The Perfect Patriots Team

54thMA · Jul 25, 2023

Hard to argue with any of those, but for me, I'd take Russ Francis over Coates, Leon Gray at left tackle over Armstrong and Stanley Morgan over Moss.

Your choices are all home runs, my choices are 1a over your 1's.

Mooch · Jul 25, 2023

I'd take Stanley Morgan over Julian Edelman as the other WR.

Zedia · Jul 25, 2023

This came up in the Pats HOF discussion, but I had no idea Pete Brock was anything other than a fine fellow and an ok football player. But I was just a kid when he played so what do I know. Jon Morris certainly has the accolades over him. But I would just ask Tom who he wants, so it's probably between Dan Koppen and David Andrews.

Raymond Clayborn is a tough omission.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

Koppen has chunks of Brock in his stool.

Edelman over Irving Fryar??? Are we drunk right now?

Mystic Merlin · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
Koppen has chunks of Brock in his stool.

Edelman over Irving Fryar??? Are we drunk right now?

As soon as I saw the omission of Koppen, I thought ‘I hope Yammer has corrected this oversight.’ My faith in man has been renewed.

88 MVP · Jul 25, 2023

Do we assume you get each player in their absolute prime, or at the point of their career they were in NE? I’d like to cheat and add Revis to that secondary

Huntington Avenue Grounds · Jul 25, 2023

Nothing of note to add but seeing "Perfect" in the title of this thread sent me into PTSD over the Scottish Game.

ifmanis5 · Jul 25, 2023

Drop Kicker - Flutie

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I considered Revis but thought....eh, he was only here for one season. To be fair, a Super Bowl winning season where he was terrific, but that's why I left him off.

Koppen was obviously terrific too. Perfectly fine choice at C.

But remember, we aren't necessarily talking about the BEST players, or the GREATEST players, just guys who would fit on a perfect TEAM.

Not including Irving Fryar over Edelman still makes absolutely no sense under that criteria. Irving Fryar was insanely good. Just don't loan him money.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Make your own team.

It's so incomprehensible to me that a human who saw Fryar play and Edelman play could every think that Edelman was even in the same tier of WR. Fryar played on teams that were godawful after his first few seasons, his 24 - 30 year seasons were a total waste (I think he made the Pro Bowl one of those years, but it was more of a lifetime achievement at that point with NE), whereas Edelman walked into a role that had been clearly defined by Welker being thrown the ball by Tom Brady. This is bananas.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Got it. Thanks.

So your justification for choosing Edelman is.....this team bullshit? Look at every player and make sure you are putting all of them under the same lens.

tims4wins · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
So your justification for choosing Edelman is.....this team bullshit? Look at every player and make sure you are putting all of them under the same lens.

I can't say I saw Fryar on the Pats. I watched him a bit in Miami.

But wasn't he more of a deep threat than a possession guy? If you have Moss as your deep guy, wouldn't you want an Edelman / Welker type as your other WR?

While I begrudgingly admit Welker was better than Edelman, the playoffs have a huge influence on our mindset when it comes to this stuff.

tims4wins · Jul 25, 2023

On Martin vs. Dillon, just wanted to point out that Dillon's 4.7 YPC was better than Martin's best season (4.6, also 2004). Martin was a better receiver, no doubt about that. You didn't list 3rd down back as one of your other positions - would be a tough call between James White and Kevin Faulk.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

tims4wins said:
I can't say I saw Fryar on the Pats. I watched him a bit in Miami.

But wasn't he more of a deep threat than a possession guy? If you have Moss as your deep guy, wouldn't you want an Edelman / Welker type as your other WR?

While I begrudgingly admit Welker was better than Edelman, the playoffs have a huge influence on our mindset when it comes to this stuff.

In truth, for most of his career he was a "whatever you need him to do" guy....which Moss kind of was as well in my opinion (he was a great deep threat, but 3rd and goal from the 5 was not a bad spot to look at Randy for).

Edelman had insane hands. If I remember correctly - and I may not - he was at 65% catch % for most of his career. But he was also the number 2 receiver (3 if you count Gronk) catching balls from Tom Brady for a lot of his career, playing under stricter pass defending rules. I don't know how to compare Fryar (always the #1 for most of his career) against that.

