Steve Nash fired, Jacque Vaughn to Brooklyn

[Auger34]

I don’t know if it’s fan wishcasting. Honestly, I really don’t care if Udoka would coach the Nets tomorrow.

I think that the league has had a week of absolutely horrible PR. You have Kyrie and the movie, Josh Primo and the Spurs, and then the Miles Bridges incident being brought up again.

I might be wrong but for a league that is pretty conscious of its public image, it’s a pretty terrible look for one team to think a Coach has committed acts worthy of a year long suspension and for another to think it’s not worth any suspension whatsoever.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I might be wrong but for a league that is pretty conscious of its public image, it’s a pretty terrible look for one team to think a Coach has committed acts worthy of a year long suspension and for another to think it’s not worth any suspension whatsoever.

Without the facts being made public, and maybe even if they are (but are ambiguous enough), part of the "bad image" regarding the Udoka situation comes from a goodly number of NBA players and sports media talking heads thinking that Udoka was treated unfairly and that there is a double standard involved.

Udoka quickly going back to work mutes at least that part of the criticism.

And even among Boston fans, I think it is probably a mixed bag:
- Some think Udoka should have gotten a fine and still be coaching the Celtics.
- Some are satisfied that Udoka did some bad shit and a year-long suspension was right and proper.
- Some think that Udoka did something bad, but it is ok that he moves on quickly to coach somewhere else, as long as Boston gets compensation

The whole thing is a muddle. Without more facts and a clear narrative, I think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly. And it stays away as long as a lawsuit doesn't pop up or unless Ime starts doing the same shit in Brooklyn.

 

[Reverend]

This feels right.

I am struggling to figure out how the league could suspend Udoka for violating Celtics team policies, especially if the details around his Cs suspension are as tightly guarded as it appears. As EE notes, absent some sort of complaint, what is the basis for the league punishing Ime for being a terrible Celtics employee?

This is my thinking as well. Different franchises have different policies. As with other organizations, it’s possible some organizations have policies against intra-organization relationships of any kind while others do not. Some things the League is not OK with on any team, but others are team specific. Without knowing more details, there’s no way of knowing if what happened constitutes a legitimate league concern, image consciousness notwithstanding.

To be even more specific, it appears that whatever Udoka did, he didn’t get suspended the first time but inly after he was told to knock it off and did it (or something like it) again. So to some extent, he may have been suspended for disobeying a directive from his boss, which would be a team specific issue.

There’s definitely a sense that he engaged in shitty behavior, but not all shitty behavior is a league matter—I mean, at least that much we know, yeah?

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

If the Celtics outright fired him instead of suspending him for a year, would we expect for some reason that he couldn't be hired immediately if another team was willing to take the PR hit?

 

[mcpickl]

Without the facts being made public, and maybe even if they are (but are ambiguous enough), part of the "bad image" regarding the Udoka situation comes from a goodly number of NBA players and sports media talking heads thinking that Udoka was treated unfairly and that there is a double standard involved.

Udoka quickly going back to work mutes at least that part of the criticism.

And even among Boston fans, I think it is probably a mixed bag:
- Some think Udoka should have gotten a fine and still be coaching the Celtics.
- Some are satisfied that Udoka did some bad shit and a year-long suspension was right and proper.
- Some think that Udoka did something bad, but it is ok that he moves on quickly to coach somewhere else, as long as Boston gets compensation

The whole thing is a muddle. Without more facts and a clear narrative, I think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly. And it stays away as long as a lawsuit doesn't pop up or unless Ime starts doing the same shit in Brooklyn.

This is wild to me.

More facts are not going to be made public, because the Celtics/NBA are not going to expose the victim of the harassment to more scrutiny. I just don't understand the demand for more facts. Do people think the Celtics just suspended their coach that they wanted to coach the team for something insignificant? What facts would satisfy you?

The goodly number of players and sports media talking heads thinking that Udoka was treated unfairly just aren't thinking. They just ate up Woj first report and haven't done any thinking since.

Thinking about it for more than ten seconds, for the Celtics to suspend a guy that they obviously wanted to coach their contender for a full season (and really just a placeholder for a firing), it's fairly obvious something considerably worse than a consensual relationship happened.

