into a great team are at odds with each other at several junctions.

1. league ownership of the clubs -> no promotion and relegation, salary caps prevent any club from every going on an acquisitive streak
2. retirement-league importing of old european stars -> crowding out of younger talent in favor of short-term marketability
3. MNT getting players to the highest level of competition they're prepared for -> talent drain that prevents MLS from building on itself
4. MNT trying to win now rather than collaboratively build a team that knows how to play together -> players playing out of position -> no long-term cohesion
5. MNT telling prospects to go abroad -> hurts pipeline and reputation of MLS clubs' academies (Though US child-labor law does them no favors)

I could go on, and usually do. But Sunil Gulati (whose class I took in college and whom I think highly of) has a hobson's choice. He can't steadily advocate for what's best for one of MLS or the USMNT, without hurting the other. So in response he's chosen a middle road that doesn't facilitate a virtuous-circle feedback loop of progress for either one.

Yeah, it's always going to be a tough road for Sunil. The most obvious solution is to stab MLS owners in the back and open up the club market (mostly through competition among leagues.) Of course labor laws make some youth development tough, but also the USSF doesn't help things by dis-incentivizing non-MLS clubs from developing kids by not sending money along like every other country does.

I also think that USSF is super insular. Gulati and his colleagues play favorites to a ridiculous degree, and it means that all along the development front incompetent people reign, I mean our youth system blows partly due to unique factors and partly because the people in charge of the various levels were chosen for connections over ability.

The problem with Klinsmann is that he was chosen not because he was a good manager, but because he was supposedly going to remake the development structure, and set a clear identity for US soccer, and his connections in Europe were going to be vital.

Good from Klins:
1. Helped recruit dual nationals particularly from Germany.
2. Was able to schedule top opponents
3. Probably got more young US players a look from European clubs.

Bad:
1. He's a shitty tactician
2. He appears to be a shitty manager of people
3. He hasn't changed youth soccer
4. He's facilitated the proliferation of incompetent jackasses like Tab Ramos in the ranks.
5. He never settles on how he wants to do things, he just constantly shifts styles, player positions, etc.

 

[moly99]

EDIT: double post

 

[moly99]

But the Eurocentrism complaint still rings incredibly hollow. Every former "star" who returned to MLS has regressed and in most cases quite a bit.

It would be a lot easier to accept this criticism if the guys playing in Europe like Bedoya haven't been poor as well. Or if our opponents' players weren't also playing in CONCACAF leagues, including MLS.

MLS needs to improve a lot. But those USMNT players have returned to MLS precisely because they are not world beaters. Altidore signed with MLS because he imploded in the Premier League. Dempsey would never have signed with Seattle if he were not told he would be on the bench at Tottenham.

I'm squarely in the fuck MLS camp- it doesn't serve the usmnt well at all, and leaving that aside, it's a 3rd rate league that has recently pushed up towards second rate status.

If you have a way of magically conjuring all-world talent for the USMNT right now then you should use it. Otherwise the long term growth model is the only way to get us those players.

 

[teddykgb]

I wasn't suggesting that those players regressions weren't in some ways or instances inevitable. Jozy completely failed and probably needed to come back. But the one thing this group couldn't afford was regression and it unfortunately happened. It's hard to not wonder what a player like Bradley would be like if he had continued to have to fight for playing time in a better league. Maybe Dempsey doesn't fall off quite so much if he's competing for spots as well. Europe isn't the answer for much of our player pool but I think it is imperative that every player have competition that challenges them to be better. They spend more time in training than they do in matches and playing against other professionals who are good at things our players lack is the only way to really push them.

 

[soxfan121]

The same Jill Ellis that was stubbornly running the uswnt out of the World Cup until cards forced her to bring in Brian and push Lloyd up the field (which most of us with a rudimentary understanding of the game had been clamoring for)? You want to give Jill Ellis credit for not reverting to stupid, that's fine, but I'm not letting her get credit as genius when she didn't do shit until her hand was forced.

So, that was the point - and I'm guilty of making a post that only makes sense with my posting history: i.e. I was one calling for Ellis to be sacked during the last WC and I'm arguing with Titan's Bastard - who made the tactical adjustment point about Klinsmann. I am, and remain, pro-Klinsmann for many reasons, not least of which that he is getting more blame than he deserves for a core than has failed to develop at all since the last world cup, and has, in fact taken several steps backwards. No, Dempsey and Howard weren't the problem yesterday, but those guys have regressed since the last WC because they are aging...and there has been no one to develop behind them.

I'm sorry, but Morris is not that player, and his decision to stay in MLS is disappointing for so many, many reasons. Miazga at Chelsea is cause for optimism, but I also doubt he gets the run he needs to develop, so it isn't a move I'm in love with for the USMNT.

teddy & I are on the same page here - regression has happened everywhere and it isn't all the coach's fault. The tactics haven't helped, but nor do I think they make much difference when the talent is all degrading and getting worse with each call up. Which - as my long history of posting here makes clear - is the fault of MLS and their "bring home the stars" strategery that made guys like Bradley & Altidore, who SHOULD BE our best players, into fat, happy, and complacent guys who have regressed each month since the WC resulting in the team needing an old Clint Dempsey to be their best player.

To me, this is all very obvious. And that Klinsmann is being blamed is both "EASY" and stupid. He sucks tactically. But the "playing out of position complaints" are baseless and misguided. Yedlin is nothing - he isn't a RB, he isn't a RM - he's a shitty excuse for both. So no matter where you play him, he's out of position.

Same with Zardes. Because Dempsey has to play, Zardes has to play out of position. And there's no way around that. Bradley is ALWAYS out of position and that's Bradley's problem, not Klinsmann's fault. The regression of Michael Bradley is the KEY to why this team sucks, but we aren't talking about firing Bradley. Because A.) we already did that, and B.) you can't fire the players. But they are absolutely the problem.