I watched Fryar play for the Patriots, the Eagles and the artist-formerly-known-as-the-Redskins and always thought he was a top tier receiver who landed in a cruddy situation in NE (post Super Bowl, obviously). When I would go to games at Foxboro in the late 80s I honestly can't think of another skill player he played with other than Hart Lee Dykes (Martin, Coates et al arrived right after he left.....I think).

Again though, seriously, don't loan him money.

tims4wins · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
In truth, for most of his career he was a "whatever you need him to do" guy....which Moss kind of was as well in my opinion (he was a great deep threat, but 3rd and goal from the 5 was not a bad spot to look at Randy for).

Edelman had insane hands. If I remember correctly - and I may not - he was at 65% catch % for most of his career. But he was also the number 2 receiver (3 if you count Gronk) catching balls from Tom Brady for a lot of his career, playing under stricter pass defending rules. I don't know how to compare Fryar (always the #1 for most of his career) against that.

I watched Fryar play for the Patriots, the Eagles and the artist-formerly-known-as-the-Redskins and always thought he was a top tier receiver who landed in a cruddy situation in NE (post Super Bowl, obviously). When I would go to games at Foxboro in the late 80s I honestly can't think of another skill player he played with other than Hart Lee Dykes (Martin, Coates et al arrived right after he left.....I think).

Again though, seriously, don't loan him money.

All fair. Just wanted to point out that there was no Gronk in 2016 or 2019, which were the two highest catch years of Edelman's career. It wasn't like he couldn't product without Gronk.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I don't even know why I'm doing this, but I'll explain it, if the OP wasn't enough.

I explained my philosophy for the offense I'd want to run. I want to run 12 personnel - one RB and two TEs, leaving two spots for WRs. I want the most flexible offense possible to maximize what Brady can do.

So I start with the TEs. Gronkowski is obvious, and to me, Coates is the next obvious. Both guys are elite receivers for the TE position, and both are terrific run blockers as well. Those two guys give this team the best run/pass flexibility at TE. You can also move Gronk (less so Coates) out wide, as they did against Seattle in the SB, and against KC in the AFCCG in which they won in OT. So keep that in mind.

So now the WRs. Randy Moss is the obvious #1 choice. He's the second best WR ever to play the game. If you want to quibble with that, fine, but he's clearly the best WR that the Patriots have ever had, and it's not close. He's a total game changer in every way. So he's my WR1. The problem is, he's basically an outside the numbers guy. Not that that's a "problem" for Moss, but that's just where he plays.

So now I'm thinking about flexibility and situations where, based on matchups, you'd move Gronk to the outside. Now you have Gronk and Moss on the outside, and that leaves them with a need for a guy in the slot. That's not Fryar's role at all. He's an outside the numbers guy too. Edelman can play outside really well, but he's also an elite slot guy. So this team gets maximum flexibility with Edelman instead of Fryar. If you have two outside WRs, then you can't move Gronk to the outside to take advantage of a particular matchup if you want, because those spots are already taken. Edelman is a lesser WR than Fryar, but he's more flexible, and that's what I'm looking for here.

On top of that, Edelman is a great receiver (it's not like he's some schlep) that consistently produced big time in the biggest games. You can look up the numbers. If you want to credit all that to Brady be my guest, but then you have to discredit all the other great Patriot receivers and tight ends that played with Brady too. I'm not willing to do that. If you want to, go ahead. Like I said, build your own team. This is how I'd do it. Moreover, Edelman adds in elite punt returning (if you need that), and he can also run trick plays that Fryar can't. Or at least we didn't see him do it. Maybe he could have. I don't know. But we know Edelman can. On top of THAT, Brady loves Edelman, so the chemistry is there.

So there are lots of reasons why I'd prefer Edelman in that spot. I think it makes for a better TEAM. You call that "bullshit". I don't care what you call it. But we all know that building a team isn't simply about accumulating talent. The pieces need to fit. I'm sure Brady would throw just fine to Fryar but Edelman does more things than Fryar and we know he's elite with Brady.

The Patriots have had more great centers and left guards and left tackles than they've had right guards and right tackles too, but I can't just swing Matt Light or Leon Gray to RT over Vollmer, because they played left tackle, not right tackle. Steve Nelson was probably a better LB than Tedy Bruschi, but for THIS team, I'd prefer to have Bruschi as the signal caller at LB.

