Spurs 22/23: So, do we have a manager?

Zososoxfan

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Lineup for SHU FA Cup match is out:

Forster
Sanchez-Dier-Davies
Porro-Hoj-Sarr-Perisic
Lucas-Richy-Son

Pretty happy with that. The fact that the coaching staff thinks Lucas is a fit for the RW spot is baffling, but he's probably been a pretty good team player about his complete disappearance from the field, and against a low-level EPL side (I know SHU is in the Championship, but they're likely getting promoted) Lucas' dribbling skills may just work fine. I hope we get a lead and Danjuma comes on for Richy for the last 30 minutes.

Let's get 'em, COYS!!
 

DJnVa

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The full Spurs experience in the last few weeks.

Whatever---a few less games on the schedule.
 

Zososoxfan

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We have to recognize that the club likely doesn't give much of a shit about the domestic cups, as they really don't bring in much cash compared to EPL and UCL. That said, this was a great opportunity to compete for a trophy and even Spurs' B squad should've beaten the Blades yesterday. But such a heavily rotated side rarely plays well. The worst part is that the Blades apparently rotated too!! FML
 

DJnVa

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How do we line up with Poch's 4-2-3-1?

Forster
Davies-Dier/Lenglet-Romero-Emerson
Skipp-Hoj
Son-Deki(?)-Porro
Kane

I'm ready for this.
Well, by the time Poch is (hopefully) setting lineups, I doubt Forster is our keeper. Might not be Lloris either.

Is Richarlison a sunk cost that we try to sell for you or is he a supersub in the above lineup and getting starts in rotation?
 

Zososoxfan

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Well, by the time Poch is (hopefully) setting lineups, I doubt Forster is our keeper. Might not be Lloris either.

Is Richarlison a sunk cost that we try to sell for you or is he a supersub in the above lineup and getting starts in rotation?
To me he's a nose ahead of Son on form at the moment, but we know Son has a higher ceiling so I think you try to activate Son first before giving Richy the shirt. Richy's also the primary backup to both Kane and Son. No way he should be considered a sunk cost yet IMO.
 

Kliq

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Absolutely brutal game to watch. Unable to score a single goal over 180 minutes against a Milan team that has been leaking goals in Serie A. Milan offered very little on offense in this game and it didn't matter, Spurs could generate a quality chance. Romero playing just the dumbest fucking football; picking up a dumb yellow card in the first 15 minutes and then picking up an equally dumb yellow right as Spurs looked prime to make a push into drawing the game level. Announcers crushing Spurs for almost the entire game and they deserved it.
 

Zososoxfan

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At this point, the question is whether to keep Antonio through the remainder of the season or give him the sack now. And my answer depends on whether Poch is coming back or not. If Poch, give Conte the sack now to hopefully give the players/club a 'new manager' bounce, but more importantly let him assess the players for the summer transfer window. If Poch isn't the answer, let Antonio finish so we can actually try to grab a manager in demand.

I'm oddly zen about Spurs right now. Once you hit the low you fear, it becomes easier to calmly start to think about how to dig out, as opposed to grasping for the exit again and again.
 

fletcherpost

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The boys on Talksport are already saying Conte out, Poch in. And now they're playing the Spurs are on their way to Wembley song. Quality trolling.

I think Conte has to go. I'm used to Spurs being an entertaining side, even if they don't win things, they were a good watch.
 

Kliq

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What if, and hang in there with me for a second, but Spurs got a new manager with fresh ideas and not a guy the team already quit on once.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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The boys on Talksport are already saying Conte out, Poch in. And now they're playing the Spurs are on their way to Wembley song. Quality trolling.

