The Nation's Tears: Pink Stripes

amarshal2

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
That's where I stand too.  I have nothing but respect for Seattle and, for various reasons, I don't like our chances that much in a potential rematch.  Since winning another Super Bowl is the goal, I'm happy to see the toughest possible opponent get into a little trouble early in the season.
 
Maybe this is for another day but I got the impression throughout that Super Bowl that the team more likely to win 6/10 matches was the Patriots not the Hawks.  Clearly it was a very even match but for the most part the NE game plans worked.  The Hawks really, really struggled to move the ball.  The majority of their offense came on passes to Chris Matthews because he was tall, at the end of the first half when the Pats were playing soft, and on a circus catch.  Most of the rest of the game the Seahawks were completely unable to move the ball.  By contrast, it may have been difficult, but the NE short crossing routes game plan worked very well at moving the ball and putting points on the board.  I also like TB to have fewer than 2 picks in a typical game.
 
By contrast, the Seahawks are not a game plan team.  They just go up there and do what they do.  They happen to do it so much better than what everyone else does that they're one of the best in football -- but I don't think you'll see a change from them.  They're not going to go away from their style of play because they can't.  They won't move the ball with Wilson as a pocket passer and they won't stop Gronk with man-D.
 
The elephant in the room is Revis and Browner but other teams manage to slow down Wilson by making him uncomfortable.  I'm making the assumption that the Patriots front 7 is markedly improved over last year at making Wilson uncomfortable come NFL week 21.  This could be off base.
 

Jimbodandy

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
That's where I stand too.  I have nothing but respect for Seattle and, for various reasons, I don't like our chances that much in a potential rematch.  Since winning another Super Bowl is the goal, I'm happy to see the toughest possible opponent get into a little trouble early in the season.
 
As hard as that loss was for them--and we can relate--I haven't read a single thing written in sour grapes.  Half of the teams in the AFC blame the evil Pats for cheating them out of their rightful place atop the mountain, and that goes back before Spygate even (hello Steelers and Chargers "better team" arguments).  Nothing of the sort has come from Seattle fans that I've seen.  
 

rodderick

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Marciano490 said:
I'm just happy to see a really scary team take a loss.  They're still the NFC team I'd least like to defend the title against.
Much rather face Seattle than Green Bay. I trust Brady against any defense, I don't trust this defense against a quarterback like Rodgers.
 

tims4wins

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tims4wins said:
To TheoShmeo's point about the Lynch run - did anyone see Indy's first TD yesterday? It was the exact same play as the Butler pick. And Montcrief was WIDE open. He just walked into the end zone, not a defender within 3 yards of him. Just a little more fuel to the fire that running wasn't so obvious.
 
Here is the play - this is what Seattle thought their last offensive play of the Super Bowl was going to look like
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000529055/Colts-Andrew-Luck-connects-with-Donte-Moncrief-for-2-yard-TD
 
How do you embed this type of video by the way?
 

simplyeric

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drleather2001 said:
Well, she does kind of have a point.


It's one thing to be happy about your team, it's another to rub it other fans' faces.
 
I think there's a way to contuinue to enjoy the Patriots's win, and the Seahawks's's loss, without necessarily being bad winners, or rubbing it in their face, or anything like that.
 
After both of The Superbowls of our Discontent, plenty of Giants fans have given me a hard time about those games.  Whatever, it is what it is.  Easy for me, because we had the 3 previous Super Bowl wins, and now a 4th.  But still, it's up to both sides to take the win or loss with some grace.
 
My best NFL friends can take some ribbing about their losses, and certainly should be able to engage in discussion about the actual game and what happened.
Not so much the Pittsburgh fans, but certainly others.   
 
Doesn't seem like jmanny was over the top...sounds like his friend is a a little more sensitive about the topic than she should be.  Ending a friendship over some Super Bowl smack talk?  That's pretty lame.
 
 
 
 
 
So one of my friends from college is a Steelers/Yankees/Lakers fan (because of college/high school/elementary-jr. high respectively).  After a brief exchange about #DFG her response was:  yeah but Pedro isn't even a human being, he's so disgusting, and that cocky attitude and bad sportsmanship (she, a fan of Jeter, A-rod, Clemens, Giambi, Kobe, Big Ben.......).
 
