The future at 3rd

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E5 Yaz

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So, Sox make offer ... Sandoval and agent call Giants to see whether they'll match or come close enough to keep him ... then ...
 

BornToRun

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That piece right there has me convinced. I've been warming up to the idea of Sandoval in Boston pretty recently and now I honestly want BC to get something done. If it takes a 20m AAV or a 6th year, I'd be able to live with it.
 

MakMan44

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https://twitter.com/nickcafardo/status/535122397163429888
 
Offers have been made to both Jon Lester and Pablo Sandoval by Red Sox according to a major league source.
 

E5 Yaz

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BornToRun said:
That piece right there has me convinced. I've been warming up to the idea of Sandoval in Boston pretty recently and now I honestly want BC to get something done. If it takes a 20m AAV or a 6th year, I'd be able to live with it.
 
So, you want to make Sandoval the highest paid player on the team because he's a nice guy? Hell, Ortiz is a great teammate, too. Should they increase his deal over Sandoval's?
 
Not to mention, Sandoval doesn't even fill the position of greatest -- or even great -- need on the roster
 

BornToRun

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E5 Yaz said:
 
So, you want to make Sandoval the highest paid player on the team because he's a nice guy? Hell, Ortiz is a great teammate, too. Should they increase his deal over Sandoval's?
 
Not to mention, Sandoval doesn't even fill the position of greatest -- or even great -- need on the roster
He does fill a pretty serious need though. We've had 3rd base problems for the past couple of seasons and there's a decent amount of doubt as to whether we can fill that need internally. I don't want to blow the Giants' offer out of the water but if BC has to go over 5/90 by a bit, I'm okay with that. He's 28 right now so it isn't like we're locking him up through his mid to late 30's and while his weight could present a problem, I feel like Hanley comes with question marks of his own. The clubhouse thing is a part of my coming around, but it isn't the only factor.
 

Drek717

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E5 Yaz said:
 
So, you want to make Sandoval the highest paid player on the team because he's a nice guy? Hell, Ortiz is a great teammate, too. Should they increase his deal over Sandoval's?
 
Not to mention, Sandoval doesn't even fill the position of greatest -- or even great -- need on the roster
What is the criteria for that last statement?  Because if we're talking about how long we've been looking for a solution to a particular position 3B has been a problem for this club since Adrian Beltre left town so the FO could trade two quality prospects for the chance to move Youk up the defensive spectrum on the wrong side of 30, all to satisfy their Adrian Gonzalez fetish.
 
Middlebrooks is looking like a bust.  Cecchini's defense is dubious, if the bat is what it has the potential to be he'd play just fine in LF, if nothing else in a platoon with Brentz, Craig, etc..  The FO clearly thinks Bogaerts can stick at SS.  So all that combined, how is 3B not the biggest single position of need?  The unusually well stocked 3B market this year makes now the time to strike and take the need off the table long term.
 

E5 Yaz

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Drek717 said:
What is the criteria for that last statement?  Because if we're talking about how long we've been looking for a solution to a particular position 3B has been a problem for this club since Adrian Beltre left town so the FO could trade two quality prospects for the chance to move Youk up the defensive spectrum on the wrong side of 30, all to satisfy their Adrian Gonzalez fetish.
 
The biggest need is the starting rotation. They won the 2013 World Series by using Middlebrooks and Bogaerts at third base
 

Stan Papi Was Framed

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E5 Yaz said:
 
The biggest need is the starting rotation. They won the 2013 World Series by using Middlebrooks and Bogaerts at third base
it shouldn't be an either-or, though.  I think 3B and 2 starting pitchers are both big needs.  I also think it's possible they can address all 3 needs even if signing Sandoval is part of the plan
 

Pozo the Clown

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E5 Yaz said:
 
The biggest need is the starting rotation.
 
This team has multiple needs.  The starting rotation is clearly at the forefront of such needs.  Thankfully, they've got plenty of money and prospects with which to address those needs.  A $20M per third sacker isn't going to stop them from significantly bolstering the starting staff.  The choice between SP and 3rd isn't mutually exclusive.  Let's see how this all plays out.
 

E5 Yaz

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Stan Papi Was Framed said:
it shouldn't be an either-or, though.  I think 3B and 2 starting pitchers are both big needs.  I also think it's possible they can address all 3 needs even if signing Sandoval is part of the plan
 
 
Pozo the Clown said:
 
This team has multiple needs.  The starting rotation is clearly at the forefront of such needs.  Thankfully, they've got plenty of money and prospects with which to address those needs.  A $20M per third sacker isn't going to stop them from significantly bolstering the starting staff.  The choice between SP and 3rd isn't mutually exclusive.  Let's see how this all plays out.
 
Follow this part of the discussion in context. 
 