I think Conte has to go. I'm used to Spurs being an entertaining side, even if they don't win things, they were a good watch.
Soccer is such a game of feel. Things look pretty reasonable on the table, but the Spurs fan mood is near apocalyptic and I get it. The matches are usually pretty bad to watch, the club is chugging through managers and buying players like Cheaper Chelsea, while goddamn Arsenal took a few years to rebuild an attacking side of fun young players and are now challenging for the title.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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What if, and hang in there with me for a second, but Spurs got a new manager with fresh ideas and not a guy the team already quit on once.
Relatively few members of this team were there to quit on him, but on the other hand we will apparently never remove any of them from the squad, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My crazy idea is the one where Spurs invest in an analytics and scouting department larger than one overcaffeinated financial criminal such that they then have a unified approach to buying players and hiring managers that all fits together.
 

DJnVa

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I don't think Poch quit, and I would welcome him back. They clearly had some disagreements and it blew up, but he obviously still loves the club.

Do it now. I'm tired of Conte's "We can't do it in 10 months. 12 months. 14 months." Well then, commit to more or move tf on.

EDIT: This lists Luis Enrique as the favorite

Per this article, Paratici is compiling the list, which makes Poch less likely.

Tottenham compile shortlist to replace Antonio Conte – with Luis Enrique a lead contender - The Athletic

Others mentioned: Oliver Glasner, Ruben Amorim, Luciana Spalletti
 
Last edited:

Kliq

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People clamoring for Poch's return just feels desperate, like trying to go back into a time machine so you don't break up with your ex-girlfriend. The club needs to move on from Poch's identity.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think Spurs need a hard reset organizationally. They need to hire a group of footballing executives, allow them to evaluate the football operations of the club with fresh eyes, including choosing the next manager, and collectively figure out a governance structure similar to that at other clubs where Levy continues to be involved on the business end but has limited influence over the footballing decisions beyond some general budget setting considerations.

For me, hiring Poch will be a mistake. I'm not sure he is really the most tactically progressive manager - he may like the high press out of possession but he has never impressed that much in terms of how his teams play in possession. More importantly, hiring Poch is a strategy for changing the manager but nothing else about the club and continues a pattern of Levy repetitively opting for short-term decisions that will quell fan discontent or create some good headlines for a while but don't address fundamental problems.

The good side for Spurs fans is that the house might need a big renovation but the bones are good - impressive revenue streams, great stadium, great training and academy facilities, and at least 5-6 younger players that could be building blocks for an exciting new side. The right manager and a couple good transfer windows and the side could be really lively.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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I think Spurs need a hard reset organizationally. They need to hire a group of footballing executives, allow them to evaluate the football operations of the club with fresh eyes, including choosing the next manager, and collectively figure out a governance structure similar to that at other clubs where Levy continues to be involved on the business end but has limited influence over the footballing decisions beyond some general budget setting considerations.
This is it in a nutshell. Even Levy knows this a bit and inched towards that direction with Paratici, but Spurs need a whole relatively stable front office department, not just one Italian criminal.
 

DJnVa

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People clamoring for Poch's return just feels desperate, like trying to go back into a time machine so you don't break up with your ex-girlfriend. The club needs to move on from Poch's identity.
His identity was attacking and fun football. We've CLEARLY moved on from that.




I think Spurs need a hard reset organizationally. They need to hire a group of footballing executives, allow them to evaluate the football operations of the club with fresh eyes, including choosing the next manager, and collectively figure out a governance structure similar to that at other clubs where Levy continues to be involved on the business end but has limited influence over the footballing decisions beyond some general budget setting considerations.
Sure, but that would likely entail a long hiring process for manager and that won't work.
 

scott bankheadcase

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His identity was attacking and fun football. We've CLEARLY moved on from that.

This I so agree with. I’d welcome Poch back but if it’s not him we need a new progressive thinker.

Spurs lost their overall identity, which didn’t originate with Poch. Jose, Nuno and Conte all play different versions of non-Spurs football. If anything the team needs their identity back.