There is no coach in the world who can sort out Michael Bradley or Jozy Altidore. The guys who should be our best players are not. So the team sucks. This seems so obvious...yet, let's fire the coach? That's going to make them better players?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Or both are true. The team's talent is declining and Klinsmann is not very good. Or not very good for this team. Blaming the coach is not inconsistent with looking at the structural problems with the team. They aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe blaming Klinsmann is easy because he is poor. Or put more charitably, maybe he isn't the right coach for a team that has the problems this program has right now.

But the claim that a different coach (call him Alex Ferguson) could not have gotten a win in Guatemala with current assets just doesn't make any sense. And since the current and medium term success of the program depends on beating teams like Gutemala at the moment that's really a shame.

 

[nickandemmasuncle]

Here's a very simple idea: Do the obvious thing and play Bradley as a 6 and Diskerud as a 10 (or better yet, leave Diskerud on the bench and play Nguyen as a 10). Instead, JK did the exact opposite last night, Bradley and Diskerud were out of sorts, and consequently butchered that goal kick that led to the Ruiz goal.

That lineup decision alone, which no other coach in his right mind would have made, led directly to a goal - nevermind the other bizarre decisions he made to put the team behind an 8-ball last night, and never mind his piss-poor squad selections and lineup choices. Klinsmann is basically innovating completely new failure modes that are unthinkable for any marginally competent coach. Can you imagine if Tito played Manny in center and Damon in left back in the day? He'd have been run out of town after about two days of that nonsense. But here we've got Klinsmann doing the soccer equivalent, and he's still got apologists trying to shift blame elsewhere. (We've also got people blaming the talent pool when we're losing to teams that are unquestionably light-years less talented than we are, which is mind-blowing.)

Jason Kreis is available, on the USMNT staff currently, and is a solid coach who understands the landscape in the US. He's the guy who should be coaching on Tuesday, and then from there, we've got 6 months to decide if we want to make it permanent, and to undo the damage Klinsmann has done. But again, it won't happen, because Sunil Gulati is too personally invested in the decision to hire and stick with Klinsmann, and firing him before his contract is up would be a massive loss of face.

So we're going to roll with a brain-dead, stubborn, arrogant, New Age cliche machine who's allergic to accountability, and we're stuck with him to the death, which may occur relatively soon.

 

[moly99]

Which - as my long history of posting here makes clear - is the fault of MLS and their "bring home the stars" strategery that made guys like Bradley & Altidore, who SHOULD BE our best players, into fat, happy, and complacent guys who have regressed each month since the WC resulting in the team needing an old Clint Dempsey to be their best player

MLS has no ability to force a player to come back. Jozy Altidore, Dempsey, Bradley, et al chose MLS because European teams did not want them badly. If Altidore had a decent offer from an English team he would not be in MLS.

When there is a legitimate star American player and that player chooses MLS over Europe I will agree with the criticism that the league is holding that guy back. But the fact of the matter is that there are very, very few American players who would be more than fringe players on bottom of the table Premier League teams. And the few who do have greater potential (like Miazga) are going to find their way to Europe.

Beyond that, there is the obvious logical problem that Guatemala's best players are also in MLS or their own shitty CONCACAF league that is even worse than MLS. So if MLS automatically makes players decline, why haven't players like Marco Pappa been similarly affected?

 

[soxfan121]

MLS has no ability to force a player to come back. Jozy Altidore, Dempsey, Bradley, et al chose MLS because European teams did not want them badly. If Altidore had a decent offer from an English team he would not be in MLS.

I will pay you three times what you are worth to come play for my team. Interested?

I mean, "no ability" is a terrible overstatement. "Force" - you're right, no one forced those guys to take 3x or even 10x what they are worth elsewhere and "come home" where it is just easier to play, live, visit your family, etc.

If Altidore got the same money offered to him in Europe (anywhere in Europe) we could keep having this conversation. But c'mon man. This is EASY.

 

[soxfan121]

Or both are true. The team's talent is declining and Klinsmann is not very good. Or not very good for this team. Blaming the coach is not inconsistent with looking at the structural problems with the team. They aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe blaming Klinsmann is easy because he is poor. Or put more charitably, maybe he isn't the right coach for a team that has the problems this program has right now.

But the claim that a different coach (call him Alex Ferguson) could not have gotten a win in Guatemala with current assets just doesn't make any sense. And since the current and medium term success of the program depends on beating teams like Gutemala at the moment that's really a shame.

1. This is an entirely reasonable take.

2. Yeah, there's no doubt a coach out there who can assemble these (declining) parts into something that beats Guatemala. But as I've stated as the B. point - who is that guy, and is he willing to take on this project? So while I agree in principle, I disagree that in practice the USMNT could find a better coach between now and the WC. I'm all ears on names that are realistic. IIRC, you're a Bielsa guy -right? (or am I mixing you up with Cellar Door, who certainly is, and since you're both excellent posters in this forum, I apologize if I've f'ed that up)

I've no doubt Sir Bacon Nose could get this team to qualify, and advance out of the Group Stage in 2018. A better coach may well "fix" many issues. But who that is, and whether he (or she?) would work for the USMNT under the current situation HAS TO BE part of the calculus of "do we fire Klinsmann?"

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

What's funny is that--unless I'm woefully mistaken--we actually have an unprecedented amount of young talent overseas, but it's sort of a bridge year+ until those guys are more ready, so a few crucial injuries at the wrong time were bound to make things look awful.

Basically it feels like we're in the unfortunate "oh fuck we still have to play Jeff Agoos?" stage.

 

[Cellar-Door]

MLS has no ability to force a player to come back. Jozy Altidore, Dempsey, Bradley, et al chose MLS because European teams did not want them badly. If Altidore had a decent offer from an English team he would not be in MLS.

When there is a legitimate star American player and that player chooses MLS over Europe I will agree with the criticism that the league is holding that guy back. But the fact of the matter is that there are very, very few American players who would be more than fringe players on bottom of the table Premier League teams. And the few who do have greater potential (like Miazga) are going to find their way to Europe.

