The Next Pats QB: Daniels or Maye?

SMU_Sox

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I am not sure on next year's class. I have heard it isn't as good as this year but 2/4 guys this year were risers. I like Carson Beck a lot more than consensus right now. I am not as big a fan of Ewers. I know folks I respect have thoughts already on next year's class but I haven't had the time to listen or read it yet.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If the Pats grabbed a MHJ or Rome in this draft it certainly raises the odds of that pick being really good. But then how do they get them the ball?
 

jk333

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Great posts @SMU_Sox

I’m not rationale but give me Penix! (And assets via trading) It’s fun to root for a player; when they draft another QB I’m sure I’ll watch them and become a fan.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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I’d love them to have the choice of either picking a QB they like, or getting a haul of picks, but …. who is giving them a haul and what does it consist of?

I dont think it is the Vikings, unless you consider 11 and 23 a haul. they dont have anything good left this year, and I doubt that they’d give up next year’s #1 in a deal, because then they’d have nothing next year either (although they will likely get a couple of third round comp picks for next year’s draft).

Giants? I would have taken the first plus their two seconds plus something next year, but they traded the better of the seconds for Brian Burns.

Vegas? Too far down for me. Maybe you get one of the better LT prospects, but MHJ/Odunze/nabors will all be gone by then.

Honestly, I’d be happy if they did something with the Cardinals or the Giants or the chargers, picked up an extra second to move down a spot or two, took whatever QB was left, then packaged a couple of seconds to move back into the late first round to get a tackle. I just dont know that someone is going to offer them the multiple firsts plus that we’ve seen in other deals. Thanks Bryce Young!
 

Mystic Merlin

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I’d love them to have the choice of either picking a QB they like, or getting a haul of picks, but …. who is giving them a haul and what does it consist of?

I dont think it is the Vikings, unless you consider 11 and 23 a haul. they dont have anything good left this year, and I doubt that they’d give up next year’s #1 in a deal, because then they’d have nothing next year either (although they will likely get a couple of third round comp picks for next year’s draft).

Giants? I would have taken the first plus their two seconds plus something next year, but they traded the better of the seconds for Brian Burns.

Vegas? Too far down for me. Maybe you get one of the better LT prospects, but MHJ/Odunze/nabors will all be gone by then.

Honestly, I’d be happy if they did something with the Cardinals or the Giants or the chargers, picked up an extra second to move down a spot or two, took whatever QB was left, then packaged a couple of seconds to move back into the late first round to get a tackle. I just dont know that someone is going to offer them the multiple firsts plus that we’ve seen in other deals. Thanks Bryce Young!
It would be fairly typical to trade two additional firsts to jump into the top 3 for a QB, so not sure I’d put that past Minnesota out of hand.
 

j44thor

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@E5 Yaz depends on what the front office and ownership want to do. If they have a 3 year plan and understand it could easily take that long with Maye but want to take the home-run swing? Go with Maye. If they are out on Maye then I trade down and take probably an OT first then a WR while getting a massive haul. I wouldn't take JJM or Daniels at 3.

I also might trade back into the top 7-8 like my buddy Matt St. Jean did at Pats Pulpit and snag Odunze or Nabers. I would normally try and take an OT but the top 3 WRs are just a tier or two better than the LTs. If it were closer I would lean OT because they are harder to find. Odunze, Nabers, and MHJr are the best 3 WR prospects since I have been doing this. Personally I would go Nabers then MHJr/Odunze. I can buy any of the three as best in class. Odunze has more to work on than MHJr but his ceiling is also higher. Guys his size shouldn't be able to move like him (same goes for Nabers). I'd also have to think about Brian Thomas vs an LT. As I mentioned to a couple of you his aspirational archetype is Randy Moss. I love Thomas.
I'm surprised to hear you are that high on Thomas. I've heard some Jameson Williams comps, all speed not much wiggle and not physical at all. Granted Randy wasn't physical but he seemed better at the catch point than what I've heard about BTJ. Where do you have Ladd McConkey ranked? He lacks production but has top of class per target metrics. I think he has a much safer floor than BTJ and his ceiling is higher than most are going to give him credit for as they try to paint him a slot WR even though he plays more outside.
 

