That was then: Celebrating what was

Van Everyman

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Like, losing undefeated sucked. But Atlanta was so epic that it transcends the local and even many non-Pats fans think it’s kinda funny and cool. I really don’t know.
Too many people sleeping on the value of the '07 win. It's not just a SB win, it's sports immortality. It makes you the greatest NFL team of all time and routinely puts you at or near the top of any list of greatest sports teams of all time. Not even taking into account the extra game(s), it's the one thing Mahomes and Reid are never going to accomplish. It's worth any of the 6 wins and probably more than one.
Sure, but I'm not sure I actually feel the same way about it anymore. The Atlanta SB just seemed to affirm their utter dominance and mastery of the sport. Is it the same as 19-0? Of course not. But winning that one--and another two years later--accomplished a lot of what being able to say "we went undefeated" would have. I mean, does anyone seriously think at this point that, like, the 90's Cowboys were as good as the Pats were?

On a more personal note, and to @Reverend's point, LI kind of made 2008 dissipate for me. It was the first Super Bowl my crazy Boston sports fan daughter was old enough to watch with me until the end. We went through the pain of going down--and down big--and while she was just about completely losing it (I think she almost keeled over when Gostkowski missed the XP), I was just very zen about the whole thing because 1) we'd won a lot by then, 2) we won on the single greatest play in football history two years earlier and 3) we had Tom Brady. Which I told her (she was 9), "We are probably going to lose -- but if anyone can come back from this? It's Tom Brady." Jumping up and down on the sofa with her after we won will forever be my favorite sports moment, I don't care what else happens.

It's not the same kind of immortality of undefeated. But it's immortality nonetheless.
 

BaseballJones

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Too many people sleeping on the value of the '07 win. It's not just a SB win, it's sports immortality. It makes you the greatest NFL team of all time and routinely puts you at or near the top of any list of greatest sports teams of all time. Not even taking into account the extra game(s), it's the one thing Mahomes and Reid are never going to accomplish. It's worth any of the 6 wins and probably more than one.
Very true. On the other hand… it would mean five SB titles instead of six, which would put the franchise behind Pittsburgh. That’s important too.

But yes I’d probably trade two SB titles for 07 immortality. But I wouldn’t trade 14 or 16, or even 01 because 01 is what got it all started.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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Too many people sleeping on the value of the '07 win. It's not just a SB win, it's sports immortality. It makes you the greatest NFL team of all time and routinely puts you at or near the top of any list of greatest sports teams of all time. Not even taking into account the extra game(s), it's the one thing Mahomes and Reid are never going to accomplish. It's worth any of the 6 wins and probably more than one.
Co-sign without hesitation.
 

Pandemonium67

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The Atlanta SB was absolutely legendary. Cannot give that one up, even for immortality.

That said, I'd kinda consider it if the Pats won the 07 SB by Brady completing an 85-yard bomb (or whatever it was) to Moss in the last minute. Yeah, I'd have to consider that.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Too many people sleeping on the value of the '07 win. It's not just a SB win, it's sports immortality. It makes you the greatest NFL team of all time and routinely puts you at or near the top of any list of greatest sports teams of all time. Not even taking into account the extra game(s), it's the one thing Mahomes and Reid are never going to accomplish. It's worth any of the 6 wins and probably more than one.
The 2007 Pats are already considered one of the greatest teams of all time

Personally, I’d prefer more happy memories than fewer. So I wouldn’t do anything other than a 1 for 1 trade. But I’m not sure which.

Philly (SB39) made 3 out of 4 and cemented the dynasty. I guess Rams 2, but if they lose that one then Brady goes out with back to back Super Bowl losses on his way out of town.

As someone who doesn’t care about “sports immortality” or winning arguments with friends or listening to hot takes on the radio, I think 2 super bowls would give me more long term joy than the undefeated season.

And I think it’s at least arguable (though i suspect many would disagree) that 6 Super Bowl wins and an undefeated regular season trumps a perfect season and a 5-4 record in super bowls.

