USMNT: To Rüssia With Love

[Titans Bastard]

Embarrassed to ask, but google not my friend. What is Jones' status? He can't play internationally until the clears the suspension? And how is that working -- he gets a game credit whenever the Rapids play or is it more complicated?

Yes, he'll be available the next time the US plays following tomorrow's match.

I'm a bit surprised -- whether it be sirius' soccer channel or the usual Internet stuff -- that while people are bummed about losing to Guatemala and the team's poor play, that nobody is really all that concerned about getting out of this round. Maybe I'm just looking for things to worry about, but I'm pretty worried about it. Has there been a bigger game for US Soccer in recent times? In the last decade? Sure, the world cup games were huge, but nothing comes close to how devastating a loss tomorrow night would be for US Soccer. This is like Manchester United playing a game on the last premier league match day with relegation on the line. Jones may not be in the best shape right now, and may not have more than another few games left in him for the USMNT, but he has grit and physicality that would have been welcome on Friday.

I don't think people are hitting the panic button yet because even a hobbled US is likely to beat Guatemala at home, but anything less than three points and the klaxons will start blaring loudly.

I'm not panicking but panic is definitely possible by halftime.

The closest analogue is the semifinal round of qualification for the 2002 World Cup. The US needed a win on the road at Barbados in the final matchday and although the US ended up winning 4-0, Clint Mathis didn't score the opener until the 63rd minute. The US would have been off the hook with a draw if Costa Rica had beaten Guatemala on the road, but the Chapines won thanks to a brace from....a 21 year old Carlos Ruiz (who scored against the US on Friday).

 

[Schnerres]

You´re correct, there is trouble, but i would say nobody cares about it. Maybe the Warriors breaking the record, baseball starting or just people closing their eyes.
But 2012 was basically the same situation. In the group stage after three matches, the US were 1-1-1 and had 4 points tied with Guatemala behind Jamaica´s 7 points.

 

[Infield Infidel]

This is a massive match, a loss and we are basically done. We would need to win our last two matches, (Trinidad and St. Vincent and the Grenadines), and need help from StV&G, who have 0 points, to beat Guatemala, and also Trinidad to beat Guatemala.

Or StV&G to at least draw Trinidad, and Guatemala to beat Trinidad.

We can beat Guatemala on GD if they draw with StV&G and lose to Trinidad, and we can beat Trinidad on GD if they beat StV&G but lose to Guatemala.

The big difference with 2012 is Guatemala already has 6 pts. and we have 4. 2012 we were tied for 2nd.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The big difference with 2012 is Guatemala already has 6 pts. and we have 4. 2012 we were tied for 2nd.

Right. If we were tied for second place right now with two games left at home, I would feel considerably more comfortable.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

The more I think about the positioning stuff the more frustrated I get. It just reads like bad math on JK's part to me--arriving at an answer without showing the work. Like, okay, certain guys can approximate quality play at certain positions, but when you look at your lineup and see a central defense of Gonzalez, Orozco, and Diskerud, there has to be a fundamental understanding that it's time to STOP and think "wait that doesn't look right does it?" Yedlin is nowhere near bad enough at RB (especially in CONCACAF play) to think it would be more dangerous to have him there than to use that central combo. Decisions made in a vacuum like that are bound to yield the kind of results we just saw.

I'm ambivalent regarding JK's employment but injuries or no, unforced errors like that are frustrating.

 

[soxfan121]

The more I think about the positioning stuff the more frustrated I get. It just reads like bad math on JK's part to me--arriving at an answer without showing the work. Like, okay, certain guys can approximate quality play at certain positions, but when you look at your lineup and see a central defense of Gonzalez, Orozco, and Diskerud, there has to be a fundamental understanding that it's time to STOP and think "wait that doesn't look right does it?" Yedlin is nowhere near bad enough at RB (especially in CONCACAF play) to think it would be more dangerous to have him there than to use that central combo. Decisions made in a vacuum like that are bound to yield the kind of results we just saw.

I'm ambivalent regarding JK's employment but injuries or no, unforced errors like that are frustrating.

