The Incredible Hülk Returns, 2023 F1 Season

SocrManiac

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At least they gave him some penalty points but man ruin Oscars chance to get points and just take off clear of everyone is quite hard to find the right penalty for a top car.
Nearly won him the championship when he shunted Max off at Silverstone and still took P1. That’s the one mitigating factor in F1’s utter disaster in the last race that made the result palatable for me.
 

Silverdude2167

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Nearly won him the championship when he shunted Max off at Silverstone and still took P1. That’s the one mitigating factor in F1’s utter disaster in the last race that made the result palatable for me.
I'm happy someone else said this.

I always chuckle when people complain about Max winning that championship after Silverstone.

If Max isn't knocked out of that race, he wins finishing 2nd...
 

kfoss99

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Should be an interesting race, tomorrow. A Haas on the third row and neither Red Bull made it to Q3.
 

cgori

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Should be an interesting race, tomorrow. A Haas on the third row and neither Red Bull made it to Q3.
The Haas has good 1-lap pace but chews through tires, probably made worse by Singapore/the heat. I think both Red Bulls finish top-10 (but I don't think podium, too hard to pass), and the two Haas P13/14, I suspect Tsunoda and Albon beat them as well.

It's Singapore, we're also almost certain to have multiple safety cars - if those are timed well for them, Red Bull could snag a podium, but that's completely unpredictable.
 

tmracht

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Pleasantly surprised this is on in my hotel room in Hong Kong. I'm totally not dreaming of flying to Suzuka on my off weekend next week before I head to Bangkok.

Caught quali highlights, didn't realize from the comments it was RB not making it on merit and not something like Lance Red keeping them out.

11th to 1st is going to be heroic if he can pull it off but Yas Marina is not playing to the strengths of that RB.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Why Red Bull couldn't get it done yesterday:

Why does this track put the Red Bull RB19 into such a difficult part of its set-up window? There are some clues. On most other tracks this car can run a lower rear ride height than others without generating the bouncing phenomenon. That’s probably a function of its highly sophisticated high-roofed underfloor and its long travel rear suspension.

But at some tracks, there is a different limitation – that of grounding out the legality plank which defines the legal minimum ride height. Those other cars which cannot run as low as the Red Bull without triggering bouncing (ie all of them) don’t need to be concerned about grounding the plank so much that it wears away to make the car illegally low. Because they can’t run that low anyway. But Red Bull can. So at Spa and here in Singapore that becomes an issue of concern.

Red Bull has had to run the car much higher than usual to keep the car legal here – and unlike many of its rivals, its aerodynamics have not been optimised around such a ride height.

At Spa the grounding problem is created by the combination of Eau Rouge’s very high speed and the vertical load of the compression. Hence why Verstappen and Perez spent the whole race there backing off before the compression, where everyone else was flat. Hence Verstappen’s coded instruction from his engineer GP almost every lap as he rounded La Source to ‘use your head’. Around Spa Red Bull did not surrender the downforce which delivers the car’s fantastic performance. Rather than raising the ride height out of its natural window, they instead compromised by getting the drivers to manage the problem at the only part of the track where it manifested – by backing off. That’s why the two drivers in the fastest car in the field were the only ones not taking Eau Rouge flat.

But with the bumps of Singapore, such a solution wasn’t available. We can go to Alfa Romeo’s Valtteri Bottas for a further clue. Asked to explain why the Alfa qualified so badly, he replied, “I shouldn’t go too much into details but we basically saw from yesterday that with the set-up, ride heights, stiffness we had, we would probably be illegal after the race. So we had to make compromises that cost us downforce”. Alfa raised the rear ride height, in other words. Just as Red Bull had done already.

But there were further complicating factors for the Red Bull. Part of the RB19’s usual strength is its relatively soft, long-travel rear suspension. It’s this which plays its part in allowing the underfloor aero to work so effectively in providing big, consistent downforce throughout the speed range and various angles of roll, making it much less peaky in its downforce delivery than other cars.

After sim testing Red Bull came here with an even softer suspension than usual (soft by the super-stiff standards of ground effect cars). But on getting out on track it was clear that the resurfaced parts of the track had removed the bumps and made the grip level far higher than simulated – way too high for the soft suspension, and so the car was grounding out from the combination of high grip and high roll. But other parts of the track were still super-bumpy, preventing a reduction in ride height.


Furthermore, the increased movement from the soft suspension was probably disturbing the underfloor aerodynamics, which would make the car inconsistent and unpredictable. That was Friday. In the low grip of FP1 Verstappen was third quickest, just 0.1s off the Ferraris. As the grip ramped up for FP2 the problem became worse. The more the grip increased, the worse the balance became – and the more the car bottomed out even with its relatively big rear ride height. In FP2 Verstappen was only eighth fastest, 0.7s off the Ferraris. Both he and seventh-fastest Perez were complaining of a dire lack of rear grip.

