The Last Dance

Papelbon's Poutine

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Why are people trying to extrapolate this outside what is was? It's a documentary on the 98 Bulls and how they got there. Jordan is obviously the biggest piece of that, but once the team was disbanded, the story is over. It's not a Ken Burns project.
 

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Ramona Shelburne gets Reinsdorf to dish on trying to get one more year out of the squad.

Spoiler: Phil initially killed it; he'd moved on emotionally, had said his goodbyes. But it was clear that Jerry Krause was at no point interested in mending fences.

 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That is so cool. Thank you for sharing it. That doesn't even look like LeBron there given his physical transformation.

One other thought- Reggie Miller has played against some amazing players in his career. Bird, Magic, the 80s/90s Pistons, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Nash, KG, Pierce, AI, Kidd, LeBron and, of course Scal.
 

BigSoxFan

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That is so cool. Thank you for sharing it. That doesn't even look like LeBron there given his physical transformation.

One other thought- Reggie Miller has played against some amazing players in his career. Bird, Magic, the 80s/90s Pistons, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Nash, KG, Pierce, AI, Kidd, LeBron and, of course Scal.
Speaking of Miller, I was amazed to recently learn that he was only a 5 time all-star. I thought he had 8 or 9 under his belt.
 

Ale Xander

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Speaking of Miller, I was amazed to recently learn that he was only a 5 time all-star. I thought he had 8 or 9 under his belt.
He played shooting guard in the East. Someone else was pretty good so there was usually one other spot.
Dumars took it a couple times, Ainge once, Lewis once, Hawkins once. Other than than crazy WTF year in 94 when you know who was out and BJ Armstrong started, he got his respect.
 

BigSoxFan

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He played shooting guard in the East. Someone else was pretty good so there was usually one other spot.
Dumars took it a couple times, Ainge once, Lewis once, Hawkins once. Other than than crazy WTF year in 94 when you know who was out and BJ Armstrong started, he got his respect.
He looks to have gotten semi-screwed in 1991 and 1992. Alvin Robertson? Hersey Hawkins? Ricky Pierce? C’mon. I want a congressional hearing on this.
 

Marciano490

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Speaking of Miller, I was amazed to recently learn that he was only a 5 time all-star. I thought he had 8 or 9 under his belt.
There was a documentary on UCLA women‘s basketball on a little while back - I didn’t realize his sister was considered the best of all time when she was playing.
 

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Am I the only one to "What if" a MJ/Bias rivalry at least a few times over the 10 hours of the documentary?

Imagine the NBA following up Bird/Magic with a dozen years of Jordan and Bias.
 

bosockboy

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I think it does all come back to MJ. The Dream Team needed MJ in a way it didn't need those other players, so he was going to have some final say over the roster. If it was him or Isiah, Isiah wasn't getting on the team.

Yeah, Isiah had some missteps with Bird and Magic, but I kind of doubt Bird would care enough about Isiah's comments from five years ago to hold that kind of grudge over him. Magic was the ultimate team player and I can't imagine him not playing for the Dream Team because of Isiah, who he still holds as a close friend to this day. MJ on the other hand, was the king of holding grudges.
What always gets ignored is that Stockton was a better player than Isiah in 1992.
 

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Am I the only one to "What if" a MJ/Bias rivalry at least a few times over the 10 hours of the documentary?

Imagine the NBA following up Bird/Magic with a dozen years of Jordan and Bias.
The Bias “what if” breaks my brain every time I go down that dark path.
 

bosockboy

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Am I the only one to "What if" a MJ/Bias rivalry at least a few times over the 10 hours of the documentary?

Imagine the NBA following up Bird/Magic with a dozen years of Jordan and Bias.
If Bias is around, Bird and McHale’s peak last 3-4 more years and the Pistons never see The Finals. Feel pretty confident in that. And we win the 1987 Finals.
 

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Watching this with my kids was great. This was their first real introduction to Johnny Most, the Bad Boy Pistons, Kerr as a player, OT games where both teams scored in the 80s, etc. We went down a few YT rabbit holes after some of the episodes.

I loved reliving the basketball of my teenage years and young adulthood. I'm glad my kids will have the Warriors to look back on when they are my age.
 

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There was a documentary on UCLA women‘s basketball on a little while back - I didn’t realize his sister was considered the best of all time when she was playing.
She played for USC, not UCLA. (Though the documentary could still have been about UCLA...)
 

