Oh, sorry. I didn't see that tweet/link on my phone.You're a little late with this one
Oh, sorry. I didn't see that tweet/link on my phone.You're a little late with this one
I'm just gonna guess he was listening to the Dan Patrick radio show this morningYou're a little late with this one
If you want to argue the merits of the punishment feel free, but that has nothing to do with my post. I'm neither applauding or condemning what the NFL did in response to Spygate, but rather pointing out that many don't understand what happened there and IMO there is a clear difference in the two incidents given Astro hitters are given the opportunity to know what's coming in real time.Well you are technically correct with respect to Spygate, but the reality is that the Patriots were punished as if TAPING AT ALL was against the rules. Remember, the fury over it, from all the pundits to league officials, wasn't about "Well, sure, they were allowed to tape, they just did it from a wrong location in the building." You don't dock a team a 1st round draft pick and fine them like a million dollars total for putting the camera in the wrong place. BB was correct in that the rules did not strictly forbid the Pats from taping defensive signals, but the league sure treated the team (with the ensuing punishment, that frankly led to the Deflategate punishment as well) as if it was taping, period, that was illegal.
It's not just that the media portrayed it incorrectly; it's that the league itself punished the Pats this way. And we all know it.
Yes and I’m not disagreeing with you. Just to make sure there’s no misunderstanding.If you want to argue the merits of the punishment feel free, but that has nothing to do with my post. I'm neither applauding or condemning what the NFL did in response to Spygate, but rather pointing out that many don't understand what happened there and IMO there is a clear difference in the two incidents given Astro hitters are given the opportunity to know what's coming in real time.
This one?:There was a April 2019 one against the Yankees on Twitter this AM, I can't find it now but just mentioning it as this doesn't seem like it was confined to 2017. NY complained about whistling during game 1 of the ALCS too.
The Athletic is great, this is their business model and good for them for sticking to it in an era when most attempts at journalism/reporting suck. They have a handful of worthwhile pieces at least every day, well worth the subscription for anyone who can afford it.Sidenote: I'm aggravated this piece is behind a paywall. All the summaries of this piece online are terrible, but I'm not risking getting charged $60 because I forget to cancel something so I could read a single article. The Athletic should unlock this piece -- content is the best advertisement.
I couldn't have said it better myself.It's not just that the media portrayed it incorrectly; it's that the league itself punished the Pats this way.
This is going to be a brutal few days with every internet sleuth on earth rushing to show that every single whistle or bang is them stealing a sign. Only a matter of time before someone from Houston finds another team doing it.This vid's a tougher sell for me. The banging's not audible in real time to me.
Yeah, I have no doubt it is. It's not the fact that The Athletic has a paywall, it's that they just dropped a huge bomb of a piece that is shaking up a league ... and it's unable to be accessed by anyone who isn't subscribing. That's not how most reputable publications do it because they actually believe that their journalistic product is important. Plus, as I said, it's really the best form of advertising.The Athletic is great, this is their business model and good for them for sticking to it in an era when most attempts at journalism/reporting suck. They have a handful of worthwhile pieces at least every day, well worth the subscription for anyone who can afford it.
he is also pretty much admitting he has no intention of actually paying for the service haha. So I really dont think thy care too much about losing those customers. While I dont pay for the service, I have been tempted to purchase it and might in the future. The snippets of in depth analysis I have read from them have all been top notch.The Athletic is great, this is their business model and good for them for sticking to it in an era when most attempts at journalism/reporting suck. They have a handful of worthwhile pieces at least every day, well worth the subscription for anyone who can afford it.
Couldn't disagree more with those last two sentences (FWIW, I spent a decade working at Time) and think that those opinions have a lot to do with the sad state of journalism today, but I've posted my opinions on that recently on this site and it's off topic.Yeah, I have no doubt it is. It's not the fact that The Athletic has a paywall, it's that they just dropped a huge bomb of a piece that is shaking up a league ... and it's unable to be accessed by anyone who isn't subscribing. That's not how most reputable publications do it because they actually believe that their journalistic product is important. Plus, as I said, it's really the best form of advertising.