Like fletch said in the other thread, at least Spurs used to be known as a good watch. Now, that didn’t win much so I understand trying something different, but when that also doesn’t work, go back to you team identity.
 

coremiller

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I think Spurs need a hard reset organizationally. They need to hire a group of footballing executives, allow them to evaluate the football operations of the club with fresh eyes, including choosing the next manager, and collectively figure out a governance structure similar to that at other clubs where Levy continues to be involved on the business end but has limited influence over the footballing decisions beyond some general budget setting considerations.

For me, hiring Poch will be a mistake. I'm not sure he is really the most tactically progressive manager - he may like the high press out of possession but he has never impressed that much in terms of how his teams play in possession. More importantly, hiring Poch is a strategy for changing the manager but nothing else about the club and continues a pattern of Levy repetitively opting for short-term decisions that will quell fan discontent or create some good headlines for a while but don't address fundamental problems.

The good side for Spurs fans is that the house might need a big renovation but the bones are good - impressive revenue streams, great stadium, great training and academy facilities, and at least 5-6 younger players that could be building blocks for an exciting new side. The right manager and a couple good transfer windows and the side could be really lively.
Agree. The big question is whether Levy's ego will allow him to cede that much control. So far signs point to no.

The problem with hiring Poch is not the hire itself per se---I think he'd be an improvement on the status quo----but the lack of strategic vision it signifies.
 

Kliq

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Agree. The big question is whether Levy's ego will allow him to cede that much control. So far signs point to no.

The problem with hiring Poch is not the hire itself per se---I think he'd be an improvement on the status quo----but the lack of strategic vision it signifies.
The bold part is what bothers me about re-hiring Poch. Poch would maybe be able to get more results out of this roster, but ever since Spurs fired Poch they have been lurching from one "quick-fix" manager to the next with extremely similar results. Re-hiring Poch just feels like a recycling of that strategy, as opposed to a real move to bring in a new manager and a new philosophy to team building. Also, I'm tired of the big name, arrogant coaches who give off the impression they are too good for the club. I don't hate Conte like I hated Jose, but his weird behavior around committing to the club has been off-putting.

I don't know if there is a big difference between "playing attacking, enjoyable football" and being good. Spurs are a bore largely because they struggle to score goals because they are not very good. In the first half of the season, when they were better and scoring a lot, they were not a bore at all. I don't really care if they find someone to play SPURS brand of football, they need to find someone who can earn sustainable results with the team--and eventually that involves playing on the front foot and scoring goals.
 

OCST

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I think Spurs need a hard reset organizationally. They need to hire a group of footballing executives, allow them to evaluate the football operations of the club with fresh eyes, including choosing the next manager, and collectively figure out a governance structure similar to that at other clubs where Levy continues to be involved on the business end but has limited influence over the footballing decisions beyond some general budget setting considerations.

For me, hiring Poch will be a mistake. I'm not sure he is really the most tactically progressive manager - he may like the high press out of possession but he has never impressed that much in terms of how his teams play in possession. More importantly, hiring Poch is a strategy for changing the manager but nothing else about the club and continues a pattern of Levy repetitively opting for short-term decisions that will quell fan discontent or create some good headlines for a while but don't address fundamental problems.

The good side for Spurs fans is that the house might need a big renovation but the bones are good - impressive revenue streams, great stadium, great training and academy facilities, and at least 5-6 younger players that could be building blocks for an exciting new side. The right manager and a couple good transfer windows and the side could be really lively.
Are the kids that good though? Are they as good as (and are there as many as) Arsenals kids? Asking not to disagree, genuinely don’t know.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Are the kids that good though? Are they as good as (and are there as many as) Arsenals kids? Asking not to disagree, genuinely don’t know.
I don't think Tottenham has the same elite teenage talent that Arsenal had when Arteta first arrived at the club - Saka, Martinelli, and Saliba were all 18 plus other academy kids like Smith-Rowe, Nketiah, and Nelson who would become lesser contributors were 19-20. But Spurs definitely has better players in the early to mid 20s pre-prime-to-early-prime bracket than Arsenal had at that point. Kulusevski, Romero, and Bentancur all profile as cornerstone starters on the next team and players like Porro, Udogie, and Sarr could also reach that level. It's not a massive wealth of talent but its enough that if you get a couple transfer windows right all of a sudden you could have a really good team.

