The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

E5 Yaz

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I don't know what you would expect him to say or do at this point. He's clearly embarrassed, personally and professionally.

I think we need to step back from the ledge of expecting these guys to jump into a volcano or something. What the Astros did is hopefully the worst form of cheating that any team has done; but there isn't a team in baseball that hasn't bent the rules in ways big or small at some point through the years.

I mean, do we expect the Patriots players to throw themselves on the mercy of public opinion because of the whatever the depth of the system that culminated in Spygate did to help them win titles?
 

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Cole, at his press conference with the Yankees today, said he didn't know the cheating was going (which seems like a lie). When asked about buzzers he said it was something that he wouldn't have been privy to but that he believed the players denying it.
 

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It's just striking to me hearing these guys apologize, whether or not it was heartfelt. I can't ever recall a team admitting / apologizing for cheating or "cheating" before. I mean the Pats were adamant about DFG, and they pretty clearly explained why Spygate had borderline zero impact on them winning games.

These guys are all likely extremely pissed off if sign stealing is/was as pervasive as it seems to be. They're the ones getting made an example of when everyone else was doing it.
 

DJnVa

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Based on some of the articles and tweets I'm seeing today, I welcome the Astros taking on the mantle of the Patriots in the eyes of the media. There's finally a new whipping boy.
 

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I don't know what you would expect him to say or do at this point. He's clearly embarrassed, personally and professionally.

I think we need to step back from the ledge of expecting these guys to jump into a volcano or something. What the Astros did is hopefully the worst form of cheating that any team has done; but there isn't a team in baseball that hasn't bent the rules in ways big or small at some point through the years.

I mean, do we expect the Patriots players to throw themselves on the mercy of public opinion because of the whatever the depth of the system that culminated in Spygate did to help them win titles?
I think the broader issue is that the team very transparently is trying to have Apology Day So We Can All Move On. Which feels disingenuous considering A) It's literally the first day of camp and we haven't heard a single player really open up about this to this point, B) None of them were held accountable by the league and C) There is a palpable sense that there is more here (such as the buzzers) than they are telling us. Put another way, they will keep getting questions until there's no real reason to ask them anymore.

And Verlander is maybe a slightly special case given his red-ass tirades about cheating in the past. Yes, he's embarrassed -- but I don't think it's exactly invading his privacy to ask him what he said to his teammates. They are all--including Hinch--trying to act like this happened with their knowledge but not really their participation. I think it's fair to call bullshit there until we learn otherwise.
 

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I love that it took a week for the buzzer answer to blow up. I pointed it out last Friday when I watched the interview

edit/ I was watching MLBN over lunch and the one guy (forgot who), said that he's asked catchers if they heard any buzzing, which they all said 'no' to. But you wouldn't hear a buzzer, at least the way I'm assuming. Buzzer is probably the wrong word to use, more like vibrator, which obviously has a way different common meaning, but vibrating like a cell phone. You never heard the vibration, unless it's on a desk or something. When you're holding it, you feel
 
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E5 Yaz

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Cole, at his press conference with the Yankees today, said he didn't know the cheating was going (which seems like a lie).
We don't agree on much, but I think we can agree that your use of "seems" here is giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
 

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I have no idea what happened obviously, but keep in mind that Cole didn't go to HOU until 2018.
 

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We don't agree on much, but I think we can agree that your use of "seems" here is giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
Yeah agreed, it is a lie, I wasn't trying to give him an out by using "seems." The statements coming from players not on the Stros anymore are going to probably be sloppier than those of the players still on the team, who have probably been coached over and over again on what to say.
 

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These guys are all likely extremely pissed off if sign stealing is/was as pervasive as it seems to be. They're the ones getting made an example of when everyone else was doing it.
The anger of non-Astros suggests to me that the Astros took sign-stealing to a level that for many was totally unfair, though. So you could have a dynamic where the Astros are annoyed because they genuinely feel like they're making made an example of when everyone else was stealing signs, and others outside the organization are pissed off because there's a huge chasm between what others were doing and what the Astros did.
 