If you really think "Without more facts and a clear narrative, I think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly.", I'd suggest asking any woman you know what they think about the situation.

I'd bet they wouldn't think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly at all.

Also, do some Boston fans think Udoka should have gotten a fine and still be coaching the Celtics? That really sucks if true.

 

[Reverend]

This is wild to me.

More facts are not going to be made public, because the Celtics/NBA are not going to expose the victim of the harassment to more scrutiny. I just don't understand the demand for more facts. Do people think the Celtics just suspended their coach that they wanted to coach the team for something insignificant? What facts would satisfy you?

The goodly number of players and sports media talking heads thinking that Udoka was treated unfairly just aren't thinking. They just ate up Woj first report and haven't done any thinking since.

Thinking about it for more than ten seconds, for the Celtics to suspend a guy that they obviously wanted to coach their contender for a full season (and really just a placeholder for a firing), it's fairly obvious something considerably worse than a consensual relationship happened.

If you really think "Without more facts and a clear narrative, I think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly.", I'd suggest asking any woman you know what they think about the situation.

I'd bet they wouldn't think any hit to the NBA's image goes away quickly at all.

Also, do some Boston fans think Udoka should have gotten a fine and still be coaching the Celtics? That really sucks if true.

I don’t think @EvilEmpire was saying that he thought we should get more facts. Just straight analysis of the situation and why things are operating as they have been.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I don’t think @EvilEmpire was saying that he thought we should get more facts. Just straight analysis of the situation and why things are operating as they have been.

This is exactly right.

 

[Gash Prex]

Did I miss something? This was allegedly a done deal a few days ago.

Kyrie being Kyrie delayed it? Or Nets re-thinking?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If the league doesn’t suspend Udoka, the implication/insinuation is that it was a Celtics specific offense and not a general offense that would be wrong no matter who he worked for. In my view, that would be a very bad look for the league.

What league rule did Udoka break? He broke team/organizational rules which is why this is who suspended him. I don’t expect Silver to get involved in this at all but I could be wrong.

 

[InstaFace]

Isn't there kind of an overriding "don't embarrass the league" rule, that applies not just to NBA players and coaches, but also frankly to people working for any employer, and every endorsed spokesperson for any sponsor?

If it's some hot-button issue that you've gotten yourself into trouble over, it's a PR matter, not just a discipline matter. If Kyrie was just speaking out about flat-earthism, he's called "quirky" and nobody cares.

 

[Smokey Joe]

What league rule did Udoka break? He broke team/organizational rules which is why this is who suspended him. I don’t expect Silver to get involved in this at all but I could be wrong.

I would be surprised if he wasn’t already involved.

 

[RorschachsMask]

View: https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1589439780500418560?s=20&t=GtEcK_NRcx2IlRW2EtisRQ

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I don’t know if it’s fan wishcasting. Honestly, I really don’t care if Udoka would coach the Nets tomorrow.

I think that the league has had a week of absolutely horrible PR. You have Kyrie and the movie, Josh Primo and the Spurs, and then the Miles Bridges incident being brought up again.

I might be wrong but for a league that is pretty conscious of its public image, it’s a pretty terrible look for one team to think a Coach has committed acts worthy of a year long suspension and for another to think it’s not worth any suspension whatsoever.

I think it’s as simple as Udoka broke Celtics organization team rules……he didn’t break Nets organization team rules. People get fired every day for violating their companies HR policy and hired by competitors the next week if they are top performers. I understand the NBA is in the public eye but I still don’t see where Silver gets involved with this. We should know soon enough.

I would be surprised if he wasn’t already involved.

He could be. After reading the post above mine it sounds like he may be. Either way I’m not going to lose any sleep over it but this could open up an ugly can of (legal) worms if he is.

 

[Devizier]

When you read stories about the owners trying to block the Ime hire and the earlier unsourced leak about unwanted messages, it kind of makes me think the Celtics are lying about “nothing criminal”. After all, sexual harassment is a crime.