I think the equally important thing for Tottenham is that they need to ruthlessly turn over the rest of the roster, which requires being willing to take losses on players to move them on if necessary and open up squad space and room on the wage bill for new faces. There were 22 different age 21+ players who made league appearances for Arsenal in Arteta's first year and the only ones left are Xhaka, Tierney, and Holding (a few like Pepe are on loan, but never coming back in any meaningful capacity). Spurs need that kind of ruthless culling. Levy tends to refuse to sell players unless unrealistic price tags get met and that's just not going to work in this situation.
 

Kliq

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Skipp has probably been their best homegrown young player this season. There is also Djed Spence who we haven't seen any of.

I'm not sold on Romero, who has been a huge liability despite immense talent.
 

DJnVa

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Skipp has probably been their best homegrown young player this season. There is also Djed Spence who we haven't seen any of.

I'm not sold on Romero, who has been a huge liability despite immense talent.
Yeah, the dude can play soccer but has 7 yellows and red over his last 12 games. He's young and needs to learn when and where--some of his yellows are in places where there's no danger.
 

Zososoxfan

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Skipp has probably been their best homegrown young player this season. There is also Djed Spence who we haven't seen any of.

I'm not sold on Romero, who has been a huge liability despite immense talent.
Yeah, the dude can play soccer but has 7 yellows and red over his last 12 games. He's young and needs to learn when and where--some of his yellows are in places where there's no danger.
Romero is the type of defender you build a defense around, in the mold of a VVD. He made Otamendi and Argentina's backline look good for crying out loud! That said, he would certainly benefit from a level-headed more conservative partner, and perhaps even more importantly someone who can be the leader of the backline. That leadership may come with time for Romero, but ultimately I think his insanely aggressive approach means he can't also be the organizer.

Skipp to me looks like a bona fide elite EPL mid. We'll have to see how he looks next to Ben10, but those two are very promising and about to hit their primes. Other players fitting that description include Porro, Udogie, Emerson (still have a lot of love for him), Kulu (terrible form lately notwithstanding), Bissouma, and Richarlison. I know the Richy inclusion is probably controversial, but he's still only 25 and his workrate and size alone mean he will always be a useful striker, even if his finishing ebbs and flows. If the club decide to blow it up and sell Kane, I would be OK handing the shirt to Richy for a real go.

I just named 9 players, and while I acknowledge that perhaps the 3 FBs/WBs can't be played together, and the future quality of nearly all of them can't be confirmed, that is a solid foundation to build on.

Moreover, I don't recall offhand if there are buy options, but the following players are out on loan this season:
Tanguy (26)
GLC (26)
Reguilon (26)
Spence (22)
Gil (22)

Hell, even Rodon (25) has started 20 matches for 5th place Rennes.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Very calm from Son which has not been his MO this season. If he goes on a heater to close the campaign out my weekends will be a lot more fun for the next few months.
 

Zososoxfan

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With those pesky cup competitions no longer an issue, I expect Conte to whip this side into shape and finish the season strong. It doesn't hurt that the next few fixtures are forgiving (current table position following the opponent):

03/18 - @Southampton, 20
04/03 - @Everton, 15
04/08 - Brighton, 7
04/15 - Bournemouth, 18

04/23 - @Newcastle, 5
04/27 - MAN U, 3
04/30 - @Liverpool, 6

05/06 - Palace, 12
05/13 - @Villa, 11
05/20 - Brentford, 9
05/28 - @Leeds, 19

So the season kind of breaks down into 3 chunks--3/4 games against bottom table sides and a midtable one, a rough 3-game stretch that will be crucial to finishing place (with the MAN U match midweek on a Thursday), and the home stretch against 3 midtable sides and a relegation candidate. The best thing that could happen (other than collecting points) is for Leeds to get relegated before MW 38 and for all the midtable sides we're playing in May to have nothing to play for.

