The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball
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It sounds like the catcher was the guy wearing the earpiece, not the bullpen coach. Not that it excuses anyone in this matter.
After all of the BS from the sports media and and other fans over the past couple decades how can you possibly care what they think about anything related to Boston teams? They’re just bad faith actors across the board. Let them rant, it’s just born of pure jealousy.
True... Nothing preventing anyone from wearing the earpiece. In fact, I would think that a bullpen catcher would have difficulty signaling the batter when he was actually warming up a pitcher. Therefore, the bullpen coach might actually be a better option.
I mean this is pretty deep. I definitely think Hinch gets a long vacation if nothing else. The hammer is coming down on Houston hard
Yeah, I agree there will almost certainly be substantial punishments, but I don’t think any suspensions will be season long and I think penalties will be aimed more at the team/s than at individuals. HOU is going to lose draft picks for starters.
I think sign stealing, electronic or otherwise, ought to be completely legal. The practice goes back to the 1880's. If you don't want them stolen,. find a better way to hide your signs.
And if all teams are free to do it, it's a level playing field. May the smartest team win.
And if all teams are free to do it, it's a level playing field. May the smartest team win.
A lot will depend upon what Hinch and the others may have said when MLB started investigating the complaints. Attempts at cover up will result in lengthy suspensions. And I do believe any actions found to have taken place in 2019 will be handled more harshly than anything that took place beforehand.
So if there needs to be 4 sets of signs given on every pitch, slowing the game to a crawl between pitches, you’re good with that?
If the league doesn’t stop the use of electronics for stealing signs in Real time, then I’m all in favor of ending sanctions for hitting batters anywhere except the head. If I’m on the mound and hear a drum go off, then on the next pitch. I’m calling a curveball and throwing a fastball right at the batters’ hands or kneecap.
Please explain how Barnes "crashed and burned". He put up a 128 ERA+ and 15.4 k/9, and was effective apart from two brutal weeks in June. He did that despite spending the majority of the year facing exclusively the opposition's best hitters, no matter the inning (6th-9th) or situation (clean or dirty inning). You can't make a comparison between him and other relievers because no pitcher on any other team had that specific role. We have no idea how, say, Chapman, Yates, or any other reliever would have performed. Barnes' 2019 numbers have to be looked at in that context.
Thinking back to the 2018 postseason, I remember seeing somewhere that Cora was asked about what changed for Red Sox pitching in 2018 versus 2017.
I can't remember his exact quote, but he said something to the effect of the Astros knew what to expect from certain pitchers (definitely Sale, maybe Pomeranz?) in certain situations - and in 2018, adjustments were made.
At the time, it seemed simple as "the Astros had good scouting on the Red Sox" - but in this new context, it's a bit more intriguing.
I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
I can't remember his exact quote, but he said something to the effect of the Astros knew what to expect from certain pitchers (definitely Sale, maybe Pomeranz?) in certain situations - and in 2018, adjustments were made.
At the time, it seemed simple as "the Astros had good scouting on the Red Sox" - but in this new context, it's a bit more intriguing.
I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
Perhaps, but your question asked about all three being suspended for the season, and those chances are zero.
I see two big issues: 1) pace of play and 2) if the home teams are able to implement technology/systems in their ballpark, then it's not a level playing field, at least within a single game.
I'm all for trying ear pieces in the Atlantic League.
Have the ear pieces send a tone signal = you have 8 (?) seconds to deliver a pitch
It would be pretty funny if the Brewers were roped into this cheating scandal — and Yelich’s over-the-top tweet last night doesn’t help their case — and it ultimately explained Travis Shaw’s breakout.
IIRC he said that while on the Astros, they completely laid off anything outside and only swung at pitches on the inner half to beat him.
yea he comes across as a jerk, but I love Josh Donaldson's reply:
View: https://twitter.com/BringerOfRain20/status/1195473303118503938
Also, Darvish dominated the Brewers in the two starts he had against them last year, 0.90 ERA, 15 ks in 10 innings. But the 1 ER he gave up was off a Yelich HR. So maybe he should share some of his wisdom with his teammates?
edit: IDK how much you follow twitter but Darvish comes across as a really likable guy. His account is pretty funny
View: https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1195470509607149569
View: https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1195709224648663044
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I'm pretty sure the frequency is printed on the side of the headset. Fortunately radio encryption has been a thing since like WWII.
The catcher talking to the pitcher with earpiece comms would kill the need for physical signs. It might also speed shit up. Honestly, I'd love to see it tested.
They still might need to have some verbal codes or shorthand to make it harder for the batter to listen in, but that wouldn't be hard.
More still coming out from The Athletic:
"An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team’s desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team’s scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.
“One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”
The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed."
https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/
"An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team’s desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team’s scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.
“One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”
The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed."
https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/
In light of recent events, I'm beginning to think it's strange that the Sox would revamp practically its entire pitching department except for Craig Bjornson.