That said, if the condition was that they won SB42 by way of Brady completing that Hail Mary to Moss at the end (and then closed it out) resulting in the most epic finish to a game of all time given the stakes, it would be tough to resist the temptation to trade multiple games. If it was just a scenario where Helmet Catch doesn’t happen and everything else plays out as it did, I’m not sure. That game was ugly and the Pats didn’t play well. The replay value of that game would be pretty low minus the perfect season aspect to it. I don’t know that I’d have many fond memories of the game itself which is a key aspect to sports for me.
 
Oct 12, 2023
802
Yeah this trading multiple super bowls for one talk...I can't get down with. Pick 1 of Rams 2.0 or Carolina. Maybe could be talked into Philly 1.0, but losing to a Philly team twice would be even worse than having done it to the Giants (the former's fans are awful). Perfect season is great but not "worth two super bowls" great.
It would be interesting to see if Dolphins fans would trade their perfect season for 2 other Super Bowl wins.
 

Old Fart Tree

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I wouldn’t trade the Seahawks or falcons wins. Any other two, yes. Like, they’re not up for grabs, but for 19-0, I’m taking the call.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I think the only one I’d give up is Philly in ‘04 - ‘05 (the only time I’ve ever seen them win one in person).

I think that was actually the 2nd best Pats team behind the ‘07 team. But, they had already won 2 of 3 at that point, and while it cemented them as a dynasty, going 19-0 a couple of years later probably does the same thing.

’01 - no fucking way, Boston hadn’t won anything in so long, if you believe that karma is a thing you have to believe that Adam’s kick splitting the uprights unlocked two decades of winning in Boston. We always lose that game (note: same thing could be said of Game 6 vs. the MFY in 2004, the umps never get that call right. Note 2: Fuck Arod).

Edit: Forgot ‘03: no fucking way because that game took them from being flukes to being a legitimate year-after-year Super Bowl contender. Plus it was an epic and awesome SB. The Eagles game kind of sucked.

’14 - no fucking way, although it maybe wouldn’t have been quite as cathartic if they won in ‘07 and it wasn’t a decade long drought. But it still would have been 7 years, and the greatest play in NFL history is a thing that happened. Malcom Go!

’16 - 28 - 3? No fucking way.

’18 - as someone said upthread I wouldn’t have wanted Brady to lose his last two as a Pat and then win one in Tampa at the end. Although this one I might be able to get talked into.
 
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Scott Cooper's Grand Slam

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I think the only one I’d give up is Philly in ‘04 - ‘05 (the only time I’ve ever seen them win one in person).
As much as the Patriots won that game, my lasting memory is of McNabb puking on the field. It's almost poetic for the opposing quarterback to do that against Tom Brady on the biggest stage. I don't care that McNabb claims it never happened. The Philly win has to stand.
 

rodderick

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Too many people sleeping on the value of the '07 win. It's not just a SB win, it's sports immortality. It makes you the greatest NFL team of all time and routinely puts you at or near the top of any list of greatest sports teams of all time. Not even taking into account the extra game(s), it's the one thing Mahomes and Reid are never going to accomplish. It's worth any of the 6 wins and probably more than one.
Do you think Dolphins fans would trade the '72 title for two "regular" championships with Marino, for instance? Because I think a lot of them would be tempted.
 

macal

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I would easily give up the last Rams win for 07. Someone up thread noted that they wouldn't give up that one as it bookends the Dynasty, however, I think having the Atlanta win as the bookend is even more impressive. Instead of 6SB wins in 18 years, it would become 6 SB wins in 16 years, with a completely unbeaten season.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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Trading one-for-one is ridiculous. Of COURSE we'd trade one-for-one. The perfect season would have been enormous. Worth two other Lombardis at least.
 

Old Fart Tree

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Trading one-for-one is ridiculous. Of COURSE we'd trade one-for-one. The perfect season would have been enormous. Worth two other Lombardis at least.
FFS, exactly. This “I’d totally trade the Iggles Super Bowl straight up” shit is like when we were trying to flip Brian daubach for Bonds with some salary thrown in. Pretty soon Eric Van will be here arguing that if you look at the advanced metrics we SHOULD be able to trade the 2006 AFCCG loss to the colts and the 1997 SB loss to the packers for ring 7, MAYBE sweeten the pot with the time Brady’s knee got shredded into spaghetti a minute into the 2008 season.
 

dirtynine

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I’d never trade more than one for one. The most rings is a better legacy than a perfect season. I mean, Dolphins have it, and I’d never want to be them. I’m sure they’d trade it for a few more rings, too.
 