The Social Chair

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That is so cool. Thank you for sharing it. That doesn't even look like LeBron there given his physical transformation.

One other thought- Reggie Miller has played against some amazing players in his career. Bird, Magic, the 80s/90s Pistons, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Nash, KG, Pierce, AI, Kidd, LeBron and, of course Scal.
A few weeks ago I was thinking about how Shaq played against 3 generations of PGs (Magic/Isiah to Kidd to Steph), SGs (Jordan to Kobe to Wade), SFs (Pippen to McGrady to Lebron), PFs (McHale to Barkley to KG/Dirk), and Cs (Hakeem to Duncan to Dwight), but Reggie is probably a cooler example.
 

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The P-L-O chant was at Arizona State. It's still one of the first things I associate with that school. Every last one of those students should have been kicked out of school.
It is emblematic of ASU that they would do that and then chant the initials of the wrong organization. At Cal they would have at least gotten the right terrorist group.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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There was a documentary on UCLA women‘s basketball on a little while back - I didn’t realize his sister was considered the best of all time when she was playing.
There’s a great little throw away line in Seinfeld when Kramer gets into a fight with Reggie and Spike Lee at a Knicks game and Elaine says ‘Cheryl Miller’s little brother plays basketball?’
 

Kliq

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Reggie was doing commentary for a Cavs game once and Anthony Parker was playing for Cleveland and Reggie said "Anthony Parker and I are the only two NBA players who were not as good as their sisters."
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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IIRC, Miller was unappreciated in the 90s because of his style of play and swagger. He seemed widely disliked but I also got most of my NBA news through a New York media filter. And dislike is too mild a word for how NY sports circles felt about Reggie. Of course, that made me like him even more.

Like a lot of greats and also very good players, Miller mastered the mental game too. He is the definition of a provocateur in the sporting sense. He also was and is amusing as hell.
 

RGREELEY33

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Horace Grant absolutely lights up Jordan and the "so-called documentary". It also references how upset Pippen is about his portrayal in it.

I am only 5 episodes in, and have enjoyed it so far mostly for the historical glory-days feel of it -- but I have always hated Michael Jordan the dude, just seems like such a dick, and I will never get over his HofF speech which was the most un-gracious speech I have ever seen given.

 

djbayko

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Horace Grant absolutely lights up Jordan and the "so-called documentary". It also references how upset Pippen is about his portrayal in it.

I am only 5 episodes in, and have enjoyed it so far mostly for the historical glory-days feel of it -- but I have always hated Michael Jordan the dude, just seems like such a dick, and I will never get over his HofF speech which was the most un-gracious speech I have ever seen given.

I don’t understand Scottie’s beef. Overall, he is portrayed pretty damn well - as the perfect, athletically freakish Robin to Jordan’s Batman. Sure, they cover two incidents where he refused to play and let his teammates down. Does he contend those weren’t true?

Also, the standard of calling something a “so called documentary” because some things were left on the editing room floor would mean that documentaries don’t exist.
 

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I don’t understand Scottie’s beef. Overall, he is portrayed pretty damn well - as the perfect, athletically freakish Robin to Jordan’s Batman. Sure, they cover two incidents where he refused to play and let his teammates down. Does he contend those weren’t true?
Was there a game other than the one with Kukoc's last-second shot in which Pippen "refused to play and let his teammates down"? I wouldn't put his migraine game in that category. Anybody who's ever had one knows they can be debilitating.
 

tims4wins

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Was there a game other than the one with Kukoc's last-second shot in which Pippen "refused to play and let his teammates down"? I wouldn't put his migraine game in that category. Anybody who's ever had one knows they can be debilitating.
The problem is they portrayed the migraine game a little differently. IIRC Jordan said something along the lines of "Scottie said he couldn't play", but there was doubt or whatever in Jordan's voice. It was like they didn't really believe him. As someone who gets migraines from time to time, you're absolutely right. When I get an aura I am basically incapable of doing anything for 30-60 minutes since I can't see.
 