Beyond that, there is the obvious logical problem that Guatemala's best players are also in MLS or their own shitty CONCACAF league that is even worse than MLS. So if MLS automatically makes players decline, why haven't players like Marco Pappa been similarly affected?

Thoughts:
1. There were offers, they were just for less money. Bradley could have stayed in Serie A, Dempsey had interested teams in EPL, not sure about Jozy, but probably some lesser team would take him (bottom of La Liga, Portugal, Holland) They chose MLS for the money (and maybe to be close to home).
2. Guatemala sucks, Marco Pappa also sucks, MLS is his level, he was released by an Eredivisie team and MLS was his best offer.
3. Nobody is saying MLS is the sole, or even primary reason we lost to Guatemala, they are saying that our talent pool is mediocre and having many of the better guys in it playing in MLS isn't getting the most out of them. Maximizing your talent is the key to winning, and MLS doesn't develop talent well.
4. There are many other reasons the team is struggling, and a major one is Klinsmann's blind dart system of positioning, roster construction and tactics from game to game.

 

[soxfan121]

@Cellar-Door is, and has been, one of the best posters in this forum because of posts like that one.

ETA: Jed's point is really well taken. Given this team is going to win the next two (at home) and qualify, this is definitely "Ricardo Clark, again!?" territory.

 

[moly99]

I mean, "no ability" is a terrible overstatement. "Force" - you're right, no one forced those guys to take 3x or even 10x what they are worth elsewhere and "come home" where it is just easier to play, live, visit your family, etc.

If Altidore got the same money offered to him in Europe (anywhere in Europe) we could keep having this conversation. But c'mon man. This is EASY.

The Premier League has far more spending power than MLS. In 2014 Manchester United had far more than twice the wage bill than every team in MLS combined even with the designated players. (I haven't checked it since then, but I assume it hasn't changed.)

It's certainly true that MLS offered Jozy Altidore far more than any European team did. But that's precisely because European teams don't value Jozy Altidore very highly. If they did, MLS would not be able to compete with them, designated player rules or not.

 

[soxfan121]

If my bull had udders, it would be a cow.

OK...yes, the EPL is richer. And no EPL team wanted Altidore. And MLS was willing to overpay Altidore because he is a USMNT "star" and MLS thinks that is the most important factor in growing their league at home - having big names.

What is your point? Because you've made mine, we aren't arguing, we're in heated agreement. Altidore sucks and is overpaid and MLS being repsonsible for Altidore being overpaid is a pretty logical conclusion - no?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

1. This is an entirely reasonable take.

2. Yeah, there's no doubt a coach out there who can assemble these (declining) parts into something that beats Guatemala. But as I've stated as the B. point - who is that guy, and is he willing to take on this project? So while I agree in principle, I disagree that in practice the USMNT could find a better coach between now and the WC. I'm all ears on names that are realistic. IIRC, you're a Bielsa guy -right? (or am I mixing you up with Cellar Door, who certainly is, and since you're both excellent posters in this forum, I apologize if I've f'ed that up)

I've no doubt Sir Bacon Nose could get this team to qualify, and advance out of the Group Stage in 2018. A better coach may well "fix" many issues. But who that is, and whether he (or she?) would work for the USMNT under the current situation HAS TO BE part of the calculus of "do we fire Klinsmann?"

Yeah, it does, no doubt. I just don't know the candidates like you and TB and CD and others posting here would, so I will take it as an article of faith that there's no good answer at the moment. As posted above, my view that he's not the right fit is barely 24 hours old so I'm still getting comfortable with it. Just bummed I guess that we're so perilously close to a scenario where change for change's sake alone may become necessary without regard to the alternatives. Maybe this is a silly comparison, but it kind of sort of worked for Mexico in the short term.

 

[nickandemmasuncle]

Another uncomfortable truth is that even if you think getting players to Europe is our #1 priority, MLS, together with a national team coach who's willing to call up in-form MLS players, remains essential for achieving that goal. Last I checked, EPL teams weren't falling all over themselves to sign a young stud named Clint Dempsey back in 2004 because he was lighting the world on fire with the Furman Paladins. He was some anonymous JAG who got drafted by the Revs (five spots behind a guy who was most recently seen playing against me at a shitty weekend warrior tournament), ended up kicking ass in MLS, got called up to the NT based on his performance in MLS, impressed people at the World Cup, and parlayed that into a long spell in England and the distinction of being one of the greatest American field players ever.

Does Clint Dempsey happen if Klinsmann is our coach in the mid-2000s instead of Bruce Arena? Who knows? Along the same lines, so many other guys who made it over to Europe would have never, ever done so if they hadn't done well in MLS and subsequently been called up to the national team and received the exposure that comes with that - McBride, DaMarcus Beasley, and Bocanegra are the other big ones, but then also Mathis, Kljestan, Hejduk, Vanney, and Convey.

Obscurity > MLS > National Team > Europe has been a pretty damn useful pathway for getting guys to solid European clubs for more than a decade now, if that's your thing. Klinsmann has largely shut down that pathway, and then whined about the dearth of guys playing in Europe.

Maybe what we need is a Barca or Bayern-like superteam in MLS where most of our USMNT-quality talent can congregate and get used to playing with each other. I'm not serious, of course, but it should illustrate that the goals of building MLS into a great league and the goals of building the USMNT into a great team are at odds with each other at several junctions.

You may or may not be aware of this, but this was actually tried back in the NASL days. It went about as well as you'd expect.

 

[Titans Bastard]

He's no better than Bob Bradley, who not only had the same problem, but had 20+ years of up-close scouting with which to help guide his decision? ;-)

OK, fire the coach peeps - who should be the manager for our next game(s)? And "anyone" is not a valid answer. The manager must be 1.) get-table for the USA soccer program (so fuck right off with your Bielsa fetish, he ain't taking on this pile of shit), and 2.) not a nepotism pick or a recycled/re-tread (so, no Arena, no Bradley).

