Spurs 22/23: So, do we have a manager?

scott bankheadcase

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I wonder if the reason Conte isn't already gone is if Levy is conferring with Kane.

There's reports out a week or so ago that Spurs were pushing a new contract with Kane having consulting power over coaching changes.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I did some back of the envelope math and now I feel very different about how Spurs and Levy should value Kane, and really other key players (read: Son) as well.
One quibble is that Kane doesn't guarantee CL and the counterfactual scenario in which Levy sells Kane assumedly involves using some or all of the transfer fee and wage space to buy other players. It's going to be near impossible to replace Kane with a player of the same quality but you may end up with 75% of the production or something.

On the countervailing side, there is probably also a big PR/marketing component to this for Levy. Kane is one of the most marketable players in the world, both within England and outside. I think Levy probably is thinking about how losing Kane might impact future negotiations over commercial deals, etc. In the end, the biggest thing for commercial revenue is to field a winning team but I can see him hung up on the idea that the club can't afford to lose Kane.

Broadly speaking, when these mega deals happen its usually a situation where, despite public posturing, there is a willing seller and a willing buyer and a set of agents working on the deal for months and months even before the summer transfer window opens. I'm skeptical that this will be the case here.
 

Kliq

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One quibble is that Kane doesn't guarantee CL and the counterfactual scenario in which Levy sells Kane assumedly involves using some or all of the transfer fee and wage space to buy other players. It's going to be near impossible to replace Kane with a player of the same quality but you may end up with 75% of the production or something.

On the countervailing side, there is probably also a big PR/marketing component to this for Levy. Kane is one of the most marketable players in the world, both within England and outside. I think Levy probably is thinking about how losing Kane might impact future negotiations over commercial deals, etc. In the end, the biggest thing for commercial revenue is to field a winning team but I can see him hung up on the idea that the club can't afford to lose Kane.

Broadly speaking, when these mega deals happen its usually a situation where, despite public posturing, there is a willing seller and a willing buyer and a set of agents working on the deal for months and months even before the summer transfer window opens. I'm skeptical that this will be the case here.
This is a good point. I think the playing abilities plus marketability of both Kane and Son have done an incredible amount of work in elevating the Tottenham team and the brand as a serious, regular UCL side that can play with any of the biggest clubs in the world--something that didn't exist for a long time. One only has to look at Everton, a well-supported club with a rich history and has spent a lot on players, to see a much bleaker future for Tottenham post-Kane.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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This is a good point. I think the playing abilities plus marketability of both Kane and Son have done an incredible amount of work in elevating the Tottenham team and the brand as a serious, regular UCL side that can play with any of the biggest clubs in the world--something that didn't exist for a long time. One only has to look at Everton, a well-supported club with a rich history and has spent a lot on players, to see a much bleaker future for Tottenham post-Kane.
It’s (not) funny cause it’s true.
 

Zososoxfan

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Fully agreed. It's why a $100M price tag sounds unreasonable (from Levy's perspective) to me at first, but upon further consideration is probably close to what the real value is.
 

Kliq

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It’s (not) funny cause it’s true.
Think about it...remove the stellar play from Kane/Son over the last few years that carried the team through difficult periods and what do Spurs have? A team that has run through four managers in five years, spent a lot of money on players, many of whom ended up being busts, and a series of frustrating results. Sell Kane and Son and you get some money, but what makes you think Spurs will spend that money wisely? They also have to bring in a manager who won't immediately start complaining about everything and act like they have one foot out the door.
 

Gunfighter 09

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The answer at manager is real easy:

- Bring Dad back, sooner rather than later, unless he wants to wait till June and see his protege Mason get some more run
-Unless that's not what Kane wants, and then bring in that guy.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Think about it...remove the stellar play from Kane/Son over the last few years that carried the team through difficult periods and what do Spurs have? A team that has run through four managers in five years, spent a lot of money on players, many of whom ended up being busts, and a series of frustrating results. Sell Kane and Son and you get some money, but what makes you think Spurs will spend that money wisely? They also have to bring in a manager who won't immediately start complaining about everything and act like they have one foot out the door.

Agreed.

It’s simplistic to say that they both ”outperform their xG,” but it’s the plain truth that together and individually they consistently have produced without the supports in place that other elite players have had- steady coaching, good subs to spell them, a midfield capable of steady service etc.

Now Son is merely ordinary and it’s still good for fourth, but that’s largely because the league is so brutal this season- there are gatecrashers for the European spots, LFC and Chelsea are off the boil, and any side down to 20 is capable of taking points off even City and Arsenal. Spurs have kind of defaulted into fourth as the weaknesses of the sides around them have shown over the long haul - lack of depth and scoring punch for Newcastle recently, LFC looking old and frail, and Brentford/ Brighton/ Fulham not quite the complete package. But Kane and Son and Some Guys aren’t enough to win the PL, not when Son looks dull, Lloris has reached the end, the promised of Dele has fizzled, and the collection of defenders and mids has had some good to very good pieces over the years but not value for money and most of all not in service of any consistent philosophy.
 