 

[lovegtm]

When you read stories about the owners trying to block the Ime hire and the earlier unsourced leak about unwanted messages, it kind of makes me think the Celtics are lying about “nothing criminal”. After all, sexual harassment is a crime.

This looks a whole lot like the Nets didn't do their due diligence, did it after the leak, and are now thinking "oh fuck".

As mentioned above, the original story about Nets interest could also very well have been from Ime's people.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

When you read stories about the owners trying to block the Ime hire and the earlier unsourced leak about unwanted messages, it kind of makes me think the Celtics are lying about “nothing criminal”. After all, sexual harassment is a crime.

Did the Celtics really say "nothing criminal"? I know others have but I don't remember anything official coming out.

Sexual harassment without some kind of threat or assault may be illegal and create liability on the part of an employer but generally does not rise to the level of a crime. And even if technically crim8nal behaviour did occur, victims often don't want to press criminal charges because of the adverse publicity.

 

[Devizier]

Sexual harassment without some kind of threat or assault may be illegal and create liability on the part of an employer but generally does not rise to the level of a crime. And even if technically crim8nal behaviour did occur, victims often don't want to press criminal charges because of the adverse publicity.

I’m certainly aware of the latter. But the former is a worthwhile distinction. My point was essentially that the initial announcement seemed to point away from harassment but the ensuing behavior seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[bakahump]

Wouldnt Sexual Harassment need a Victim to want to press charges? If the Celtics (hopefully in good faith) said "You can press charges if you want and we will back you, but it will become public and impact your Marriage/Life/reputation (unfairly...). Or we can suspend him for the year and fire him in the off season. So You wont have to deal with him anymore on a D2D basis and we promise we will keep everything confidential."

If that happened wouldnt it be "Violated team rules" and not "Sexual Predator coach is facing legal action"?

Normally I would default to "Punish the creep" but if the Victims prefer a quieter solution....

 

[djbayko]

Wouldnt Sexual Harassment need a Victim to want to press charges? If the Celtics (hopefully in good faith) said "You can press charges if you want and we will back you, but it will become public and impact your Marriage/Life/reputation (unfairly...). Or we can suspend him for the year and fire him in the off season. So You wont have to deal with him anymore on a D2D basis and we promise we will keep everything confidential."

If that happened wouldnt it be "Violated team rules" and not "Sexual Predator coach is facing legal action"?

Normally I would default to "Punish the creep" but if the Victims prefer a quieter solution....

Laying out options like that seems like an incredibly dangerous game to me, even if your heart is in the right place, as it can be interpreted very differently. The Celtics decision on how to handle his employment and her decision on how to approach her legal avenues should be two mutually exclusive things.

 

[Van Everyman]

This looks a whole lot like the Nets didn't do their due diligence, did it after the leak, and are now thinking "oh fuck".

Lots of that this week.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Lots of that this week.

Almost seems like having money and power is no insulation against getting bitten in the ass by your own actions.

 

[bakahump]

Laying out options like that seems like an incredibly dangerous game to me, even if your heart is in the right place, as it can be interpreted very differently. The Celtics decision on how to handle his employment and her decision on how to approach her legal avenues should be two mutually exclusive things.

Very Fair.

 

[NomarsFool]

I think it’s as simple as Udoka broke Celtics organization team rules……he didn’t break Nets organization team rules. People get fired every day for violating their companies HR policy and hired by competitors the next week if they are top performers.

#1) While the NBA is made up of competitors, it's also a league of collective interests. Microsoft firing someone and then being hired by Google is quite different.

#2) I would say the vast majority of times when people are fired, their next employer knows nothing of what got them fired. I happen to know of somebody who was fired for embezzlement, went to another company, was fired again for the same reason, and then ended up at a third company.

People keep talking about Ime's actions like he broke some silly company rule like filling out his timesheet incorrectly. We don't know the details, of course, but there certainly seems to be a preponderence of evidence that it was bad behaviour, and he deserved the punishment that he got, and that the "suspension" was just to bide time until they could work out the legal/financial ramifications of getting rid of the guy.

 

[Auger34]

View: https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1589439780500418560?s=20&t=GtEcK_NRcx2IlRW2EtisRQ

This is exactly what I was talking about/referring to in my post above.