I believe that 2/3 of the pool of current MLS managers would be a clear improvement over Klinsmann. I'm not saying all of them would be an ideal pick, but it's not hard to improve on a guy like Jürgen, who is more politician than manager and whose bag of magic tricks has run out. Gregg Berhalter, Oscar Pareja, and Peter Vermes would be at the top of my list. (Pareja is actually my dream candidate for Tab Ramos' youth technical director job.)

But one shouldn't be limited to the pool of MLS managers. There are TONS of managers worldwide who are better than Klinsmann and any number of them would be happy to take on a NT gig like this. We're not talking about Bielsa. You don't need much to improve on JK.

Sir Alex Ferguson couldn't get this shitty bunch of players to be less shitty.

The problem, as always, is the talent. The talent has fallen off the table, and rolled into a waterfall, where it has gone over the cliff and fallen into the abyss.

But I'm ok if we also fire the coach. His stupid ain't helping matters. I just wouldn't expect firing the coach to do anything, except satisfy some of the more impatient fans. To illustrate, firing Klinsmann isn't going to make Dempsey less OLD and SHITTY. It isn't going to help Tim Howard regain the form he had in 2012; I mean, not even Roberto Martinez thought that was remotely possible. And firing Klinsmann will do fuck-all to address the Bedoya problem. Maybe the next coach leaves him off the roster entirely in favor of... WHO, exactly?

Let's consider Alejandro Bedoya. Hasn't really been effective for the US in recent times. And yet -- he's killing it in Ligue 1 for a club in contention for a Europa League spot. Over the last couple of months, he's been one of the most in-form US players for a club that is doing pretty well in a top five league in Europe [genuflect]. So the real question we should be asking ourselves is why even in-form players look terrible under Klinsmann. Instead, you assume that the players look bad for NT, so they must suck.

The talent pool is what it is. The manager can't change it. The technical director can't change it, not for years. So all we should be evaluating is whether Klinsmann is making the most out of the current talent pool. And even a blind man can see that he's utterly failing to do so.

It's not just an MLS thing. Liga MX players look bad. Euro-based players look bad. Everyone looks bad. It's really hard to get to the conclusion that all the US struggles are on US players when players are regularly underperforming for the NT relative to club performance. The team looks totally rudderless and players are routinely used out of position or given idiotic roles (Mix as DM).

I mean, Guatemala started two players who have failed to crack the 18 for their MLS team this season, including a rookie who has never played a pro match in his life. They started a rotational starter from a third division team in Germany. But yup - it's the talent.

It's Klinsi-logic. Jürgen cannot fail, he can only be failed. Seriously @soxfan121, there's plenty of room to acknowledge what is in front of our noses without being forced to bow down before the Don and kiss Garber's ring.

In re: T_B's post above: If Sunil grows a pair I don't know who he's going to hire that's going to fix our shit approach to football. We are never going to be anything as a footballing country if we continue to play this defend and lump it forward style. We can probably agree at this point that JK said all the right things about this but hasn't been able to actually fix it. But I'm still not seeing a prospective US Manager who is going to do anything but continue to play very similar shit tactics.

I just want a manager who can make the most of the given US player pool right now. Forget revolutionizing the US style, we need a manager who is competent enough to coach a team that can beat inferior CONCACAF talent. Klinsmann is not competent enough to do so. We're now being regularly outplayed by shittier teams, even on home soil.

Klinsmann's "revolution" right now is like Bora Milutinovic without the results. It's depressing. We're dealing with a manager who is well below replacement level and people are throwing their hands up because we don't have a shot at Jurgen Klopp or whoever.

 

[moly99]

What is your point? Because you've made mine, we aren't arguing, we're in heated agreement. Altidore sucks and is overpaid and MLS being repsonsible for Altidore being overpaid is a pretty logical conclusion - no?

My point is that MLS is not responsible for Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore, et al not being elite players. Maybe they would be 10% better if they had stayed in Europe, but a 10% improvement on Jozy Altidore still equals a poor player.

I am tired of people arguing for a short term fix via scapegoating one thing. Our player pool is mediocre, our national team manager is mediocre, our federation is mediocre and our domestic league is mediocre. We need long term improvement in all areas.

 

[Infield Infidel]

One thing everyone should have learned after the last 10 mos of world football is that if, for whatever reason, players lose faith in the manager, chances are they will listlessly underperform. If it can happen to Jose Mourinho, it can happen to anyone.

I honestly don't even blame JK at this point, he's been coaching like a headless chicken but it's really on Gulati. He set the precedent that 2nd place in the Gold Cup isn't good enough to keep the job, then kept the job for a manager who finished 4th. The players do not play hard for him because there is no end in sight for playing for him. While morally speaking flag country honor should have them playing all-American balls out, we've all mailed it in for bosses we've disliked.

As far as other managers, Miguel Herrera has said he'd consider the job http://www.espnfc.us/blog/the-toe-poke/65/post/2675033/miguel-herrera-open-to-coaching-the-united-states. He understands CONCACAF and players shuttling in from overseas, and also turned around a Mexico side in short order that was in a slump similar to ours. He also knows our biggest rival inside out (if we even get to play them). Not sure he'd be my first choice but there are managers interested.

As far as talent, this is as usual the second-most talented side in the region. Threatening to not make it to the hex is an abomination.

 

[soxfan121]

IThere are TONS of managers worldwide who are better than Klinsmann and any number of them would be happy to take on a NT gig like this. We're not talking about Bielsa. You don't need much to improve on JK.


Let's consider Alejandro Bedoya. Hasn't really been effective for the US in recent times. And yet -- he's killing it in Ligue 1 for a club in contention for a Europa League spot. Over the last couple of months, he's been one of the most in-form US players for a club that is doing pretty well in a top five league in Europe [genuflect]. So the real question we should be asking ourselves is why even in-form players look terrible under Klinsmann. Instead, you assume that the players look bad for NT, so they must suck.

