Steve Nash fired, Jacque Vaughn to Brooklyn

Kenny F'ing Powers

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It’s unfortunate that Meyers wasn’t talented enough to be antisemitic. Hopefully, in the future he calibrates his public hate speech to his skill level.

edit: damn you CD, pithier and firstier.
What was the slur?

This is why I've said here for YEARS that context matters, but it feels like I'm shouting into the ether.

The dude that drops a racist word? Easy peasy! It's hate! The dude promoting dangerous hate, but is smart enough to fine tune his words? Ehhh. Freedom of speech.

One is subversive and WAY more dangerous than the other, but whatever...
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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Didn’t Cleveland extort an extra 2d out of us after agreeing to the initial Kyrie deal? For basically no good reason?
Yeah they decided Izayer was damaged goods, despite that being obvious to everyone involved, and shook us down for a day or two until Danny said "ok, whatever, take the 2nd-rounder". I think Adam Silver had to step in and settle it Godfather style - "here's what's going to happen", etc.

People still think they're cutting Kyrie?
Cut? No. But I can see "bench him and wait for the phone to start ringing between now and February 9th, as the headlines recede and other teams suffer injuries".

I can also see a trade to the Lakers. Our productive overpaid problem for your unproductive overpaid non-problem. Just have to let things cool down for a few weeks first.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
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Nov 4, 2007
62,606
What was the slur?

This is why I've said here for YEARS that context matters, but it feels like I'm shouting into the ether.

The dude that drops a racist word? Easy peasy! It's hate! The dude promoting dangerous hate, but is smart enough to fine tune his words? Ehhh. Freedom of speech.

One is subversive and WAY more dangerous than the other, but whatever...
Too much nuance bro. Slurs are easy to deem hateful. jEwS cONtRol tHe MeDiA requires a modicum of explanation why it’s false and discriminatory.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Why not get something? They arent paying him while suspended. Nothing has really been discussed I have seen recently
Just suspend him again next and the year after.?
If Ime wants out he can break the contract no?
he'd sue and they'd have to pay him. You can't just continuously suspend the guy indefinitely to keep from paying him in the hopes he'll quit, that's a slam dunk for him when he sues you that your intent is to constructively fire him without having to honor the contract in the way you would if you actually fired him.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Cut? No. But I can see "bench him and wait for the phone to start ringing between now and February 9th, as the headlines recede and other teams suffer injuries".

I can also see a trade to the Lakers. Our productive overpaid problem for your unproductive overpaid non-problem. Just have to let things cool down for a few weeks first.
There's zero point to them firing Nash and bringing in Udoka now if they're going to bench Kyrie or trade him for negative current value. This nets team minus Kyrie has no chance, with Kyrie they have a chance if they can figure things out, and they have a lot of time to still figure it out.

I don't quite understand how benching him for months would increase his trade value though. The headlines aren't going to go away if he isn't playing, if anything they'll probably increase even more. They'll be asked every day why he isn't playing and when he'll play again, and he'll be asked the same thing.
 

McBride11

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he'd sue and they'd have to pay him. You can't just continuously suspend the guy indefinitely to keep from paying him in the hopes he'll quit, that's a slam dunk for him when he sues you that your intent is to constructively fire him without having to honor the contract in the way you would if you actually fired him.
say he didnt complete a sexual harassment course

and if he sues, Celts can leak all the details. Seems they have a trump card?

ianall of course
 

JM3

often quoted
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Dec 14, 2019
16,798
What was the slur?

This is why I've said here for YEARS that context matters, but it feels like I'm shouting into the ether.

The dude that drops a racist word? Easy peasy! It's hate! The dude promoting dangerous hate, but is smart enough to fine tune his words? Ehhh. Freedom of speech.

One is subversive and WAY more dangerous than the other, but whatever...
He called another player a

k**e b***h

during a COD Twitch stream.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
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Yeah, that’s definitely on the table here and/or worth holding out for.
The point is that when your counterparty has painted themselves into a corner with public statements about wanting your thing, and setting expectations that they will indeed come home with that thing, you have leverage. Doubly so when your ask is something that is years away and won't come home to roost with the people who are making decisions today. And that's the exact dynamic that took the Billy King deal from a big win to a legendary pantsing. And as we know from stories in the years afterwards, it was Wyc driving that bus - Danny was prepared to accept 2 firsts, and Wyc told him to go back for more multiple times, that he sensed Billy King had "deal fever" and couldn't walk away, and was right. And Wyc is still around today.

Marks / Tsai can't agree to something crazy like Claxton, but I say ask for the 2028 pick-swap rights. Or even the PHI top-8 protected first in 2027. What does Sean Marks care about that? That's 5-6 years from now. He has a Durant who needs satiating today.

The problem with the idea of holding out for some minor piece from BKN is...... good chance they just say, okay we'll hire someone else.

This is like having an old appliance that you can't throw away due to environmental regs, you're going to have to pay someone to pick it up. Then a guy in a pickup shows up and says "hey are you throwing that away? I'll take it."