Maybe it didn’t take the form of a direct suspension but you’re completely kidding yourself if you dont think Tsai and the Nets were “strongly encouraged” to wait on hiring Ime by the league

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I imagine someone at the Nets finally was smart enough to start to try to imagine the press conference.

“Yes, we know he did something bad enough to violate Celtics policy but we are ok and it isn’t a violation of Nets policy. We can’t say more.”

Good luck with that. This does not seem like a wise stance right now for a team reeling from having an unrepentant antisemite on the floor.

Why isn’t it a violation of Nets policy? Not bad conduct? Or you don’t give a shit about women so long as they work for someone else? Ime, what did you do?

Not great answers to these questions and no real way to look good when hiding behind “we can’t answer, trust us.” The Nets already are under the microscope. Timing is not good.

Plus, you don’t know what you don’t know. Assuming there is a victim out there, perhaps seeing him get a gig quickly is a bridge too far and she decides that she no longer wants to be quiet.

 

[lexrageorge]

If not for the Kyrie mess, the Nets could easily get away with statements like:

"We discussed Ime's past behavior with both him and the Boston Celtics leadership. We made it clear, that like Boston, we consider his behavior unacceptable for the workplace. He acknowledged that and promised that we would not see a repeat of his prior behavior, and plans to treat all employees of the organization will the utmost of respect. We accept his statements and expect to hold him to those behavioral standards and workplace policies without exception. We look forward to seeing him behind the bench shortly"

But, everything Kyrie touches...,

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

If not for the Kyrie mess, the Nets could easily get away with statements like:

"We discussed Ime's past behavior with both him and the Boston Celtics leadership. We made it clear, that like Boston, we consider his behavior unacceptable for the workplace. He acknowledged that and promised that we would not see a repeat of his prior behavior, and plans to treat all employees of the organization will the utmost of respect. We accept his statements and expect to hold him to those behavioral standards and workplace policies without exception. We look forward to seeing him behind the bench shortly"

But, everything Kyrie touches...,

Mr.Tsai - didn't Ime also make the same promise when the Celtics first confronted him about his behavior as some have reported? What makes you think he'll stick to his promise this time?

 

[lexrageorge]

Mr.Tsai - didn't Ime also make the same promise when the Celtics first confronted him about his behavior? What makes you think he'll stick to his promise this time?

Easily answered via the "Ime has apologized and deserves a second chance" narrative.

 

[the moops]

Adrian Wojnarowski

@wojespn


The Nets are making Jacque Vaughn head coach.

 

[ifmanis5]

Wait, what?

 

[Auger34]

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn


The Nets are making Jacque Vaughn head coach.

Yeah, Silver definitely talked to Tsai. I also think Woj was carrying water for Ime and made the deal seem closer than it was

 

[nattysez]

Logic prevails. JV earned a shot at HC, so it's not a desperation move to elevate him.

 

[Auger34]

If not for the Kyrie mess, the Nets could easily get away with statements like:

"We discussed Ime's past behavior with both him and the Boston Celtics leadership. We made it clear, that like Boston, we consider his behavior unacceptable for the workplace. He acknowledged that and promised that we would not see a repeat of his prior behavior, and plans to treat all employees of the organization will the utmost of respect. We accept his statements and expect to hold him to those behavioral standards and workplace policies without exception. We look forward to seeing him behind the bench shortly"

But, everything Kyrie touches...,

Exactly.

If Kyrie doesn’t post that video link they can come out and use the “second chance” angle and talk about how they did their due diligence without really answering what he did or their investigation.

Once Kyrie posted that video and the way they completely fucked up the situation after the Nets org lost the ability to do that.

 

[Gash Prex]

Ime clearly has strong connections with the national NBA writers

I called this a few days ago when the announcement was not within the 24-48 hours initially discussed.

Should make the Celtics players happy - Celtics didn't stand in the way for Ime but he is still not coaching a rival.