Into Saturday, the car was run with stiffer suspension in an effort to tame the wildly fluctuating underbody aero balance and the potential plank wear problem. This just moved the problem around. It became more predictable but its deficit of rear grip was if anything even worse. Verstappen managed to coax fourth-fastest time from it, just over 0.3s off the Ferraris. But for Perez that balance was awful and he was almost 0.8s adrift.

But that was still good enough to have both cars in the FP3 top 10. If they’d just left it there, they may well have repeated that in qualifying. But this is Red Bull. Ambition pushes it on – and further changes were made. Changes which just made the car worse. “The car was massively bottoming out in the big braking zones,” recalled Verstappen. “Every time I wanted to brake late my front wheels were becoming unloaded – and on a street circuit that is something which is very crucial – to be confident on the brakes and attack the corners, so… I couldn’t do that and in the low-speed corners where I think we have been struggling already the whole weekend, I just had no rear support – so I kept on having mini-slides or in my final lap a big one at Turn 3. When it’s like that there is no lap time.”

Hence P11 on the timesheets.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-why-red-bulls-f1-car-is-suddenly-undriveable/
 

mikeot

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Great explainer, Nick. Helluva of a race today, with Sainz and Norris acting like the teammates they once were keeping the Benzes at bay. I like the street races, looking forward to Vegas in November. Still looks to me like Max will clinch in Qatar early in October.
 

Leon Trotsky

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Finally an interesting race. They should run the rest of the season on super bumpy tracks to neutralize Red Bull. That was a cool article explaining why they are so good usually and not so good in Singapore.
 

kfoss99

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Are there enough races left for McLaren to get third in the Constructors' Championship?
 

Silverdude2167

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Am I going to be a conspiracy theorist about something that reallllly does not matter? Totally I am.

Verstappen's lap time for the sprint is taken off the board for "track limits", but they never show a replay that shows it, unlike every other track limit violation.

They just wanted more drama and to keep him off the front row.
 

tmracht

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You can see on f1tv and it shows him running like 1mm wide. Barely but technically correct. Piastri and Norris lockout though. Wow McLaren is such an impressive mid season improvement. Guess the Merc engine is viable after all.
 

kfoss99

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McLaren has really come on after the summer break.

Perez didn't wreck, but had no pace and kept getting 5-second penalties.

Albon had the lead at one point, but still finished out of the points.

For a while, Max has been the best driver in the best car. Piastri is driving like the best driver, right now.
 

tmracht

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For a while, Max has been the best driver in the best car. Piastri is driving like the best driver, right now.
He's driving like a madman but it's really close between him Lando and Max. Lando not withstanding his I'm so stupid is really right in the mix. But I do wonder how much of this is just Max being able to just drive to a number blurring things. Great to see some actual competition.

The real impressive part was 1.8s pitstops in that heat. GJ McLaren team.
 

SocrManiac

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I think the greater point still stands. A lot of drivers were in rough shape. Physical exertion is part of sport, but when you have people zooming around at 200 mph without their full faculties bad things can happen.
 

Silverdude2167

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That's a bit of an overreaction. Apparently he had flu-like symptoms earlier in the week and was severely dehydrated.
Stroll said he was blacking out in the corners, Gasley (I believe) said he vomited in his helmet on lap 15, Alonso asked for water to be thrown on him during the pitstop.

Then you have this image from the cooldown room. The race was dangerously hot and they are lucky no driver fainted in their car.
 

tmracht

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Well that was some fun qualifying top 6 should make it an interesting few laps.
 

kfoss99

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McLaren passed Aston Martin in the Constructors' Championship. I think it's too little, too late for them to catch Mercedes or Ferrari.

It didn't help that Piastri was a DNF, yesterday. It will be fun if McLaren is this good next season.

F1 and Netflix must have been happy there was a semblance of Hamilton/Verstappen drama to finish the race.

Oh, I think it'd be so much fun if a race was run with an inverted starting grid. Maybe there would be a major crash going into turn one. And you'd have to have a mechanism to prevent sandbagging. With DRS it's not impossible Max could go last to first.
 
Oh, I think it'd be so much fun if a race was run with an inverted starting grid. Maybe there would be a major crash going into turn one. And you'd have to have a mechanism to prevent sandbagging. With DRS it's not impossible Max could go last to first.
Hold qualifying as normal on Friday, then have a sprint race on Saturday in which everyone starts in reverse order of the points they've accumulated in the last 12 months. Then on Sunday, calculate the starting positions for the main race by a combination of Friday qualifying + places gained relative to your starting position on Saturday. How does that sound?
 

tmracht

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I just don't love the sprint format as is, I think Max and others stated the obvious, but it kind of kills most of the intrigue from Sunday. We knew Ferrari had no chance to win over full length with their tires shredding (Ferrari gonna Ferrari tries the brilliant 1-stop with Charles then gets him a DSQ notwithstanding). I do think if you have a failure rate of 50% that sampling should increase, but that's neither here nor there.