The talent pool is what it is. The manager can't change it. The technical director can't change it, not for years. So all we should be evaluating is whether Klinsmann is making the most out of the current talent pool. And even a blind man can see that he's utterly failing to do so.

It's not just an MLS thing. Liga MX players look bad. Euro-based players look bad. Everyone looks bad. It's really hard to get to the conclusion that all the US struggles are on US players when players are regularly underperforming for the NT relative to club performance. The team looks totally rudderless and players are routinely used out of position or given idiotic roles (Mix as DM).

I mean, Guatemala started two players who have failed to crack the 18 for their MLS team this season, including a rookie who has never played a pro match in his life. They started a rotational starter from a third division team in Germany. But yup - it's the talent.

It's Klinsi-logic. Jürgen cannot fail, he can only be failed. Seriously @soxfan121, there's plenty of room to acknowledge what is in front of our noses without being forced to bow down before the Don and kiss Garber's ring.

OK, I'm sold. This is a much better, more nuanced argument than "fire the coach" - this is a reason to fire the coach. FIRE the coach. I'm on-baord.

Thanks TB - as usual, your work in this forum is top notch and helps me (a dummy) understand the game better.

If it can happen to Jose Mourinho, it can happen to anyone.

OK, this drives the point home with such ferocity and accuracy I tip over the king and concede the game. Well said, II.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Zusi and Pulisic have been added to the roster for Tuesday's game. Besler (concussion) and Johnson (groin) have returned to their clubs.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Side note: Columbus central midfielder Tony Tchani, who made his US debut in January, is now cap-tied to Cameroon after appearing in an AFCON qualifier.

 

[teddykgb]

I believe that 2/3 of the pool of current MLS managers would be a clear improvement over Klinsmann. I'm not saying all of them would be an ideal pick, but it's not hard to improve on a guy like Jürgen, who is more politician than manager and whose bag of magic tricks has run out. Gregg Berhalter, Oscar Pareja, and Peter Vermes would be at the top of my list. (Pareja is actually my dream candidate for Tab Ramos' youth technical director job.)

But one shouldn't be limited to the pool of MLS managers. There are TONS of managers worldwide who are better than Klinsmann and any number of them would be happy to take on a NT gig like this. We're not talking about Bielsa. You don't need much to improve on JK.



Let's consider Alejandro Bedoya. Hasn't really been effective for the US in recent times. And yet -- he's killing it in Ligue 1 for a club in contention for a Europa League spot. Over the last couple of months, he's been one of the most in-form US players for a club that is doing pretty well in a top five league in Europe [genuflect]. So the real question we should be asking ourselves is why even in-form players look terrible under Klinsmann. Instead, you assume that the players look bad for NT, so they must suck.

The talent pool is what it is. The manager can't change it. The technical director can't change it, not for years. So all we should be evaluating is whether Klinsmann is making the most out of the current talent pool. And even a blind man can see that he's utterly failing to do so.

It's not just an MLS thing. Liga MX players look bad. Euro-based players look bad. Everyone looks bad. It's really hard to get to the conclusion that all the US struggles are on US players when players are regularly underperforming for the NT relative to club performance. The team looks totally rudderless and players are routinely used out of position or given idiotic roles (Mix as DM).

I mean, Guatemala started two players who have failed to crack the 18 for their MLS team this season, including a rookie who has never played a pro match in his life. They started a rotational starter from a third division team in Germany. But yup - it's the talent.

It's Klinsi-logic. Jürgen cannot fail, he can only be failed. Seriously @soxfan121, there's plenty of room to acknowledge what is in front of our noses without being forced to bow down before the Don and kiss Garber's ring.



I just want a manager who can make the most of the given US player pool right now. Forget revolutionizing the US style, we need a manager who is competent enough to coach a team that can beat inferior CONCACAF talent. Klinsmann is not competent enough to do so. We're now being regularly outplayed by shittier teams, even on home soil.

Klinsmann's "revolution" right now is like Bora Milutinovic without the results. It's depressing. We're dealing with a manager who is well below replacement level and people are throwing their hands up because we don't have a shot at Jurgen Klopp or whoever.

I can't forget revolutionizing the US style. If the solution is a rurun of Bruce Arena, count me out. Yes, we need to be qualifying for the World Cup. Yes, Klinsmann needs to do a better job. I'm not sure if if it's really possible for us to regress right now but this idea that "any manager" could put the team in a better position to win is not something I support. Yes, there are tactics we could try to adopt to get us further and even through the hex but playing this small time, small minded football is necessarily limiting when we get any further than CONCACAF. I refuse to be satisfied with just making it and bowing out early all the time because we can't play a higher level of football.

I still think our talent is being vastly overstated. When you have a really shallow pool you start playing players out of position in order to try to get as much talent on the pitch as possible. Without a doubt, this has not proven to be a workable strategy thus far. But at the same time, there are still precious few names being floated out there as players who would have "solved" whatever problems we are suffering from. On most days, the US grinds out a result against Guatemala on the balance of the chances they created and the chances they conceded. But on this day, they make two big errors and are punished for them while they repeatedly fail to convert their own chances. This is football, it happens to every team in the world from time to time and the US has for the last decade and a half or so been more often than not the team who gets the result in this manner in matches outside of CONCACAF. I'm far more concerned by the lack of cohesion, the lack of ideas, the lack of basic footballing capabilities. Maybe Pulisic can tilt the side a bit and get us on the front foot more. But there are precious few names out there right now who might be able to help us actually gain control of the midfield and dominate these supposed weak teams in CONCACAF. And Beckerman isn't going to do that -- he's just going to break up play more. By now, I had hoped/expected the JK "revolution" to include far more ball playing players and far more control over the matches. I suspected we'd lack enough creativity to consistently break teams down and would suffer plenty of "we dominated them but just couldn't score" type of results but instead we're still wide open playing a very MLS style back and forth match looking for long through balls. It's really ugly, depressing stuff.