128

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The problem is they portrayed the migraine game a little differently. IIRC Jordan said something along the lines of "Scottie said he couldn't play", but there was doubt or whatever in Jordan's voice. It was like they didn't really believe him. As someone who gets migraines from time to time, you're absolutely right. When I get an aura I am basically incapable of doing anything for 30-60 minutes since I can't see.
Jordan definitely seemed skeptical, which is probably typical for someone who's never dealt with a migraine.
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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I don’t understand Scottie’s beef. Overall, he is portrayed pretty damn well - as the perfect, athletically freakish Robin to Jordan’s Batman. Sure, they cover two incidents where he refused to play and let his teammates down. Does he contend those weren’t true?

Also, the standard of calling something a “so called documentary” because some things were left on the editing room floor would mean that documentaries don’t exist.
This. I love Pippen and I also thought he was actually portrayed fairly well. Early in the series, Jordan himself says you can't say Jordan without saying Pippen. I mean, if this isn't the highest praise, I don't know what is. The documentary even suggested that the triangle offense worked better when MJ was away because Scottie had a better distributor mindset.

The only times he doesn't come across well, I thought, were actually due to his own words. When he explained why he didn't have the surgery - and especially when he said that if he had to do the infamous not come off the bench thing, he would do it again. I was flabbergasted when he said that.
 

djbayko

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Was there a game other than the one with Kukoc's last-second shot in which Pippen "refused to play and let his teammates down"? I wouldn't put his migraine game in that category. Anybody who's ever had one knows they can be debilitating.
His delayed surgery and subsequent hold out at the beginning of the 1998 season.

I don’t count the migraine game either, and I don’t think Jordan was implyaibg it was fake in the documentary at all.
 

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Jordan definitely seemed skeptical, which is probably typical for someone who's never dealt with a migraine.
......and typical for someone who would have dropped 15, 4 and 3 even with a migraine.
 

djbayko

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Yeah, you can’t say “I’d do it again” wrt the Knicks game and expect anyone to take you seriously ever again.
Meh. I didn’t think much of that. A lot of people carry the philosophy that they wouldn’t change anything in their lives because they lived and learned and it’s made them who they are today. It’s not outrageous. It may have even made them stronger as a team for having gone through that together and come out the other side. And they won the game.

I don’t know exactly why he said that. Nobody does because the documentary doesn’t show him expanding on that thought. Maybe he’s just a dick, but that’s not the only possibility.
 
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InstaFace

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Was there a game other than the one with Kukoc's last-second shot in which Pippen "refused to play and let his teammates down"? I wouldn't put his migraine game in that category. Anybody who's ever had one knows they can be debilitating.
If anything, they went out of their way to portray him as a hero for how he battled his back injury in 1998 Finals Game 6. They covered the Kukoc-shot one with a lot of humanity, about how it affected the team and then they got over it. His contract issues were covered in episode 2 and then his surgery absence... and there were like a million quotes from his teammates talking about how criminally underpaid he was. And they gave him plenty of softball moments about him being a comforting leader during Jordan's first retirement / sojourn.

I don't see how anyone could watch that documentary and come out thinking Scottie Pippen was anything less than a saint for putting up with Jordan for that long and being able to get the most out of his talent. For every negative moment of Pippen's that they played up, (A) he got half a dozen positive ones, and (B) they portrayed half a dozen of Jordan's, um, challenges, too. I mean, they went right after Jordan's bullying of teammates. I wouldn't say the documentary pulled no punches, but it was an eminently fair portrayal, I thought. You gotta go way out of your way to take offense if you're Pippen.
 

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Apologize for the diversion, but can any of you who know the game better explain to me why Scottie’s numbers fell off a cliff the year after the Last Dance. He went to Houston (which I have no memory of) and then to Portland for the rest of his career but never averaged even 15 points/game again. Was he just broken down by then?
 

tims4wins

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Apologize for the diversion, but can any of you who know the game better explain to me why Scottie’s numbers fell off a cliff the year after the Last Dance. He went to Houston (which I have no memory of) and then to Portland for the rest of his career but never averaged even 15 points/game again. Was he just broken down by then?
Simple explanation, but just take a look at his shots per game. 16.0 in 98, fell to 12.1 in 99, then 10.5 in 00, 9.3 in 01. His points per shot was nearly identical those 4 years: 1.19, 1.20, 1.19, 1.22.
 