SMU_Sox

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I'm surprised to hear you are that high on Thomas. I've heard some Jameson Williams comps, all speed not much wiggle and not physical at all. Granted Randy wasn't physical but he seemed better at the catch point than what I've heard about BTJ. Where do you have Ladd McConkey ranked? He lacks production but has top of class per target metrics. I think he has a much safer floor than BTJ and his ceiling is higher than most are going to give him credit for as they try to paint him a slot WR even though he plays more outside.
Thomas has enough wiggle - he is a smooth mover for a big man and his breaks are better than what you would think for a taller receiver. I wouldn't comp to Jameson Williams. He's 30 pounds heavier than Williams. He can knock off physical coverage where Williams struggled there. He is a more complete receiver but yes they are vertical threats. I like Ladd but he has some pitfalls. He's more of an undersized Z. I think most have him as a top 30-40 guy and I am not done yet but he is more top 50-60 to me. I think Ladd has some wasted movement in his breaks, he can be more sizzle than substance. He's not a contested catch guy. He's a creative athlete in space. Ladd has a limited catch radius too. Ladd is more of a RAC guy who needs to be activated in space whereas Thomas can win and should he grow and develop dominate. They both have work to do but Thomas is a top 15 player to me so I don't see them that closely.
 

Cellar-Door

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I’d love them to have the choice of either picking a QB they like, or getting a haul of picks, but …. who is giving them a haul and what does it consist of?

I dont think it is the Vikings, unless you consider 11 and 23 a haul. they dont have anything good left this year, and I doubt that they’d give up next year’s #1 in a deal, because then they’d have nothing next year either (although they will likely get a couple of third round comp picks for next year’s draft).

Giants? I would have taken the first plus their two seconds plus something next year, but they traded the better of the seconds for Brian Burns.

Vegas? Too far down for me. Maybe you get one of the better LT prospects, but MHJ/Odunze/nabors will all be gone by then.

Honestly, I’d be happy if they did something with the Cardinals or the Giants or the chargers, picked up an extra second to move down a spot or two, took whatever QB was left, then packaged a couple of seconds to move back into the late first round to get a tackle. I just dont know that someone is going to offer them the multiple firsts plus that we’ve seen in other deals. Thanks Bryce Young!
Vikings would 100% give up 3 firsts to move up, they have to know that's the asking price at minimum, honestly likely more based on the MIA/SF deal, and given that roster I doubt they'd be that worried. They need a QB, they already have a strong team with two excellent WRs, a top TE, a very good line and a solid defense.
 

Justthetippett

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Vikings would 100% give up 3 firsts to move up, they have to know that's the asking price at minimum, honestly likely more based on the MIA/SF deal, and given that roster I doubt they'd be that worried. They need a QB, they already have a strong team with two excellent WRs, a top TE, a very good line and a solid defense.
I really wonder what is going on there. It's a better fit for a vet QB. I could also see them taking this year to bolster the roster, see if Darnold has anything, and, if not, going after Dak next year.

It's really too bad there's not a trade back into the 6-8 range that makes more sense.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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I really wonder what is going on there. It's a better fit for a vet QB. I could also see them taking this year to bolster the roster, see if Darnold has anything, and, if not, going after Dak next year.

It's really too bad there's not a trade back into the 6-8 range that makes more sense.
There really wasn’t a vet QB that made sense for them though. And having a rookie QB contract will make it much easier to retain Jefferson through his prime and keep a few other integral pieces as well.

The only “win now” vet QB was Cousins so I guess they’re hoping for a Stroud-esque impact from a rookie or are willing to punt on 2024 in the effort to extend the Jefferson window a few years
 

Cellar-Door

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There really wasn’t a vet QB that made sense for them though. And having a rookie QB contract will make it much easier to retain Jefferson through his prime and keep a few other integral pieces as well.

The only “win now” vet QB was Cousins so I guess they’re hoping for a Stroud-esque impact from a rookie or are willing to punt on 2024 in the effort to extend the Jefferson window a few years
yeah, MIN could have gone after Russ I guess, but otherwise there wasn't much, but also that is a young team, basically all their key players are early to mid-20s, a young QB for the cheap makes a lot of sense.
 

