The future at 3rd

[MakMan44]

Lot of Pablo Sandoval in the Mookie thread, so I figured people would want a thread to discuss him.  
 
Or maybe this can just be a catch all 3rd base thread, so people can talk about Headley, Hanley or whatever potential FAs/Trade targets strikes their fancy. 

 

[moondog80]

I'd love Chase Headley on a bargain, but maybe he's played himself into something more by doing well in NY?

 

[OptimusPapi]

Headley has an Ops of 688 and hasn't shown any real power since 2012. I would love to have him on a one year deal maybe two but otherwise I would pass

 

[ctsoxfan5]

Headley has an Ops of 688 and hasn't shown any real power since 2012. I would love to have him on a one year deal maybe two but otherwise I would pass

 
He spent most of his career in San Diego, a tough place for hitters.  His career road OPS is .799.  His OPS with the Yankees this year has been .743 in 200+ PAs.  He has a career .347 OBP (.359 on the road, .367 with the Yankees this year).  He's also a very good defender.  His fWar over the past five years: 4.4, 2.3, 7.2, 3.6, 4.0.   He's about a 4 WAR player.  He's going to get more than a year or two, and he should.  

 

[OptimusPapi]

 
He spent most of his career in San Diego, a tough place for hitters.  His career road OPS is .799.  His OPS with the Yankees this year has been .743 in 200+ PAs.  He has a career .347 OBP (.359 on the road, .367 with the Yankees this year).  He's also a very good defender.  His fWar over the past five years: 4.4, 2.3, 7.2, 3.6, 4.0.   He's about a 4 WAR player.  He's going to get more than a year or two, and he should.  

Didn't take any of that in account. My only other concern is what to do with X if he needs to move to third. But Headley dosent cost a draft pick so I could get down with that. Would 4/60 get it done?

 

[LeoCarrillo]

Fat as he is, Sandoval made a more athletic play last night than I've ever seen from either X or WMB. 
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/43383428/v36538919/sflad-panda-sprawls-to-rob-greinke-of-extra-bases/?c_id=mlb 

 

[foulkehampshire]

Didn't take any of that in account. My only other concern is what to do with X if he needs to move to third. But Headley dosent cost a draft pick so I could get down with that. Would 4/60 get it done?

 
I'd be pretty upset if the Sox brought on Headley with that kind of financial commitment.
 
I don't like the way he's trending offensively, and I wouldn't be shocked if he was in for another sub-700 OPS season next year. He'd have the majority of his at-bats in Fenway as a LHH - and he's a pull hitter so it doesn't really mesh. Too much of his value is tied to defense; this team needs more consistent offense and I don't think Headley brings that. 
 
Doubts that he'll age well over the length of a multiyear contract.

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

Looking over the FA 3Bs, it's really between Hanley, Panda and Headley.  Aramis is too old and did all his damage vs. Ls this year.  Due to injuries and weight, I don't think Hanley & Panda will be outrageously expensive and I hope we sign one of the two (Headley is OK but this lineup needs an .800+ OPS which Hanley & Panda should bring).  I believe Panda is .800+ if you get him out of AT&T.  Hanley has been hurt this year and is still OPS'ing over .800.
 
Has Hanley said anything about not wanting to play 3B next year?  I know he wanted to stay at SS but he's been pretty bad defensively there this year (according to Dodgers fans and guys on the radio here in LA) and I imagine money will be the deciding factor.  

 

[OptimusPapi]

Hanley and Panda will be outrageously expensive, come with injury/conditioning concerns, and cost a draft pick. Better to go with Headly or find a one or two year stopgap until the Sox figure out what they have in Garrin and Marrero.

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

Hanley and Panda will be outrageously expensive, come with injury/conditioning concerns, and cost a draft pick. Better to go with Headly or find a one or two year stopgap until the Sox figure out what they have in Garrin and Marrero.

Our pick is protected.  Became official today.

 

[OptimusPapi]

I realize that but I don't think either is worth giving up a 2nd round pick.

 

[YTF]

I think this thread might already exist.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/85356-2015-to-do-list-3rd-base/

 

[ArgentinaSOXfan]

Panda would be a great addition but he will be so out of our price range. 

 

[MakMan44]

I think this thread might already exist.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/85356-2015-to-do-list-3rd-base/

That was split out after I created this thread. If a mod wants to move these posts or just feels like closing the thread, that's fine. 
 

I realize that but I don't think either is worth giving up a 2nd round pick.