You don't try to get him to give you $20 for it, you say... "It's yours" because he just saved you $50.
Is that guy in a pickup trying to compete with you, and this appliance helps him? Is this appliance one that has recently unlocked a lot of professional success for you, with the promise of lots more? Does that appliance happen to know a lot about how you make your money, and can (will) tell its new owner things that could impact that? C'mon, this is a garbage analogy, both literally and figuratively.

Ime has net asset value, as evidenced by the fact that a popular and star-studded NBA franchise decided they wanted him to coach for them after considering zero alternatives and doing zero due diligence. If it weren't for the circumstances around his suspension, and he had merely (say) demanded a trade to Brooklyn prior to the season, the asking price would've been multiple firsts - the guy just led his team to the NBA Finals in his rookie season. Should the circumstances of his suspension reduce the price? Yes. Is the resulting fair price for what is clearly a hot asset ZERO? No.

Brooklyn can indeed say "okay we'll hire someone else", but there's a nonzero cost to them for doing so. Clearly either Durant or Marks has decided that Ime is what will fix this franchise, as evidenced by the fact that Shams and Woj are all over the reporting on it. We can conclude that Udoka is the only choice even considered acceptable by 1 of 3 people - Durant, Marks or Tsai - and second place is the coaching equivalent of a set of steak knives. What are the odds they walk away over a distant-future pick swap?
 
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JM3

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Cellar-Door

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The point is that when your counterparty has painted themselves into a corner with public statements about wanting your thing, and setting expectations that they will indeed come home with that thing, you have leverage. Doubly so when your ask is something that is years away and won't come home to roost with the people who are making decisions today. And that's the exact dynamic that took the Billy King deal from a big win to a legendary pantsing. And as we know from stories in the years afterwards, it was Wyc driving that bus - Danny was prepared to accept the 3 firsts, and Wyc told him to go back for more, that he sensed Billy King had "deal fever" and couldn't walk away, and was right. And Wyc is still around today.

Marks / Tsai can't agree to something crazy like Claxton, but I say ask for the 2028 pick-swap rights. Or even the PHI top-8 protected first in 2027. What does Sean Marks care about that? That's 5-6 years from now. He has a Durant who needs satiating today.



Is that guy in a pickup trying to compete with you, and this appliance helps him? Is this appliance one that has recently unlocked a lot of professional success for you, with the promise of lots more? Does that appliance happen to know a lot about how you make your money, and can (will) tell its new owner things that could impact that? C'mon, this is a garbage analogy, both literally and figuratively.

Ime has net asset value, as evidenced by the fact that a popular and star-studded NBA franchise decided they wanted him to coach for them after considering zero alternatives and doing zero due diligence. If it weren't for the circumstances around his suspension, and he had merely (say) demanded a trade to Brooklyn prior to the season, the asking price would've been multiple firsts - the guy just led his team to the NBA Finals in his rookie season. Should the circumstances of his suspension reduce the price? Yes. Is the resulting fair price for what is clearly a hot asset ZERO? No.

Brooklyn can indeed say "okay we'll hire someone else", but there's a nonzero cost to them for doing so. Clearly either Durant or Marks has decided that Ime is what will fix this franchise, as evidenced by the fact that Shams and Woj are all over the reporting on it. We can conclude that Udoka is the only choice even considered acceptable by 1 of 3 people - Durant, Marks or Tsai - and second place is the coaching equivalent of a set of steak knives. What are the odds they walk away over a distant-future pick swap?
You're making a couple assumptions in here, the biggest one being that the leak to Shams and Woj came BEFORE they talked to BOS.... I really really doubt that based on how the NBA works, they likely reached out before they even fired Nash, and when they said "Udoka is a candidate" what it really meant was "we have already agreed with BOS that we can hire him".
The second assumption is that because BKN wants him he's wanted elsewhere, as well as that he's the only acceptable choice to 1 of the 3... there is no reason to think he's the only acceptable option, simply that he's AN option that they would like.
And,.... you aren't getting zero value for him, you're getting a bunch of money back by not paying him, and you're avoiding a nasty court battle.

Your whole premise is based on the flawed idea that BKN HAS to get Ime without any evidence that is the case, and it ignores the downsides for BOS in not letting him go. Sure you could keep him until the end of the year, then fire him, pay him $6M an see him go to BKN then... but why? Do they really think Ime is a huge difference maker for this mess of a Nets team... I kinda doubt it, if anything there is probably some value to adding more media mess to the pot there.
 

InstaFace

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You're making a couple assumptions in here, the biggest one being that the leak to Shams and Woj came BEFORE they talked to BOS.... I really really doubt that based on how the NBA works, they likely reached out before they even fired Nash, and when they said "Udoka is a candidate" what it really meant was "we have already agreed with BOS that we can hire him".
The second assumption is that because BKN wants him he's wanted elsewhere, as well as that he's the only acceptable choice to 1 of the 3... there is no reason to think he's the only acceptable option, simply that he's AN option that they would like.
And,.... you aren't getting zero value for him, you're getting a bunch of money back by not paying him, and you're avoiding a nasty court battle.