Personally, I think that Stanley Morgan was also a better pure WR than Edelman was too, but I want Edelman on this team for the reasons I gave.

If you don't like that, fine. Like I said...build your own team.

BTW - I think you're probably right about Koppen over Brock. But I'm perfectly happy with Edelman over Fryar in building this team.

This is a well-reasoned answer.

As I mentioned above, Randy Moss is not only an "outside the numbers" guy, IMO, and Gronkowski (and Coates too, tbh) was practically a slot receiver to begin with the way he was used on passing downs (although again....he had the flexibility to go deep...which is pretty bananas). So to me, you have the flexibility you desire in the players themselves. Fryar made the Pro Bowl with three different teams, getting thrown the ball by Tony Eason and Ty Detmer (also....Dan Marino, who was pretty good to be honest), and he was always the #1 guy. I think Moss, Fryar, Coates and Gronkowski would blow up the record books even with Mac Jones at QB.

But I will concede the point, that Edelman was a spectacular possession receiver who came up big in some big moments.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

tims4wins said:
All fair. Just wanted to point out that there was no Gronk in 2016 or 2019, which were the two highest catch years of Edelman's career. It wasn't like he couldn't product without Gronk.

He was a fantastic possession receiver. He ran routes tremendously cleanly and while he definitely benefited from playing with Moss, Gronkowski and Brady, he almost certainly would have been - at minimum - "pretty darned good" had he played his career elsewhere.

54thMA · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I'm not saying that Edelman is as good as Gronk. But he was pretty frigging great in the playoffs WITH Gronk or without him.

He was great in the playoffs.

His catch in the Seahawks Super Bowl where he got crushed, bounced back up but was ruled down, pretty sure he had no clue where he was at that point after the hit.

His incredible "hands" catch in the Falcons Super Bowl kept that drive going.

He had not one, but two clutch 3rd and 10 catches in the AFCCG in OT vs the Chiefs and was the Super Bowl MVP vs the Rams.

He indeed was pretty frigging great.

jose melendez · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
Koppen has chunks of Brock in his stool.

Edelman over Irving Fryar??? Are we drunk right now?

I think your memories of his Philly days are making you think he was better than he was in NE. Morgan is the choice.

I'd forgotten how good he was in Philly.

Edit: missed all of your responses before I wrote this. You make a compelling argument.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

.

jose melendez said:
I think your memories of his Philly days are making you think he was better than he was in NE. Morgan is the choice.

I'd forgotten how good he was in Philly.

Edit: missed all of your responses before I wrote this. You make a compelling argument.

Yeah, the debate being framed the way that it is makes this tricky. I may be one of the few here who remember how good Fryar was when he came out of college (and also when he was in college), and just how poop those Patriots teams that he was on from 85 - whenever he left were.

Plantiers Wart · Jul 25, 2023

No love for Terry Glenn?

jose melendez · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
.

Yeah, the debate being framed the way that it is makes this tricky. I may be one of the few here who remember how good Fryar was when he came out of college (and also when he was in college), and just how poop those Patriots teams that he was on from 85 - whenever he left were.

I remember him being amazing in college, though I was really young. I thought he had a ton of drops as a Pat though, though that might be Sports Huddle propoganda that seeped in.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

jose melendez said:
I remember him being amazing in college, though I was really young. I thought he had a ton of drops as a Pat though, though that might be Sports Huddle propoganda that seeped in.

This may shock you, but when the Patriots were playing terribly because they were owned by incompetent morons, many NE journalists blamed the outspoken African-Americans first.

Reverend · Jul 25, 2023

Was Ben Coates really a better weapon on offense than Aaron Hernandez? Too soon or something?

Euclis20 · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
This is a well-reasoned answer.

As I mentioned above, Randy Moss is not only an "outside the numbers" guy, IMO, and Gronkowski (and Coates too, tbh) was practically a slot receiver to begin with the way he was used on passing downs (although again....he had the flexibility to go deep...which is pretty bananas). So to me, you have the flexibility you desire in the players themselves. Fryar made the Pro Bowl with three different teams, getting thrown the ball by Tony Eason and Ty Detmer (also....Dan Marino, who was pretty good to be honest), and he was always the #1 guy. I think Moss, Fryar, Coates and Gronkowski would blow up the record books even with Mac Jones at QB.