Our discussions can get heated, but it's all in fun in the end.  It's sports...a little humble pie in your face now and then is part of (being a fan of) the game.
 
oh any my father-in-law:  "fucking Tuck Rule (grumble grumble) god damn Patriots (incoherent)... go Raiders"
 

simplyeric

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tims4wins said:
 
Here is the play - this is what Seattle thought their last offensive play of the Super Bowl was going to look like
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000529055/Colts-Andrew-Luck-connects-with-Donte-Moncrief-for-2-yard-TD
 
How do you embed this type of video by the way?
 
holy shit I can't even watch that without thinking that's the Seahawks winning the superbowl....
 
Can you post a video of "beast mode" getting stuffed at the goal line last season?   
 

Hector Salamanca

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Jimbodandy said:
 
As hard as that loss was for them--and we can relate--I haven't read a single thing written in sour grapes.  Half of the teams in the AFC blame the evil Pats for cheating them out of their rightful place atop the mountain, and that goes back before Spygate even (hello Steelers and Chargers "better team" arguments).  Nothing of the sort has come from Seattle fans that I've seen.  
I think people taking pleasure in Lynch's run failing yesterday comes mostly from a perceived notion that people constantly said it wasn't a once-in-a-lifetime play from Butler that won the Pats the game, but by the Seahawks losing it from an apparent (which we know is debatable, at best) botched play call. The Seahawks fans themselves here may just be collateral damage.
 

epraz

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Old Fart Tree said:
It's a little lame to be celebrating the Hawks' loss. Like, we beat them, it's over, they are not in our conference. I know DFG has everyone salty but Seattle had literally nothing to do with that shit, they just happened to be the next team in the way. Now the Colts and Ravens on the other hand, celebrate their misfortune all you want.
 
Agreed.  In comparison, to the other teams the Pats beat in the playoffs, the Seahawks look great
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Ed Hillel said:
I was driving past Philly last night and picked up their radio. Brian Dawkins was on and asked about Deflategate. He said that it "was not fair to the 1,500 other players that Brady went unpunished completely." When the host brought up evidence and asked if there was actually any of it against Brady, Dawkins said "no." There was an awkward silence, and the host prodded Dawkins to put those together and he said, "Well, but why did the Patriots lose a 1st and 4th round pick. What more evidence do you need?" More awkward silence. Then he went casually on to, "well, do you really think they would have deflated those footballs without Tom's knowledge?"

There is simply a lack of understanding about even the most fundamental aspects of science. You don't need to know the IGL or its formula, but at least the knowledge hot air expands and cold air contracts should be enough to at least cause some pause. But nope. The PSI dropped, and the only possible explanation is that someone let air out of the footballs. It's sad.
 
Unfortunately the science was never publicly framed along the lines of "hey idiots, did you ever leave a basketball out in the garage?" I think the closest we got was BB's "everybody knows a ball loses air pressure in the cold" comment when exactly nobody was inclined to believe a word he said. And sciencing the shit out of it was never going to make the point click for most people, especially not when the two famous pop scientists were out there spreading misinformation.
 

nighthob

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Ale Xander said:
Fun fact (to extend the point t4w made about a hangover):
 
All 3 losers to the Pats in the SB have not returned to the SB in the 10+ years following the loss.
 
Damnit, Rodney Harrison, if you'd punched that ball away Brady would have six rings!  :buddy:
 

jmanny24

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simplyeric said:
 
I think there's a way to contuinue to enjoy the Patriots's win, and the Seahawks's's loss, without necessarily being bad winners, or rubbing it in their face, or anything like that.
 
After both of The Superbowls of our Discontent, plenty of Giants fans have given me a hard time about those games.  Whatever, it is what it is.  Easy for me, because we had the 3 previous Super Bowl wins, and now a 4th.  But still, it's up to both sides to take the win or loss with some grace.
 
My best NFL friends can take some ribbing about their losses, and certainly should be able to engage in discussion about the actual game and what happened.
Not so much the Pittsburgh fans, but certainly others.   
 