I can understand not wanting to tie up the money long term in either Panda or Hanley (for various reasons) but it's incredibly likely that they provide more value to the franchise over the course of a deal than a 2nd round pick ever will. (I'm including the salary pool boost when I say this)
 
EDIT:

There's very little chance the Yankees offer Headley a QO.

They couldn't anyway, he was traded midseason. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

Cecchini homers

 

[Gash Prex]

Its too bad X didn't establish himself more at SS (and other rookies) as I think if the team would be more comfortable with Cecchini at 3rd next year if they had,  but I doubt they'll take another chance at 3rd.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Its too bad X didn't establish himself more at SS (and other rookies) as I think if the team would be more comfortable with Cecchini at 3rd next year if they had,  but I doubt they'll take another chance at 3rd.

Cecchini's D is still a work in progress. I'd be borderline shocked if that's the left side on Opening Day.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Cecchini's D is still a work in progress. I'd be borderline shocked if that's the left side on Opening Day.

I'd be borderline suicidal.

We figure to have enough young/unproven players in our lineup next year with Betts, Bogaerts, Vazquez, Castillo, and a couple starting pitchers. The last thing we need is more uncertainty from a historical perspective.

 

[foulkehampshire]

Cecchini has looked pretty good today. He's never going to be a gold glover but I think he's almost there.

 

[sackamano]

Why would anyone give Headley 4/60 when he won't even get a qualifying offer? Madness.

 

[Pilgrim]

Why would anyone give Headley 4/60 when he won't even get a qualifying offer? Madness.

he *can't* get one because he was traded in-season. Which is one reason teams might pay him that much.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Why would anyone give Headley 4/60 when he won't even get a qualifying offer? Madness.

Well, he might have gotten a QO if the Yankees could give him one and didn't have A-Rod coming back.

FAs coming off 7, 3.6 and 4 fWAR years make lots of money. This is especially true if there aren't a bunch of other players on the market at their spot. I just can't see getting a guy with a likely floor of 3 wins to sign a 2 year deal or to play for $10 million a year. Headley is a solid glove every day 3B who plugs along at better than replacement level each month and is not too far removed from a huge year. If he will sign for three win a year money, he really seems to me to be the steady kind of player the team could use to go along with some of the uncertainty.

 

[Rasputin]

If we just went with the best out of Holt, Middlebrooks, and Cecchini, it probably wouldn't be terrible.

 

[Pilgrim]

If we just went with the best out of Holt, Middlebrooks, and Cecchini, it probably wouldn't be terrible.

That's more like two guys, though. Middlebrooks is awful and we would riot if he was 2014 starting 3b.

Then there's Cecchini, who was below average offensively and defensively this year in AAA. Holt is a fine player who is probably most useful as a utility man.

I guess neither would be horrible if the rest of the team was excellent, but this team is pretty crappy and improving third base is one of the biggest gimme layups for improving in 2015.

 

[jasail]

If we just went with the best out of Holt, Middlebrooks, and Cecchini, it probably wouldn't be terrible.

 
It also probably wouldn't be too good.
 
To my eyes, Holt's worst position is probably 3B. Additionally, it's probable that we saw his ceiling this year, so some offensive regression should be expected. IMO, in 2015 he features better as a LHH utility player that can get reps in the OF/IF to balance out the starting 9s handedness.
 
WMB just shouldn't even be an option at this point. It can be argued that he has too much upside to sell this low on, but it's apparent to me that if they want to field a competitive team next year they can't go into the season with him trying to conquer his recent ineptitude at the MLB level.
 
That leaves Garin. In his brief time in Boston this September, it looks like he may have figured out how to play defense. However, until he consistently demonstrates that he can be a solid 3B, I have a hard time wanting him to work the same side of the IF as Xander. There are also potential issues with his bat demonstrated by his sub-par season at AAA this year. As HRB points out, they have enough question marks in their lineup and adding another one is a good recipe for building a team like they did this year - lot of young talent and a lot of question marks that need to work out to be competitive. I'd rather he start the season at AAA and force his way into the lineup ala Mookie in 2014 and X in 2013.  
 
I think they need to address this position with a proven veteran. I saw someone pose a Cespedes + trade for Beltre and I think that would be interesting. Beltre would replace Cespedes production and then some. Then a Nava/Brentz LF platoon would be quite productive, plus it starts to bleed the glut of OFers we have going into next year. I like both Panda and Headley as well, but their price tags could be too rich for the player and risk they pose.  