SMU_Sox

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Vikings are rumored to be open to//are-considering giving up at least 4 firsts, 11, 23, 2025, 2026 to move up to 3 + potential other picks. Moving up to 3 for a QB is a huge jump when folks know that is going out of the blue-chip range.
 

Justthetippett

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There really wasn’t a vet QB that made sense for them though. And having a rookie QB contract will make it much easier to retain Jefferson through his prime and keep a few other integral pieces as well.

The only “win now” vet QB was Cousins so I guess they’re hoping for a Stroud-esque impact from a rookie or are willing to punt on 2024 in the effort to extend the Jefferson window a few years
That's fair, but not having a QB may also make Jefferson want to get out. Franchise tags notwithstanding, he can still essentially force their hand on that.

And yeah, they could have just kept Cousins (assuming that was possible from his end).
 

Justthetippett

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Vikings are rumored to be open to//are-considering giving up at least 4 firsts, 11, 23, 2025, 2026 to move up to 3 + potential other picks. Moving up to 3 for a QB is a huge jump when folks know that is going out of the blue-chip range.
That's a deal I would do. It's the "knock your socks off" offer Reiss referred to over the weekend.
 

E5 Yaz

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Vikings are rumored to be open to//are-considering giving up at least 4 firsts, 11, 23, 2025, 2026 to move up to 3 + potential other picks. Moving up to 3 for a QB is a huge jump when folks know that is going out of the blue-chip range.
Heck for that, I'd even throw in the 6th we got for Mac
 

Cellar-Door

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If the Pats get that offer and take it, they'd almost have to take Penix at 23, wouldn't they?

They need a franchise QB in this draft.
No, because if they need a franchise QB they can't trade back. Penix is not a franchise QB. The argument for trading back is you don't think there is a franchise QB, so you ride out a year with Brissett who is perfectly okay NFL QB.

I think what you would likely see is them rolling the dice on a later QB... Rattler, Pratt someone like that.

I'd also say... if they think Penix is a franchise QB, they have to assume someone else will as well and he won't make it to 23.
 

ehaz

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Vikings are rumored to be open to//are-considering giving up at least 4 firsts, 11, 23, 2025, 2026 to move up to 3 + potential other picks. Moving up to 3 for a QB is a huge jump when folks know that is going out of the blue-chip range.
That's hard to pass up unless you really really love a QB. It hurts thought that you're out of the big 3 WR + Joe Alt range. Curious what you think about Brock Bowers. Just because of the position he plays, it seems like he's the most likely offensive "blue-chip" talent that could be available at #11. Would you take Bowers over, say, whoever the OT3 is or Brian Thomas Jr?
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Penix is such a terrible fit for the Pats, I would much prefer no QB than him.

I don’t really see a point of a 3rd (4th?) tier guy (Rattler/Pratt). If you’re punting on QB this year, they need to get as many picks as possible so they can give away their own “godfather”’offer in 2025 or 2026 to find a legitimate prospect.

Spending a 2nd rounder on Rattler or 3rd on Pratt seems like a waste of draft capital.

The bigger problem is it pushes your QB timeline 3 (?) years down the road. I cant imagine you take a guy like Rattler and use a 2nd rounder and not at least try to commit to him through 2025. Then, if he sucks, 2026 look for a guy who will likely need a year or two to blossom (how many rookie QB are good year 1? Not a ton). Now you’re talking 2027/2028 before you know what you have at the position. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Pratt in the 3rd would be easier to get away from in 2025 if he shows you nothing but if the whole point is to “build the roster so a QB can succeed” then why waste a top 100 pick on a QB instead of building the rest of the roster while you wait for a premium QB prospect.
 

BigSoxFan

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That's a deal I would do. It's the "knock your socks off" offer Reiss referred to over the weekend.
Yeah, offer 4 #1’s and you’ve got my attention. Maybe we can get them to add Addison as well. If there is some desperation related to their Jefferson situation, even better. We’re looking at a multi-year rebuild anyways.
 