Your whole premise is based on the flawed idea that BKN HAS to get Ime without any evidence that is the case, and it ignores the downsides for BOS in not letting him go. Sure you could keep him until the end of the year, then fire him, pay him $6M an see him go to BKN then... but why? Do they really think Ime is a huge difference maker for this mess of a Nets team... I kinda doubt it, if anything there is probably some value to adding more media mess to the pot there.
OK, couple things:

  • Part of the value of the status quo to the Celtics includes "Ime Udoka not coaching any rival teams", which given that he can obviously coach, is a positive. The Nets want to remove that value.
  • "avoiding a nasty court battle", as others have pointed out, is not a benefit of a trade, to the Celtics: Ime had already publicly accepted his suspension, and no court battle appeared to be in the offing. Absent a release, Udoka continues sitting at home, getting paid something but not full NBA HC salary, and is no further distraction to the team this year. Since that's what's happening already, claiming otherwise is what requires evidence.
  • I made an argument for why Brooklyn has shown that they want Ime badly, and now - most particularly, the minimal-to-non-existent coaching search. I don't necessarily translate that to "HAS to get Ime", but the indications are that Brooklyn sees the value of getting him, over their BATNA, as a pretty decent gap. So why not try to get some of that value?
  • If Brooklyn waits until the end of the year, a bunch of other teams might inquire about Udoka (who, having served out his suspension, is probably "suitably humbled" in the public eye and no longer a toxic asset), because a bunch of other teams will be in the coaching search. Right now, there is only one team in need of a coach. Not to mention that Boston could always revisit the question of whether they want Ime to jump in again, if Mazzulla proves that he isn't up to it - Udoka is an insurance policy, albeit an iffy one. But either way: Brooklyn needs a coach right now more than Boston needs to unload their spare.

I am indeed assuming that Boston hasn't already agreed to let him go for nothing at all, and/or that they might revisit that question before the ink is dry. If that's wrong, then the last 5 pages of this thread are a bunch of circle jerking, and so be it - in Wyc / POBOBS we trust. But if that's not the case - if, say, someone in the NY sports media is trying to get out ahead of a story before they have all their facts nailed down, which surely has never happened before! - then it's worth considering what a fair ask is, and whether the Cs can get it.
 
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lexrageorge

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The Celtics front office has been airtight when it comes to news about Ime, and it would not surprise me that the same extended to any talks they would have had with the Nets. I'm with those that believe that the Nets had approached the Celtics prior to the Woj/Shams tweets. And permission to talk is different from permission to hire. The Celtics are not going to stand in anyone's way, but they may yet try to negotiate some settlement with the Nets when it comes to compensation. Personally, I'm not expecting more than a couple of seconds coming the Celtics way, and it's a win-win-win for all 3 parties involved.
 

joe dokes

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The point is that when your counterparty has painted themselves into a corner with public statements about wanting your thing, and setting expectations that they will indeed come home with that thing, you have leverage. Doubly so when your ask is something that is years away and won't come home to roost with the people who are making decisions today. And that's the exact dynamic that took the Billy King deal from a big win to a legendary pantsing. And as we know from stories in the years afterwards, it was Wyc driving that bus - Danny was prepared to accept 2 firsts, and Wyc told him to go back for more multiple times, that he sensed Billy King had "deal fever" and couldn't walk away, and was right. And Wyc is still around today.
So..everything else aside about what we think they should be done, Wyc *is* still around today. And Wyc was probably driving this bus, too. And that same bus-drivin' Wyc did *not* think it was worth it. Or, IMO, whatever it was worth wasn't more valuable than a 100 percent guarantee that he was just gone with no holdup or hassle. Given Wyc's role, it seems that anyone who says they should've got something is undervaluing what "guaranteed gone" was worth to Wyc.

edit: I suppose I should use present tense, because "no compensation" is still not official.
 

djbayko

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The point is that when your counterparty has painted themselves into a corner with public statements about wanting your thing, and setting expectations that they will indeed come home with that thing, you have leverage. Doubly so when your ask is something that is years away and won't come home to roost with the people who are making decisions today. And that's the exact dynamic that took the Billy King deal from a big win to a legendary pantsing. And as we know from stories in the years afterwards, it was Wyc driving that bus - Danny was prepared to accept 2 firsts, and Wyc told him to go back for more multiple times, that he sensed Billy King had "deal fever" and couldn't walk away, and was right. And Wyc is still around today.

Marks / Tsai can't agree to something crazy like Claxton, but I say ask for the 2028 pick-swap rights. Or even the PHI top-8 protected first in 2027. What does Sean Marks care about that? That's 5-6 years from now. He has a Durant who needs satiating today.