I said that third base is not the primary need of the team, not that they shouldn't address it. But that to make that kind of outlay for a position that is not the primary need does not seem the wisest approach to budget construction.
 

MakMan44

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I think the context applies to internal reports on Cecchini. If they're down on his ability to handle a MLB job, then 3rd jumps up to a more immediate position of need because there's not much else in the pipeline. 
 

grimshaw

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Does anyone remember so many leaks about a single player the Sox have chased after as a FA?  They usually stay very mum and then do something no one expects.  There are tweets everywhere.  They can't all be from the same source, right?
 

DourDoerr

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joe dokes said:
 
They have a hole at 3b now, that they probably dont think Middlebrooks will ever fill, or that Cecchini can fill this year.   Someone has to play third. If Sandoval were heading into his age 30 season, I'd have a lot more concerns. Every FA has warts. If he gives them 3 years of 110-120 OPS+ adn a year or 2 above 100, I'd call it success.  I'd also like to think that someone like Ortiz told him, "It will suck if you suck; but it will suck a whole lot more if you suck and people think its because you're out of shape."
 
Yes, they have a hole at third, but they have options in the minors in a year or two  I just don't think it makes sense to give a 5-6 year deal to someone when there's potentially a hole for a year.  Find a 1 year bridge then see where GC is at.  I'd agree that WMB looks lost right now and may never pan out, but it's really early to bail on him.  There's no requirement to start him in MLB.  The outfield should pick up the production from last year, so that should offset some below average production from third.  Of course, you wouldn't want to do that annually, but that's why you develop prospects.  If we had nothing in the minors, then it might be worth signing Sandoval.  But that's not the case.
 

E5 Yaz

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MakMan44 said:
I think the context applies to internal reports on Cecchini. If they're down on his ability to handle a MLB job, then 3rd jumps up to a more immediate position of need because there's not much else in the pipeline. 
 
I'm not sure it's so much position as left-handed with Sandoval. Even if they don't believe in WMB or Cecchini, it's not a player-contract combination that I can fully get behind. 
 

MakMan44

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E5 Yaz said:
 
I'm not sure it's so much position as left-handed with Sandoval. Even if they don't believe in WMB or Cecchini, it's not a player-contract combination that I can fully get behind. 
No, that's a fair point. I'm not a big fan of him at 6 years either. 
 

LeoCarrillo

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MakMan44 said:
I think the context applies to internal reports on Cecchini. If they're down on his ability to handle a MLB job, then 3rd jumps up to a more immediate position of need because there's not much else in the pipeline. 
 
Agreed. And relatedly he may be getting offers on people like Cecchini, or at least know that he's a favorite of Ruben Amaro, for example. That's just a hypothetical, obviously, so no point speculating into that rabbit hole. But the point being that BC has an idea of how his prospects are coveted by outside teams (to go with his own internal opinions, as Mak said) and if there's a disparity and a chance to sell high on Cecchini or Marrero, for example, then that may be factoring into his thinking. 
 

JohntheBaptist

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grimshaw said:
Does anyone remember so many leaks about a single player the Sox have chased after as a FA?  They usually stay very mum and then do something no one expects.  There are tweets everywhere.  They can't all be from the same source, right?
 
I'm not sure it means anything, but I've been thinking the same thing. We practically know his entire itinerary in Boston at this point.
 

DourDoerr

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Paying a premium for a player with warts - especially at long years - is inviting trouble.  Crawford had some red flags, but we signed him at large money/years and immediately regretted it.  Not that Sandoval is a player with Crawford's specific flaws, but he is a player with some red flags.  I think you save the big money/years for players who are more of a sure thing however you can get them via trades or free agency.
 
It's surprising given the success with the signings prior to the 2013 season that it seems we're abandoning that route already.
 

Pozo the Clown

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E5 Yaz said:
 
 
 
Follow this part of the discussion in context. 
 
I said that third base is not the primary need of the team, not that they shouldn't address it. But that to make that kind of outlay for a position that is not the primary need does not seem the wisest approach to budget construction.
 
I believe it's important to also note the large number of question marks the Sox have going into the '15 season and how the addition of a Sandoval can help to eliminate (to a large extent) 3rd base as a question mark.  As currently, constructed (and we all know that it will change), the starting rotation consists of essentially nothing but question marks.  The bullpen too has it's share of question marks.  Was Koji just gassed at the end of '04, or is it the beginning of the inevitable decline?  What about the woeful offense?  What can legitimately be expected from Vasquez from the offensive side of the ball?  What about Bogaerts?  Did anyone, anywhere foresee his struggles in '14?  What will he bring to the offensive table in '15?  What will Rusney bring?  Betts?  Sure, he looks like a potential stud...but...so did Xander after the '13 season.  Can they count on getting anything out of Craig or Victorino?  Will Pedroia and/or Napoli rebound?  Will Papi decline?  And if so, how precipitiously?  
 