Doesn't seem like jmanny was over the top...sounds like his friend is a a little more sensitive about the topic than she should be.  Ending a friendship over some Super Bowl smack talk?  That's pretty lame.
 
 
 
 
 
So one of my friends from college is a Steelers/Yankees/Lakers fan (because of college/high school/elementary-jr. high respectively).  After a brief exchange about #DFG her response was:  yeah but Pedro isn't even a human being, he's so disgusting, and that cocky attitude and bad sportsmanship (she, a fan of Jeter, A-rod, Clemens, Giambi, Kobe, Big Ben.......).
 
Our discussions can get heated, but it's all in fun in the end.  It's sports...a little humble pie in your face now and then is part of (being a fan of) the game.
 
oh any my father-in-law:  "fucking Tuck Rule (grumble grumble) god damn Patriots (incoherent)... go Raiders"
That's what I'm saying. It wasn't meant to be a shot at them at all I just couldn't believe the irony of what he said. So because some teams lose close, tough games we can't make simple observations about the games they play or things they say without it being considered piling on even six months later? That's hilarious, seems perhaps I'm not the one that needs to move on.
 

nighthob

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Hector Salamanca said:
I think people taking pleasure in Lynch's run failing yesterday comes mostly from a perceived notion that people constantly said it wasn't a once-in-a-lifetime play from Butler that won the Pats the game, but by the Seahawks losing it from an apparent (which we know is debatable, at best) botched play call. The Seahawks fans themselves here may just be collateral damage.
 
I said it at the time, there was nothing wrong with the play call, it was the QB's decision making that was the problem. The left side of the Patriot defense was wide open as a result of the pass coverage, Wilson could have jogged in for a TD, it's on him to realize that Browner's blown up the pick and that Butler's free to play the ball.
 

Hector Salamanca

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nighthob said:
 
I said it at the time, there was nothing wrong with the play call, it was the QB's decision making that was the problem. The left side of the Patriot defense was wide open as a result of the pass coverage, Wilson could have jogged in for a TD, it's on him to realize that Browner's blown up the pick and that Butler's free to play the ball.
Oh, I can definitely agree with that - poor execution on Wilson's part (both the decision to throw and the throw itself) was why Butler was able to make the play he was. I just think that the national bitching about the playcall is the root of why people are happy that Seattle blew it yesterday even when they did call a run.
 

Leather

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Super Nomario said:
 
U MAD BRO?
 
 
You got me.  I had no idea that Jmanny is actually Tom Brady.
 
In that case, he has every right to gloat.
 

Devizier

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( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
 
I think a lot of people just really don't like that Seattle team. 
 
You see, I'm the opposite. I love the big talk and the performance to back it up. I love how salty the Seahawks make everyone.
 
Seriously, if this offseason hasn't been sufficient evidence to prove that "sportmanship" is bullshit as far as the NFL is concerned, I don't know what will.
 
I do agree that the "12th man" is stupid as shit. And fuck Wilson's concussion water.
 

Al Zarilla

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simplyeric said:
 
holy shit I can't even watch that without thinking that's the Seahawks winning the superbowl....
 
Gave me a quick shudder too. Preparation, practice, practice, practice and more practice and Malcolm nailed it. Browner did good too.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Hector Salamanca said:
I think people taking pleasure in Lynch's run failing yesterday comes mostly from a perceived notion that people constantly said it wasn't a once-in-a-lifetime play from Butler that won the Pats the game, but by the Seahawks losing it from an apparent (which we know is debatable, at best) botched play call. The Seahawks fans themselves here may just be collateral damage.
 
What gets me about the "see, Lynch wasn't a lock" stuff based on yesterday's play is that the Super Bowl play wasn't yet do or die.  If the 'Hawks ran the exact play on 2nd down as they did yesterday, maybe it does get stuffed.  But, barring a fumble, they still have the ball and two more chances once it's over.  So it really says nothing about the Super Bowl situation that Lynch got stuffed on 4th and 1.
 
That's not to mention that the failure yesterday wasn't really on Lynch failing so much as the play call.  A draw with the QB in the shotgun is a play call begging for the Rams to be suckered into thinking Wilson was really going to pass.  But the Rams didn't appear to respect the chances of a pass there one iota, and sold out the stop the run (successfully, of course).
 