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The anger of non-Astros suggests to me that the Astros took sign-stealing to a level that for many was totally unfair, though. So you could have a dynamic where the Astros are annoyed because they genuinely feel like they're making made an example of when everyone else was stealing signs, and others outside the organization are pissed off because there's a huge chasm between what others were doing and what the Astros did.
True, good point
 

santadevil

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Perhaps they could have just said something along the lines of this and people would have been more understanding?
"We apologize for what we did in 2017, but at the time we knew there was at least one main competitor out there we would possibly face in the playoffs (cough NY) who was at the forefront of using technology to steal signs and we just didn't believe every team (especially NY) was going to adhere to the new rules put in place, especially in the playoffs with so much at stake."
First off, it's an apology
Second it may be true
Third it stops some of this victim crap constantly emanating out of NY
I don't love the Yankees either, but until I see something from the media confirming involvement by them people really need to stop posting crap like this
 

tbb345

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Jeff Nelson calling out Brian McCann, who is being painted as a guy trying to stop it:

View: https://twitter.com/NYnellie43/status/1227365601800335360
I thought that portion of the article was extremely fishy (the whole article was embarrassing to read. I'm surprised that Rosenthal would put his name on something that was essentially long-form scapegoating).

The fact that it was explicitly mentioned that McCann attempted to stop Beltran made it seem like he was one of the main sources and Rosenthal/Drellich were doing some serious water carrying. Plus, it seems like the perfect encapsulation of Brian McCann that he would be egregiously cheating behind the scenes while attempting to police any form of celebration for the sanctity of the game between the lines
 

cornwalls@6

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I don't know what you would expect him to say or do at this point. He's clearly embarrassed, personally and professionally.

I think we need to step back from the ledge of expecting these guys to jump into a volcano or something. What the Astros did is hopefully the worst form of cheating that any team has done; but there isn't a team in baseball that hasn't bent the rules in ways big or small at some point through the years.

I mean, do we expect the Patriots players to throw themselves on the mercy of public opinion because of the whatever the depth of the system that culminated in Spygate did to help them win titles?

Thank you. Jesus, the what about the children responses this has elicited here and elsewhere is a bit much. We don't even know the Red Sox level of involvement yet. If it's worse than expected, is that going to met with "fuck these guys, they're all cheaters"? To say nothing of the reactions after spy gate, how over blown it all was, this is a jealousy driven witch hunt, etc. These leagues practically beg for this, with their wink wink, nod, nod, approach to some forms of pushing the envelope, and their massive over-reactions to others. The Astros went further than they should have, and have taken their medicine. As did the Patriots with spy gate. I don't think either were crimes against humanity.
 

djbayko

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I love that it took a week for the buzzer answer to blow up. I pointed it out last Friday when I watched the interview

edit/ I was watching MLBN over lunch and the one guy (forgot who), said that he's asked catchers if they heard any buzzing, which they all said 'no' to. But you wouldn't hear a buzzer, at least the way I'm assuming. Buzzer is probably the wrong word to use, more like vibrator, which obviously has a way different common meaning, but vibrating like a cell phone. You never heard the vibration, unless it's on a desk or something. When you're holding it, you feel
Yeah, that's a moronic question. If the Astros batters were dumb enough to wear buzzers which could be heard by the catchers and umpires mere feet away, then they would have been caught a long time ago.
 