Couldn't disagree more with those last two sentences (FWIW, I spent a decade working at Time) and think that those opinions have a lot to do with the sad state of journalism today, but I've posted my opinions on that recently on this site and it's off topic.
Cool -- thanks for sharing, tho just to be clear: my issue isn't that I don't want to pay for The Athletic's service ever. And re. @jon abbey's "sad state of journalism" comment, I'm not asking for the site to unlock loads of content for free. The problem is that (unless I'm missing something) you can't buy a single article (or, in the past, an issue). You have to buy an annual subscription -- or risk it by signing up for a "free trial" that becomes an annual subscription if you don't cancel before it's over. And while that's hardly unique to them, it's kind of bullshit.he is also pretty much admitting he has no intention of actually paying for the service haha. So I really dont think thy care too much about losing those customers. While I dont pay for the service, I have been tempted to purchase it and might in the future. The snippets of in depth analysis I have read from them have all been top notch.
Regardless, baseballprospectus agrees with him and has made their article on the issue free for all users. You just have to login with a free basic account
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/55215/signs-stealed-delivered/
one thing is very clear—this was not a one time thing. In fact, the blunt-object-to-hollow-plastic sound can be heard in almost every game I watched.
Before the seventh pitch of the year, you can hear a bang right before Jose Altuve watches a Felix Hernandez dive below the zone. They were stealing signs on literally the first day of the season. They didn’t just come up with this on a whim halfway through the year and see if it worked. The Astros entered 2017 with a plan in place to relay signs to their hitters.
But the Patriots were videotaping from their sideline, and were bringing the camera and the tape inside it into their locker room at halftime. Being that videocameras at the time had playback functionality aren't these two things closer to the same than not? The Patriots could have, theoretically, reviewed the signals given for specific defensive calls in the locker room and then implemented a strategy to use during the 2nd half, no? So not exactly real-time, but also not post-game. As has been mentioned, had a Patriot employee been taping the same exact thing from the stands then no harm no foul. And no possible review inside the locker room.If you want to argue the merits of the punishment feel free, but that has nothing to do with my post. I'm neither applauding or condemning what the NFL did in response to Spygate, but rather pointing out that many don't understand what happened there and IMO there is a clear difference in the two incidents given Astro hitters are given the opportunity to know what's coming in real time.
What would stop a Pats employee from going into the locker room from the stands at any point? It might take a while, but it is certainly possible.But the Patriots were videotaping from their sideline, and were bringing the camera and the tape inside it into their locker room at halftime. Being that videocameras at the time had playback functionality aren't these two things closer to the same than not? The Patriots could have, theoretically, reviewed the signals given for specific defensive calls in the locker room and then implemented a strategy to use during the 2nd half, no? So not exactly real-time, but also not post-game. As has been mentioned, had a Patriot employee been taping the same exact thing from the stands then no harm no foul. And no possible review inside the locker room.
They lost 4 games in Minute Maid Park. I'm not sure who you're arguing with or if you just want to try to dunk on the Yankees but there is literally no way to know this unless someone goes back, watches those games, and identifies that the runs scored by Houston were on pitches where they were signal stealing. In other words, it's possible they did lose a few runs to this but I doubt we'll ever know.To be fair the Yankees didnt lose to the Astros in 2017 because of this.
They lost because with a 3-2 series lead they scored one combined run in games 6 and 7.
These clips of off-speed pitches getting hammered are certainly instructive, but there's another side of the coin to consider here. Batters hammering fastballs that they know are coming, aka a non-signal = a signal in itself.This is going to be a brutal few days with every internet sleuth on earth rushing to show that every single whistle or bang is them stealing a sign. Only a matter of time before someone from Houston finds another team doing it.
I just pulled up Game 7 of that series in 2017 on Youtube and goddamn I just heard a trashcan bang. Gurriel vs Kahle, bottom of the 5th, 1 out. 2-2 pitch, breaking ball outside.They lost 4 games in Minute Maid Park. I'm not sure who you're arguing with or if you just want to try to dunk on the Yankees but there is literally no way to know this unless someone goes back, watches those games, and identifies that the runs scored by Houston were on pitches where they were signal stealing. In other words, it's possible they did lose a few runs to this but I doubt we'll ever know.