In either situation, had they just lined up in a jumbo package of some sort with Wilson starting under center and done a normal handoff to Lynch, he'd have probably scored in the Super Bowl and made the first down yesterday.  All that yesterday confirmed for me is Carroll (or his OC) is clueless in high pressure, short yardage situations.
 

Marciano490

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Plus, there are a dozen other differences between a goal line play and one run mid-field that people are overlooking, but, yes, it does go to show that Lynch does not always gain positive yardage, so thankfully we have that confirmed again.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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amarshal2 said:
 
The elephant in the room is Revis and Browner but other teams manage to slow down Wilson by making him uncomfortable.  I'm making the assumption that the Patriots front 7 is markedly improved over last year at making Wilson uncomfortable come NFL week 21.  This could be off base.
I forget which show it was, do your job or Americas game, but BB said that game plan around Wilson was contain rather than get after him. With a secondary of Revis and Browner you can do that and rely on your DBs to lockdown the receivers. With them gone, they would need a new native hair so I sure hope the front 7 is markedly improved. I'm with you though, Pats win 6 of 10.
 

TheoShmeo

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soxfan121 said:
These posts were moved from the Seahawks thread:
 
wibi's right. Posting stuff celebrating the Patriots in the Seahawks thread is inappropriate. If you simply must post crap like this, do it in the right thread: this one. 
 
I disagree that a post about the Seahawks' play calling does not belong in the Seahawks thread.  You and any other mod/dope are of course free to move any post you like, but Seattle's decision making on that play was one of the most analyzed aspects of that Super Bowl (and really, any Super Bowl) and, as we saw, a play that happened in week one shed immediate light on it.  
 
And Wibi, apologies for being over the top.  No offense intended.  I certainly don't need to think about Carroll's decision making to be pleased about the Pats.
 

dbn

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Ed Hillel said:
I was driving past Philly last night and picked up their radio. Brian Dawkins was on and asked about Deflategate. He said that it "was not fair to the 1,500 other players that Brady went unpunished completely." When the host brought up evidence and asked if there was actually any of it against Brady, Dawkins said "no." There was an awkward silence, and the host prodded Dawkins to put those together and he said, "Well, but why did the Patriots lose a 1st and 4th round pick. What more evidence do you need?" More awkward silence. Then he went casually on to, "well, do you really think they would have deflated those footballs without Tom's knowledge?"

There is simply a lack of understanding about even the most fundamental aspects of science. You don't need to know the IGL or its formula, but at least the knowledge hot air expands and cold air contracts should be enough to at least cause some pause. But nope. The PSI dropped, and the only possible explanation is that someone let air out of the footballs. It's sad.
 
While the bolded is true, I think the issue involved with what you posted isn't a problem of understanding science, it's a problem of being able to use basic logic. It's scary that so many people in this country don't understand basic science. It's terrifying that they can't use simple logic.
 

Ed Hillel

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dbn said:
 
While the bolded is true, I think the issue involved with what you posted isn't a problem of understanding science, it's a problem of being able to use basic logic. It's scary that so many people in this country don't understand basic science. It's terrifying that they can't use simple logic.
Right, it's both. I was not clear, I was referencing the jump that something must have happened to the footballs. The logic was even more painful. You could tell he was struggling mightily and had to get bailed by the host.
 

Dan Murfman

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dbn said:
 
While the bolded is true, I think the issue involved with what you posted isn't a problem of understanding science, it's a problem of being able to use basic logic. It's scary that so many people in this country don't understand basic science. It's terrifying that they can't use simple logic.
 

weeba

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Given that this seems to be the catch-all Pats' thread this year -- This was just in /r/NFL when someone asked what the Pats' outlook was with Bledsoe in 2001:
 
 
"Current: 31. Prev: 29. New England Patriots (0-2). This is sad. Drew Bledsoe took a big hit and is out indefinitely. Honestly, I don't know what weapons they have with which to win a game."
 