 

[Infield Infidel]

 

[Titans Bastard]

I can't forget revolutionizing the US style. If the solution is a rurun of Bruce Arena, count me out. Yes, we need to be qualifying for the World Cup. Yes, Klinsmann needs to do a better job. I'm not sure if if it's really possible for us to regress right now but this idea that "any manager" could put the team in a better position to win is not something I support. Yes, there are tactics we could try to adopt to get us further and even through the hex but playing this small time, small minded football is necessarily limiting when we get any further than CONCACAF. I refuse to be satisfied with just making it and bowing out early all the time because we can't play a higher level of football.

I still think our talent is being vastly overstated. When you have a really shallow pool you start playing players out of position in order to try to get as much talent on the pitch as possible. Without a doubt, this has not proven to be a workable strategy thus far. But at the same time, there are still precious few names being floated out there as players who would have "solved" whatever problems we are suffering from. On most days, the US grinds out a result against Guatemala on the balance of the chances they created and the chances they conceded. But on this day, they make two big errors and are punished for them while they repeatedly fail to convert their own chances. This is football, it happens to every team in the world from time to time and the US has for the last decade and a half or so been more often than not the team who gets the result in this manner in matches outside of CONCACAF. I'm far more concerned by the lack of cohesion, the lack of ideas, the lack of basic footballing capabilities. Maybe Pulisic can tilt the side a bit and get us on the front foot more. But there are precious few names out there right now who might be able to help us actually gain control of the midfield and dominate these supposed weak teams in CONCACAF. And Beckerman isn't going to do that -- he's just going to break up play more. By now, I had hoped/expected the JK "revolution" to include far more ball playing players and far more control over the matches. I suspected we'd lack enough creativity to consistently break teams down and would suffer plenty of "we dominated them but just couldn't score" type of results but instead we're still wide open playing a very MLS style back and forth match looking for long through balls. It's really ugly, depressing stuff.

I find it hard to square your demand for champagne football with your belief that our talent is "vastly overstated". If our talent sucks, it's not at all reasonable to expect the US to play attractive attacking football against all opponents.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Not that this should shock anybody but the Guatemala rent issue has been resolved and Ruiz (and Lopez) will be available.

 

[teddykgb]

I can't forget revolutionizing the US style. If the solution is a rurun of Bruce Arena, count me out. Yes, we need to be qualifying for the World Cup. Yes, Klinsmann needs to do a better job. I'm not sure if if it's really possible for us to regress right now but this idea that "any manager" could put the team in a better position to win is not something I support. Yes, there are tactics we could try to adopt to get us further and even through the hex but playing this small time, small minded football is necessarily limiting when we get any further than CONCACAF. I refuse to be satisfied with just making it and bowing out early all the time because we can't play a higher level of football.

I still think our talent is being vastly overstated. When you have a really shallow pool you start playing players out of position in order to try to get as much talent on the pitch as possible. Without a doubt, this has not proven to be a workable strategy thus far. But at the same time, there are still precious few names being floated out there as players who would have "solved" whatever problems we are suffering from. On most days, the US grinds out a result against Guatemala on the balance of the chances they created and the chances they conceded. But on this day, they make two big errors and are punished for them while they repeatedly fail to convert their own chances. This is football, it happens to every team in the world from time to time and the US has for the last decade and a half or so been more often than not the team who gets the result in this manner in matches outside of CONCACAF. I'm far more concerned by the lack of cohesion, the lack of ideas, the lack of basic footballing capabilities. Maybe Pulisic can tilt the side a bit and get us on the front foot more. But there are precious few names out there right now who might be able to help us actually gain control of the midfield and dominate these supposed weak teams in CONCACAF. And Beckerman isn't going to do that -- he's just going to break up play more. By now, I had hoped/expected the JK "revolution" to include far more ball playing players and far more control over the matches. I suspected we'd lack enough creativity to consistently break teams down and would suffer plenty of "we dominated them but just couldn't score" type of results but instead we're still wide open playing a very MLS style back and forth match looking for long through balls. It's really ugly, depressing stuff.

I'd hardly describe what I'm yearning for as Champagne football. If it is, it's the cheapest champagne you could possibly hope to locate. Possession and proper movement do not necessarily require an overabundance of talent, especially if the teams we're playing are as bad as everyone says they are. But the players selected need to be selected for their ability to achieve this above all else and the coaching must enforce a desire to play this way.

edit: To answer my own question....one of Feilhaber or Nguyen (viva MLS!) probably has to be in the team (viva MLS!) if not both. Feilhaber's form is so up and down (and he's currently injured) that I sort of understand why he has been looked past at times but these players would help us far more in possession. It's a shame Alonso could never get his citizenship sorted out, he would have been wonderful to watch for the NT. Outside of that, it's such a depressing list of American midfielders. We are a country of 300 million people and we can't produce even 5 options for talented close control midfielders. It's beyond depressing.

 

[soxfan121]

Legit question: is Fabian Johnson the best USMNT player in the pool right now?

2nd question: Who is the second best USMNT player in the pool right now? Bedoya, on form? Pulisic on potential? Bradley, on natural talent?

Last question: Is is remotely fair to judge Klinsmann on lineup when he has not had a full healthy/in-form starting XI for almost two years?

I hope I'm being fair with these questions, as I am a USMNT fan, and I don't know the answers. But I want us to win a WC in my lifetime, so whatever that takes - and however the path bends and turns - I'm in favor of, regardless of short term results.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

I'm about to turn 45, and only 6 countries have managed to win one in my lifetime (Germany, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain). If you go back another 20 years, it only adds one other winner (England). It's really, really hard to win the World Cup.

Not everyone can play like Barcelona. There's something to be said for building a defense that is tough to break down and try to hit teams on the counter. I don't mind if we play that way against top teams. That said, I would hope we could play a more positive, attacking style against the Guatemalas and Trinidads of the world.