Exactly. McCann hit a run scoring double in that same inning on a fastball (albeit 89 and right down the middle) but no bang beforehand. If you don't get a signal, it's not a breaking ball.These clips of off-speed pitches getting hammered are certainly instructive, but there's another side of the coin to consider here. Batters hammering fastballs that they know are coming, aka a non-signal = a signal in itself.
And that was "just" about electronically relaying information that they had apparently "stolen" in a legitimate way.I'm confused about the punishment issue. Weren't the Sox assessed a fine by mlb for the Apple watch business? (I believe the amount was undisclosed and turned over to charity.)
You can't talk about the violation or the punishment without at least acknowledging that BB was told (by league memo) not to do exactly what he later did.Well you are technically correct with respect to Spygate, but the reality is that the Patriots were punished as if TAPING AT ALL was against the rules. Remember, the fury over it, from all the pundits to league officials, wasn't about "Well, sure, they were allowed to tape, they just did it from a wrong location in the building." You don't dock a team a 1st round draft pick and fine them like a million dollars total for putting the camera in the wrong place. BB was correct in that the rules did not strictly forbid the Pats from taping defensive signals, but the league sure treated the team (with the ensuing punishment, that frankly led to the Deflategate punishment as well) as if it was taping, period, that was illegal.
It's not just that the media portrayed it incorrectly; it's that the league itself punished the Pats this way. And we all know it.
After this year's WS I think I've concluded that the postseason is just strange in general.That whole 2017 ALCS was weird:
4 games in HOU: HOU outscored NYY 15-3, wins all four
3 games in NY: NY outscored HOU 19-5, wins all three
I'm honestly not drawing any conclusions there, I have no idea what that means if anything, but it was a weird series.
“You can sum up the game of baseball in one word: ‘You never know.’”After this year's WS I think I've concluded that the postseason is just strange in general.
Bad form to quote oneself, but I realized that the Brewers' GM, David Steans, came from the Astros organization.I'll have to find it, but I read that the other teams rumored to have done similar things are the Brewers and the Rangers.
It just means that MLB hasn't found out how the Yankees cheat at homeThat whole 2017 ALCS was weird:
4 games in HOU: HOU outscored NYY 15-3, wins all four
3 games in NY: NY outscored HOU 19-5, wins all three
I'm honestly not drawing any conclusions there, I have no idea what that means if anything, but it was a weird series.
Cool -- thanks for sharing, tho just to be clear: my issue isn't that I don't want to pay for The Athletic's service ever. And re. @jon abbey's "sad state of journalism" comment, I'm not asking for the site to unlock loads of content for free. The problem is that (unless I'm missing something) you can't buy a single article (or, in the past, an issue). You have to buy an annual subscription -- or risk it by signing up for a "free trial" that becomes an annual subscription if you don't cancel before it's over. And while that's hardly unique to them, it's kind of bullshit.
I'll check out the BP piece.
Except MLB is likely terrified that shit like this is going on everywhere, and unlike the Ginger Hammer, Rob Manfred is smart enough not to fuck up the entire league's ecosytem without knowing all the facts.It really is like crazy obvious what they were doing, once it’s been deciphered. MLB should absolutely hammer these guys.
Do you think he needs to have certainty of who else might be doing this in order to punish the Astros? When the Cardinals were found to have hacked into the Astros' computer database, they didn't need to know if anyone else had done it to anyone else. They just punished the Cardinals (weakly, IMO, but still).Except MLB is likely terrified that shit like this is going on everywhere, and unlike the Ginger Hammer, Rob Manfred is smart enough not to fuck up the entire league's ecosytem without knowing all the facts.
Yeah, I think he's gonna want to have a REALLY good lay of the land before he drops the proverbial hammer.Do you think he needs to have certainty of who else might be doing this in order to punish the Astros? When the Cardinals were found to have hacked into the Astros' computer database, they didn't need to know if anyone else had done it to anyone else. They just punished the Cardinals (weakly, IMO, but still).