Hmmm, see I think this overrates Yedlin. I think a lot of people overrate him. He's not very good and because he's playing for Sunderland doesn't make him good. He's RAW and I don't think he can play a position - he just has skills that seem like they should be easily useable. Fast guys get this treatment a lot. But other than being fast - what CAN he do? It sure isn't "play defense" or "being in the right position".

 

[Titans Bastard]

A faux Klinsmann press conference

So good.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Hmmm, see I think this overrates Yedlin. I think a lot of people overrate him. He's not very good and because he's playing for Sunderland doesn't make him good. He's RAW and I don't think he can play a position - he just has skills that seem like they should be easily useable. Fast guys get this treatment a lot. But other than being fast - what CAN he do? It sure isn't "play defense" or "being in the right position".

My point isn't even really about Yedlin so much as Orozco, Mix (DM Edition), and Gonzalez who is one of the most high variance players I've ever seen at a position where steadiness is kind of important.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I wonder if a game in Guatemala is exactly wrong for Klinsmann. My sense of how you get through these games against lesser competition in Central America is to recognize that they are rock fights played in less than ideal conditions. Play tight in the back and don't go forward unless losing, and put a premium on closing down space for the opposition. Treat one point as a win. Play to nick a set piece goal or to frustrate the home side, which knows it needs more than a draw and so gets reckless late. Years in CONCACAF have kind of reinforced the success of this formula, and interestingly it was closer to the strategy we used in T&T.

I bet this must just drive Klinsmann crazy. He probably has grand notions of imposing our will on the game and refusing to settle for trying to grind out a result. But unless you're Barca or Germany, I think that's just not the right approach for these games, and there's no shame in grinding. I often wonder what it would look like if some of the European countries like England or the Dutch or whatever had to play in CONCACAF and have suspected that some of them could easily assume it's like playing Leichtenstein in a half empty stadium they borrow in Switzerland and could get trapped like we did.

There's not enough of a sample of these types of games in WCQ under Klinsmann to know if this is part of the problem and it doesn't excuse some of the other poor results at home in the Gold Cup last year. There are 10 to 15 times a year for the USMNT to strive for aspirational, expressive football, and even the most ardent detractor of Klinsmann probably respects his goals in this regard if not his execution. But WQC on week nights on bumpy hostile pitches after some of the players have flown 11 hours may not be the right time.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Schedule update from the USSF:

Copa America tuneup friendlies are official.

5/25 vs. Ecuador (in Frisco, TX)
5/28 vs. Bolivia (in Kansas City)

The Sep 6 qualifier against T&T will be held in Jacksonville.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

The tiebreak in the group standings is head-to-head goal differential, isn't it? So not only does the US need to win, but it would help if it was by 2 or more goals.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The tiebreak in the group standings is head-to-head goal differential, isn't it? So not only does the US need to win, but it would help if it was by 2 or more goals.

I don't think so. I think all world cup preliminaries use FIFA Russia rules, so it would be overall goal difference:

"In the league format, the ranking in each group is determined as follows: a) greatest number of points obtained in all group matches; b) goal difference in all group matches; c) greatest number of goals scored in all group matches."

Art. 20, sec. 6. http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/02/59/22/68/regulationsfwc2018russia_short_e_v210415_neutral.pdf

 

[Titans Bastard]

The tiebreak in the group standings is head-to-head goal differential, isn't it? So not only does the US need to win, but it would help if it was by 2 or more goals.

According to Wikipedia, H2H tiebreakers only come into play if old-school tiebreakers aren't enough (regular GD, then goals scored). So it's really about beating up on SVG more than anything else.

The US could survive a draw tonight. If that happened -- and assuming everyone takes three against SVG -- the effective standings would look like:

T&T - 10
Guatemala - 10
USA - 8

(giving everyone 3 against SVG in advance)

That leaves only T&T vs. GUA and USA vs. T&T.