Will you be satisfied with a repeat (or God forbid lesser version) of the '14 offense?  If the answer is no, than, other than 3rd base, where can you legitimately count on that improvement coming from?  Looking at the construction of the current roster/budget, it strikes me that an investment in a well-established 3rd basemen is the most prudent way of guaranteeing (as best as anything can be guaranteed in baseball or life) an offensive upgrade to the roster. 
 

soxhop411

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SAN FRANCISCO (KPIX 5) –The Giants need to start looking for a third baseman because Pablo Sandoval is likely not coming back to San Francisco.
After speaking with two sources, here’s what I’ve able to put together:
The Giants offered Pablo the same contract given to Hunter Pence, five years at $90 million.  Sandoval wanted that deal last Spring when Giants were justifiably suspect about Pablo’s physical condition. But when that offer came after the World Series, Sandoval countered by asking for a seven year deal.
Sandoval was in Boston yesterday where I am told there is a 90% chance that he will sign with the Red Sox.  The other 10% goes to the Torono a Blue Jays
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/11/19/pablo-sandoval-kung-fu-panda-will-not-return-to-san-francisco-giants-boston-red-sox-toronto-blue-jays-gameday/
 

glennhoffmania

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So I guess it's safe to assume they offered more than 5/90.  If it's not 5/91 I may be concerned.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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LeoCarrillo said:
Ben has the numbers, too. And I bet he was at dinner last night choking down the bone of a sixth year or a salary near $20M per. 
 
This is more about floor than ceiling. There's nothing better coming in the near-future in FA. Let's presume by the interest in Panda that BC sees no solution in-house. Fixing the 3B hole allows BC to proceed with trades for pitching with better knowledge of which assets become more expendable (Cecchini, Marrero, whatever's left of WMB). Right now, 3B is a flat tire on this team. If they overpay by a third fixing it, well, that's not ideal. But 1. young; 2. lefty; 3. spray chart suggests Monster oppo fit; 4. can go to 1B/DH in a worst-case; 5. good clubhouse guy. 
 
Is it nuts to be throwing around $20 million per to fix a flat tire and get back on the road? Yes, no, maybe. 
 
Lots of good stuff in there, and sort of touches on an issue that I've thought about with respect to FA but can't quite articulate.  One school of thought is that overpaying is always a mistake.  There are enough talented baseball players in the world that if demand exceeds supply in the FA market at a position (or, if talking about trades, your trading partner is not rational) you simply fill the position of need with a replacement level option and buy your wins elsewhere -- hopefully at a position where demand does not exceed supply.  While the Sox (and others on this board) have forgotten more about roster construction than I've ever known, this is sort of my baseline predisposition.
 
So, for example, I look at Russell Martin, who just signed for $82 million, and I think, even given their age difference, it's hard to imagine forecasting Panda to save/produce more runs than Martin over the next 5 years.  Which makes $100 million really hard to swallow.
 
But, on the other hand, there is both an elegance and efficiency to buying your runs or run prevention at a position that also happens to be a position of need.  If you go out and buy a 5 win center fielder when you already have a 2 win centerfielder at the position, you have to ask what you're going to do with the 2-win guy.  If you feel confident in your ability to get 2-wins out of him (by trading him, by moving him, by platooning him, etc.) then great.  But if you put him on the bench or in the minors, you've been less efficient than you should.  
 
So, maybe there is some justification in overpaying in order to buy your runs at a position where you get full value for them.  I dunno.  Problem is, if the Sox are going to overpay a FA, pitcher seems to be the spot.  I know that FA timing always doesn't work out like you want, so maybe they intend to do both.    
 
Edit:  I guess I should add that I don't think I'm necessarily disagreeing with the point that E5 has been making.  At least, maybe I'm not. Though I used the word "need" in my post, in part I'm trying to explore the question whether there's a difference between a position of "need" and a position where your FA dollars are used efficiently because of the delta between the runs you're buying and the runs you'd other wise have if you didn't buy them (or went with a cheaper option).  I recognize this may be the same exact thing, so I suppose I'm mostly just asking the question whether it is.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Everyone relax. Ownership can always blow past the luxury threshold for old times' sake before Papi retires.
 

Devizier

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My hopes are still firmly fixed on Headley, recognizing that his stint with the Yankees represents a best-case scenario for his performance going forward. If the Red Sox are going to head into the future with Bogaerts at shortstop, I would like a rangy third baseman to cover up for some of his deficiencies. I don't see any attainable alternatives that fulfill that role.
 

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Ugh. Are there examples of players who swung at so many balls that continued to be successful well into their 30's? I'm scared.
 