But I will concede the point, that Edelman was a spectacular possession receiver who came up big in some big moments.

Gronk made catches all over the field but he was more than flexible going deep. Career yards per catch with the Patriots:

Troy Brown: 11.4
Wes Welker: 11.1
Julian Edelman: 11.0
Rob Gronkowski: 15.1

Looking at 2011-2016 and looking at Pats with 15+ catches, Gronk led the team in yards per reception every year. He slowed down near the end (Brandin Cooks had more yards per catch in 2017, and both Josh Gordon and Chris Hogan had a higher yards per catch in 2018), but post-Moss, Gronk was THE deep threat for the Pats. He was also one of the deadliest red zone targets ever, so I suspect his yards per catch was suppressed slightly by a large number of catches on goal to go situations. He just wasn't a slot receiver, though he could moonlight as one if need be.

Forget Edelman, there's already a pretty great slot receiver on this roster: Troy Brown was Edelman, just in a non-passing era, with a younger and worse version of Brady, and as the primary target earlier in his career. Just like Edelman he was a special teams ace and had some snaps on defense, and like Edelman he showed up in big games. If we need a slot receiver I'd just put Brown on the field, I'd prefer another legit pro bowl level WR to replace Edelman. Gotta go with Stanley Morgan for that WR2.

lexrageorge · Jul 25, 2023

Early in Fryar's career, he was the clear #2 to Stanley Morgan. But the same would have been true for all but a select few NFL receivers at the time. He made his first Pro Bowl on the back of his punt return capability, where he led the league in yards/return and touchdowns in 1985.

But he had horrible luck with QB's. After a promising 1986 season in which the Pats fell short in the playoffs due to the lack of a running game, Tony Eason's back started failing him and before long it is Doug Flutie tossing the pigskin Fryar's way. And soon after the bottom fell out and the Pats would be a utter laughing stock for the next few seasons. Obviously not wanting to put up with another lengthy rebuild, he is sent to Miami just as Parcells and Bledsoe come to Foxboro. However, Dan Marino pops his achilles 5 games into Fryar's first season there. By the time Marino returns, the never-great Dolphins defense had long left the stadium. Fryar goes to Philly immediately after Randall Cunningham is traded, and then leaves Philly just before Donovan McNabb's arrival.

Marciano490 · Jul 25, 2023

Reverend said:
Was Ben Coates really a better weapon on offense than Aaron Hernandez? Too soon or something?

Coates was obviously a great TE, but Hernandez was just so versatile. He could kill ya a million different ways.

rodderick · Jul 25, 2023

Give me Randy Moss, Stanley Morgan, Wes Welker and Gronk as the receiving options, you can keep Ben Coates. That's simply unstoppable.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag · Jul 25, 2023

Marciano490 said:
Coates was obviously a great TE, but Hernandez was just so versatile. He could kill ya a million different ways.

Nicely played.

Euclis20 · Jul 25, 2023

Marciano490 said:
Coates was obviously a great TE, but Hernandez was just so versatile. He could kill ya a million different ways.

Every now and then I check out a Hernandez highlight reel (38 career regular season games!), and it's really something. Guy was a top 5 TE in his own right, him and Gronk for a decade would have been unstoppable if/when healthy.

nighthob · Jul 25, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
It's so incomprehensible to me that a human who saw Fryar play and Edelman play could every think that Edelman was even in the same tier of WR. Fryar played on teams that were godawful after his first few seasons, his 24 - 30 year seasons were a total waste (I think he made the Pro Bowl one of those years, but it was more of a lifetime achievement at that point with NE), whereas Edelman walked into a role that had been clearly defined by Welker being thrown the ball by Tom Brady. This is bananas.

In fairness to Julian, unlike Welker he caught them when it mattered.

Also I agree with you about Fryar, he was a great talent wasted on a team that was allergic to good QB play.

Reverend · Jul 25, 2023

Marciano490 said:
Coates was obviously a great TE, but Hernandez was just so versatile. He could kill ya a million different ways.

Coming out of the H-back position like that? You never knew what he might do.