Is that guy in a pickup trying to compete with you, and this appliance helps him? Is this appliance one that has recently unlocked a lot of professional success for you, with the promise of lots more? Does that appliance happen to know a lot about how you make your money, and can (will) tell its new owner things that could impact that? C'mon, this is a garbage analogy, both literally and figuratively.

Ime has net asset value, as evidenced by the fact that a popular and star-studded NBA franchise decided they wanted him to coach for them after considering zero alternatives and doing zero due diligence. If it weren't for the circumstances around his suspension, and he had merely (say) demanded a trade to Brooklyn prior to the season, the asking price would've been multiple firsts - the guy just led his team to the NBA Finals in his rookie season. Should the circumstances of his suspension reduce the price? Yes. Is the resulting fair price for what is clearly a hot asset ZERO? No.

Brooklyn can indeed say "okay we'll hire someone else", but there's a nonzero cost to them for doing so. Clearly either Durant or Marks has decided that Ime is what will fix this franchise, as evidenced by the fact that Shams and Woj are all over the reporting on it. We can conclude that Udoka is the only choice even considered acceptable by 1 of 3 people - Durant, Marks or Tsai - and second place is the coaching equivalent of a set of steak knives. What are the odds they walk away over a distant-future pick swap?
In general, I agree with you that I wish the Celtics had bargained for something, given that it seems the Nets really want Udoka. However, it's very possible that the reason the Nets have very publicly gone all in on Udoka is because they had already spoken to the Celtics and received confirmation that they'd let him go without compensation. If that's the case (and I don't think we know this one way or the other yet), then I wouldn't want the Celtics to back out on their word and become known around the league as a difficult team to work with.
 

Marciano490

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There is also the potential moral quandary when getting a benefit from an asset you deemed toxic. Especially if it’s only a trash 2nd or something, I can see a stubborn or self-righteous decision maker just cutting the whole thing loose.
 

radsoxfan

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Really surprised to see so many people thinking the Celtics should be getting compensation here. They just suspended the guy for the season and clearly don't want him back.

Someone else is going to take that problem off their hands, they don't have to pay his contract, and they avoid a legal battle. That's a massive win for Wyc and the Celts. Trying to wrangle a 2nd round pick or some other mediocre asset for someone you want no part of looks kind of silly when it's clear you are happy he is leaving.

Additionally, while I'm sure they don't care much about Ime's happiness, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some players on the Celtics in touch with him. If anyone is upset with ownership about this, suspending the guy and then trying to block him from leaving while haggling over compensation would look even worse.

The only reason to make this difficult is if you think Ime is such a great coach that the Nets suddenly become contenders this year. Otherwise, pack his bags and be thankful someone else hired him.
 

InstaFace

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yeah was just coming here to post that article. It seems KD wasn't consulted, which means that this move was made by Sean Marks alone (though surely with Joe Tsai's blessing), to prevent himself from being fired along with the coach (which is what KD wanted this summer - both Marks and Nash gone).

If this doesn't even improve KD's outlook on the team, you really have to question why they'd bother.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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While I’d love to see the Celtics bleed Brooklyn for whatever they can get, I don’t think they will, and they’ll be happy to just have him gone. I think the Celtics as an organization have handled this very well, and part of that has been protecting the women who were involved in this, those who were harassed by him or any who might have taken it further. I suspect that if this blows up, those women end up in the spotlight, and no one wants that, and it isnt fair to those women.

I suspect there will be an “owner to owner” conversation about what the Celtics know. They’ve handled this well so far (I give their lawyers all of the credit of course), so I’d expect them to get with Ime and his lawyers and say “This is exactly what we are going to show Joe Tsai, and only Joe Tsai. We hear anything different in the news and we’ll know it came from you.” Then they’ll get with Tsai and his lawyers and show him exactly what they said they would. If anything comes out, or any different stories, the Celtics will know who it came from and will be in a position to respond. And I expect they’ll anonymize all the recipients of Ime’s unwanted attention, to further protect the victims, and tell Tsai and his counsel that any “follow up” with them is not an option.

If Ime’s counsel thought he had a good case, the complaint would already have been drafted, a “courtesy copy” (i.e. “we’ll file this unless we have a settlement by Tuesday”) would have been sent to the Celtics, a copy would have been leaked to friendly press, and a press conference would have been held. He wants this to go away as quietly as possible.

I’d expect there will be mutual releases between the Celtics and Ime. I’m not sure how any other third parties play out-Udoka’s counsel will want them to be part of the release, but I doubt the Celtics will leverage that for them. Hopefully the C’s have arranged for counsel for them individually.
 