 

[TripleOT]

It would’ve been difficult for Udoka to coach that next team the way he needs to coach a team, with his off court history with the Celtics hanging over his head. He would have had to face a non-compliant, competitive media on a daily basis, and no longer has any creditably to talk about things like accountability and selflessness.
Too bad, because his style of calling out players would have been catnip to the New York media

If he ever gets another HC job again, it first might take a successful stint as an assistant for a few seasons.

 

[ifmanis5]

It looks bad for Ime that he got passed over like this but likely good in the long run. He was a terrible fit for this very dysfunctional team and organization. He'll be better off elsewhere most likely.

 

[radsoxfan]

Feels like the best thing is a full season suspension and then re-assess after the season. I’m sure Silver lobbied for that pretty hard.

Nets could still hire Ime in the off-season, I doubt they’re committing huge years/$ to Vaughn.

 

[DJnVa]

Is Udoka under any sort of media "ban" where he can't talk to someone that we know of? I'm surprised there hasn't been interview with anyone--hell, even on a podcast of some sympathetic host,

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Is Udoka under any sort of media "ban" where he can't talk to someone that we know of? I'm surprised there hasn't been interview with anyone--hell, even on a podcast of some sympathetic host,

More likely under his “attorney ban.”

 

[Justthetippett]

Ime has to go away to come back. This outcome makes more sense and I agree with others that it likely benefits him in the long run as well. If he takes his medicine he’ll have opportunities next year (assuming no more awful details come to light). As for the Nets, they are stepping in it right and left and the last thing they needed was another distraction.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

The Celtics played this one correctly. As we have seen in comments from players like Smart and Brown, they still like Ime and all things equal would have wanted him to continue coaching them. I think "not standing in his way" was the right public stance for the organization to take, given the players' feelings. They would not have wanted Ime to show up coaching Brooklyn,but they would have wanted even less for the Celtics organization to be keeping Ime out of the league.

 

[67YAZ]

The Celtics played this one correctly. As we have seen in comments from players like Smart and Brown, they still like Ime and all things equal would have wanted him to continue coaching them. I think "not standing in his way" was the right public stance for the organization to take, given the players' feelings. They would not have wanted Ime to show up coaching Brooklyn,but they would have wanted even less for the Celtics organization to be keeping Ime out of the league.

Some of Smart’s initial comments were, to paraphrase, how can Ime’s actions be so bad that he can’t coach us but not so bad that another team will hire him 6 weeks later?

This ordeal puts that line of thinking to bed. Whatever Ime did is bad enough to keep him out of a job right now. It’s not just a Brad or Wyc thing.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Some of Smart’s initial comments were, to paraphrase, how can Ime’s actions be so bad that he can’t coach us but not so bad that another team will hire him 6 weeks later?

This ordeal puts that line of thinking to bed. Whatever Ime did is bad enough to keep him out of a job right now. It’s not just a Brad or Wyc thing.

Yes, this too.

 

[InstaFace]

man am I glad I spent so much time arguing about trade compensation for something that never happened.

 

[TripleOT]

After going 2-6 with Kyrie, Brooklyn is 3-1 without him, and the one loss was by one bucket in Dallas. The wins were against Washington, Charlotte, and the Knicks, including two blowouts. They play the four West Coast teams in the next six days, and it will be interesting to see if they can win the non-Laker games.

 

[chilidawg]

Another win over the LAC tonight, gonna be interesting when they realize they are a better team without KI.

 

[ElUno20]

Another win over the LAC tonight, gonna be interesting when they realize they are a better team without KI.

Durant is such a dog defensively. If they can get him any help, they may salvage this season into an ok playoff run

 

[Euclis20]

Also interesting that it's another win with Simmons coming off the bench. He didn't exactly play well (2 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists and 4 fouls in 14 minutes), but odd to see that they aren't bothering to feed him lots of minutes.

 

[oumbi]

Also interesting that it's another win with Simmons coming off the bench. He didn't exactly play well (2 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists and 4 fouls in 14 minutes), but odd to see that they aren't bothering to feed him lots of minutes.

Which works out to cost the Nets about $177,000 per point.

 

[The Raccoon]

Which works out to cost the Nets about $177,000 per point.

Where does this rank in the Best Value Contracts in the NBA ? 0.1 percentile?