Cellar-Door

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Penix is such a terrible fit for the Pats, I would much prefer no QB than him.

I don’t really see a point of a 3rd (4th?) tier guy (Rattler/Pratt). If you’re punting on QB this year, they need to get as many picks as possible so they can give away their own “godfather”’offer in 2025 or 2026 to find a legitimate prospect.

Spending a 2nd rounder on Rattler or 3rd on Pratt seems like a waste of draft capital.

The bigger problem is it pushes your QB timeline 3 (?) years down the road. I cant imagine you take a guy like Rattler and use a 2nd rounder and not at least try to commit to him through 2025. Then, if he sucks, 2026 look for a guy who will likely need a year or two to blossom (how many rookie QB are good year 1? Not a ton). Now you’re talking 2027/2028 before you know what you have at the position. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Pratt in the 3rd would be easier to get away from in 2025 if he shows you nothing but if the whole point is to “build the roster so a QB can succeed” then why waste a top 100 pick on a QB instead of building the rest of the roster while you wait for a premium QB prospect.
I think a 4th or a late 3rd is the spot for a shot at a QB. They need another QB on the roster than Brissett, and a cheap backup going forward. It's very much the "Ron Wolf Way" to take shots late at QB basically every year to get your backups with upside.

Edit- I don't think Rattler will go 2nd, maybe Pratt goes 3rd, but usually that tier of guy goes in the 3rd/4th/5th
 
Oct 12, 2023
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That's hard to pass up unless you really really love a QB. It hurts thought that you're out of the big 3 WR + Joe Alt range. Curious what you think about Brock Bowers. Just because of the position he plays, it seems like he's the most likely offensive "blue-chip" talent that could be available at #11. Would you take Bowers over, say, whoever the OT3 is or Brian Thomas Jr?
A team with no QB seems like a terrible place for Bowers given the wear and tear TE take. A select few have long careers but wasting 2+ years of Bowers’ prime with trash tier QB play doesn’t seem like an optimal strategy.

Great player but not a position I’d be confident about a 2nd contract for even if he pans out. Makes more sense as a finishing touch to an already solid roster
 

SMU_Sox

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Heck for that, I'd even throw in the 6th we got for Mac
And a bouquet of flowers. Let's keep it classy.

If the Pats get that offer and take it, they'd almost have to take Penix at 23, wouldn't they?

They need a franchise QB in this draft.
Penix could be a starter but he is likely going later than you think because of his injury history. He is also not a great fit for this offense. He would have killed in a Bruce Arians offense though. Rumor is he is going day 3 or very late day 2. If they took a QB at 23 it would be Nix who they are rumored to be at least interested in. I think Nix could possibly be a bridge starter but I don't think much of him.

That's hard to pass up unless you really really love a QB. It hurts thought that you're out of the big 3 WR + Joe Alt range. Curious what you think about Brock Bowers. Just because of the position he plays, it seems like he's the most likely offensive "blue-chip" talent that could be available at #11. Would you take Bowers over, say, whoever the OT3 is or Brian Thomas Jr?
I absolutely love Bowers and think he is a premiere TE in the receiving mold. He can also play X. He is a darling of early breakout and all the advanced and non-advanced stats. His only issue is his size. He's like the premium version of Sam Laporta. That worked out pretty well. No guarantee but I would bet on Bowers.

Penix is such a terrible fit for the Pats, I would much prefer no QB than him.

I don’t really see a point of a 3rd (4th?) tier guy (Rattler/Pratt). If you’re punting on QB this year, they need to get as many picks as possible so they can give away their own “godfather”’offer in 2025 or 2026 to find a legitimate prospect.

Spending a 2nd rounder on Rattler or 3rd on Pratt seems like a waste of draft capital.