TripleOT

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I wonder if the commissioner is going to step in and further sanction Udoka. A transgression regarding sexual harassment in the workplace that is so serious that ownership deemed important to suspend the coach for an entire year would end up being a suspension of a handful of games if Udoka is allowed to immediately coach the Nets. Is that the signal the NBA wants to send?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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While I’d love to see the Celtics bleed Brooklyn for whatever they can get, I don’t think they will, and they’ll be happy to just have him gone. I think the Celtics as an organization have handled this very well, and part of that has been protecting the women who were involved in this, those who were harassed by him or any who might have taken it further. I suspect that if this blows up, those women end up in the spotlight, and no one wants that, and it isnt fair to those women.

I suspect there will be an “owner to owner” conversation about what the Celtics know. They’ve handled this well so far (I give their lawyers all of the credit of course), so I’d expect them to get with Ime and his lawyers and say “This is exactly what we are going to show Joe Tsai, and only Joe Tsai. We hear anything different in the news and we’ll know it came from you.” Then they’ll get with Tsai and his lawyers and show him exactly what they said they would. If anything comes out, or any different stories, the Celtics will know who it came from and will be in a position to respond. And I expect they’ll anonymize all the recipients of Ime’s unwanted attention, to further protect the victims, and tell Tsai and his counsel that any “follow up” with them is not an option.

If Ime’s counsel thought he had a good case, the complaint would already have been drafted, a “courtesy copy” (i.e. “we’ll file this unless we have a settlement by Tuesday”) would have been sent to the Celtics, a copy would have been leaked to friendly press, and a press conference would have been held. He wants this to go away as quietly as possible.

I’d expect there will be mutual releases between the Celtics and Ime. I’m not sure how any other third parties play out-Udoka’s counsel will want them to be part of the release, but I doubt the Celtics will leverage that for them. Hopefully the C’s have arranged for counsel for them individually.
Thank you for this post. It illustrates why making this anything other than a clean break has a bunch of potential unintended consequences.

The risk/reward of drawing out the process in the hopes of extracting more value seems skewed against not only the Cs but also people who don't really have a voice. Again, the Nets may have signalled that they would pass on Udoka if Boston demanded any compensation but that's purely speculative.
 

Eddie Jurak

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While I’d love to see the Celtics bleed Brooklyn for whatever they can get, I don’t think they will, and they’ll be happy to just have him gone. I think the Celtics as an organization have handled this very well, and part of that has been protecting the women who were involved in this, those who were harassed by him or any who might have taken it further. I suspect that if this blows up, those women end up in the spotlight, and no one wants that, and it isnt fair to those women.

I suspect there will be an “owner to owner” conversation about what the Celtics know. They’ve handled this well so far (I give their lawyers all of the credit of course), so I’d expect them to get with Ime and his lawyers and say “This is exactly what we are going to show Joe Tsai, and only Joe Tsai. We hear anything different in the news and we’ll know it came from you.” Then they’ll get with Tsai and his lawyers and show him exactly what they said they would. If anything comes out, or any different stories, the Celtics will know who it came from and will be in a position to respond. And I expect they’ll anonymize all the recipients of Ime’s unwanted attention, to further protect the victims, and tell Tsai and his counsel that any “follow up” with them is not an option.

If Ime’s counsel thought he had a good case, the complaint would already have been drafted, a “courtesy copy” (i.e. “we’ll file this unless we have a settlement by Tuesday”) would have been sent to the Celtics, a copy would have been leaked to friendly press, and a press conference would have been held. He wants this to go away as quietly as possible.

I’d expect there will be mutual releases between the Celtics and Ime. I’m not sure how any other third parties play out-Udoka’s counsel will want them to be part of the release, but I doubt the Celtics will leverage that for them. Hopefully the C’s have arranged for counsel for them individually.
Maybe more than just an “owner to owner” informal chat. If Ime wants the job he would likely cooperate fully with both organizations in terms of providing whatever releases are needed for Brooklyn due diligence.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I wonder if the commissioner is going to step in and further sanction Udoka. A transgression regarding sexual harassment in the workplace that is so serious that ownership deemed important to suspend the coach for an entire year would end up being a suspension of a handful of games if Udoka is allowed to immediately coach the Nets. Is that the signal the NBA wants to send?
I wouldn’t be expecting signals from the NBA about this when the other Nets issue is going on without response
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Maybe more than just an “owner to owner” informal chat. If Ime wants the job he would likely cooperate fully with both organizations in terms of providing whatever releases are needed for Brooklyn due diligence.
Not an informal chat, VERY formal. And VERY limited, that's why it will be (or should be) just owner to owner. I'd be stunned if there is any non-basketball due diligence on this topic, and I'd be doubly stunned if the Celts let Ime talk directly to the Nets about it (maybe if they have a representative present, but I'd doubt even that). Celtics have taken great pains to limit the circle of people who really "know" some of the things that happened (and I say "some" because it is likely that no one know everything). They are not going to expand that circle to make Brooklyn comfortable with its hire. They'll share info with Tsai (and his lawyers I'm sure) and tell him he has to make the decision based on what they've shown him, and what they show him will almost certainly be objective (emails and texts) vs. subjective (descriptions of events/encounters).