 

[Max Venerable]

I can't say that I really think the Sox will or should prioritize 3B given their need for frontline starting pitching, but if they do I hope they go for this guy:
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirha01.shtml?redir
 
Its amazing that he is just 30 years old - the upside of what Ramierez has to offer if healthy is signifigant enough to take a chance on.  Barring that, I'd rather see the Sox just roll with what they have for another year, maybe adding a sleeper type to the pot if they are ready to give up on Middlebrooks (I am). 

 

[Lowrielicious]

I can't say that I really think the Sox will or should prioritize 3B given their need for frontline starting pitching, but if they do I hope they go for this guy:
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirha01.shtml?redir
 
Its amazing that he is just 30 years old - the upside of what Ramierez has to offer if healthy is signifigant enough to take a chance on.  Barring that, I'd rather see the Sox just roll with what they have for another year, maybe adding a sleeper type to the pot if they are ready to give up on Middlebrooks (I am). 

The problem with that is you will pay a LOT for that uninjured upside.
Plus you need to convince him to play 3B assuming X stays at SS, and if that is the case you are locked in to X at SS (or moving Hanley and his poor defense there) due to the time and money it will take to get Hanley. I can't see it happening.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I think Betts could play a solid 3B with some work in spring training. The arm might be a little fringey but not awful. His athleticism and quick reactions would play up well there.

I like that better as a stopgap solution than giving a 3+ year deal to Headley or an even longer one to Panda. In 2016, Betts can move back to the outfield if Cecchini or Marrero are ready.

Edit: just caught up with comments in the other thread about Farrell ruling that out. That's an odd decision to me but it seems pretty definitive. Oh well.

 

[67WasBest]

I think we can take a quote, offered in context of a window of time and twist it to impact all time when the quote fails to include the qualifier.  I believe Farrell's comment about no Betts on the left side was for the 2014 season, and was offered to remove any pressure from WMB.  That statement does not mean that Betts to 3B is choice #1.  BC will make his runs at 3B personnel, but imo, he will do so with the understanding that he has an acceptable one year solution at 3B in Betts.  It won't be his first option, but it is a very acceptable fallback if choices 1, 2 and even 3 prove too costly.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Before you lean too heavily on his 2014 disappointment, remember that Cecchini was given a pretty speedy trip through the upper minors. This time two years ago he had just finished the season in Greenville. He then spent just a half-season each in Salem and Portland. It shouldn't have been all that surprising that he struggled at first in Pawtucket, but he picked it back up after the ASB for an .829 OPS. If you combine his MLB and AAA lines post-ASB, he's slashing .288/.367/.473.
 
In short, Cecchini hit a fairly predictable bump, and there's good reason to think he's gotten over it. I wouldn't be either surprised or distressed to hear that the Sox are thinking of him as their #1 candidate to start at 3B next year, though an argument could be made for letting him start in Pawtucket and consolidate his 2nd-half 2014 progress.

 

[alwyn96]

Before you lean too heavily on his 2014 disappointment, remember that Cecchini was given a pretty speedy trip through the upper minors. This time two years ago he had just finished the season in Greenville. He then spent just a half-season each in Salem and Portland. It shouldn't have been all that surprising that he struggled at first in Pawtucket, but he picked it back up after the ASB for an .829 OPS. If you combine his MLB and AAA lines post-ASB, he's slashing .288/.367/.473.
 
In short, Cecchini hit a fairly predictable bump, and there's good reason to think he's gotten over it. I wouldn't be either surprised or distressed to hear that the Sox are thinking of him as their #1 candidate to start at 3B next year, though an argument could be made for letting him start in Pawtucket and consolidate his 2nd-half 2014 progress.

 
I'd be surprised and distressed. It's a good sign that he's finishing strong, but I think you'd want to see a guy have a little more than 3 good months, particularly when he struggled so much to hit AAA pitching and doesn't have a very good defensive reputation. We're still talking about a guy who put up a 712 OPS in AAA. If the Red Sox are planning to contend in 2015, then I think they need to do better.  

 

[Hank Scorpio]

With some suggesting Swihart might move from catcher, and considering he has a plus arm - would Swihart be a possible future option at third base?

 

[Rasputin]

With some suggesting Swihart might move from catcher, and considering he has a plus arm - would Swihart be a possible future option at third base?

 
Maybe, but that doesn't help us in 2015.

 

[alwyn96]

Wouldn't we also want to keep Swihart at catcher as long as possible, considering the real possibility that Vazquez won't hit enough?