Regardless, I hope Antonio stays thru the end of the season, we qualify for UCL, and the club and manager amicably part ways following the season. The key for now is keeping Perisic stapled to the bench, and playing Davies/inverted Emerson at LWB until Sess is healthy (if ever).
 

DJnVa

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We all saw what Conte said yesterday.

The fact that he's still employed is embarrassing (even if he's mostly right).
 

SocrManiac

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I wonder if he thought he could further underscore the point about Levy’s tight pockets by proving he wouldn’t be bought out.
 

Zososoxfan

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Just watched it and yeah, he speaks some hard truths but he's also been a poor manager this season. HE has some legit excuses, but he still needs to take more of the blame than he did there. Moreover, this separation between him and the club is bullshit--the club's failure is his failure and vice versa.
 

SocrManiac

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The timing here is going to be critical. Kane is going to want out after this season. If the club is left in this stalemate but without Sir Harry, the fans are going to get really ugly.
 

DJnVa

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The timing here is going to be critical. Kane is going to want out after this season. If the club is left in this stalemate but without Sir Harry, the fans are going to get really ugly.
Kane will want out depending on the hire.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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Kane will want out depending on the hire.
What hire is going to make him think he can win something while at Spurs? He's lived through Poch, Maurinho and Conte now without getting particularly close. I don't see anyway it's just a change in manager to get them over the line and have to think he's thinking the same.
 

OCST

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Where does he go? Madrid? City has Haaland. Newcastle maybe? Chelsea’s a bigger mess than Spurs. Would Bayern want him?
 

Mighty Joe Young

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We all saw what Conte said yesterday.

The fact that he's still employed is embarrassing (even if he's mostly right).
Give it a couple of days … the have the international break , plus needing time to get an interim manager. Maybe they already have the next manager lined up so who knows. I can’t conceive of him staying/being allowed to stay after that rant.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Korean press is saying Kim Minjae has rejected Spurs' overtures for a transfer.

Perhaps Sonny told him the tempest is too much at the White Hart Lane.
 

Kliq

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If they qualify for the UCL and they bring in a manager Kane really likes, they have a chance to retain him. He's very loyal (some would say too loyal) to Spurs and will give them a chance to sell him on a better future. But if he does leave, United is the obvious destination. I also think he wants to stay in the EPL because Shearer's record is really important to him.
 

Zososoxfan

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Give it a couple of days … the have the international break , plus needing time to get an interim manager. Maybe they already have the next manager lined up so who knows. I can’t conceive of him staying/being allowed to stay after that rant.
Yeah, he'll be gone this week. But they really should do it ASAP--every day players and club staff have to be around this toxic environment is a bad day.

The rumor the last few weeks has been Man Utd.
Have to think United would be happy to pay 50-60M for what amounts to 1 season of Arry (i.e., he's out of contract in summer '24).
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Yeah, he'll be gone this week. But they really should do it ASAP--every day players and club staff have to be around this toxic environment is a bad day.



Have to think United would be happy to pay 50-60M for what amounts to 1 season of Arry (i.e., he's out of contract in summer '24).
They would, but at least the latest random internet scuttlebutt I saw was Levy will only accept 100M, all up front, which I find plausible given his whole general deal.

I look forwards to a rich full spring and summer of articles rehashing Ferguson complaining about Levy, floating ludicrous player swaps involving like 30M and Lindelof and McTominay and generally writing as if United is owed Kane.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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IMO, there's a very good chance Kane just stays at Spurs, runs down his deal, and decides what to do in summer 2024.