The Nets here are Elon Musk waiving the due diligence on Twitter and agreeing to proceed based on what the Celtics deem "necessary data" to conclude the deal. Celts are in the driver's seat here-Durant wants Ime, the papers are announcing it as a done deal. Don't forget that the Celts also have some potential liability here-one of the most well known public figures associated with the team was acting inappropriately towards female subordinates. Regardless of how well the Celtics addressed it there are still potential claims, and the Celtics aren't going to compound that potential liability by sharing a bunch of that info with the Nets and having people's names get out in the public.
 

fairlee76

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HomeRunBaker

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Meanwhile, KD is “shocked” Nash was fired and goes in and on about how much he likes him.

Did anyone bother asking him about how he demanded Nash be fired, like, three months ago? I swear I don’t get sports reporters sometimes.
This is LOL about Durant. He’s made it clear through subliminal messages prior to the season that he has zero respect for Nash as I believe Kyrie has as well. This has been public prior to Nash’s firing. Having his agent tell Tsai that he wants Udoka is different from a PR perspective than Durant actually telling him though I suppose so it fits the “I’m shocked” narrative. The timing of Udoka being brought up immediately signifies that Tsai and the Nets have been working on this for slightly more than 24 hours.
 

JayMags71

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If the Nets hire Udoka, and I were a female in the organization, I’d be pissed. Their bosses are telling them that they only pay lip service to workplace harassment.

Moreover, aren’t the Nets playing with fire if they hire him? It’s possible that Ime hasn’t learned his lesson yet, and hiring him could lead him to believe his actions are no big deal with respect to NBA employment. Consequently, he acts in exactly the same manner that got him turfed in Boston, and then the Nets are in trouble.
 

jezza1918

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If the Nets hire Udoka, and I were a female in the organization, I’d be pissed. Their bosses are telling them that they only pay lip service to workplace harassment.

Moreover, aren’t the Nets playing with fire if they hire him? It’s possible that Ime hasn’t learned his lesson yet, and hiring him could lead him to believe his actions are no big deal with respect to NBA employment and acts in exactly the same manner that got him turfed in Boston.
Agree 100% on your first sentence. But WRT to your 2nd point, I am quite confident he has learned his lesson. After all, if sitting out a few weeks and being sent to a market where no one cares about hoops and coaching one of the greatest scorers in the history of the NBA won't teach him the error of his ways, nothing will!
 

RG33

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Nov 28, 2005
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Really surprised to see so many people thinking the Celtics should be getting compensation here. They just suspended the guy for the season and clearly don't want him back.

Someone else is going to take that problem off their hands, they don't have to pay his contract, and they avoid a legal battle. That's a massive win for Wyc and the Celts. Trying to wrangle a 2nd round pick or some other mediocre asset for someone you want no part of looks kind of silly when it's clear you are happy he is leaving.

Additionally, while I'm sure they don't care much about Ime's happiness, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some players on the Celtics in touch with him. If anyone is upset with ownership about this, suspending the guy and then trying to block him from leaving while haggling over compensation would look even worse.

The only reason to make this difficult is if you think Ime is such a great coach that the Nets suddenly become contenders this year. Otherwise, pack his bags and be thankful someone else hired him.
I am in the exact opposite boat. I’m very surprised people feel like the Celtics should not be getting compensated for allowing their former HC to go to a rival.

To me, the money is irrelevant — saving $9M over the coming 3 years is not something that translates into any real benefit for the Celtics organization. It saves Wyc some cash to buy an extra place on Nantucket perhaps.

As others have said, the “legal” situation does not seem dire considering the Celtics suspended him for violating team policy based on a 3rd party law firm’s independent report, and Ime admitted to the behaviors and took his medicine. Perhaps he would have recourse next year after the suspension if the Celtics didn’t want to payhim, but you could let him walk to another team then — or just pay him the $9m and say good riddance, again having zero impact on the salary cap, roster, or Celtics organization aside from a fiscal line item.

One thing that has not been mentioned here is how will the Celtics players react to their beloved HC who took them to the Finals all of a sudden showing up in Brooklyn and coaching a team of All-Stars? Will they ask questions then about why it is okay for him to not coach the Cs but it is okay for him to coach the Nets? Does this bring back all of the questions on why was he suspended to begin with? Does it create a tougher situation for Mazzulla if the Cs struggle and the Nets skyrocket to the top of the standings? Are we left with a young roster in April/May saying “damn, never should have let Coach leave?”.

It feels to me like the Celts have a lot of leverage here, and the pros and cons of getting rid of the “headache” by letting a legitimately talented HC go to a legitimately talented rival for nothing heavily sways to the cons.

Also, fuck Kyrie.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's also possible that Ime has a real problem and putting him in a position of power won't help. If that is the case, I sincerely hope that Ime has been working on whatever issues he might have.
How do you work on respecting superiors? That seems like more of a character flaw than a hole in your game.
 

joe dokes

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I am in the exact opposite boat. I’m very surprised people feel like the Celtics should not be getting compensated for allowing their former HC to go to a rival.