Granite Sox · Jul 25, 2023

Ray Clayborn or Mack Herron over Ellis Hobbs at KR. Both were excellent.

Stanley at WR over Jules (and I love Jules). You have the short routes covered with two uncoverable TEs.

Mystic Merlin · Jul 25, 2023

I’m tempted to take Logan Mankins over Mason and gamble that he would figure out how to play RG. Dude was monster in his prime.

Euclis20 said:
Gronk made catches all over the field but he was more than flexible going deep. Career yards per catch with the Patriots:

Troy Brown: 11.4
Wes Welker: 11.1
Julian Edelman: 11.0
Rob Gronkowski: 15.1

Looking at 2011-2016 and looking at Pats with 15+ catches, Gronk led the team in yards per reception every year. He slowed down near the end (Brandin Cooks had more yards per catch in 2017, and both Josh Gordon and Chris Hogan had a higher yards per catch in 2018), but post-Moss, Gronk was THE deep threat for the Pats. He was also one of the deadliest red zone targets ever, so I suspect his yards per catch was suppressed slightly by a large number of catches on goal to go situations. He just wasn't a slot receiver, though he could moonlight as one if need be.

Forget Edelman, there's already a pretty great slot receiver on this roster: Troy Brown was Edelman, just in a non-passing era, with a younger and worse version of Brady, and as the primary target earlier in his career. Just like Edelman he was a special teams ace and had some snaps on defense, and like Edelman he showed up in big games. If we need a slot receiver I'd just put Brown on the field, I'd prefer another legit pro bowl level WR to replace Edelman. Gotta go with Stanley Morgan for that WR2.

This is a persuasive case for a true boundary receiver like Morgan or Fryar over Welker or Edelman. And FWIW, I love Edelman, but I’d take Welker if it came to it. His production was unbelievable and dwarfed Jules’, and, knowing someone will bring up his drop in SB46, he was NAILS in SB42.

Bowhemian · Jul 25, 2023

Euclis20 said:
Every now and then I check out a Hernandez highlight reel (38 career regular season games!), and it's really something. Guy was a top 5 TE in his own right, him and Gronk for a decade would have been unstoppable if/when healthy.

Not only did he kill a bunch of people (allegedly), he also killed the teams Super Bowl chances for a couple years.

Old Fart Tree · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Not simply listing the "best" or "greatest" players in Pats' history at each position, but rather, putting together the "perfect" Patriots team. Obviously it will include many/most of the "best" or "greatest" players, but anyone who wishes to join in this exercise, the rules are: (1) You have to declare your primary offensive set (i.e., 12 personnel - one RB and 2 TEs - etc.) and philosophy, and your primary defensive formation (3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 3-3-5, etc.) and philosophy. Also go with your top HC (duh) and OC and DC (don't need to go beyond that to positional coaches). Feel free to give explanations for your selections.

For me, it begins with the fact that Tom Brady is obviously the QB, and he can run virtually any system you want. He can be a "game manager" or he can go 5-wide and just sling it all day. You've got a million options with him. But because of that, I want an offense that can maximize what he does best, which is make pre-snap assessments, and that means lots of WR in motion, and then pick the best matchup to attack. Furthermore, I'm going to want a Swiss-Army knife kind of offense. So I want two TEs that can block AND catch and give Brady as many options as possible. So I'm going with 12 personnel in this perfect Patriots team. I will also need a versatile RB and linemen who can be effective at both pass and run blocking.

So...here's the offense:

QB - Tom Brady - GOAT; nothing more needs to be said
RB - Curtis Martin - I know he spent the majority of his time with the Jets, but he was a great Patriot, and he could do it all - block, run, and catch; Hall of Famer, and perfect for this team
WR - Randy Moss - all time great field stretcher
WR - Julian Edelman - Welker was a better slot receiver, but Edelman plays both outside and slot, and is a better blocker than Wes, AND he can add the element of a trick play being a former college QB, as the Ravens found out; also tough as nails and as good a big game player that's ever played
TE - Rob Gronkowski - the best all-around TE the NFL has ever seen
TE - Ben Coates - obviously a total stud in both the passing and running games
LT - Bruce Armstrong - a great LT for a long time for the Pats
LG - John Hannah - simply as good as it gets at the position
C - Pete Brock - a rock in the middle, and good in both run blocking and pass pro
RG - Shaq Mason - at his best, he was a tremendous run blocker, and he became a very good pass protector as well
RT - Sebastian Vollmer - could do whatever you needed him to do; not a pro-bowl level player, but a great fit for the Patriots' scheme