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View: https://twitter.com/godisgreat122/status/1228063598901157889


Justin Verlander in 2016: “If there is proven intent to cheat: you test positive or it’s found that you were taking an illegal substance, PEDs, and trying to cheat the system, trying to go around it, I think it should be a ban from baseball”

***

Justin Verlander in 2020: "Ummm, let me revise that ...."
Except he didn’t feel this way about his teammate Peralta:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeaxisa/status/996462447614623749
 

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Thank you. Jesus, the what about the children responses this has elicited here and elsewhere is a bit much. We don't even know the Red Sox level of involvement yet. If it's worse than expected, is that going to met with "fuck these guys, they're all cheaters"? To say nothing of the reactions after spy gate, how over blown it all was, this is a jealousy driven witch hunt, etc. These leagues practically beg for this, with their wink wink, nod, nod, approach to some forms of pushing the envelope, and their massive over-reactions to others. The Astros went further than they should have, and have taken their medicine. As did the Patriots with spy gate. I don't think either were crimes against humanity.
You get that this was like a thousand times worse than anything the Patriots were ever even accused of, right? Things are still coming out, although this is from 2018:

“There have also been whispers throughout the industry that the Astros are not calibrating their TrackMan (a ball-tracking data system) properly throughout their organization, particularly at the minor league levels, which according to another industry source, can make it appear as if a particular pitcher's spin rate is too high or too low.

"The counter to that is, you can check Justin Verlander's spin rate at AT&T Park and CitiField and so on to at least have a checks-and-balance system," the source says. "But say you're in trade talks and you want to check a particular minor league pitcher, and they bump up the spin rate of a guy when he's pitching. Maybe you do this on mid-level prospects, and someone goes, 'Wow, this guy is only throwing 90 or 91 m.p.h., but it's a high-spin fastball.'

"Then you get him, and you're like, 'Hmmm, why doesn't his fastball spin like we thought?' That was going around the industry earlier in the year. And when you add it to the whole pie, it's certainly plausible. MLB is going to have to take over oversight of TrackMan systems [and other areas]."”

 

Marciano490

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I don’t get the endgame for Houston on this. Assuming cheating isn’t super widespread, they expect opposing teams or former players traded or lost through free agency to be quiet about it because...why?

I get a sense of omertà or a desire not to be a rat, but - especially for former Houston pitchers - why in the world would you sit on that information when it’s your livelihood and current teammates at stake?

Like, they must’ve know this was bound to blow.
 

djbayko

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You get that this was like a thousand times worse than anything the Patriots were ever even accused of, right? Things are still coming out, although this is from 2018:

“There have also been whispers throughout the industry that the Astros are not calibrating their TrackMan (a ball-tracking data system) properly throughout their organization, particularly at the minor league levels, which according to another industry source, can make it appear as if a particular pitcher's spin rate is too high or too low.

"The counter to that is, you can check Justin Verlander's spin rate at AT&T Park and CitiField and so on to at least have a checks-and-balance system," the source says. "But say you're in trade talks and you want to check a particular minor league pitcher, and they bump up the spin rate of a guy when he's pitching. Maybe you do this on mid-level prospects, and someone goes, 'Wow, this guy is only throwing 90 or 91 m.p.h., but it's a high-spin fastball.'

"Then you get him, and you're like, 'Hmmm, why doesn't his fastball spin like we thought?' That was going around the industry earlier in the year. And when you add it to the whole pie, it's certainly plausible. MLB is going to have to take over oversight of TrackMan systems [and other areas]."”

My reaction to MLB not having oversight of such league tools is similar to how I reacted to the fact that they installed a replay booth near every dugout without proper supervision.

“What the hell?”
 

TheDivision

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Except he didn’t feel this way about his teammate Peralta:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeaxisa/status/996462447614623749
Wasn’t it Meadow Soprano who said, “sometimes we’re all hypocrites?” We shouldn’t expect anything less than that from Verlander or whoever else. These guys are under a lot of scrutiny, and their answers are probably what they believe will de-escalate matters in the eyes of the public. With regards to the Twitter comparison, it’s fair to call him out on it, but I think most people can get called out on a number of inconsistencies if they were to be scrutinized, but yeah sometimes were all hypocrites.
 

garlan5

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Wasn't there an issue with Kimbrel tipping pitches against the Astros in 2018 ALCS? Or am I misremembering.
 

