The Last Dance

Seels

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How's there not a thread on this? Doc on 1998 Bulls airing, starting tonight.
 

Seels

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This is living up to the hype....but I'd be lying if it didn't just make me want a 10 parter on the Pats like tomorrow.
 

McBride11

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Remember when we had a president who wasn’t a giant asshole?
Can''t disagree but we try to avoid politics outside of V&N...

Kerr is like Paul Rudd - dude doesn't age.

I had no idea this Jerry Krause guy was so bad.

And I wish Stern had kept that stache from 84
 

jcd0805

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I went to a finals game in Chicago in 1993-that intro was one of my favorite memories ever, absolutely electric and I wasn’t even a huge b-ball or Bulls fan. Micheal telling the GM they’d have to lower the rim for him was awesome, absolutely loving this.
 

canderson

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I had forgotten Pippen was so underpaid.

Where does Pippen rank in nba history? Is he top 75? He was a very good player but absolutely benefited from playing next to the GOAT.
 
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Preacher

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Can''t disagree but we try to avoid politics outside of V&N...

Kerr is like Paul Rudd - dude doesn't age.

I had no idea this Jerry Krause guy was so bad.

And I wish Stern had kept that stache from 84
Sorry. My fault.

I never realized that Scottie Pippen was so underpaid. He was so good.
 

McBride11

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Sorry. My fault.

I never realized that Scottie Pippen was so underpaid. He was so good.
Same page, just don't wanna muddy the waters

Right. I just texted my friend the same. Shocking his contract. I was I think frosh high school, so the Globe only offered so much.
 

Ale Xander

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I had forgotten Pippen was so underpaid.

Where does Pippen rank in nba history? Is he top 125? He was a very good player but absolutely benefited from playing next to the GOAT.
That s**t grinds my hears. 2nd best player in the world getting paid like #122. His agent should have been drawn and quartered.
 

djbayko

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I had forgotten Pippen was so underpaid.

Where does Pippen rank in nba history? Is he top 125? He was a very good player but absolutely benefited from playing next to the GOAT.
Do you mean his greatness as a player? More like top 30 all time. Like Jordan, his defense was special.
 

Hoya81

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I had forgotten Pippen was so underpaid.

Where does Pippen rank in nba history? Is he top 75? He was a very good player but absolutely benefited from playing next to the GOAT.
He made the top 50 all time team in ‘96 as an active player, with a lot of ‘50s-‘60s players on it. I’d keep him on it.
 

Devizier

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I had forgotten Pippen was so underpaid.

Where does Pippen rank in nba history? Is he top 75? He was a very good player but absolutely benefited from playing next to the GOAT.
Top fifty, easily. His two best seasons were the Jordan-less ones.
 

BigSoxFan

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How the hell did Pippen not make all-star game in 1991? 18/7/6 with elite defense.
 

canderson

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Top fifty, easily. His two best seasons were the Jordan-less ones.
I originally posted 125 cause I’m an idiot and then remembered how good he was those seasons.

It’s so hard to judge cause Rodman also changed part of the game at the same time. The league was not too strong during the Bulls reign but those teams were awe-inspiring in top 3 talent.
 

Greg29fan

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Do you mean his greatness as a player? More like top 30 all time. Like Jordan, his defense was special.
He's 24th all-time in VORP, 45th in overall win shares, and 20th in defensive win shares, so I think somewhere in that 25-35 range is on the mark.
 

slamminsammya

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Pippen definitely sacrificed in that partnership. As someone mentioned upthread just look at his 1.75 seasons without MJ. Even with his numbers as they are, he is easily top 50 in my opinion, probably higher.
 

BaseballJones

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Well Pippen said in that documentary that he knew he was underpaid. Reinsdorf even told him not to sign it. But Pippen himself said that he signed it to give him and his family financial security. It was, after all, $18 million guaranteed, back in what, the late 80s, early 90s? So he knew what he was doing.

Was he underpaid? Massively. Did he go into it with eyes wide open? Clearly yes. Did he have to sign it? Not at all. Was it his choice, even against the advice of the Bulls' ownership? Yes.

Hard to put this anywhere else but on Pippen, from what I watched last night.
 