Now, defensively, I want a team that can do a credible job against the run, but who really can get after the QB and play pass defense. So I want really good pass rushers all over the field, but not guys who would get steamrolled in the run game. I'm going to play a 4-2-5 system, wanting great athletes all over the field. My linebackers need to be good against the run and in coverage, but I also want them to be credible pass rushers too. And they all need to be SMART and be able to run the system. I know I'm asking a lot. Too bad.

DE - Willie McGinest - off field issues lately, but between the lines, he was tough, strong, set the edge, and could rush the passer as well
DT - Richard Seymour - an absolute rock on the line, can play both DE and DT equally well; also, he's humongous and takes up a ton of space
DT - Vince Wilfork - another immovable guy on the line; very tough to run between the tackles with both Seymour and Wilfork there
DE - Matthew Judon - yep, a surprise, but this guy can REALLY get after the QB; and he LOVES playing for Bill Belichick; perfect Patriots' attitude
LB - Andre Tippett - if it wasn't for Lawrence Taylor, we'd all be speaking of Tippett in hushed tones in NFL circles; he was absolutely incredible
LB - Tedy Bruschi - not the fastest, but he was solid in all aspects of the game and a great, great, great leader
CB - Mike Haynes - as good a pure cover guy as the NFL has had to offer
CB - Ty Law - awesome in coverage, and was tough as nails; big play guy
DB - Stephon Gilmore - he proved himself to be an elite cover guy who made some HUGE plays for this team in the biggest moments
S - Devin McCourty - captain of the defense, great leader, fast, smart, good tackler, and also good in coverage; in his prime, he was phenomenal
S - Rodney Harrison - tough, big hitter, team leader

Now you'll be able to run on this team some, especially if you run at Judon. I thought about Vrabel there instead of Judon, because Vrabel is better against the run, but I thought, you know, I'm ok with giving up a little in the run game in order to have Judon's pass rushing ability. You send Tippett opposite Judon, and the QB is going to be running for his life. Then you've got Seymour and Wilfork pushing the pocket up the middle, and it's deep trouble for the QB. I also considered a third safety (Milloy probably) instead of Gilmore, for added run support, but it was just too juicy to have three cover guys as good as these three. Let McCourty play centerfield and have Harrison up in run support if needed.

In the kicking game, I just need the best they've got. Nothing too fancy.

K - Adam Vinatieri - Mr. Clutch
P - Ryan Allen - hard to pick, but he's got the best career punting average for NE and he won three SBs for them
LS - Joe Cardona - I mean...I don't know...Lonnie Paxton was good too
KR - Ellis Hobbs - played with an edge; the all-time Pats leader in KO return average
PR - Troy Brown - could break one deep, sure handed, and gives you great locker room leadership as well
Gunner - Matthew Slater - all-time great at the position; the total Patriot

Head Coach: Bill Belichick - GOAT, plain and simple
Offensive Coordinator: Josh McDaniels - criminally underrated, he was fantastic and was a good fit under Belichick
Defensive Coordinator: Romeo Crennel - really good at his job, and meshed so well with Belichick

On offense I had a different center and that was it.

BigSoxFan · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
No doubt that Hernandez was a phenomenal football player. What a weapon.

The 2013-2014 offense with prime Gronk, Hernandez, Edelman, and LaFell would have been unstoppable. 2014 team didn’t even need him, which is the scary part.

Spelunker · Jul 25, 2023

BaseballJones said:
No doubt that Hernandez was a phenomenal football player. What a weapon.

I feel like you said this without any intended irony.

jose melendez · Jul 26, 2023

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
This may shock you, but when the Patriots were playing terribly because they were owned by incompetent morons, many NE journalists blamed the outspoken African-Americans first.

I was really young then, and I have no doubt there was racist bullshit--but did the press cover for the Sullivans? My memories may be just too late in the Sullivan era, but I remember the press killing them.

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