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Wasn't there an issue with Kimbrel tipping pitches against the Astros in 2018 ALCS? Or am I misremembering.
I remember thinking that the Astros knew when Sale was going to throw the slider in the 2017 playoffs. The Red Sox started every game down a few runs because their starters threw meatballs. Now it appears that someone stole the recipe.
 

Marciano490

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What’s the rule with deciphering “tells” by video review as opposed to signs? Like if they analyzed tape and discovered Kimbrel or EdRod positioned their gloves certain ways before certain pitches, is that kosher?
 

garlan5

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What’s the rule with deciphering “tells” by video review as opposed to signs? Like if they analyzed tape and discovered Kimbrel or EdRod positioned their gloves certain ways before certain pitches, is that kosher?
My take is maybe it wasn't pitch tipping but instead their scheme figured it out. That could be hyperbole or not, idk. Would mean Pedey didn't really figure anything out Kimbrel was doing. When you look back things start to all seem sketchy. That look on Chapmans face after Altuve's hr seems more and more like "I know why you hit that, f**ker- but I cant tell"
 

Marciano490

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It’s just strange. There’s so much whining in baseball about unwritten rules and people getting pissed when someone bunts during a no hitter, but teams are losing playoff games and pitchers are seeing their ERA’s blown to hell, and not making a bigger stink of it?

I get they went to MLB, but I’m shocked it took so long for someone to go to the press. If I was Chapman, I would’ve had my PC on the mound.
 

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djbayko

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It’s just strange. There’s so much whining in baseball about unwritten rules and people getting pissed when someone bunts during a no hitter, but teams are losing playoff games and pitchers are seeing their ERA’s blown to hell, and not making a bigger stink of it?

I get they went to MLB, but I’m shocked it took so long for someone to go to the press. If I was Chapman, I would’ve had my PC on the mound.
Beliefs vs. hard evidence. Exactly what would the pitcher accuse them of in that on-mound PC when they had no idea how the system worked? It's not surprising that it took someone on the inside to blow the whole thing wide open because now there are specific accusations as opposed to feelings.
 

djbayko

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Verlander is in a bad spot. He wasn't in the battersbox hitting but yes he benefited from it. He seems to acknowledge he knew it was going on but is he really expected to step up and say something at that time?
Yeah, he probably should have. And who knows? Maybe he did. But even if he didn't, I can't really fault these guys too much when the coaches and especially the front office not only condoned the practice, but fostered it.

I can also see there possibly being a gradual evolution from a small experiment where everyone was elbowing each other and laughing about it in the dugout to the sophisticated end state system where batters relied on it up and down the lineup. Maybe there wasn't any point in time where such a huge leap occurred that people came into work the next day and thought "Wait a minute. What are we doing now?" Each step is incremental and quickly normalized. I'm not excusing the behavior, but this is how fraudulent schemes tend to get out of control.
 
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Marciano490

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Beliefs vs. hard evidence. Exactly what would the pitcher accuse them of in that on-mound PC when they had no idea how the system worked? It's not surprising that it took someone on the inside to blow the whole thing wide open because now there are specific accusations as opposed to feelings.
Well, 10-12 teams apparently knew enough to go to MLB. Former Astros must’ve filled their new teammates in on the scheme, right? And, these guys have been playing their whole lives, they can’t figure out the trash banging or when a team is sitting on pitches again and again and again?
 

garlan5

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Beliefs vs. hard evidence. Exactly what would the pitcher accuse them of in that on-mound PC when they had no idea how the system worked? It's not surprising that it took someone on the inside to blow the whole thing wide open because now there are specific accusations as opposed to feelings.
A lot maybe hinge on the fact their own teams may have been doing things similar, even though maybe not quite as reprehensible.

edit: also what does PC stand for in the original post. I thought he meant pitching coach but that doesn't fit your response. It's prob obvious and i'm missing it.
 

djbayko

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Well, 10-12 teams apparently knew enough to go to MLB. Former Astros must’ve filled their new teammates in on the scheme, right? And, these guys have been playing their whole lives, they can’t figure out the trash banging or when a team is sitting on pitches again and again and again?
Yeah, it’s being reported that several teams got so fed up that they approached the league. But it also appears that the league didn’t investigare, which leads me to assume that they had nothing concrete. Just whispers of wrongdoing and circimstantial evidence.