FWIW, the Cards devoutly claim that while what they did was inexcusable they were doing it in a defensive manner to hold off the Astros who had initiated it. Seems like everything lands at Luhnow’s feet here.Do you think he needs to have certainty of who else might be doing this in order to punish the Astros? When the Cardinals were found to have hacked into the Astros' computer database, they didn't need to know if anyone else had done it to anyone else. They just punished the Cardinals (weakly, IMO, but still).
Bumpity, bump, bump, bump. Just curious if anyone watched the prelude to the announcing of the winner on the MLB Network. Guessing it was more than just a bit awkward given it's been a huge topic of discussion on the network. Did they address the elephant in the room with Verlander and Cole sitting there live? Did either or both pull a no show?Just a quick thought before heading to work. Given he's been openly critical of MLB (in particular when it comes to the issue of whether or not the baseballs are juiced) I'd love to hear Justin Verlander's response to all of this. More so when you consider it's highly likely that he or Garret Cole will be named the league's Cy Young Award winner in a few more hours.
No, but I listened to MLBN on Sirius and the 5-6pm hour spent most of their time shitting all over Fiers while claiming everyone does it. I was quite surprised.Bumpity, bump, bump, bump. Just curious if anyone watched the prelude to the announcing of the winner on the MLB Network. Guessing it was more than just a bit awkward given it's been a huge topic of discussion on the network. Did they address the elephant in the room with Verlander and Cole sitting there live? Did either or both pull a no show?
I wonder if it’s hard to get used to hitting based off signaling. You spend 15-20 years trying to read spin and arm angle and trust your eyes and reflexes, then suddenly you’re going off banging or whistling.Astros home/road batting splits:
2017:
Home - .279/.340/.472/.812
AL Home - .262/.331/.441/.772
Road - .284/.351/.483/.834
AL Road - .250/.316/.416/.733
2018:
Home - .248/.328/.403/.730
AL Home - .254/.325/.423/.747
Road - .262/.331/.446/.777
AL Road - .245/.312/.408/.719
2019:
Home - .284/.362/.516/.878
AL Home - .254/.324/.440/.765
Road - .265/.343/.476/.819
AL Road - .252/.320/.437/.757
So weirdly, in two of the last three seasons, Houston has hit better on the road than at home. If their cheating was mostly happening at home, it's not really reflective of the actual hitting results. And it's not like Houston isn't a decent hitters' park. Here are the overall slash lines at Minute Maid the past 3 seasons:
2017: .252/.319/.432/.751 (15th in MLB in ops)
2018: .232/.302/.386/.688 (28th in MLB in ops)
2019: .251/.322/.459/.781 (7th in MLB in ops)
Compare those overall numbers with Houston's at Minute Maid:
2017
MLB: .252/.319/.432/.751
Hou: .279/.340/.472/.812
2018
MLB: .232/.302/.386/.688
Hou: .248/.328/.403/.730
2019
MLB: .251/.322/.459/.781
Hou: .284/.362/.516/.878
So Hou definitely had a huge advantage over their opponents hitting at Minute Maid. Of course some of that is due to the fact that the Astros have had incredible pitching the past 3 seasons.
2017: 4.12 era (5th in AL)
2018: 3.11 era (1st in AL)
2019: 3.66 era (2nd in AL)
So yes it's clear they were cheating. But how much of an impact did it have on the outcomes? Hard to quantify it.
Were they claiming that everyone steals signs or claiming that they steal signs in a similar manner? Also, Fiers does wear a bit of the stink on this, but his take on this and how it potentially affects the ability of young pitchers to stick in the big leagues is worth considering.No, but I listened to MLBN on Sirius and the 5-6pm hour spent most of their time shitting all over Fiers while claiming everyone does it. I was quite surprised.
If I recall correctly, Fiers spent 2 years in Detroit, why wait until now? Why not keep this behind closed doors? Why not say if other teams are also doing this?Were they claiming that everyone steals signs or claiming that they steal signs in a similar manner? Also, Fiers does wear a bit of the stink on this, but his take on this and how it potentially affects the ability of young pitchers to stick in the big leagues is worth considering.
There’s got to be a pretty strong culture of silence in the sport with the amount of time these guys spend around each other and the things they witness - cheating, drug and steroid use, etc.How about because someone asked a question and, because the Astros were in his rear view mirror, he wasn't bound to their omerta.