Yeah, RBYB is probably right about Koppen. I just have fond memories, I guess, of Brock being a total stud during the Pats' 1985 season and playoff run to the Super Bowl, which he was, and it probably colored my view of him as a total player.
The Perfect Patriots Team
- Thread starter BaseballJones
- Start date
You know, you are right. They crapped on the Sullivans too. In 1987 I was 18 so I was kind of in that phase where you notice racist stuff a bit more, and Fryar was a frequent target for various reasons while it seemed to me at the time that the line and QB were let off the hook.
Fryar had the misfortune of being drafted by an unimaginative Pats team. He was a HS running back and averaged over 10 yards a carry at Nebraska (he went there as an RB). He should have been getting the ball 10-15 times a game on a variety of plays from different formations, instead of just being a straight WR. He turned into a good WR later in his career but I always felt he could have been a game breaker if the Pats had been more creative. Kind of like the way Deebo Samuel is deployed.
My recollection is Grogan and especially Flutie got a lot of slack. Eason, mostly deservedly, got none.
There were a number of factors that influenced fans perception of Fryar during his time in New England:
- After the Pats made a bold trade with Cincinnati to nab the #1 overall pick, Fryar arrived to much fanfare, especially after his outstanding season with Nebraska. His rights had been acquired by the New Jersey Generals of the USFL, so New England broke the bank a bit to sign him. For various reasons, however, he had a quiet rookie season (11 receptions for 164 yards). The last #1 pick the Pats earned was Ken Sims, who was already clearly a bust (no matter what his apologists claim, Sims sucked). And fans and the media grew restless wondering if the team was looking at another #1 bust. Should be noted that this draft was exceptionally weak, and the 2 first round picks the Pats traded amounted to not much.
- There was the bizarre domestic incident after a promising 1985 season in which he injured his hand with a knife and came up with all sorts of crazy "alternative truths" to explain it away. The injury forced him to miss the Patriots AFC Championship game victory against the Dolphins.
- Then there was the situation in 1986 where he left the Patriots sideline after sustaining an injury in Buffalo and crashed his car into a tree. He was forced to miss the next game, and after he returned the Pats lost 2 of their final 3 games to put a disappointing finish on what looked to be a promising post-Super Bowl season. And he was a non-factor in the Pats loss to Denver.
- The Pats 1987 season got derailed by an ill-advised players strike which soured the fans and media in general. And then Fryar had a disappointing 1988 season, which included him missing the Pats must-win game in Denver in the final week of the season.
He battled injuries in 1989, leading to another down season. He had one of his best seasons in 1990, but that was of course overshadowed by the team's 1-15 record in which nearly every game was over by the end of the first quarter. By then, the general meme was that he was another #1 pick with a disappointing career. And so when he asked for a trade when Parcells came on board, the team was more than willing to oblige.
Not all of this was Fryar's fault, but the 2 incidents noted above were indeed a problem.
- After the Pats made a bold trade with Cincinnati to nab the #1 overall pick, Fryar arrived to much fanfare, especially after his outstanding season with Nebraska. His rights had been acquired by the New Jersey Generals of the USFL, so New England broke the bank a bit to sign him. For various reasons, however, he had a quiet rookie season (11 receptions for 164 yards). The last #1 pick the Pats earned was Ken Sims, who was already clearly a bust (no matter what his apologists claim, Sims sucked). And fans and the media grew restless wondering if the team was looking at another #1 bust. Should be noted that this draft was exceptionally weak, and the 2 first round picks the Pats traded amounted to not much.
- There was the bizarre domestic incident after a promising 1985 season in which he injured his hand with a knife and came up with all sorts of crazy "alternative truths" to explain it away. The injury forced him to miss the Patriots AFC Championship game victory against the Dolphins.
- Then there was the situation in 1986 where he left the Patriots sideline after sustaining an injury in Buffalo and crashed his car into a tree. He was forced to miss the next game, and after he returned the Pats lost 2 of their final 3 games to put a disappointing finish on what looked to be a promising post-Super Bowl season. And he was a non-factor in the Pats loss to Denver.
- The Pats 1987 season got derailed by an ill-advised players strike which soured the fans and media in general. And then Fryar had a disappointing 1988 season, which included him missing the Pats must-win game in Denver in the final week of the season.
He battled injuries in 1989, leading to another down season. He had one of his best seasons in 1990, but that was of course overshadowed by the team's 1-15 record in which nearly every game was over by the end of the first quarter. By then, the general meme was that he was another #1 pick with a disappointing career. And so when he asked for a trade when Parcells came on board, the team was more than willing to oblige.
Not all of this was Fryar's fault, but the 2 incidents noted above were indeed a problem.