If you’re going to go public with something like this, you’d better not swing and miss.
 

Marciano490

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Yeah, it’s being reported that several teams got so fed up that they approached the league. But it also appears that the league didn’t investigare, which leads me to assume that they had nothing concrete. Just whispers of wrongdoing and circimstantial evidence.

If you’re going to go public with something like this, you’d better not swing and miss.
But that brings me back to former players. I wonder if there was some sort of NDA or something involved?

I get everything looks dumb and inevitable in hindsight and plenty of people deal drugs or rob banks even though they’re likely to be caught eventually, but running a scheme like this in a competitive league with frequent player movement and millions of dollars at stakes seems incredibly arrogant or reckless.

Though I guess banners fly forever.

Edit: and I suppose there’s the Serpico thing. Any former players benefitted from the system so they’d be ratting on themselves. Even pitchers got W’s, H’s and saves.
 
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Archer1979

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But that brings me back to former players. I wonder if there was some sort of NDA or something involved?
There's a code. A friend of mine was a student at a Big East school many years ago. He was involved in the game day activities for the basketball team. The sign above the locker room door was fairly clear... "What you see hear, stays here." Obviously, there should be limits, but what do you do as a player if someone colors way outside the lines? It's a tough call if you're an innocent bystander.

All that said, the veteran leadership of the Astros really failed that team by failing to police this in-house.
 
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JimD

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There's a code. A friend of mine was a student at a Big East school many years ago. He was involved in the game day activities far the basketball team. The sign above the locker room door was fairly clear... "What you see hear, stays here." Obviously, there should be limits, but what do you do as a player if someone colors way outside the lines? It's a tough call if you're an innocent bystander.

All that said, the veteran leadership of the Astros really failed that team by failing to police this in-house.
If Beltran was any example, the veteran leadership were among the worst offenders.
 

lexrageorge

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Carlos Beltran was 40 years old and 2017 represented his last chance to get a World Series ring. It was his 7th time in the post-season, with the 6th team, and only the second time in the Series, the first of which was in 2013. You cannot expect Beltran to do anything here, especially if the coaches and GM were either involved or enthusiastically supported the scheme. Before the scandal broke, he was in the HoF conversation, and a championship season could have been enough to sway a couple of voters to put him over the threshold. We'll see what happens now.

It's indeed possible that former Astro players mentioned the scheme to other teams under confidence. Teams did report the Astros to MLB after all. Manfred had incentive to hope it would all blow over. Probably figured that stationing an employee in the replay room would be sufficient to make the problem go away.

The incentives aren't there for the players to go the press. Fiers was called out by a faux-journalist on ESPN.
 

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Verlander is in a bad spot. He wasn't in the battersbox hitting but yes he benefited from it. He seems to acknowledge he knew it was going on but is he really expected to step up and say something at that time?
No more than any other the others. I don't think any one expects that they would step up and say something at the time, but as you say he benefited from it. So much so that he was awarded a $66 million two year extension last season. Not bad for go along get along.
 

Van Everyman

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I don't know what you would expect him to say or do at this point. He's clearly embarrassed, personally and professionally.

I think we need to step back from the ledge of expecting these guys to jump into a volcano or something. What the Astros did is hopefully the worst form of cheating that any team has done; but there isn't a team in baseball that hasn't bent the rules in ways big or small at some point through the years.

I mean, do we expect the Patriots players to throw themselves on the mercy of public opinion because of the whatever the depth of the system that culminated in Spygate did to help them win titles?
It's just striking to me hearing these guys apologize, whether or not it was heartfelt. I can't ever recall a team admitting / apologizing for cheating or "cheating" before. I mean the Pats were adamant about DFG, and they pretty clearly explained why Spygate had borderline zero impact on them winning games.