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20010929194915/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2001/09/25/power_rankings/
 

tims4wins

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weeba said:
Given that this seems to be the catch-all Pats' thread this year -- This was just in /r/NFL when someone asked what the Pats' outlook was with Bledsoe in 2001:
 
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20010929194915/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2001/09/25/power_rankings/
 
I am now going through week by week from 2001.
 
This was from after the Phins beat the Pats in the 4th game to send the Pats to 1-3:
 


Dave Wannstedt marveled at the read Bill Belichick had on his first play, dropping linebacker Mike Vrabel into coverage for the interception, anticipating the pass when for three weeks the Dolphins had started each game with a run.
 
CHEATING SINCE 2001
 

Leather

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I miss Dr. Z's rankings.  From that same ranking:
 
 
Indianapolis Colts (2-0) 
Again the no-huddle, with Peyton Manning calling the game at the line, ran up a big tally. This reminds me of the genesis of the Buffalo hurry-up in the early '90s. It's effective when we use it so why not use it all the time? The only problem is the frenetic pace that it puts on my charting mechanism.
 
 
Ah, back when strategy was admired and analogized to previous eras. Not labeled as "operating in a gray area" or "skirting the rules."
 

nighthob

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Otherwise known as the difference between the NFL's adult years and its new crybaby era.
 

edmunddantes

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People are crazy... literally had this conversation with one guy:
 
"Let's not forget Woodson's uncalled hit to Brady's head during the tuck rule play"
 
"Perfectly legal" 
 
"Head slaps have been illegal since the 80's or so"
 
"It was actually the 70's, but if you think that deserved a flag you're crazy" 
 
"So to make sure I'm up to speed, we've gone from 'perfectly legal' to 'you think that deserved a flag?'"
 
"Because I said you're crazy? Watch the video, it wouldn't even be called in today's games."
 
"Ok we have now moved on to the stage where we debate the illegal act was illegal enough to be called."
 
"It's like roughing the passer, was it 'too late'? Or a low hit in a QB, was it intended or blocked into?"
 
"Hit to head is illegal (no gray area), he was clean to Brady from blind side, intent doesn't matter, next"
 
"I can't believe you call that a hit. It wasn't Deacon Jones out there. I should have looked at your picture before thinking any intelligence would come from you."
 
My picture being the Patriots' North Remember photoshop banner.
 
To be honest, that was more fun than I thought it would be.
 

BroodsSexton

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I had an exchange with a Steelers fan recently about integrity, and suggested they could sign Bill Cosby to shore up their protection for Roethlisberger. That was fun, too.
 

Red Right Ankle

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No, he used the slash to denote two separate scenarios, rather than a conflation of the two. The sentences he was trying to evoke were:
 
"If they are so good at the 2 minute drill, why don't they run their 2 minute offense all the time?"
 
OR 
 
"If they are so good in the red zone, why don't they run their red zone offense all the time?"
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Bellhorn said:
What exactly is a "red zone/two minute drill"?
Either/or. 
 
"If a team's red zone offense is so good, why dont they use that offense the whole game?"
 
"If a team's two minute drill is so good, why dont they use that offense the whole game?"
 
"If a hitter has such a high average with two strikes on him, why doesnt he go up that and just swing at the first two pitches?"
 
Yes, you do hear and read those things.....
 
EDIT:  Thanks TheStory, I started replying then had to take a call in the middle of replying.
 

edmunddantes

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"If his changeup is so good, why doesn't he throw it all the time?"

I always like to think of red zone/2 minute drill question as the equivalent of the question above.
 

Gash Prex

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I love how every coach copies BB in everything. I've see numerous coach speeches talking about "doing your job" and using the "On to X team" when questioned in the media.
 

E5 Yaz

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Gash Prex said:
I love how every coach copies BB in everything. I've see numerous coach speeches talking about "doing your job" and using the "On to X team" when questioned in the media.
 
He got those by bugging the opponents locker rooms
 

Ed Hillel

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Bill Polian just said on ESPN that he had a first round grade on Brady. This guy is the best.
 

Byrdbrain

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So we are to believe that since they weren't in the market for a QB that they passed on taking a flyer on a 1st rd player in the 4th or 5th round. Oh Bill.
 