 
Yeah, what's this Swihart to 3B business? Is there some rumor I missed? Why would they move him? 

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Aside from the post-draft reports about Swihart's plus athleticism and potential versatility, I haven't read much of anything suggesting he be moved off catcher. He threw out 46% of runners this year and was named the system's defensive player of the year last season (fwiw). It would only happen if they felt he wasn't developing his raw talent into legitimate catching tools, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[Rasputin]

Wouldn't we also want to keep Swihart at catcher as long as possible, considering the real possibility that Vazquez won't hit enough?

 
We want to keep Swihart at catcher because catchers are more valuable than third basemen.
 
Also, Christian Vazquez is going to hit just fine. AL catchers as a whole hit for a .674 OPS this year and sure, that includes every random schmuck who played a game, but there are only six catchers with enough plate appearances to qualify. At least, according to MLB.com.
 
If you remember the talk around when he came up, he's always had a rather long adjustment period offensively whenever he moved up a level. 

 

[RochesterSamHorn]

 Middlebrooks and Cecchini are not the answers for the power bat at 3B we need and this winter is going to be our best time to address this issue with our vast array of resources. Teams are always looking to make significant moves for improvement. One such team with many holes to fill is the Oakland A's, who will  also be facing some serious PR backlash for their trade deadline moves. They'll be looking to replenish their rotation with young, cost effective arms, and also add power to  replace Cespedes. A trade that works for both teams: Cespedes,(back, to emend their bungle) Castillo, (is he really what we need in CF, as Betts looks to be the much better player)Middlebrooks/Cecchini and RDLR, to the A's for Donaldson (Oakland's 2 of their top 4 prospects are 3B) and Reddick (to emend our mistake in trading him, and add the LH corner bat we need).

 

[MakMan44]

That's not even close to netting us Donaldson. 

 

[Rasputin]

 Middlebrooks and Cecchini are not the answers for the power bat at 3B we need and this winter is going to be our best time to address this issue with our vast array of resources. Teams are always looking to make significant moves for improvement. One such team with many holes to fill is the Oakland A's, who will  also be facing some serious PR backlash for their trade deadline moves. They'll be looking to replenish their rotation with young, cost effective arms, and also add power to  replace Cespedes. A trade that works for both teams: Cespedes,(back, to emend their bungle) Castillo, (is he really what we need in CF, as Betts looks to be the much better player)Middlebrooks/Cecchini and RDLR, to the A's for Donaldson (Oakland's 2 of their top 4 prospects are 3B) and Reddick (to emend our mistake in trading him, and add the LH corner bat we need).

 
This is silly. We're not trading Castillo and Oakland isn't trading Donaldson.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Could he be worse there than LF:
 
Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe  12m
Revelation of the day: Yoenis Cespedes can play 3B. Took balls in BP (just for fun). Very impressive. Beltre-like arm.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

 
Yeah, what's this Swihart to 3B business? Is there some rumor I missed? Why would they move him? 

 
No rumor, just an idea I'm floating.
 
I've read at least a couple of write-ups of Swihart that suggest he may eventually be moved off catcher, possibly to second base. But if Swihart has a plus arm, Vazquez hits enough to catch most games and we have Pedroia and Betts capable of handing second base for years to come, I think Swihart to third makes at least some sense.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Could he be worse there than LF:
 
Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe  12m
Revelation of the day: Yoenis Cespedes can play 3B. Took balls in BP (just for fun). Very impressive. Beltre-like arm.

 
 
Holy shit, give it a try, Sox.

 

[RochesterSamHorn]

 
This is silly. We're not trading Castillo and Oakland isn't trading Donaldson.

Well, I like to think outside the box, and I would rather the Sox explore options of acquiring the much needed power corner bat with the enticement of offering a team the opportunity to fill two or three holes in their roster + pitching prospects by giving up a premium player. The acquisition would require less pieces/prospects and how many (hundreds of) millions less than the trade scenarios for Stanton? Who thought we could acquire Adrian Gonzalez in his prime, or Atlanta getting Teixeira from Texas, to name a few "silly ideas?"
Oakland, minus Lester and a big hole to fill in LF will be desperate to remain competitive with not many internal solutions and a restricted budget. I see a good match here.
 
 
.