A US win over T&T means the US finishes 2nd in the group if T&T vs. GUA produces a winner. If not, it's a three-way tie on 11 pts and it goes to GD. And in this scenario, the US would have wins against T&T and SVG to add to their current +3 GD, while T&T would have a win against SVG and a loss to the US to affect their +2. Even a one-goal win by the US over T&T would widen the GD gap to three goals, so in that scenario T&T would have to beat SVG by at least three goals more than the US does. And if the US beat T&T by more than one goal, it would be at least five.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Five changes to the starting lineup:



It's Birnbaum's first competitive match for the US.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Things I like:
The FB pairing
Cameron in middle
The front 3.
Jozy not on the pitch

Things I don't like
Yet another CB pairing who have never played together before.
Zusi in the middle? Seems weird
Kyle Fucking Beckerman's slow useless ass

Edit- Without knowing how training has looked (assuming Fabian is injured) ... I'd have swapped Bedoya for Zardes, Cameron for Beckerman, Nagbe for Zusi, and paired Ream and Besler at the back.

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

Feels like they'll play a 7 man defense with three up top looking to poach. Would have liked to see Nagbe over Zusi or even Beckerman (move MB back).

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Besler was sent home with a concussion, so that's why he isn't in there.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Besler was sent home with a concussion, so that's why he isn't in there.

Yeah just saw that, Bedoya apparently has a sore ankle, so that's why he's out.
Definitely not the worst lineup Jurgen's ever put out.

 

[steeplechase3k]

Starting XI vs. Guatemala: Guzan; Yedlin, Birnbaum, Cameron, Castillo; Zusi, Beckerman, Bradley (C); Wood, Dempsey, Zardes

 

[soxfan121]

Would have liked to see Nagbe over Zusi or even Beckerman (move MB back).

Really? The chance Nagbe or any inexperienced player was gonna get some run ended the minute the pro-MLS crowd started calling for Klinsmann's head. There is no way a coach who is being threatened by a significant, vocal minority of the fanbase with termination is going to risk playing a guy who might get overwhelmed by the moment/pressure.

This is something I've tried to express to Titan's Bastard multiple times over multiple years: That the calls for Klinsmann's job has made it LESS likely he uses these untested MLS guys and increases the chances that "old reliable" players are run out. The lineup choices are not made in a vacuum or without consideration of the current situation. So all the carping and whining about Klinsmann being "one loss from fired" is actually feeding into the very problems you claim are Klinsmann's fault.

If, in a game that might mean the USMNT is eliminated from the WC, the coach ran out a bunch of inexperienced MLS guys with no track record - and lost - he'd deserve to get fired.

This is why the calls for Klinsmann's job a year ago were stupid (something I said at the time) and why they continue to be stupid now. It is a self-fulfilling prohecy at this point.

I mean, OF COURSE Beckerman and Zusi are back for a game where Klinsmann's job is apparently on the line - this is what you people ASKED FOR.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I was hoping for a bit more than 20 minutes of Nagbe. But I have a good feeling about Zusi and Beckerman tonight. Maybe for no good reason. But I think they each have a level of maturity and toughness that is little bit Klinsmann proof.

Edit: Ha, my post and SF121's crossed, and he's kind of got me pegged, though I think there's a chicken and the egg thing here.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Ian Darke is calling the game. Everything will work out.

 

[Titans Bastard]

This is why the calls for Klinsmann's job a year ago were stupid (something I said at the time) and why they continue to be stupid now. It is a self-fulfilling prohecy at this point.

I mean, OF COURSE Beckerman and Zusi are back for a game where Klinsmann's job is apparently on the line - this is what you people ASKED FOR.

It's too bad Klinsmann isn't able to handle the pressure of the game in North America. Hopefully he learns a little about soccer culture during his tenure here.

 

[soxfan121]

HA! Nice retort.

 

[soxfan121]

Edit: Ha, my post and SF121's crossed, and he's kind of got me pegged, though I think there's a chicken and the egg thing here.

Indeed. There is literally no way to "win" (except to win) because no matter the lineup choices, either he didn't give the yutes the runout they need OR he was being conservative and unable to handle the pressure of a game with his job on the line.

This will be just unbearable in Russia two years from now, when JK rolls out a lineup without the MLS flavor of the month but does include an over-the-hill veteran (probably "out of position").

The anti-JK crowd gets the cake AND to eat it, no matter what JK does. Even if he wins tonight, it'll because of Beckerman and Zusi being "JK-proof" and able to "overcome" his innate stupidity. And if they lose, it'l be because he played Beckerman and Zusi. There is no win, there is not even try. He can only fail and blame will accrue only to him.