Or the pitching coach can be calling the pitch. Or maybe even the pitcher is talking to the catcher. But regardless, it's worth seeing what it looks like.
Jeff Passan has the name of the person who sent the e-mail in the latest Athletic report, Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to GM Luhnow.
"A high-ranking Houston Astros official asked scouts to spy on opponents' dugouts leading up to the 2017 postseason, hoping to steal signs and suggesting the potential use of cameras to do so, sources familiar with the request told ESPN.
The reaction among those who received an email from Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, was mixed, sources told ESPN. Some were intrigued by the idea, sources who received the email said, while others were bothered with the thoughts of pointing cameras toward opposing teams' dugouts, a plan that could have earned them scorn without the scouting community if caught.
The email, which was first reported by The Athletic and confirmed by recipients to ESPN, is the first indication of Astros front-office involvement in potential cheating and further reveals the scope of Houston's attempts to gain advantages through intercepted signs. Major League Baseball is investigating the organization's methods of sign-stealing after pitcher Mike Fiers told The Athletic that during its World Series-winning 2017 season the team used a live video feed to steal catchers' signs and transmit them to hitters by banging on a trash can."
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28098216/astros-exec-suggested-using-cameras-spy-17-sources-say
"A high-ranking Houston Astros official asked scouts to spy on opponents' dugouts leading up to the 2017 postseason, hoping to steal signs and suggesting the potential use of cameras to do so, sources familiar with the request told ESPN.
The reaction among those who received an email from Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, was mixed, sources told ESPN. Some were intrigued by the idea, sources who received the email said, while others were bothered with the thoughts of pointing cameras toward opposing teams' dugouts, a plan that could have earned them scorn without the scouting community if caught.
The email, which was first reported by The Athletic and confirmed by recipients to ESPN, is the first indication of Astros front-office involvement in potential cheating and further reveals the scope of Houston's attempts to gain advantages through intercepted signs. Major League Baseball is investigating the organization's methods of sign-stealing after pitcher Mike Fiers told The Athletic that during its World Series-winning 2017 season the team used a live video feed to steal catchers' signs and transmit them to hitters by banging on a trash can."
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28098216/astros-exec-suggested-using-cameras-spy-17-sources-say
What are the home/road splits? Those numbers aren’t too meaningful in the aggregate since the Astros presumably didn’t have these systems in place on the road.
Well, we don't really know the scope of their systems. There's chatter that they were doing at least something on the road as well:
http://insider.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/28095708/commissioner-rob-manfred-faces-test-cracking-cheating-mlb-teams
There's no way Luhnow was unaware of this system. Now we see if Manfred has the backbone to suspend him as well as punish the Astros severely.
Sucks to hear Kevin Goldstein is involved. Was a big fan of his podcast with Jason Parks when they were both with Baseball Prospectus back in the day.
It will be interesting to see how this story continues to unfold.
It will be interesting to see how this story continues to unfold.
Well, they show *something* changed, even if possibly just in just 81 of the 162 games.
And there could be multiple reasons for that. New hitting coach. Philosophy changes. Cheating. It would be more compelling if the home/road splits were meaningfully different as it’s much easier to cheat while using technology at home than on the road. But if the rate stars dropped across the board, it’s a much less compelling data point IMO.
I was wondering where he came down on this (and hoping he wasn’t on the side of cheating) for the same reason; since he always seemed to be on the side of the scouts, I thought it was curious he was with the Astros based on them gutting their scouting department.
I don't think their home/ road splits are going to tell the whole story; the Fangraphs podcasts have pointed out that the sign-stealing apparently didn't work based on those splits, but that assumes that this was the only scheme they had (lest we forget the machine learning AI on the assitant to the GM's phone in the scouting section).
Let's check back in on AJ Hinch from the ALCS.
View: https://twitter.com/cdixon25/status/1196118791945625600
View: https://twitter.com/cdixon25/status/1196118791945625600
It would be sort of crazy if after all this talk about launch angle and the juiced ball, it was just rampant sign-stealing that led to all these crazy breakouts from the last couple of years.
The Nats doing what they believed had to be done to cope with the Astros’ bs was over-the-top depressing.
Hell, you can beat it just doing like Doyle Alexander used to do. Apparently a lot of the time he had the catcher put down a sign and he'd make a slight motion with a glove or a nod up or down from that to call the pitch. For example, the catcher puts down two fingers. Alexander moves his glove down. That means lower than 2 or 1 so he wants to throw a fastball.
To beat this, you'd have to coordinate cameras on both the catcher and on him before he starts to throw. Not likely to happen.
To beat this, you'd have to coordinate cameras on both the catcher and on him before he starts to throw. Not likely to happen.
Jomboy spots the Astros' setup, plain as day. That spot opens up to home plate and is conveniently hidden by some hanging towels. Scroll down in the Twitter thread for a shot of an Astros' employee removing a monitor from that table.
View: https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1196169482160496640?s=19
View: https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1196169482160496640?s=19