These guys are all likely extremely pissed off if sign stealing is/was as pervasive as it seems to be. They're the ones getting made an example of when everyone else was doing it.
Thank you. Jesus, the what about the children responses this has elicited here and elsewhere is a bit much. We don't even know the Red Sox level of involvement yet. If it's worse than expected, is that going to met with "fuck these guys, they're all cheaters"? To say nothing of the reactions after spy gate, how over blown it all was, this is a jealousy driven witch hunt, etc. These leagues practically beg for this, with their wink wink, nod, nod, approach to some forms of pushing the envelope, and their massive over-reactions to others. The Astros went further than they should have, and have taken their medicine. As did the Patriots with spy gate. I don't think either were crimes against humanity.
For the posters tut-tutting those who are criticizing the players about this, I'd recommend you read Passan's latest which pins the majority of the problem for this dynamic on Crane, who's refusal to own any of this has left the players hanging out to dry. A key passage:
When pressed on what exactly he meant by that, Crane said: "I didn't say it didn't impact the game." He had, of course -- 60 seconds earlier, for those curious about the capacity of Crane's short-term memory. And it did, clearly, as his team's shortstop, Carlos Correa, would later admit.

"It was definitely an advantage," Correa said, one of many honest decrees offered by Astros players to reporters after Crane spoke. Outfielder Josh Reddick, when asked about remorse, copped to not feeling it until The Athletic's November story that laid bare the Astros' scheme -- a real sort of admission that follows the logical path of this scandal: the Astros thought nothing of their cheating until they were caught. Redemption starts with an honest self-assessment of damage done by one's actions, and Astros players are not irredeemable people. They cheated at a game. It is wrong, and it is disappointing, and it is unfortunate. It is a transgression with clear casualties -- those whose careers were ended, livelihoods altered and lives changed. It will chase them, and rightfully so. But it is no mortal sin.

What's indefensible is asking for forgiveness while not abiding by its path. Crane zigzagged around his Thursday. His ruminations on accountability were particularly rich. He mused that Major League Baseball's suspension and his firing of general manager Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch served as satisfactory pounds of flesh because, though neither was responsible for implementing the scheme, both were responsible for overseeing the team's baseball operations. Never mind that Crane, as the team's owner, was responsible for overseeing Luhnow and Hinch.

"No," Crane said, "I don't think I should be held accountable."
Crane is putting them in a bad spot -- not just with his words but by creating a culture in which the whole thing could happen and then denying it had any impact on the game at all.

I actually think Manfred has handled this ok for the most part, but am increasingly thinking his biggest mistake was absolving Crane in the first paragraph of the report. The guy is poison.
 

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I actually think Manfred has handled this ok for the most part, but am increasingly thinking his biggest mistake was absolving Crane in the first paragraph of the report. The guy is poison.
Agreed to the extent suggesting Crane isn't at all to blame is ridiculous, but Manfred does work for the owners. It's not terribly surprising to me he would be pretty reticent to impose any discipline on one of his bosses without a smoking gun, especially considering there are probably plenty of other owners that are thinking "shit, I wouldn't want to be disciplined if it turns out my team was doing something like this" and making that known to Manfred explicitly or implicitly.
 