 

[Infield Infidel]

I think Johnson and Cameron are the two best players, unfortunately they can only cover 2 of 5 different positions they are the best at.

It sucks that Besler and Brooks weren't available. Injuries happen, and I don't have as many qualms about JK's personnel choices v. Guatamala as I do with how they are deployed. I look at an NT like a group of puzzle pieces from different puzzles. They aren't going to fit completely, but there are some basics. A corner piece still needs to go in the corner, and you can only use 4 corners pieces. You can't put together two pieces that have all four sides sticking out. CBs organize the back, we are disorganized at the back, Besler's out, and Cameron is the best CB, so JK puts him at RB? when Yedlin can play there? JK takes so many chances at CB, when Cameron and Besler are the most solid, and the other must play there if one is injured.

I think a lot of it is a hesitancy to put Bradley at DM, where he's probably the strongest out of any sub-30 yr old player. That dictates putting a more offensive guy like Mix there, or a defender like Cameron, who can play that spot but is needed at CB, or old guys like Jones or Beckerman, who should be cycled out or used in a pinch like Beasley was. It also means more attacking midfielders must play DM or outside instead of behind the forwards. Bradley is fine in attack but others are comparable; Bradley is also good at DM and others aren't as comfortable there, which leaves our defenders vulnerable.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

2nd question: Who is the second best USMNT player in the pool right now? Bedoya, on form? Pulisic on potential? Bradley, on natural talent?

From watching him play for Sunderland most weeks, I'd actually argue Yedlin deserves consideration amid that group. He has both the speed, ball skills and pitch awareness to be a consistent threat from RB, which at this point is a premium field position. He lacks the precision passing of Bradley, and is more a follower than a leader in terms of organizing the team's flow on the pitch, but from a pure "diversity and polish of skills" perspective. He also looked far more dangerous even at RM than Wood or Altidore did at F.

And we may know a bit more about Pulisic after Tuesday - given that we need offense and players with some offensive ideas, I wouldn't be surprised if he starts. Whether he's the #10 of the future or not, he may at least be able to outplay Guatemala at this point. And if we go down but learn something about our talent pool for the future, at least that won't be a total loss.

 

[soxfan121]

From watching him play for Sunderland most weeks, I'd actually argue Yedlin deserves consideration amid that group. He has both the speed, ball skills and pitch awareness to be a consistent threat from RB, which at this point is a premium field position. He lacks the precision passing of Bradley, and is more a follower than a leader in terms of organizing the team's flow on the pitch, but from a pure "diversity and polish of skills" perspective. He also looked far more dangerous even at RM than Wood or Altidore did at F.

And we may know a bit more about Pulisic after Tuesday - given that we need offense and players with some offensive ideas, I wouldn't be surprised if he starts. Whether he's the #10 of the future or not, he may at least be able to outplay Guatemala at this point. And if we go down but learn something about our talent pool for the future, at least that won't be a total loss.

Hmmm... I think Yedlin might qualify as the second most potentially talented player - but right now? I think he's a puppy who isn't housebroken. Like, is a RB? No, he is not. He's also not a RM. To be a "Good Player" I think you need to know how to play an actual position. Yedlin doesn't know how to do that... yet. He may well get there. And I haven't seen him recently at Sunderland - if you say he's learned to play the way a RB should play, I'll take your word for it. He's yet to translate that to NT appearances.

However, you've made my point in a backdoor manner - if Pulisic is even in the conversation for best or 2nd best player - the talent pool sucks. Pulisic is our top prospect. We're all baseball guys at the core. What team is any good where the best (or 2nd best) player is a prospect without major league at bats?

Answer: a shitty team. A 90s Royals team.

The coach is a problem. So is the talent.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

Just so I'm not misunderstood: I'm not saying Pulisic is a potential answer to the question "who are the 2 (or 3) most talented USMNT players right now?". I don't think anyone could argue he is, because as you say, he has no real reps upon which to judge him. He has exactly 6 appearances for the Dortmund first team, and they're playing him at midfield (he ain't displacing Aubameyang anytime soon). Promising? Hell yes. Proven? Hell no.

If Pulisic starts on Tuesday, it will be at least 25% about JK making sure he doesn't declare for Croatia (if not 50%), on top of tactically trying to win the game. But I would much rather have Dempsey or even Wood start at CF - if for no other reason than familiarity and comfort with his teammates' playing style.

Our top USMNT players are FJ, Dempsey, Cameron, Yedlin, Howard and Bradley in some order. They are all proven quantities at least at the MLS level, most of them at the top-5 European level, but more importantly proven at the international level. Brooks may soon join that list. Pulisic is a long way off yet.

 

[soxfan121]

Fair point on Pulisic, and I apologize for conflating the two distinct points you were making.

Our top USMNT players are FJ, Dempsey, Cameron, Yedlin, Howard and Bradley in some order. They are all proven quantities at least at the MLS level, most of them at the top-5 European level, but more importantly proven at the international level. Brooks may soon join that list. Pulisic is a long way off yet.

Hmm...this is pretty close to my list. (swap Bradley & Yedlin for reasons already discussed)

THAT SAID...this is the problem. Clint Dempsey is too old to be anyone's #2 player, even Seattle (right, @PrideofShiner?) and Howard has fallen off so much he couldn't hold on to a job that Everton wanted him to hold on to.)

Any game without FJ now is a dicey proposition because he is our "best" player under 30. Michael Bradley is... the most infuriating, frustrating player in our pool.

And Cameron is so damned useful in so many spots that where he plays, the "out of position!" people can get their swerve on.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Michael Bradley is... the most infuriating, frustrating player in our pool.

Who says there isn't good competition for spots in US soccer?

And Cameron is so damned useful in so many spots that where he plays, the "out of position!" people can get their swerve on.