One thing that has not been mentioned here is how will the Celtics players react to their beloved HC who took them to the Finals all of a sudden showing up in Brooklyn and coaching a team of All-Stars? Will they ask questions then about why it is okay for him to not coach the Cs but it is okay for him to coach the Nets? Does this bring back all of the questions on why was he suspended to begin with? Does it create a tougher situation for Mazzulla if the Cs struggle and the Nets skyrocket to the top of the standings? Are we left with a young roster in April/May saying “damn, never should have let Coach leave?”.

It feels to me like the Celts have a lot of leverage here, and the pros and cons of getting rid of the “headache” by letting a legitimately talented HC go to a legitimately talented rival for nothing heavily sways to the cons.
It's not about whether they "should" be compensated. There's a lot of "shoulds" in this world that people choose not to pursue for a variety reasons.

Even if they got 20 1st round picks from the Nets, the players' hypothetical "problem" with why he left would still be there. Ultimately, you don't agree with the team's assessment of the relative value of the fastest and most frictionless departure vs. trying to get whatever they could get from another team for a guy they want shipped out of town who they probably were never going to let coach the team again.
 
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MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Jun 26, 2006
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I am in the exact opposite boat. I’m very surprised people feel like the Celtics should not be getting compensated for allowing their former HC to go to a rival.

To me, the money is irrelevant — saving $9M over the coming 3 years is not something that translates into any real benefit for the Celtics organization. It saves Wyc some cash to buy an extra place on Nantucket perhaps.

As others have said, the “legal” situation does not seem dire considering the Celtics suspended him for violating team policy based on a 3rd party law firm’s independent report, and Ime admitted to the behaviors and took his medicine. Perhaps he would have recourse next year after the suspension if the Celtics didn’t want to payhim, but you could let him walk to another team then — or just pay him the $9m and say good riddance, again having zero impact on the salary cap, roster, or Celtics organization aside from a fiscal line item.

One thing that has not been mentioned here is how will the Celtics players react to their beloved HC who took them to the Finals all of a sudden showing up in Brooklyn and coaching a team of All-Stars? Will they ask questions then about why it is okay for him to not coach the Cs but it is okay for him to coach the Nets? Does this bring back all of the questions on why was he suspended to begin with? Does it create a tougher situation for Mazzulla if the Cs struggle and the Nets skyrocket to the top of the standings? Are we left with a young roster in April/May saying “damn, never should have let Coach leave?”.
I agree this isn’t being considered enough. The Jays clearly look up to Kyrie/KD to at least some degree.
“Why can he coach there and not here” is an understandable question and Cs need to do the work to make sure everyone’s on board.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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How do you work on respecting superiors? That seems like more of a character flaw than a hole in your game.
Hypothetically speaking, people who have mental health issues might start respecting others (and themselves) if these mental health issues can be addressed.

Not saying that this is Ime's case at all, just pointing out something from a high level.
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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Thank you for this post. It illustrates why making this anything other than a clean break has a bunch of potential unintended consequences.

The risk/reward of drawing out the process in the hopes of extracting more value seems skewed against not only the Cs but also people who don't really have a voice. Again, the Nets may have signalled that they would pass on Udoka if Boston demanded any compensation but that's purely speculative.
I agree with everything WNW said about how the due diligence will likely go down.

However, nothing he said precludes a discussion of club-to-club compensation for the release, if and when Brooklyn has decided to extend Udoka an offer. Yes, the former conversation could have happened before their due diligence, but it might also have been deferred until the latter was decided.

In soccer transfers, the two conversations happen in parallel all the time. Club compensation usually has to be agreed before any personal terms can be finalized, but if they're starting out way apart on the latter, why drive yourself crazy to agree on the former. Here the matter is not personal terms, but assessing liability to the organization if they hire him - I can see that being the "long pole in the tent", so to speak, that needs to be resolved first.
 

jezza1918

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DJnVa

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The headline, and the tweet along with it, seem pretty alarmist IMO. Because through the rest of the article Smart also said that he loves the current coaching staff, loves the team, and realizes there's only so much the FO can say about the situation. I'll be shocked if this has some sort of actual effect on the on-court play.
The email version says he was given impression that Udoka would be back. He couldn't have believed that.

Celtics guard Marcus Smart said that when coach Ime Udoka was suspended for a year in September because of violations of organizational policies, he was given the impression that Udoka, who guided the team to the NBA Finals last June, would be back next season.

So he was surprised and disappointed Tuesday when he saw that Udoka, according to multiple reports, will soon be named Steve Nash’s replacement as head coach of the Nets.