Zososoxfan

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Agreed.

It’s simplistic to say that they both ”outperform their xG,” but it’s the plain truth that together and individually they consistently have produced without the supports in place that other elite players have had- steady coaching, good subs to spell them, a midfield capable of steady service etc.

Now Son is merely ordinary and it’s still good for fourth, but that’s largely because the league is so brutal this season- there are gatecrashers for the European spots, LFC and Chelsea are off the boil, and any side down to 20 is capable of taking points off even City and Arsenal. Spurs have kind of defaulted into fourth as the weaknesses of the sides around them have shown over the long haul - lack of depth and scoring punch for Newcastle recently, LFC looking old and frail, and Brentford/ Brighton/ Fulham not quite the complete package. But Kane and Son and Some Guys aren’t enough to win the PL, not when Son looks dull, Lloris has reached the end, the promised of Dele has fizzled, and the collection of defenders and mids has had some good to very good pieces over the years but not value for money and most of all not in service of any consistent philosophy.
We've kinda covered the relevant topics ad nauseam but the bolded is the key IMO. There's some real young talent in the squad (namely Romero, Ben10, Richy, and Kulu), but like you said, that's not enough to take top 4 convincingly even when paired with Kane and Son. Conte is surely gone at this point, but the club really do need to settle on a philosophy in order to stop throwing good money at the bad. While they did back Conte respectably (except in defense and keeper), a manager of his ilk is never going to stop making demands. Conte is probably the most petulant manager and publicly demanding re transfers in the world, but I don't think it would be materially different in terms of demands from Flick, Lucho, Ancelotti, Simeone, etc. Moreover, with those managers (with the possible exception of Ancelotti), like Conte they also have very specific player types in mind, and that's gotten us into tricky situations with player recruitment.

So if we believe (as I do) that Spurs are never going to be the type of club that spend big in every transfer window a la City, United, Chelsea, Newcastle, and to a lesser degree Liverpool, then they need a 'project' type of manager who can build towards a title challenge every 2-3 seasons, as opposed to a philosophy of challenging every season. More importantly though, Spurs need to find a manager who will play attack-minded football that will entertain, because ultimately that's what's most important to Spurs fans, all the better if they can do it at a high level.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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We've kinda covered the relevant topics ad nauseam but the bolded is the key IMO. There's some real young talent in the squad (namely Romero, Ben10, Richy, and Kulu), but like you said, that's not enough to take top 4 convincingly even when paired with Kane and Son. Conte is surely gone at this point, but the club really do need to settle on a philosophy in order to stop throwing good money at the bad. While they did back Conte respectably (except in defense and keeper), a manager of his ilk is never going to stop making demands. Conte is probably the most petulant manager and publicly demanding re transfers in the world, but I don't think it would be materially different in terms of demands from Flick, Lucho, Ancelotti, Simeone, etc. Moreover, with those managers (with the possible exception of Ancelotti), like Conte they also have very specific player types in mind, and that's gotten us into tricky situations with player recruitment.

So if we believe (as I do) that Spurs are never going to be the type of club that spend big in every transfer window a la City, United, Chelsea, Newcastle, and to a lesser degree Liverpool, then they need a 'project' type of manager who can build towards a title challenge every 2-3 seasons, as opposed to a philosophy of challenging every season. More importantly though, Spurs need to find a manager who will play attack-minded football that will entertain, because ultimately that's what's most important to Spurs fans, all the better if they can do it at a high level.
Are the fans patient enough for that, especially given how much it must hurt to see what Arsenal are doing?

Not a value-loaded question, no negative judgment of the fans. Asking from Everton experience.
 

Zososoxfan

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Are the fans patient enough for that, especially given how much it must hurt to see what Arsenal are doing?

Not a value-loaded question, no negative judgment of the fans. Asking from Everton experience.
This is one area where local fans and the rest possibly differ. The local supporters are paying the most expensive tickets in the EPL and the club has been acting like a megaclub is some ways, so the local fans are responding to that and raising the bar. As a fan supporting the club from thousands of miles away, I'm patient and want to be entertained (i.e., play attacking aesthetic football).
 

Kliq

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Who cares if they play attacking football? They need to win some fucking games and stop blowing leads. Spurs have scored 52 goals this season, comfortably good for third most in the league and 11 more than Man U, who is ahead of them in the table. I'd trade a few of those goals for better results, especially given they've conceded 40 goals, a number only beaten by clubs in the relegation battle. Spurs games are not boring, I don't get the complaints that they are not playing an appropriately Spurs style; they are scoring a lot of goals, letting in a lot of goals, and no lead is safe in either direction when they are involved.