The bigger problem is it pushes your QB timeline 3 (?) years down the road. I cant imagine you take a guy like Rattler and use a 2nd rounder and not at least try to commit to him through 2025. Then, if he sucks, 2026 look for a guy who will likely need a year or two to blossom (how many rookie QB are good year 1? Not a ton). Now you’re talking 2027/2028 before you know what you have at the position. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Pratt in the 3rd would be easier to get away from in 2025 if he shows you nothing but if the whole point is to “build the roster so a QB can succeed” then why waste a top 100 pick on a QB instead of building the rest of the roster while you wait for a premium QB prospect.
I agree with you. This is an overrated QB class. The bar for a starting QB is high and none of these guys who have their nice moments are it. I am all out on Rattler unless they get an additional round 4 pick and need a backup, which they do. If they want to take a shot on a guy day 3 that's fine by me but don't waste precious draft capital on some shitty afterthought.
 

Auger34

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Just wanted to say it’s good to have you back in here @SMU_Sox
Seconded.

I have always been Team Maye and this kind of reinforces it. However, I still think that WAS takes Daniels. He seems like a prototypical Kliff QB and that's the offense that the WFT want to run
 

DJnVa

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Unless we think the Vikings are dumb, and I don't think they are, as an organization, if we also need a franchise QB, why would we give that chance to the Vikings instead of using it ourselves?

We're at #3. Draft the QB.
 

Curt S Loew

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Unless we think the Vikings are dumb, and I don't think they are, as an organization, if we also need a franchise QB, why would we give that chance to the Vikings instead of using it ourselves?
Because 4 firsts. That's the only reason. There's a reason they would be willing to give all that up.

You have to seriously consider that. Especially if it's a starting point.
 

Cellar-Door

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Unless we think the Vikings are dumb, and I don't think they are, as an organization, if we also need a franchise QB, why would we give that chance to the Vikings instead of using it ourselves?

We're at #3. Draft the QB.
Different teams want/need different things from their QB. If it's say Daniels.... they might both see him as a lower ceiling guy, but MIN has elite talent to help their QB, they need a good, cheap QB and they can compete right now. The Patriots are looking for an elite QB to elevate the talent they need to add. Also, while I want a QB, I also want them to trust their scouting, if they think one of these guys isn;t that good... don't assume he is because another team wants him.
 

SMU_Sox

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You have to consider that Minnesota has, I think anyway, an ascending coaching staff on offense. They just finished 10th in yards per drive last year with a dreadful QB situation. They have a better offensive line, a very good receiving TE in Hockenson, a top 5 WR, a very good WR2 in Addison. They are ready to drop a QB into this offense.

The Patriots don't have a starting caliber LT, and sport a bottom 5 WR group, a mediocre TE, and a new offensive coaching staff. Vikings are doing a competitive rebuild. Patriots could compete next year based on the strength of their defense but they still have a terrible group of pass catchers in a passing league. It is a lot easier to drop Drake Maye or Daniels or JJM into the Vikings situation vs the Patriots.

@Cellar-Door said it before I did. My bad
 

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I just wonder if there is fire to the Vikings wanting 3 (or higher) would they pull the trigger before that pick is on the clock with unknown QB(s) available? If it was me, I would offer less before the draft starts and if my target was available at 3 pull the trigger with more sweeteners. Maybe something like the Eli for Rivers scenerio with more coming back to the Patriots, but no draftee is making noise about not wanting to play for the Patriots.

I was spoiled for 20 years with TB, I don't know wtf to think anymore lol.
 

luckiestman

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I have a tough time believing Maye is going to come in and be better than Sam. Daniels might be if he can stay on the field. Makes me think Vikes need to trade to 2 or see who is at 3 on draft night before anything happens.
 

luckiestman

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Funny stat time. Sam has been in the NFL for 6 years. He is 3 years older than Daniels.
 

OldeBeanTowne

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The interview answers shared in one of these threads regarding Daniels that concern me the most are about his tendency to look down when under pressure. While his athleticism seems exciting, if he is putting his head down and unable to maintain his ability to throw down field, that is a recipe for an unsuccessful NFL QB career. I have not watched film to try to confirm these impressions, nor would I have the capacity to do so, but these evaluators are supposed to, at least.