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Yeah, I don't mean that he should've suspended Crane or whatever -- owner suspensions are always a joke anyway given their deep pockets -- and forcing owners to sell should probably be limited to Sterling-esque egregiousness. Rather, I mean that Manfred didn't really need to go out of his way to praise Crane in the opening of the report. For context, here's what it said (relevant passage bolded):

Statement of the Commissioner
On November 12, 2019, former Houston Astros player Mike Fiers publicly alleged in an article published by Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic that the Astros had engaged in sign-stealing methods in 2017 that violated MLB’s rules. The allegations in the article created significant concern among many of our fans and other MLB Clubs regarding the adherence to our rules by those participating in our games, and the principles of sportsmanship and fair competition. As I have previously stated, I treat these allegations with the utmost seriousness, and I instructed our Department of Investigations (“DOI”) to conduct a thorough investigation. I believe transparency with our fans and our Clubs regarding what occurred is extremely important, and this report is my attempt to achieve that objective. At the outset, I also can say our investigation revealed absolutely no evidence that Jim Crane, the owner of the Astros, was aware of any of the conduct described in this report. Crane is extraordinarily troubled and upset by the conduct of members of his organization, fully supported my investigation, and provided unfettered access to any and all information requested. The investigation was led by Bryan Seeley and Moira Weinberg of the DOI, who both have substantial experience investigating baseball operations matters. The investigation covered the period from 2016 through the present. During the investigation, the DOI interviewed 68 witnesses, including 23 current and former Astros players. Some witnesses were interviewed multiple times. The DOI also reviewed tens of thousands of emails, Slack communications, text messages, video clips, and photographs. The Astros fully cooperated with the investigation, producing all requested electronic communications and making all requested employees available for interviews. Upon request, certain Astros employees provided their cellular telephones to be imaged and searched. I afforded the Astros and their employees the opportunity to submit evidence relevant to this matter and present any arguments to me and my staff. I write now to explain the findings of the investigation, and the basis for my decision to discipline the Astros and certain individuals.
I don't doubt that Crane (and perhaps other owners) pushed hard for Manfred to say something to this effect. But as a matter of executive communications, Manfred would have been better served to leave it as something more along the lines of "Jim Crane fully supported my investigation and provided unfettered access to any and all information requested" maybe leaving how shocked, horrified and angry he was by all this to a voiceover during an interview. If for no other reason than it clearly really isn't true, as evidenced by yesterday's press conference.

Perhaps Manfred pushed back and really had his hands tied here. But it's a bad look that ultimately doesn't serve Crane well either because it makes the report look less serious than it probably was.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
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Apr 25, 2002
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For the posters tut-tutting those who are criticizing the players about this ...
No one is tut-tutting the players. Speaking for myself, I thin k the over-the-top outrage is just pathetic to read or listen to
 

Van Everyman

Member
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Apr 30, 2009
18,748
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No one is tut-tutting the players. Speaking for myself, I thin k the over-the-top outrage is just pathetic to read or listen to
Is that happening on SoSH? Honest question. From my perspective, I don’t see people asking or clamoring for lifetime bans or trophy abdication. And I hear you on Spygate.

But putting aside whether it helped the Pats or not, players weren’t taking snaps with the express knowledge that the plays being called by their coaches were being stolen in real time from their opponent. This was active participation and involvement with some players going so far as to trying to stop using the signals but then using them by choice, for instance in the case of Josh Reddick, against tough lefties or when they were slumping.

There’s no question that both scandals were driven largely by decisions made by management or coaches. But what the Astros did—how it worked in practice, the effect it had on the field—feels almost totally different to me. For me, it’s less about outrage than shock that it went this far (and maybe farther).
 

joyofsox

empty, bleak
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Jul 14, 2005
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Yeah, it’s being reported that several teams got so fed up that they approached the league. But it also appears that the league didn’t investigare, which leads me to assume that they had nothing concrete. Just whispers of wrongdoing and circimstantial evidence.
It leads me to assume that Manfred and MLB would prefer to sit on the complaints of 10-12 teams and hope (and work) like hell this explosive information doesn't get out. Which is exactly what the National Commission did in the 1910s when it was known throughout baseball that gambling was a huge problem and numerous games (regular season and World Series) were being thrown. They kept quiet, fed the public a load of BS about the purity of the Great American Game (TM), and hoped it wouldn't blow up in their faces. Until it blew up in their faces. And even then, after 1919 WS, they made sure that what became known publicly was as little as possible.