Panda is unique. He chases, but he doesn't strike out much either. Like Dustin Pedroia, ironically. 
 
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soxhop411 said:
 
 
glennhoffmania said:
So I guess it's safe to assume they offered more than 5/90.  If it's not 5/91 I may be concerned.
Well, they signed Martin to 5/82, here's hoping they can sing Pablo for 5/92
 
I don't mind the outlay this year and maybe even next, but I'm quite certain we can do better in 2017 and beyond than $18mil+ for a 30 yo Pablo.
 

Spacemans Bong

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grimshaw said:
WTF does 90% even mean?  Someone's shaken a magic 8 ball and 90/100 times it's shown Sandoval?
I'm guessing it means that he's likely to sign, but the Jays or someone else might come in with a late offer...whatever.

Anyway, O'Donnell is legit - one of the better local sports anchors around and he broke the Hunter Pence trade and at least one other deal (I can't remember which).
 

mloyko54

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Doing some background on this Reporter and he's pretty legit. I guess he broke or was the first one on the Hunter Pence to the Giants story a few years ago. 
 
The vibe that is out there now is that Pablo felt disrespected by the offer the Giants gave him in the Spring and the fact they took a "wait and see" approach with him regarding his season and conditioning. That's likely where the "respect" quote from his brother came from. 
 

Pozo the Clown

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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Devizier said:
My hopes are still firmly fixed on Headley . . . .
 
Yeah, me too.  But it sure does feel like that ship has sailed.  I get the feeling that part of the Panda urgency for the Sox was when the Yankees started negotiating with Headley.  Too bad we couldn't stick around to drive up the price, but if the Sox took that as an indication that he was as good as signed, that's not unreasonable.  
 
One thing to keep in mind, though.  I think every hot stove, we sort of get amnesia about how much bullshit and misinformation is out there.  We fall into the same traps over and over.  The bottom line to remember: Every word that a reporter utters is part of someone's negotiation.  Until a deal is done, it's all negotiation.
 

Pozo the Clown

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
Too bad we couldn't stick around to drive up the price, but if the Sox took that as an indication that he was as good as signed, that's not unreasonable. 
 
Headley's agents will surely point to Pablo's contract in their negotiations with the MFYs (or whomever).  The price tag on Headley may still be going up.
 

KillerBs

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Top 10 on % of swings on pitches out of strike zone in 2014: Pablo, Sal Perez, Chris Johnson, Marlon Byrd, Matt Adams. Adam Jones, Jose Abreu, Carlos Gomez, Justin Morneau, Aramis Ramirez. Not a bad list. Maybe lower walks, good offensive players, are the new market inefficiency?
 

67WasBest

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LeoCarrillo said:
Ben has the numbers, too. And I bet he was at dinner last night choking down the bone of a sixth year or a salary near $20M per. 
 
This is more about floor than ceiling. There's nothing better coming in the near-future in FA. Let's presume by the interest in Panda that BC sees no solution in-house. Fixing the 3B hole allows BC to proceed with trades for pitching with better knowledge of which assets become more expendable (Cecchini, Marrero, whatever's left of WMB). Right now, 3B is a flat tire on this team. If they overpay by a third fixing it, well, that's not ideal. But 1. young; 2. lefty; 3. spray chart suggests Monster oppo fit; 4. can go to 1B/DH in a worst-case; 5. good clubhouse guy. 
 
Is it nuts to be throwing around $20 million per to fix a flat tire and get back on the road? Yes, no, maybe. 
This is a most excellent review of where BC is at this point in time.  Perhaps there is an overpay on Sandoval, but if that allows him to include Cecchini in a deal that is an equal or greater underpay, then the overall impact to the roster is flat in terms of financials, but high in terms of on field value.
 
As an example, the Sandoval deal allows BC to package Cecchini and Webster in a deal with SD for Tyson Ross, and his $3.5M salary and #2 starter production.  Is Sandoval and Ross for three years worth $23, $27 and $30M per year?  That's a pretty solid yes projection.  By year 4, Devers is arriving, Papi is retired and Sandoval takes over as the jovial big guy DH that everyone loves, and the overpay begins.  But they've already banked the extra value of the Sandoval/Ross pair in years 1,2 and 3, plus whatever else they may recieve in trading additional surplus parts.  Makes it a solid deal when seen through that kind of a projection..
 

BlackJack

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I for one can't wait for "Papi, Pedey & The Panda" to start airing on NESN next spring.
 

foulkehampshire

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Not really. Pedroia only swings at 27% of pitches outside the strike zone (Panda is at 48%). The only player on the Red Sox close to that was AJP (49%), Cespedes 2nd at 41%.
 
I wonder if those metrics take Pedroia's diminutive stature in account. I swear he's always hacking at pitches over his head.
 
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