MJM2344

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Those 2 hours flew by last night. I was ready to watch all 10, wish we didn't have to wait a whole week for the next 2.
 

CantKeepmedown

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Yeah, Pippen ended up making like $110M in his career (Portland paid him big $$ for his last two years there, yikes!). But he still probably lost out on what? $30-40M? I'd have to go back and check out the salaries in the league at that point. But like others said, he did it on his own, even with his owner cautioning him.

What a career Pippen had. Good HS player, but not good enough to get any scholarships. Goes to Central Arkansas where starts off as a student manager. Eventually, they find a scholarship for him. Then he proceeds to grow like 8 inches over the next few years. Goes on to have an amazing NBA career where he's one of the 50 best players ever. Crazy.
 

Ale Xander

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Pippen was 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA during those years. He was good but he was not as good as, to name a few other candidates for #2, Olajuwon, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Barkely.
Strongly disagree

Pippen was harmed for inclusion on the All-NBA teams by being on the same team as #1.
 

bankshot1

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Strongly disagree

Pippen was harmed for inclusion on the All-NBA teams by being on the same team as #1.
Then we strongly disagree.

No problem.

IMO there are several players during that time period, only some named, who were more worthy of being considered the 2nd best player in the NBA to Jordan.
 

loshjott

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It seems like it is not possible to watch last night's episodes legally in the US at this point, is that right? I need to set my DVR for the rest of the series.
 

Kliq

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I don't know if Pippen was the second best player in the NBA at any point of his career; you could argue maybe in the late 90s once Olajuwon, Robinson and Barkley got old. That being said, you could make the case he is a Top 20 player of All-Time pretty easily. Being the second banana on six championship teams is incredibly impressive, especially because those teams were not just champions, but completely dominant forces. The one full season they played without Michael, they were a very good team, winning 55 games and finishing second in the East during a very competitive period, and also nearly beating the Knicks in the playoffs. Hell, old Scottie almost got the 2000 Trail Blazers to the Finals.

Before Kawhi, and arguably even still, Pippen was the best perimeter defender in the history of the NBA. An ultra-versatile long athlete that could guard multiple players and just put them in a torture chamber. He was also an incredible athlete and driver on the offensive end, and an unselfish and very willing playmaker. Chuck Daly called him a "fill in the blanks" player, meaning that whatever you needed him to do, he could do it. Needed him to lock-down a hot scorer? Scottie was the best at that. Need him to bang the boards and get some rebounds? Scottie would get up and snatch those rebounds. Need him to get you a bucket late? Scottie could explode to the rim and score. Need him to facilitate? Scottie was unselfish and had no problem passing first. He was the perfect compliment to Jordan and at some point, being the greatest second banana for six championship seasons supersedes being the the best player on a title team.

I listened to the Lowe Post with Jackie Mac talking about Jordan. One thing that Zach said about Pippen was that Jordan is always quick to say that he couldn't have won all those championships and become MICHAEL JORDAN if it wasn't for Pippen, and that Jordan isn't the kind of magnanimous guy that would just say that because they were teammates, he would only give that kind of credit if he really believed it was true.
 

johnmd20

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I don't know if Pippen was the second best player in the NBA at any point of his career; you could argue maybe in the late 90s once Olajuwon, Robinson and Barkley got old. That being said, you could make the case he is a Top 20 player of All-Time pretty easily. Being the second banana on six championship teams is incredibly impressive, especially because those teams were not just champions, but completely dominant forces. The one full season they played without Michael, they were a very good team, winning 55 games and finishing second in the East during a very competitive period, and also nearly beating the Knicks in the playoffs. Hell, old Scottie almost got the 2000 Trail Blazers to the Finals.

Before Kawhi, and arguably even still, Pippen was the best perimeter defender in the history of the NBA. An ultra-versatile long athlete that could guard multiple players and just put them in a torture chamber. He was also an incredible athlete and driver on the offensive end, and an unselfish and very willing playmaker. Chuck Daly called him a "fill in the blanks" player, meaning that whatever you needed him to do, he could do it. Needed him to lock-down a hot scorer? Scottie was the best at that. Need him to bang the boards and get some rebounds? Scottie would get up and snatch those rebounds. Need him to get you a bucket late? Scottie could explode to the rim and score. Need him to facilitate? Scottie was unselfish and had no problem passing first. He was the perfect compliment to Jordan and at some point, being the greatest second banana for six championship seasons supersedes being the the best player on a title team.