“Obviously, we wish he was here,” Smart told the Globe Wednesday. “We have no control over that. It definitely sucks. I guess it was deemed that whatever happened was enough for him not to be the coach here, but I guess not enough for him [not] to be a coach anywhere else, obviously.”
 

bakahump

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I am shocked that so many of you are willing to let Ime leave for nothing.
1. Someone mentioned "They wheeled Ime out to the dumpster...". No they put him in the back yard with other broken appliances with the vague promise to "Fix it later". We all know that it wont get fixed and will eventually get taken to the dump. But until then he is under contract to them.
2. In this scenario, Ime gets a job, The Nets get by all accounts a promising coach (if detestable human). The Celtics get....."Piece of Mind" or "Save some money". Do you really believe that they "Make out" in this situation?
3. I would think other Teams would "quietly make it known" that they need to demand something. Or are we now allowing any suspended Player/Coach/Exec in the NBA to be courted by a rival unabated.
4. Worst case The Nets Say "Nevermind" which at this point would make them look more Inept (if possible). What Can Ime sue for? Being suspended for his actions? MIGHT this cost the Celtics some money? Maybe (though its tough to see how). But as mentioned IF this cost all 9 Million over the next 3 years thats such a minimal amount for an NBA franchise that its ridiculous. Its basically a ring chasing vet money. While best case they get some (Probably relatively "Minor") asset. An asset that at least in theory can be used to assist with "the Window" we currently find our selves in.
 

jezza1918

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The email version says he was given impression that Udoka would be back. He couldn't have believed that.
Agreed. Or maybe the writer is being a bit creative with the timeline/wording. As in, sure when the team first heard about the suspension they were under the impression he'd be back. But it was obvious to EVERYONE within like 24 hours of the suspension news breaking that the Celtics were done with him.
 

DJnVa

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I am shocked that so many of you are willing to let Ime leave for nothing.
We don't know it's nothing. There could be something that's not a basketball asset that Ime is agreeing to here.
 

bakahump

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We don't know it's nothing. There could be something that's not a basketball asset that Ime is agreeing to here.
"Not to Sue"?

Is that really something? Does Ime want this dragged out? Does he want (if not the truth) the "Other side of the story" to come out? Will that make him a "Better candidate" for some future team at some future point?
Is it the money? Its literally a pittance.

You all may end up right.....but it seems like what the celtics do "Get" is pretty low on the asset scale.
 

Gash Prex

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If Ime is not formally announced by tonight then I have to assume there was some additional information provided to the Nets that are giving them second thoughts.
 

worm0082

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Sep 19, 2002
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NBA really needs to step in and address this. Like another poster said you cant go from suspended for an entire season to getting another job after only missing a few games. But on the other hand no one is doing anything about the Kyrie nonsense either. But I don’t think Barkley and Reggie and the other TNT guys are going to be quiet about it. It’s downright embarrassing what’s going with the Nets right now.
 

joe dokes

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"Not to Sue"?

Is that really something? Does Ime want this dragged out? Does he want (if not the truth) the "Other side of the story" to come out? Will that make him a "Better candidate" for some future team at some future point?
Is it the money? Its literally a pittance.

You all may end up right.....but it seems like what the celtics do "Get" is pretty low on the asset scale.
You left out any consideration of his targets. Maybe by just letting him go they are able to forestall some cruel scorched earth tactics where he or his lawyers or his media mouthpieces shows some texts in an effort to show that "they really really really wanted it." Maybe this is the best way to keep the status quo of "his victims remain anonymous." The women who work for the Celtics have a stake here.

I am shocked that so many of you are willing to let Ime leave for nothing.
1. Someone mentioned "They wheeled Ime out to the dumpster...". No they put him in the back yard with other broken appliances with the vague promise to "Fix it later". We all know that it wont get fixed and will eventually get taken to the dump. But until then he is under contract to them.
2. In this scenario, Ime gets a job, The Nets get by all accounts a promising coach (if detestable human). The Celtics get....."Piece of Mind" or "Save some money". Do you really believe that they "Make out" in this situation?
3. I would think other Teams would "quietly make it known" that they need to demand something. Or are we now allowing any suspended Player/Coach/Exec in the NBA to be courted by a rival unabated.
4. Worst case The Nets Say "Nevermind" which at this point would make them look more Inept (if possible). What Can Ime sue for? Being suspended for his actions? MIGHT this cost the Celtics some money? Maybe (though its tough to see how). But as mentioned IF this cost all 9 Million over the next 3 years thats such a minimal amount for an NBA franchise that its ridiculous. Its basically a ring chasing vet money. While best case they get some (Probably relatively "Minor") asset. An asset that at least in theory can be used to assist with "the Window" we currently find our selves in.
I've never been in the position of the targets of his transgressions. But I'm sure their *peace* of mind has significant value to the Celtics' front office.
This situation seems to involve more than just maximizing the transaction's positive impact on the basketball court. The "relatively minor" asset acquisition isn't worth the price they think they'll have to pay.


If Ime is not formally announced by tonight then I have to assume there was some additional information provided to the Nets that are giving them second thoughts.
Nets are balking at Celtics' demand of a 2078 draft pick swap.
 
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