As an aside Giardi is running with #thingsbillpolianbelieves on twitter.
 

J.McG

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Ed Hillel said:
Bill Polian just said on ESPN that he had a first round grade on Brady. This guy is the best.
From Doug Farrar's interview w/ Polian, published today:

SI: Who were some of the draftable quarterbacks in the first decade of the new millennium who you looked at and thought, "Yeah we could have done some amazing things with this guy"?

Polian: Well, Roethlisberger later on [in 2004] we were really high on him. Aaron Rodgers the year after. That's the only name that comes to mind right away. And I don't think there was a guy in between, but Tom Brady would have been a guy, and we were very high on him. Our guys really loved him, but we weren't in the quarterback market, obviously. Those would be the guys I remember us giving solid, first-round, can-lead-you-to-a-championship grades.

SI: You had a first-round grade on Brady? What did you like so much about him?

Polian: Brady was less of a slam-dunk, of course. Less of a known commodity than Peyton was. But he had such a great last half of his last season [at Michigan], and fought Drew Henson for the starter's job, and he really came on. I don't remember where we ultimately put him, but it was certainly a very high grade. We weren't in the quarterback business, and it wasn't going to be an issue for us, but it was a very high grade.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/18/bill-polian-hall-of-fame-buffalo-bills-carolina-panthers-indianapolis-colts

Apparently 1st round-graded Tom Brady not enough of an upgrade over the likes of Kelly Holcomb, Billy Joe Hobert, Mark Rypien, and other Manning backups of the early 2000s to justify a 5th round flyer. Polian cranking the BS meter up to 11 here.
 

djbayko

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J.McG said:
From Doug Farrar's interview w/ Polian, published today:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/18/bill-polian-hall-of-fame-buffalo-bills-carolina-panthers-indianapolis-colts

Apparently 1st round-graded Tom Brady not enough of an upgrade over the likes of Kelly Holcomb, Billy Joe Hobert, Mark Rypien, and other Manning backups of the early 2000s to justify a 5th round flyer. Polian cranking the BS meter up to 11 here.
So they thought Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, and Brady were all first round talents and that each could lead a team to a championship. And he couldn't name any other QBs they were high on.

The man has incredible hindsight.
 

wibi

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TheoShmeo said:
I disagree that a post about the Seahawks' play calling does not belong in the Seahawks thread.  You and any other mod/dope are of course free to move any post you like, but Seattle's decision making on that play was one of the most analyzed aspects of that Super Bowl (and really, any Super Bowl) and, as we saw, a play that happened in week one shed immediate light on it.  
 
And Wibi, apologies for being over the top.  No offense intended.  I certainly don't need to think about Carroll's decision making to be pleased about the Pats.
 
You dont get it.  You have never gotten it.
 
The only reason you even apologized for this is because you got called out on it.  
 
Seattle's decision making in week 1 of 2015 is completely separated from what happened in 2014.  There is zero chance they run a read option out of the shotgun on the goal line in the Superbowl.  They shouldnt have run a read option against the best DL in the NFL on 4th and short in OT.  But they didnt run the ball on the last play of week 1 because of anything even remotely related to what happened in the Superbowl no matter what people want to believe.  
 

johnmd20

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New York City
wibi said:
 
You dont get it.  You have never gotten it.
 
The only reason you even apologized for this is because you got called out on it.  
 
Seattle's decision making in week 1 of 2015 is completely separated from what happened in 2014.  There is zero chance they run a read option out of the shotgun on the goal line in the Superbowl.  They shouldnt have run a read option against the best DL in the NFL on 4th and short in OT.  But they didnt run the ball on the last play of week 1 because of anything even remotely related to what happened in the Superbowl no matter what people want to believe.  
 
You say this with the confidence of someone who is certain. But you aren't certain. Seems like there are some things you don't get, either.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
djbayko said:
So they thought Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, and Brady were all first round talents and that each could lead a team to a championship. And he couldn't name any other QBs they were high on.

The man has incredible hindsight.
Florio:

Polian either has lied or copped to stunning draft incompetence. If you have a first round grade on a QB, and he falls to anywhere near where Brady fell, you draft him -- Peyton Manning is irrelevant to this basic calculation.