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Apologize for the diversion, but can any of you who know the game better explain to me why Scottie’s numbers fell off a cliff the year after the Last Dance. He went to Houston (which I have no memory of) and then to Portland for the rest of his career but never averaged even 15 points/game again. Was he just broken down by then?
Same plight as Larry and Robinson. Back injuries sapped his athleticism. Still was good but wasn’t his explosive self as much. Last AS appearance was age 31 season.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Simple explanation, but just take a look at his shots per game. 16.0 in 98, fell to 12.1 in 99, then 10.5 in 00, 9.3 in 01. His points per shot was nearly identical those 4 years: 1.19, 1.20, 1.19, 1.22.
That makes sense. But leads to the question of why he took less shots after he was done playing with MJ. You would think he’d finally be trying to prove he was the man.
 

BaseballJones

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Pippen in 97-98 with Chi: 37.5 min, 16.0 fga, 19.1 pts, 5.2 reb, 5.8 ast, 1.8 stl
Pippen in 98-99 with Hou: 40.2 min, 12.1 fga, 14.5 pts, 6.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 2.0 stl

Pippen was absolutely terrific with Houston. He just didn't shoot as much is all.

That team, by the way, had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Pippen. Those three took the most shots on the team. $100 Monopoly to anyone who can name (not by looking it up) the guy who took the fourth most shots per game on that team.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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That makes sense. But leads to the question of why he took less shots after he was done playing with MJ. You would think he’d finally be trying to prove he was the man.
He was second on the team in FGA behind Olajuwon and pretty much neck and neck with Barkley. Even Dream only got 14/gm. When there's a third guy it's hard to get yours.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Pippen in 97-98 with Chi: 37.5 min, 16.0 fga, 19.1 pts, 5.2 reb, 5.8 ast, 1.8 stl
Pippen in 98-99 with Hou: 40.2 min, 12.1 fga, 14.5 pts, 6.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 2.0 stl

Pippen was absolutely terrific with Houston. He just didn't shoot as much is all.

That team, by the way, had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Pippen. Those three took the most shots on the team. $100 Monopoly to anyone who can name (not by looking it up) the guy who took the fourth most shots per game on that team.
Othella
 

tims4wins

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Pippen in 97-98 with Chi: 37.5 min, 16.0 fga, 19.1 pts, 5.2 reb, 5.8 ast, 1.8 stl
Pippen in 98-99 with Hou: 40.2 min, 12.1 fga, 14.5 pts, 6.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 2.0 stl

Pippen was absolutely terrific with Houston. He just didn't shoot as much is all.

That team, by the way, had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Pippen. Those three took the most shots on the team. $100 Monopoly to anyone who can name (not by looking it up) the guy who took the fourth most shots per game on that team.
Yep. Then in Portland:
Rasheed
Stoudamire
Steve Smith
Sabonis
Bonzi
Detlef

Another super talented team.

Edit: funny to see who had the 4th and 5th most shots per game on that 99 Houston team!
 

Merkle's Boner

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Krause graded Pippen to the Rockets during the off-season for Roy Rogers and a second rounder who became the immortal Jake Voskuhl. Wow.
 

reggiecleveland

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I absolutely get Pippen being upset. Twice they show stops to win playoff games where he makes all world defensive plays, and it isn't mentioned. He had maybe the best trash talk line of all time, "the mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday" and it doesn't get mentioned? They have time for the 30th retelling of Reggie Miller's rookie preseason game, but not Scotties epic line?
Not one of the extended dives on a Pippen moment was positive. The defining moment of the Knicks / bills rivalry is Pippen dunking on Ewing. Maybe spend more than 3 seconds on that.

I absolutely do not by Jordan did not have control over this. He touches on the gambling enough, and in the first half to seem like an actual third party Doc, but concludes with string of comments shrugging it off.

This is a Jordan approved 10 part hand job in response to LBJ getting some GOAT buzz. It was entertaining, and interesting, but exactly what I expected.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Pippen in 97-98 with Chi: 37.5 min, 16.0 fga, 19.1 pts, 5.2 reb, 5.8 ast, 1.8 stl
Pippen in 98-99 with Hou: 40.2 min, 12.1 fga, 14.5 pts, 6.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 2.0 stl

Pippen was absolutely terrific with Houston. He just didn't shoot as much is all.

That team, by the way, had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Pippen. Those three took the most shots on the team. $100 Monopoly to anyone who can name (not by looking it up) the guy who took the fourth most shots per game on that team.
Young Mobley?