United is the only club in England that seems like a possible destination but I don't think it'll be easy for Levy and the current United leadership to make a deal. Every bone in Levy's body will tell him to put on a huge initial price tag and then wait it out all summer to see if United cave or get closer to that number. But on the United side they may be lukewarm on Kane to begin with because they have a number of other key 30+ year old players and I think ETH will be eager to get a new striker in early rather than pursue a saga that could draw out all summer. United also have some legitimate constraints with the new model of FFP, largely because they have a number of absolutely monster FFP numbers (ie, players like Sancho costing 30m+ per year in terms of wages/amortized transfer fee) on their books. You're not going to give Kane more than a 4 year deal so if you pay 80m in a transfer fee plus the 350-400k per week he will surely demand then you are looking at close to 40m per year in the FFP calculation.
 

Zososoxfan

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IMO, there's a very good chance Kane just stays at Spurs, runs down his deal, and decides what to do in summer 2024.

United is the only club in England that seems like a possible destination but I don't think it'll be easy for Levy and the current United leadership to make a deal. Every bone in Levy's body will tell him to put on a huge initial price tag and then wait it out all summer to see if United cave or get closer to that number. But on the United side they may be lukewarm on Kane to begin with because they have a number of other key 30+ year old players and I think ETH will be eager to get a new striker in early rather than pursue a saga that could draw out all summer. United also have some legitimate constraints with the new model of FFP, largely because they have a number of absolutely monster FFP numbers (ie, players like Sancho costing 30m+ per year in terms of wages/amortized transfer fee) on their books. You're not going to give Kane more than a 4 year deal so if you pay 80m in a transfer fee plus the 350-400k per week he will surely demand then you are looking at close to 40m per year in the FFP calculation.
All very possible, but if Spurs do decide to go with a younger manager building a project around the young talent, I could see Kane firing his way out of town to not waste another year of his prime. Moreover, finishing top 4 this year probably makes a huge difference as well. And Levy would probably be dumb to reject 60-90M only to lose him for nothing the following summer. The calculation should be straightforward, in that Kane gives the club a much better chance to make top 4, so his financial impact is tangible, even if his intangible value is harder to peg down. I did some back of the envelope math and now I feel very different about how Spurs and Levy should value Kane, and really other key players (read: Son) as well.

EPL prize money last season was approx. £37M for 4th place, and goes down about £2M for each spot. So if you think Kane is worth 5 spots in the table (to make it easy), the delta there is £10M.

Qualifying for UCL last season was worth €16M. Each group stage win is worth an additional €2.8M (rounding to 3), group draws approx. €1M, and progressing to KOs is another €10M. So Spurs made €37M in prize money from UCL (16 (top 4) + 9 (3 wins) + 2 (draws) + 10 (KOs)). That does not include ticket revenue from 4 matches, which some quick Google Fu indicates is approx. £6M--no idea what their nut is, so call it £2M/match (so an additional £8M). 37 + 9 (GBP > Euros) = 46.

So assuming that Kane contributes significantly to Spurs finishing top 4 and progressing from the group stage, he is worth at least some part of €46M (£39M) + £10M--call it an even £50M just for ease. Moreover, this prize money takes on extra importance when you consider that it's bona fide revenue for FFP purposes (presumably), and allows the club to spend more in theory (lol). With that information, combined with Kane being homegrown, English, how important he is to the success of the team (not to mention how important he is to supporters), the lowest I would even consider before letting him go is ~£80M. So very much higher than the £50-60M I was previously considering, but also probably not waiting around for that £100M offer, especially if the player is agitating for the move.

Some sources:

View: https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1470290561856946179


https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-news/report-reveals-how-much-tottenham-bring-in-on-average-every-home-game/

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/how-much-money-do-football-clubs-make-from-shirt-sales/gv14e9wc0vny1vtyr0rxqqan5

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/premier-league-prize-money-champions-full-table/ukfu5xbuzeogqcpvg0plkhe0