If the rumors mentioned above of Minnesota's willingness to deal draft capital for a top three pick are remotely accurate, I'm very much of the opinion that they should move down if Daniels is the option at #3. I'm not sold on Maye either and would consider doing so even if he was available. This team needs three seasons, in my opinion, to become a truly competitive playoff team. I'm making draft decisions with that frame of mind.
 

thestardawg

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I am not sure on next year's class. I have heard it isn't as good as this year but 2/4 guys this year were risers. I like Carson Beck a lot more than consensus right now. I am not as big a fan of Ewers. I know folks I respect have thoughts already on next year's class but I haven't had the time to listen or read it yet.
If the Pats trade down, is someone like Spencer Rattler worth a swing on in round 3 or 4?
 

SMU_Sox

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If the Pats trade down, is someone like Spencer Rattler worth a swing on in round 3 or 4?

I think QBs are such bad bets after round 1 that if you're going to burn a pick on one get him day 3 vs day 2. I am not a Rattler person.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think QBs are such bad bets after round 1 that if you're going to burn a pick on one get him day 3 vs day 2. I am not a Rattler person.
I think he's interesting outside the top 100, same with Pratt. Not necessarily a starter, but higher ceiling Zappe replacements in the 4th or 5th.
 

SMU_Sox

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Yeah @Cellar-Door I would take a guy day 3 for sure if they don't take someone at 3 but I highly doubt they don't take someone at 3. And from Mayo's comments they know that Drake Maye "has no floor" or whatever the quote is. I love that they are being sober about him as a prospect. That's great to hear. If Penix slides to round 4 even though I question the fit I would take him warts and all.

I am not enamored with Rattler, Milton, Travis, Hartman, etc. on day 3. I don't think any of these guys are potential starters or even necessarily good backups but anyone is better than Bailey Zappe.
 

BaseballJones

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Vikings are rumored to be open to//are-considering giving up at least 4 firsts, 11, 23, 2025, 2026 to move up to 3 + potential other picks. Moving up to 3 for a QB is a huge jump when folks know that is going out of the blue-chip range.
I want NE to take the QB at #3, but if Minnesota offers #11, #23, and first rounders in 2025 and 2026, geez...I'd think long and hard about it. That's a crap ton of draft capital, and they could move back up and maybe get the #4 QB in the draft.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah @Cellar-Door I would take a guy day 3 for sure if they don't take someone at 3 but I highly doubt they don't take someone at 3. And from Mayo's comments they know that Drake Maye "has no floor" or whatever the quote is. I love that they are being sober about him as a prospect. That's great to hear. If Penix slides to round 4 even though I question the fit I would take him warts and all.

I am not enamored with Rattler, Milton, Travis, Hartman, etc. on day 3. I don't think any of these guys are potential starters or even necessarily good backups but anyone is better than Bailey Zappe.
Yeah I want an think they take Maye, but in the scenario that they don't like the guy left and trade down I like using all early picks elsewhere then throwing a dart round 4 or 5 just for depth in the room behind Jacoby
 

brendan f

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FWIW, Scheftner sounds pretty certain Washington is going to take Daniels. From his podcast: "I know we’re not supposed to spoil picks, and we’ll see how the Commanders decide to move forward with the No. 2 overall selection...I think the signs continue to point to Jayden Daniels being the second overall pick."

Probably a good thing. He always seemed like a better fit in Washington. Faced with take Maye or trade down, will be fascinating to see what the Pats do (if it's take McCarthy instead, I might puke).
 

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OnWisc

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Would seem hard to say no to that Minny offer, but would then hope we find ourselves right back in the same situation with a top 3 pick next year, as if that deal sets a new price point, could be very expensive to trade back up for our own QB in future years.
 

BigJimEd

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Remember, Schefter and others had San Fran taking mac at #3 until they didn't. Lot of crap thrown around at this point.
 

BaseballJones

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Maye went #2 in this draft to Washington, and I got a trade offer from LAC - I gave them #3 and they gave me #5 and #37. I figured between them and Arizona, that Daniels and/or McCarthy would still be on the board at #5. I was right. So I got Daniels and then two good OT and two WRs with potential, plus some defensive help including one of the better LB prospects in the whole draft. If we did this, while I prefer Maye over Daniels, overall I think I'd be thrilled with this draft, at least on paper.

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