Lewis was in a really good spot to catch Checo for P2, but his DSQ makes that quite difficult.

I do think McLaren still could still catch Ferrari, but that's a remote chance, 80 points off with 4 races and a sprint in Brazil means there's still quite a few points available but requires a at least one Ferrari DNF and a couple McLaren 2/3s to work.
 

tmracht

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Oh Checo, that was not a way to secure your seat or second place. Ricciardo was spectacular in that shitbox all weekend, and Lando was amazing on Sunday (not so much Saturday).

Mercedes seems like they are inching closer but it's hard to say how close they are to RB when both were obviously doing a bit of tire management and not showing full potential (see Lewis just hammering a fastest lap at the end on old Mediums). But Lewis is once again back in place for P2 with Checo taking himself out of the GP.
 

kfoss99

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Oh Checo, that was not a way to secure your seat or second place. Ricciardo was spectacular in that shitbox all weekend, and Lando was amazing on Sunday (not so much Saturday).

Mercedes seems like they are inching closer but it's hard to say how close they are to RB when both were obviously doing a bit of tire management and not showing full potential (see Lewis just hammering a fastest lap at the end on old Mediums). But Lewis is once again back in place for P2 with Checo taking himself out of the GP.
Perez was so reckless. Like, you have DRS, just get through turn 1 safeley. You'll get the pass in. Races aren't NASCAR long, but they're long enough to make a few passes...see Norris.

Also, points for Albon in the Williams, again!
.
 

tmracht

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Perez was so reckless. Like, you have DRS, just get through turn 1 safeley. You'll get the pass in. Races aren't NASCAR long, but they're long enough to make a few passes...see Norris.

Also, points for Albon in the Williams, again!
.
Way off topic, but in F1 Manager 23 Albon single handedly carried me to P7 in the constructors. Logan Sargeant existed I guess.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I decided to cancel my trip to Vegas. I'll go in a future year, but it looked like too much of a shitshow.

I was right in my thought to wait for last minute to buy tickets -- they are dropping fast. I'm glad I didn't buy them in advance. I'll probably try again next year, when they have ironed out the bugs and maybe the other constructors will get a little closer and make it more competitive.
 

tmracht

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I too am glad I held off, original prices you could have spent a weekend in Monaco and attended the GP. Now its a lot of disinformation on the tickets and what you get. Not great.
 

tmracht

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Alonso just rope a doped Perez. He let Perez drain everything but was harvesting during the previous laps. He is so so so so good. Perez really is not great.
 

tmracht

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Max has accumulated enough points to have won the Constructor title on his own.
After the race the part where GP was congratulating him on the Ascari record and then surprised him with the song Max and his dad listened to after kart races was super humanizing. That little karaoke session would make a great backstory for a positive DTS episode.

I hope people soften on Max the backlash, but he makes a perfect villain. He is dominating, he's so talented, works so hard AND has that incredible machine at his disposal. It's a disgusting combo.

Compare that to Lewis sounding defeated, or Leclercs why am I always so unlucky comment, RB is stifling everyone.
 

cgori

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I decided to cancel my trip to Vegas. I'll go in a future year, but it looked like too much of a shitshow.

I was right in my thought to wait for last minute to buy tickets -- they are dropping fast. I'm glad I didn't buy them in advance. I'll probably try again next year, when they have ironed out the bugs and maybe the other constructors will get a little closer and make it more competitive.
https://jalopnik.com/formula-1-didnt-realize-las-vegas-would-be-cold-in-nove-1851011607

Oops.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Silverdude2167

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I am so excited for this race. Cold weather, new track, etc. It has all the makings of a complete trainwreck and I could not be more excited.

Now that I have said that, Max will win by 2 minutes and there will be no safety cars.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Seems really inflexible that Sainz has to take a ten place penalty for an event that is the fault of the organizers, but that’s racing I guess.

No fun for spectators. It’s just P1 and P2 but people paid a lot of money for the inaugural event and they got 9 minutes of P1 and P2 was in the middle of the night.

I know keeping the strip open during the day was a condition of hosting in Nevada, but not so sure it is wise.

Edit — at 1:30, they closed the spectator areas and sent everyone home so FP2 was held without spectators.
 
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kfoss99

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Is qualifying tonight?

This whole event seems so ill advised. There's few street courses I like and this one looks bad. We lost the French or German Gran Prix for this?

But, you gotta grab that cash when it's there for the grabbing.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Qualifying is midnight tonight out in Vegas.
I read a rumor that everything has to get pushed back because P3 has to be 18 hours after the end of P2. Not sure if true. I have a friend who is there and he is pretty frustrated with communication and logistics.