No doubt, the guy had demons. But that is true for a few guys on that list (and for most "greatest of all time" lists for most NFL teams).
Because of the way this exercise is looking at players throughout their career and not just NE, looking at Moss....I still can't understand how he is viewed as the 2nd best receiver of all-time and TO is viewed as the third. How does one forgive his 2 seasons of walking through plays in Oakland, or his late career weirdness where teams - teams who knew him well! - couldn't cut him quickly enough? TO was a major league weirdo, but his production was consistently phenomenal every year of his career when he was healthy. In 2005 when he dickholed his way out of PHI he was averaging over 100 yards a game!! I will never understand how Moss has a paying gig on network TV while TO is an afterthought.
TO also aged better than almost every other WR outside of Rice. He had 3 straight 1000 yard seasons in Dallas in his age 33-35 seasons and nearly got there with Cincy in his age 37 season in only 14 games. On the flip side, Moss was basically done at 32.
FWIW, I love Teddy but I’m taking Hightower over him. I also think Trey Flowers is a better fit than Judon for his ability to set the edge.
Owens has better numbers, but Moss had more eye popping “how did he do that” highlights and I think that colors the mind. My dad still thinks Lynn Swann is a top 5 all time WR, and the numbers aren’t close but he sure has some memorable highlights.
That's a bit hyperbolic. They had four 1-score losses that year, and 2 by two scores- one (SEA) in which they led in the 4th Q, and a second (BUF) where it was 0-7 going into the 4th Q.
Sure you can. You don't agree with it, but yes you can understand it.
Does he?
Total career stats:
Owens: 15 seasons, 219 g, 1,078 rec, 15,934 yds, 14.8 y/c, 153 td
Moss: 14 seasons, 218 g, 982 rec, 15,292 yds, 15.6 y/c, 156 td
Average per season:
Owens: 71.9 rec, 1,062 yds, 14.8 y/c, 10.2 td
Moss: 70.1 rec, 1,092 yds, 15.6 y/c, 11.1 td
Best individual season:
Owens (2001): 93 rec, 1,412 yds, 15.2 y/c, 16 td
Moss (2007): 98 rec, 1,493 yds, 15.2 y/c, 23 td
Best three seasons (added up):
Owens (2001, 2002, 2000): 290 rec, 4,163 yds, 14.4 y/c, 42 td
Moss (2007, 2003, 1998): 278 rec, 4,438 yds, 16.0 y/c, 57 td
# of 1,400+ yard seasons:
Owens: 2
Moss: 4
# of 1,300+ yard seasons:
Owens: 4
Moss: 6
# of 15+ TD seasons:
Owens: 1
Moss: 4
# of times led league in TD:
Owens: 3
Moss: 5
The argument for Owens was longevity - he was more consistently good at an older age. But his overall career numbers were no better than Moss' (a tick better in a couple of categories, a tick worse in others, but overall very similar), and Moss' per-year numbers were better. Plus, Moss' peak was much better than Owens', whether you're looking at their best individual season, or best three seasons combined.
We also can't really use the argument that Moss played with better QBs. (well he did play with the GOAT of course)
Owens:
- 4 seasons with Steve Young (1996-1999), one of the best to ever play QB (though only a few games with Young in 1999)
- 2 seasons with Donovan McNabb (2004-05), who isn't a HOFer, but was a 6x pro bowler
- 3 seasons with Tony Romo (2006-2008), who was a 4x pro bowler
Moss:
- 4 seasons (3 1/2 really) with Tom Brady (2007-2010), the GOAT
- 6 seasons with Duante Culpepper (1999-2005), a 3x pro bowler
Pretty comparable list actually. And they played in the same era, so it's not like Moss put up his numbers in a more passing-friendly time. They were contemporaries.
I mean, obviously they're both all-time greats, I'd say behind only Jerry Rice (obviously). I have Moss at #2 for what I think are good reasons. I won't go crazy with someone arguing Owens, though I think the better argument is for Moss. But this idea that it's some wacky, mind-blowing notion that Moss was better than Owens is kinda weird.
EDIT: In any case, Owens is ineligible for my perfect Pats team, and Moss is the best WR the Patriots have ever had, so it's him.
Last edited:
No, I really can't.
One guy whacked a woman around at the start of the playoffs at the end of a perfect season. If the SB is called "The Scottish Game" here then this was the meeting with the three witches. If you are going to tell me that Edelman is better than Welker because of big game magic, let's be honest about Moss being an incredible distraction in that playoff run. In those playoffs he had 7 receptions for 94 yards. Out damn spot, indeed.
One guy went to Oakland and literally walked routes in multiple games while being one of the top 5-6 paid players in the game.
One guy got cut from the two former teams that still loved him a season after racking up nearly 1,300 yards.