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

Indeed. There is literally no way to "win" (except to win) because no matter the lineup choices, either he didn't give the yutes the runout they need OR he was being conservative and unable to handle the pressure of a game with his job on the line.

This will be just unbearable in Russia two years from now, when JK rolls out a lineup without the MLS flavor of the month but does include an over-the-hill veteran (probably "out of position").

The anti-JK crowd gets the cake AND to eat it, no matter what JK does. Even if he wins tonight, it'll because of Beckerman and Zusi being "JK-proof" and able to "overcome" his innate stupidity. And if they lose, it'l be because he played Beckerman and Zusi. There is no win, there is not even try. He can only fail and blame will accrue only to him.

That is a valid take on things, SF121. But I do think there is a pro-USMNT, neutral JK stance (or at least I think that is where I am). I don't give two cents one way or another about MLS, but I do want to see the US succeed -- with or without JK. And hell, I just want to see the guys on the pitch I think can do that. And, as anyone who follows this thread knows, I loathe Beckerman.

Regardless, squeaky bum time starts at the opening whistle.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Yeah, I don't give a shit who plays as long as they get the result. Win the fucking games and he can put Freddy Adu in, for all I care.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think Klinsmann has falsely tried to pin things for which he deserves responsibility on the players at time. But that's all out the window tonight. Tonight is about the players. If the team doesn't win, it's on them, not him, and I have no problem with him putting a line up in there that makes it pretty much impossible to lay blame elsewhere if they don't get three points.

 

[soxfan121]

@Tangled Up In Red - we are on the same page, my friend. USA! I (have to believe) we will win!

@SoxFanInCali - you are the wise sage of these threads. Right on, brother.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Jamaican ref tonight. That's interesting, in that you could argue that Jamaica has more at stake tonight than anyone other than the USA, including perhaps Guatemala.

 

[Cellar-Door]

This kit is even uglier in motion.

 

[teddykgb]

I'm encouraged by what I've seen of Yedlin as a defender the last 60 or so minutes. Klinsmann didn't trust him to start at RB yet and I sort of understand that but it does look like Yedlin is learning his craft in England right now which is great to see.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Kyle Beckerman used to have 3 speeds: Slow, Dead Slow and Stop. He's lost a step from that.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

 

[soxfan121]

POACHER.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

FUCK

YES

 

[Cellar-Door]

Wasn't pretty but I'll take it.

Edit- Such a CONCACAF goal. Long ball hits CB in the back and falls right to the striker.

 

[soxfan121]

Zardes's run was terrific. Brave to get in there and take the contact, and then Dempsey just pounces on an easy opportunity.

 

[OCST]

Thanks Guatemala.

Thought there was a penalty anyway.

 

[Titans Bastard]

That takes the edge off.

Zardes showing that, while limited, he can be a useful piece at forward. Hopefully we won't see any more of him in a wide role.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think there is a bench role for Dempsey at least come 2018. We just so badly lack finishing that even if he can only be an impact sub it's worth the roster spot.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

It's true it was a relatively easy finish, but if he hits that right at Motta, after Friday, this team might have collapsed. There's no USMNT player that I would have wanted running onto that ball at that exact moment in time more than Dempsey.

 

[soxfan121]

I think there is a bench role for Dempsey at least come 2018. We just so badly lack finishing that even if he can only be an impact sub it's worth the roster spot.

I want him on the team if only to fill the "WTF?!" arms-out-stretched referee complainer role. He is undoubtedly America's best option in that role. No one complains better than Clint.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Bobby Wood has the second best first touch on the roster.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Great first touch by Wood. Need someone to get in the box to help him there.

 

[Infield Infidel]

I'm digging the high press. It's working and Guatemala seems nervy

 

[SoxFanInCali]

What a difference a few days makes.

 

[ifmanis5]

Perfect service from Bradley. Things are looking good.

 

[Infield Infidel]

That was dope

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Ok, now we're in business. No let up. Keep this up for 40 more minutes, cup tie Pulisic in the 85th minute, and get the heck out of dodge.