 

[MakMan44]

Well, I like to think outside the box, and I would rather the Sox explore options of acquiring the much needed power corner bat with the enticement of offering a team the opportunity to fill two or three holes in their roster + pitching prospects by giving up a premium player. The acquisition would require less pieces/prospects and how many (hundreds of) millions less than the trade scenarios for Stanton? Who thought we could acquire Adrian Gonzalez in his prime, or Atlanta getting Teixeira from Texas, to name a few "silly ideas?"
Oakland, minus Lester and a big hole to fill in LF will be desperate to remain competitive with not many internal solutions and a restricted budget. I see a good match here.

Even in the crazy scenario that the A's move Donaldson before he hits Arb, your offer still wouldn't be enough. 
 
EDIT: Cot's says he's a super 2 so Arb 1 is this offseason. Point still stands. 

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

Well, I like to think outside the box, and I would rather the Sox explore options of acquiring the much needed power corner bat with the enticement of offering a team the opportunity to fill two or three holes in their roster + pitching prospects by giving up a premium player. The acquisition would require less pieces/prospects and how many (hundreds of) millions less than the trade scenarios for Stanton? Who thought we could acquire Adrian Gonzalez in his prime, or Atlanta getting Teixeira from Texas, to name a few "silly ideas?"
Oakland, minus Lester and a big hole to fill in LF will be desperate to remain competitive with not many internal solutions and a restricted budget. I see a good match here..

 
I like to shit in my pants. Can I propose stupid trade scenarios, too?

 

[RochesterSamHorn]

 
I like to shit in my pants. Can I propose stupid trade scenarios, too?

 
Oh goodness! Excuse me for posting, your excellency. 
What I am pointing out is what everyone here knows, we have a redundancy of talent up the middle, and lack power at the corners (not so much 1b). If we are to compete in 2015, as the Sox have stated, and we have no immediate internal options at 3b, with no outstanding free agents coming up and plenty of prospects and resources to deal from, then, let's see... a trade must happen. Who do you suggest we trade for? Someone mediocre? Okay, so maybe my proposal did't offer enough on our part (sorry, I'm not really a retired G.M.) so add another arm to the trade, or post with an intelligent rebuttal on how this is not feasible so I may actually learn something and respect your opinion.
Now get off your high horse and wipe yourself.

 

[MakMan44]

Just adding another arm to the trade doesn't make it a good trade for the A's. Instead of what you're offering, the A's would want back cost controlled talent (and a lot of it). That probably means that any offer for Donaldson starts with Mookie, Owens, and probably Swihart. 

 

[RochesterSamHorn]

Just adding another arm to the trade doesn't make it a good trade for the A's. Instead of what you're offering, the A's would want back cost controlled talent (and a lot of it). That probably means that any offer for Donaldson starts with Mookie, Owens, and probably Swihart.  

 Our three best? I wouldn't give that up for Stanton, but if this is what most believe it would take, I'd look elsewhere.
And thanks for your response.

 

[MakMan44]

 Our three best? I wouldn't give that up for Stanton, but if this is what most believe it would take, I'd look elsewhere.
And thanks for your response.

Possibly. 4 years of a 6 win 3rd baseman in his prime is going to take a lot to get. 

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Interesting tidbit from Lucchino regarding 3B next year ..
 
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/09/east-notes-olivera-stanton-red-sox-janssen-lind.html
 
 

•The Red Sox are not giving up on Will Middlebrooks in spite of building frustration, but president Larry Lucchino did make clear that the team is “looking for a left-handed hitting third baseman,” as he told WEEI’s Dennis & Callahan (via WEEI.com’s Andrew Battifarano). Though Lucchino said that prospect Garin Cecchini could be that player, he also emphasized that the team will not “make the same mistake that [we] made this year, which is to assume that so many of our young players are ready for prime time.”
 

 
Sooo .. they like Cecchini but won't commit to him next year .. and they want a LH 3B  .. that means Panda or Headley if they go the FA route. 
 
So , in order of preference here's what I think they will do
 
1. Panda on a pillow contract (not happening)
2. Panda on a reasonable 60/4 contract (unlikely)
3. Headley on a pillow contract (very likely)
4. Headley on a reasonable 40/4 contract (highly unlikely from both perspectives).
 
I really think they want to avoid any long term commitment to 3B right now - they have multiple options there - X, Holt, Cecchini, WMB, Coyle, plus the A ball guys and eventually Devers. Maybe even Betts.
 
I think they will end up with Headley for a year - Cecchini rakes in AAA and claims the job for good in June.
 
WMB - after inexplicably refusing to play winterball - is sent packing for a bag of balls to Oakland and leads the league in HRs three years from now.