One guy came back from a broken leg early and ran up 122 yards of receiving against a good number of the guys listed in the Perfect Patriots defense.
Anyone who would take Moss over Owens sure as shit better hope they get one of his good boy years and not the screaming chasms of awful.
I find this hard to believe, but ok.
His "bad awful terrible" 2008 season in Oakland, with Kerry (53.5% completion) Collins throwing him the ball: 60 rec, 1,005 yds, 16.8 y/c, 8 td
He was admittedly terrible in 2009 when he was a bum. No argument there.
From 1998-2009 his worst season was that 2009 campaign, but the 2008 season was his second worst. And it was still a 1,000+ yard season with eight scores and a great 16.8 average. I mean that's one of his worst seasons ever. I'd happily sign up for that receiver on the 2023 Pats.
So there weren't that many "screaming chasms of awful" in Moss' career.
FYI, Owens had a few pretty bad seasons in there as well, if you care to look it up. (I will say that Owens' SB performance against NE was one of the all time great gamer moments in sports...dude was incredible)
But fine, I've got no quarrel with you preferring Owens over Moss. I just don't really get the hyperbolic "I can't understand how anyone would think Moss is better than Owens" stuff. That's...pretty out there, that you literally cannot fathom why.
Mayo or Steve Nelson over Bruschi may be reasonable positions. Not sure how to best compare LB position across eras but Nelson was a 3x Pro Bowl, Mayo was 2x Pro Bowl and 1x All Pro while Bruschi was 1x Pro Bowl.
Absolutely no doubt. I was in the stadium when he made that catch in the end zone vs the Jets. Everyone knew the ball was going to him, he broke through, freed himself up and made an unreal catch in a crowded phone booth. It was probably the most athletic 6 seconds I have ever seen live.
Yeah, Moss had a lot of those. Like, when I was watching Owens I felt like I was watching one of the best WRs of all time. When I was watching Moss I felt like I was watching an alien play WR just for the fun of making NFL defensive backs look like toddlers. I understand that's borderline Moneyball Good Body type analysis, but I think the highlights influence a lot of people, myself included.
Agreed. Owens and Rice both played the position as if they spent every day reading books on how to play receiver perfectly, Moss played like he was on the sidelines wondering if he could catch a touchdown using his buttcheeks.
When you have your name turned into a verb based on how badly you make DBs look it definitely adds something to the perception.
I’m not sure you can blame Moss for sleepwalking in 2006 as that Raiders team might have had one of the worse offenses of all time. They only scored 12 TDs on offense all season, with the QBs accounting for 7 TDs (vs 24 picks), with Moss catching 3 despite spending most plays double covered as the only remotely threatening option on offense. Without a near heroic performance by a Rob Ryan defense, they probably would have went 0-16.
34 year old Warren Sapp had 10 sacks for a 2 win team.
Moss was 29 and was 9% of the team's cap space, and was 11th in cap impact in the NFL.
I mean.....I feel OK blaming him for sleepwalking and holding it out there as a big black mark against his performance. Owens had a banana pants year as well in 2005, but in that case he had a contract beef and the Eagles were -admittedly - acting irrationally. That is a mark against him, but he averaged 100 yards a game for the 7 games he played before getting benched.
You are 10000% right on Koppen.
But as someone else said, I think Fryar's awesomeness in Philly is clouding you on him. For his first 4 seasons here, he was, at best, the #2 to Stanley Morgan. I believe it was Fryar's 3rd season where Morgan went for almost 1,500 yards. The following season, Morgan got hurt and only played 10 games and still had more catches than Fryar who played in 12. In Fryar's 5th season, he played in 15 games and had 31 catches (not obviously all his fault, the QB's sucked), but Morgan coming off injury and 33 years old finished with 33 catches.
In Fryar's 6th season, he only started 5 games, and finished behind Hart Lee Dykes, Eric Sievers and Cedric Jones (all by about 20 receptions) and only had 1 more catch than Morgan.
He was finally the #1 receiver in his last 2 seasons here (his 7th and 8th seasons in the league at that point) and still had less catches over those 2 years than the immortal Marv Cook.
Irving Fryar had all the talent in the world (so did Terry Glenn for that matter), but he just wasn't good when he was with the Pats. Then he found his game in Miami, and then went to Philly and lit it up. He was a very good receiver, but honestly, he couldn't hold Stanley Morgan's jock.
Over the course of Morgan's first 5 years in the league, he averaged a fucking outrageous 22.5 yards per reception on 216 catches (led the league 3 times, which didn't even include his 2nd season where he averaged 24.1ypc on 34 catches). He had almost 5,000 yards through 5 seasons on only 216 catches, and 35 touchdowns. If not for Stanley Morgan, nobody knows who Steve Grogan is...