I listened to the Lowe Post with Jackie Mac talking about Jordan. One thing that Zach said about Pippen was that Jordan is always quick to say that he couldn't have won all those championships and become MICHAEL JORDAN if it wasn't for Pippen, and that Jordan isn't the kind of magnanimous guy that would just say that because they were teammates, he would only give that kind of credit if he really believed it was true.
If you're top 20 of all time, you must, by virtue of that, have been a top 2 player in the NBA while playing. It's hard to judge him perfectly because of Jordan, but Pippen was damn good. Of that there is no doubt. But he isn't a top 20 player of all time, in my opinion.
 

Kliq

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If you're top 20 of all time, you must, by virtue of that, have been a top 2 player in the NBA while playing. It's hard to judge him perfectly because of Jordan, but Pippen was damn good. Of that there is no doubt. But he isn't a top 20 player of all time, in my opinion.
Why would that be the case?
 

Cellar-Door

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This doc really wants to paint Krause as the villian (even though he was probably right that they should look for the next window, it's what we always praise Bellichick for get guys out too early rather than too late)
 

Kliq

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This doc really wants to paint Krause as the villian (even though he was probably right that they should look for the next window, it's what we always praise Bellichick for get guys out too early rather than too late)
I haven't seen the documentary yet, but Krause to me always got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure on him wanting to blow up the Bulls after the 98 season, but the guy was a damn good general manager. People chalk up his success as just being fortunate enough to have Jordan, but plenty of generational talents have had their championship parades canceled by being saddled with terrible supporting casts. Drafting Scottie Pippen is one of the greatest draft steals in NBA history, and he was able to consistently to get capable role players and accomplished veterans to fill out the roster. Again, having MJ makes it easier to lure those players over, but we have seen plenty of situations were just having a star player isn't enough. He also deserves credit for bringing in Phil Jackson as the head coach, who at the time was viewed as an outcast and an unconventional thinker who could never be a head coach in the NBA.

When you think about the great NBA dynasties, the figures who ran those teams, Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Greg Popovich, are all seen as just brilliant basketball minds; the smartest men to ever work in basketball, even while they all benefited from transcendent basketball talents leading their teams. . Krause is a fat loser who rode Jordan's coattails to six championships.

Jordan relentlessly bullied Krause and always made him the villain, in a way that would be very uncomfortable if it happened in 2020. Jordan always held a grudge against Krause for trading away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. I've read a few Jordan books, and one thing is clear (as Charlotte Hornet fans now know) is that Jordan has no idea how to run a good basketball team. When he was with the Bulls he basically just wanted them to draft Carolina guys.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The doc is very clear about Krause's intentions after 1998 and blowing up the team with only Jordan left standing (who wanted no part of it). That wasn't really a revelation, it's been known for quite long. It's also very clear from accounts given by people outside the organization that Krause really deserved no sympathy for his reputation - as one put it "Jerry lived his life as the same fat, poor kid he was growing up; he was constantly trying to get credit or slapped on the back" (not an exact quote); and he pulled petty shit like the incident with his daughter's wedding and his infamous "players and coaches don't win championships, organizations do", which he tried to weasel out of by playing semantics. That he hired Jackson as an assistant coach and won titles with that roster doesn't elevate him to Auerbach or Popovich status - no one is mentioning Bob Myers with those guys either; and Jordan's treatment of him is no worse that LBJ's antics on pretty much every team he's been on.
 

pjheff

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IMO there are several players during that time period, only some named, who were more worthy of being considered the 2nd best player in the NBA to Jordan.
Not the same era, obviously, but how do people here compare Pippen to McHale on these top whatever lists? I’ve always felt that Pippen was a bit overrated due to overexposure as part of the Jordan Bulls and the questionable assumption that Jordan’s beta could have been someone else’s alpha.