Fair point, though Cameron has been on record as saying he prefers CB and CM over RB and that he feels less comfortable out wide.

 

[soxfan121]

I laughed. Fucking Jozy.

As for Cameron... yep. And were FJ healthy, does he play out wide the other night? It is pretty clear that JK doesn't think much of Yedlin's ability to play Right Back - regardless of recent Sunderland runouts.

So, Cameron gets plugged in wherever JK thinks the weakest spot is - and then he's "out of position".

 

[Titans Bastard]

I'd hardly describe what I'm yearning for as Champagne football. If it is, it's the cheapest champagne you could possibly hope to locate. Possession and proper movement do not necessarily require an overabundance of talent, especially if the teams we're playing are as bad as everyone says they are. But the players selected need to be selected for their ability to achieve this above all else and the coaching must enforce a desire to play this way.

Sure that makes sense to me, but it sounds mostly like an argument against Klinsmann, who is presiding over a team of players who look like they have no idea what to do in his tactical scheme (if you can even call it that). Players can't make the right runs, move properly, and work as a team when it's not clear what the tactics are. What happens then is what we are seeing with the USMNT now - a team that is worse than the sum of its parts, with so many individuals struggling.

Even though Arena and Bradley are only decent managers and not top-shelf ones, their teams at least had a clear plan. Both of them are a clear step up in managerial quality from Klinsmann. I also think it's revisionist history to say that Arena and Bradley exclusively played bunker ball or route 1 football.

That's why I believe that we don't need to somehow recruit a world-class manager to improve upon our current situation. Klinsmann isn't moving us towards any sort of revolution, so we might as well dump him and get someone who can at least get results.

This is our reality now:



It doesn't have to be this way. The talent could be better, but you just can't look at the games where we've lost or been outplayed in CONCACAF lately and point to talent. The argument just doesn't hold up when you look at the players we're going up against. Nor does it pass the eye test. Watching the USMNT play these days is the definition of taking one's medicine. It's painful and not at all enjoyable.

edit: To answer my own question....one of Feilhaber or Nguyen (viva MLS!) probably has to be in the team (viva MLS!) if not both. Feilhaber's form is so up and down (and he's currently injured) that I sort of understand why he has been looked past at times but these players would help us far more in possession. It's a shame Alonso could never get his citizenship sorted out, he would have been wonderful to watch for the NT. Outside of that, it's such a depressing list of American midfielders. We are a country of 300 million people and we can't produce even 5 options for talented close control midfielders. It's beyond depressing.

I think Feilhaber would be useful, but Klinsmann does not like him. (Klinsmann is not the first coach who Benny rubbed the wrong way, it should be noted.) Feilhaber then burned what remained of the bridge a few months ago.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Ten literary heroes lead into their articles after GUA 2-0 USA

Dante Alighieri
GUATEMALA CITY — And I — my head oppressed by horror — said:
“Master, what is it that I hear? Who are
those people so defeated by their pain?”
And he to me: “This miserable way
is taken by the sorry souls of those
who lived without disgrace and without praise.
They now commingle with the coward angels,
the company of those who were not rebels
nor faithful to their God, but stood apart.
The heavens, that their beauty not be lessened,
have cast them out, nor will deep Hell receive them —
even the wicked cannot glory in them.
They are the lost ones in Guatemala
And they are doomed to never return

 

[Schnerres]

Legit question: is Fabian Johnson the best USMNT player in the pool right now?

2nd question: Who is the second best USMNT player in the pool right now? Bedoya, on form? Pulisic on potential? Bradley, on natural talent?

Last question: Is is remotely fair to judge Klinsmann on lineup when he has not had a full healthy/in-form starting XI for almost two years?

I hope I'm being fair with these questions, as I am a USMNT fan, and I don't know the answers. But I want us to win a WC in my lifetime, so whatever that takes - and however the path bends and turns - I'm in favor of, regardless of short term results.

Fabian Johnson is a great player. I don´t know much of the US based players who´ve never been to Europe, but if you had 20 players like him across every position, the USMNT would be a better team.

I doubt Pulisic is the best player for now, but as he´s regularly playing for Dortmund (even as a sub or just featured in the 18man-roster), that means he has huge potential in a very difficult position where the US needs creative attacking players like him. Additionally, i would say it is much harder to get picked for Dortmund´s roster than to get picked for the USMNT, so you should be happy you have such a diamond (and contrary to baseball, he doesn´t need minor league at bats or youth league matches in the U19 to be a great senior team player). It is really hard to predict if he can be a player that elevates others that play around him in USMNT or if he is just someone who benefits from playing in a team that is on a huge run and basically wins 80% of its matches.

I would say if Klinsmann is fired, the next coach wouldn´t achieve anything else. What do you expect? Klinsmann changes too much, yes, so a more cautious approach may lead to a more defensive way to play and slightly better results. "Slightly", as i doubt that friendly results mean anything and the WC result was pretty good for the US team with such an average roster (compared to other teams). I wouldn´t expect anything else than qualifying (which is now a little tough) on a regular basis, then seeing how the draw is and go from there. So going through the WC group in Brazil was very good IMO.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Embarrassed to ask, but google not my friend. What is Jones' status? He can't play internationally until the clears the suspension? And how is that working -- he gets a game credit whenever the Rapids play or is it more complicated?

I'm a bit surprised -- whether it be sirius' soccer channel or the usual Internet stuff -- that while people are bummed about losing to Guatemala and the team's poor play, that nobody is really all that concerned about getting out of this round. Maybe I'm just looking for things to worry about, but I'm pretty worried about it. Has there been a bigger game for US Soccer in recent times? In the last decade? Sure, the world cup games were huge, but nothing comes close to how devastating a loss tomorrow night would be for US Soccer. This is like Manchester United playing a game on the last premier league match day with relegation on the line. Jones may not be in the best shape right now, and may not have more than another few games left in him for the USMNT, but he has grit and physicality that would have been welcome on Friday.