There is zero doubt in my mind that I had forgotten how good Morgan was.
I do think Fryar had the better career, but it was a lot closer than I thought when I first posted. This thread has been fun to go back and watch late 80s game tape, I had definitely also forgotten how physical the AFC East was during that time.
In a conversation last night regarding the upcoming season my father openly shared that he thought that Lynn Swann was a top 5 WR of all time. "Top 5....maybe top 10 at the worst" was his reply to "Lynn Swann???? Have you watched any football in the last 40 years?"
To be fair, tipping the ball to himself over the cowboys defender in the Super Bowl was boss. As. Hell.
Let's say that Lynn Swann's best season was 1975, when he had 49 receptions for 781 yards, a 15.9 average, and a league-leading 11 touchdowns.
A modern WR with those numbers would be considered to be very good, but not great. The yards per catch number is terrific, and the 11 touchdowns is terrific, but the number of receptions and total yards are both pedestrian by today's standards.
But let's look at context.
In 1975, Terry Bradshaw attempted a whopping 286 passes for the entire season (14 game season, and he played all 14 games). He completed 57.7% of his passes (165 total) for 2,055 yards and threw 20 total touchdowns.
So Swann - on a stacked HOF roster - accounted for 30% of his team's total completions, 38% of his team's pass yardage, and 55% of his team's pass receptions.
If we put those rates into Patrick Mahomes' 2023 numbers (435 completions, 648 attempts, 5,250 yds, 41 td), here's what we'd be looking at with Swann:
30% of 435 completions = 131 rec
38% of 5,250 yards = 1,995 yds
55% of 41 TD = 23 td
I mean, it would be the greatest season by a WR in the history of the NFL. By a wide margin.
So just like we need to look at QB numbers in their historical context, the same goes for WRs - which of course only enhances the argument for Morgan and Fryar, but even more so for Swann. When Morgan had his monster 1979 season (44 rec, 1,002 yds, 22.8 avg, 12 TD) at least the Patriots attempted 475 passes - 66% more than the 1975 Steelers.
I'm gaining a new appreciation for these old time players - they were unbelievable.
A modern WR with those numbers would be considered to be very good, but not great. The yards per catch number is terrific, and the 11 touchdowns is terrific, but the number of receptions and total yards are both pedestrian by today's standards.
But let's look at context.
In 1975, Terry Bradshaw attempted a whopping 286 passes for the entire season (14 game season, and he played all 14 games). He completed 57.7% of his passes (165 total) for 2,055 yards and threw 20 total touchdowns.
So Swann - on a stacked HOF roster - accounted for 30% of his team's total completions, 38% of his team's pass yardage, and 55% of his team's pass receptions.
If we put those rates into Patrick Mahomes' 2023 numbers (435 completions, 648 attempts, 5,250 yds, 41 td), here's what we'd be looking at with Swann:
30% of 435 completions = 131 rec
38% of 5,250 yards = 1,995 yds
55% of 41 TD = 23 td
I mean, it would be the greatest season by a WR in the history of the NFL. By a wide margin.
So just like we need to look at QB numbers in their historical context, the same goes for WRs - which of course only enhances the argument for Morgan and Fryar, but even more so for Swann. When Morgan had his monster 1979 season (44 rec, 1,002 yds, 22.8 avg, 12 TD) at least the Patriots attempted 475 passes - 66% more than the 1975 Steelers.
I'm gaining a new appreciation for these old time players - they were unbelievable.
If Fryar is on the all time Pats team then so is Revis.
Neither should be. And it is obvious why. It is akin to saying Babe Ruth is the greatest Red Sox player of all time.
Neither should be. And it is obvious why. It is akin to saying Babe Ruth is the greatest Red Sox player of all time.
I know recent incidents have soured the view on him but Willie McGinest was an animal. I’d take him over either of the two bolded above.
I'm taking Edelman over Brown on punt returns. Especially if that means he becomes a bonus receiver. (I'm fine with your picks of Moss/Welker but personally would go Morgan/Welker or Morgan/Edelman if I can't get Edelman as a bonus by having him as punt returner.)
Here's the funny thing: All you need is that O-Line, Brady and either Edelman or Welker. A well-protected Tom Brady has never lost a playoff game, and hasn't lost very many regular season games, either.
Here's the other funny thing: 2007 WAS the perfect team, absent injuries.
Here's the other funny thing: 2007 WAS the perfect team, absent injuries.
I get what you’re saying but the D was a bit long in the tooth. They weren’t fast either.
They went 18-1 and only gave up 17 points in the Super Bowl. Were it not for incompetent refereeing, it would have been 10 points.
They were a good defense. Just not a great one. The best offense of all time propped them up a bit.