Van Everyman

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For me, 49, 51, and 53 purged all the demons from 42. I wouldn’t trade any Super Bowl win for the perfect season.
I pretty much agree with this. All the hosannas that would’ve been thrown our way for 19-0 came our way anyway because of the sheer dominance. And, we got more rings out of it. A lot more, truth be told.
 

JoeSuit

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Make any trades you deem worthy…just don’t involve future pick swaps. That’s the deal breaker.
 

Salva135

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The 2007 Pats are already considered one of the greatest teams of all time
Except that they're not. They're the best team that never got it done instead of the best sports team in North American sports outside of the exhibition Dream Team. That's the legacy you get if you win.
 

Devizier

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The narrative on that 2007 team is a little out of control. They started faltering on the back end of the season, something you might expect for a team with a number of older players, and if Rex Ryan wasn’t (incorrectly) awarded a timeout they would have entered the playoffs with a loss on their record.
 

BigSoxFan

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The narrative on that 2007 team is a little out of control. They started faltering on the back end of the season, something you might expect for a team with a number of older players, and if Rex Ryan wasn’t (incorrectly) awarded a timeout they would have entered the playoffs with a loss on their record.
The week before, they really struggled to put away a mediocre Eagles team at home as well.
 

tims4wins

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Even if they won the Super Bowl, their last what like 9 games were fairly uninspiring. 31-20 divisional win - they won the divisional round by way more in a lot of other years over better teams than that Jags team. Meh AFC title win over a good not great Chargers team with a broken Phil Rivers. And then a 14-10 win over a meh Giants team. The September, October, early November Pats were the best team I’ve ever seen. The mid-November and on Pats were mid-tier amongst the 20 years of the Brady era.
 

Van Everyman

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The narrative on that 2007 team is a little out of control. They started faltering on the back end of the season, something you might expect for a team with a number of older players, and if Rex Ryan wasn’t (incorrectly) awarded a timeout they would have entered the playoffs with a loss on their record.
Sammy Morris’ injury quietly hurt that team a lot. After sharing the load with Maroney the first few weeks of the season, he started to put up big yards as the season went on – and when he went down, the didn’t really have another north-south runner on the roster which after a few more weeks really sapped the offense of some dynamism.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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I've always thought the exact same thing re: Morris that season. Colvin's injury, too.

The thing about 2007 is that you can't go undefeated in any other pro sport, basketball hockey and baseball having too many games obviously. You can pull it off in college football or more rarely in college basketball, but 19-0 would have been a different kind of answer to Greatest Team debates:

"not the best? Who beat 'em?"

6 is quite the nice alternative, though.
 

Sandwich Pick

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The week before, they really struggled to put away a mediocre Eagles team at home as well.
I remember that game well. It was an SNF game with no betting line, largely because AJ Feeley was starting the game over McNabb. After Asante Samuel's pick-6 at the beginning, everyone thought it would be a 41-10ish rout.

Andy low-key coached one of the better games of his career that night.
 
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Pandemonium67

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Then there was the game at Baltimore when the Ravens would've beat them but the refs gave Harbaugh a timeout, probably improperly, which backfired and let the Pats score the game-winning TD.
The Pats were wobbly and fading at that point in the season.
 

Van Everyman

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Then there was the game at Baltimore when the Ravens would've beat them but the refs gave Harbaugh a timeout, probably improperly, which backfired and let the Pats score the game-winning TD.
The Pats were wobbly and fading at that point in the season.
This was the Rex Ryan timeout referenced above.

I don’t care what @Salva135 says upthread. This Pats dynasty is absolutely viewed on the same kind of “immortality” plane the ‘72 Dolphins are. And in many ways, they are (correctly) seen as even greater.

Given that they proceeded to have two absolutely historic SB wins 7 and 9 years later(!), I really don’t give a shit that they lost in 2007 anymore. In some ways, what they did do is both sweeter and deeper.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sammy Morris’ injury quietly hurt that team a lot. After sharing the load with Maroney the first few weeks of the season, he started to put up big yards as the season went on – and when he went down, the didn’t really have another north-south runner on the roster which after a few more weeks really sapped the offense of some dynamism.
Good call. He was a legit contributor and had 2 100 games right before his injury. Maroney was very hit or miss that year and Morris was very effective between the tackles.
 

Salva135

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This was the Rex Ryan timeout referenced above.

I don’t care what @Salva135 says upthread. This Pats dynasty is absolutely viewed on the same kind of “immortality” plane the ‘72 Dolphins are. And in many ways, they are (correctly) seen as even greater.

Given that they proceeded to have two absolutely historic SB wins 7 and 9 years later(!), I really don’t give a shit that they lost in 2007 anymore. In some ways, what they did do is both sweeter and deeper.

I mean, yes and no. It's not really fair to compare a team associated with a singular accomplishment to a team that dominated for 2 decades. When I talk about immortality I'm talking about something truly unique and special. The Chiefs are probably going to win more Super Bowls and history will probably put them in the same class as this Pats dynasty when it's all said and done, but they are very, very unlikely to accomplish an undefeated season. It was there for the taking and I think it has unicorn-level value in professional sports history.
 

Van Everyman

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I mean, yes and no. It's not really fair to compare a team associated with a singular accomplishment to a team that dominated for 2 decades. When I talk about immortality I'm talking about something truly unique and special. The Chiefs are probably going to win more Super Bowls and history will probably put them in the same class as this Pats dynasty when it's all said and done, but they are very, very unlikely to accomplish an undefeated season. It was there for the taking and I think it has unicorn-level value in professional sports history.
I hear that. I actually thought The Dynasty episode did a good job of capturing what you’re describing.
 

Salva135

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I remember that game well. It was an SNF game with no betting line, largely because AJ Feeley was starting the game over McNabb. After Asante Samuel's pick-6 at the beginning, everyone thought it would be a 41-10ish rout.

Andy low-key coached one of the better games of his career that night.
My recollection is that the line hit -23.5 going into this game, which was absurd. I believe they went 10-0 ATS to open the season, which in my opinion is one of the most impressive feats in modern professional sports. The sharps didn't know how good this team would be and they couldn't raise the line high enough to win for months because they simply kept blowing teams out D1 style. Amazing.
 

Sandwich Pick

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My recollection is that the line hit -23.5 going into this game, which was absurd. I believe they went 10-0 ATS to open the season, which in my opinion is one of the most impressive feats in modern professional sports. The sharps didn't know how good this team would be and they couldn't raise the line high enough to win for months because they simply kept blowing teams out D1 style. Amazing.
You're probably right, as a quick search shows that BB running up the score led to books constantly jacking up the lines to protect themselves. I do remember hearing that at least one book stopped taking bets for that game the day of the game. Maybe they wouldn't accept moneyline bets for the Patriots? I wasn't too familiar with all the terminology back then.
 

Rudy's Curve

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My recollection is that the line hit -23.5 going into this game, which was absurd. I believe they went 10-0 ATS to open the season, which in my opinion is one of the most impressive feats in modern professional sports. The sharps didn't know how good this team would be and they couldn't raise the line high enough to win for months because they simply kept blowing teams out D1 style. Amazing.
PFR has it at 24.5. Amazingly, that's not even the highest from my memory alone - the Peyton MVP year Broncos were 26.5 against the 0-5 Jags and, like the Pats, didn't come close to covering.
 

Salva135

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You're probably right, as a quick search shows that BB running up the score led to books constantly jacking up the lines to protect themselves. I do remember hearing that at least one book stopped taking bets for that game the day of the game. Maybe they wouldn't accept moneyline bets for the Patriots? I wasn't too familiar with all the terminology back then.

I was wrong. The spread was -24. They lost ATS with Indy, they were -5 and won 24-20, so they were 9--0 ATS.

It leads to my second favorite stat - people forget the Colts opened that season 6-0 with Peyton in his prime, at home, and they were DOGS to the 7-0 Destroyer of Worlds Patriots. You'll never see anything like that again.

The Colts game showed the first chinks in the armor, and it came to fruition with them squeaking by that Eagles team. The rest of the season was pure angst as they saw the undefeated season as a possibility, and struggled to keep up with the weight of history.
 
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