I get it in the sense that attacking football=scoring=winning games, which is what the focus is.
 

Zososoxfan

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Who cares if they play attacking football? They need to win some fucking games and stop blowing leads. Spurs have scored 52 goals this season, comfortably good for third most in the league and 11 more than Man U, who is ahead of them in the table. I'd trade a few of those goals for better results, especially given they've conceded 40 goals, a number only beaten by clubs in the relegation battle. Spurs games are not boring, I don't get the complaints that they are not playing an appropriately Spurs style; they are scoring a lot of goals, letting in a lot of goals, and no lead is safe in either direction when they are involved.

I get it in the sense that attacking football=scoring=winning games, which is what the focus is.
I'm guessing you didn't catch the Milan matches, or the SHU one. They have scored a lot of goals this year, but against packed defenses they have really struggled. And moreover, a more possession-based approach might help shield this D more.
 

Kliq

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I'm guessing you didn't catch the Milan matches, or the SHU one. They have scored a lot of goals this year, but against packed defenses they have really struggled. And moreover, a more possession-based approach might help shield this D more.
I don't disagree; but I think what confuses me is there seems to be some implication that it's more important that Spurs be entertaining and play attacking football than it is to win. The Sheffield United came and the Milan game sucked because Spurs lost; obviously they didn't score and that needs to be addressed, but if they had won a 1-0 game where they had tight control of match, I don't think anybody would have any problem with Conte's approach.

Conte and certainly Mourinho failed because their defense-first tactics failed to get results. When it worked, like how both of them have been able to consistently outflank Pep-ball, the approach was genius. When it failed they were boring and outdated, and they failed way too much for most fans to tolerate.

They also maybe lost the Milan fixture because Romero is a shithead, but that's another subject.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Who cares if they play attacking football? They need to win some fucking games and stop blowing leads. Spurs have scored 52 goals this season, comfortably good for third most in the league and 11 more than Man U, who is ahead of them in the table. I'd trade a few of those goals for better results, especially given they've conceded 40 goals, a number only beaten by clubs in the relegation battle. Spurs games are not boring, I don't get the complaints that they are not playing an appropriately Spurs style; they are scoring a lot of goals, letting in a lot of goals, and no lead is safe in either direction when they are involved.

I get it in the sense that attacking football=scoring=winning games, which is what the focus is.
The issue is that I am not only hoping that Spurs accumulate the highest possible number of points and/or trophies every season, I am also spending 2 - 4 hours of my fairly limited leisure time in a given week watching them for entertainment value, and it's been a fucking slog at times this season to watch with my eyeballs. With the weird first half thing, even a bunch of the matches that are good wins have 50% sucked to watch. It's been way less fun to watch overall than even last year's Conte was, let alone the mythical "attacking manager".

That said, more attacking managers were not all wine and roses and plenty of people are forgetting the matches where the great Poch teams were just futile passing in a horseshoe around a packed defense to take potshots or bad crosses.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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The issue is that I am not only hoping that Spurs accumulate the highest possible number of points and/or trophies every season, I am also spending 2 - 4 hours of my fairly limited leisure time in a given week watching them for entertainment value, and it's been a fucking slog at times this season to watch with my eyeballs. With the weird first half thing, even a bunch of the matches that are good wins have 50% sucked to watch. It's been way less fun to watch overall than even last year's Conte was, let alone the mythical "attacking manager".

That said, more attacking managers were not all wine and roses and plenty of people are forgetting the matches where the great Poch teams were just futile passing in a horseshoe around a packed defense to take potshots or bad crosses.
You just described the viewing experience of the fans of all but <5 of the clubs in the world.
 

DJnVa

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I was like 99.98% sure he was gone this week before reading that. Now I'm 100% sure.
 

DJnVa

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He didn't run training today, Ryan Mason and Stellini did.
I heard that was kind of expected as he's taking extra time in Italy, but just make the call. Schedule another Beyonce concert if you need the cash to pay him off.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Spurs should throw every dollar they can find at Nagelsmann. The guy is both an elite manager and a project manager who plays Spurs soccer.

He’s easily the best candidate for the job. They should go all out for him.
 

Kliq

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The Athletic had an article looking at potential managers for Spurs to replace Conte. In addition to Poch and Tuechel, some names they mentioned were Roberto De Zebri of Brighton, Ryan Mason, Luciano Spalletti at Napoli and Luis Enrique. An interesting candidate I thought is Oliver Glasner at Frankfurt.
 

Zomp

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Ive absolutely loved Spalletti since his Roma days and am glad to see him getting the recognition he deserves with Napoli. I think I even said I wanted him for United when Moyes was sacked.

That being said, if he wins the Scudetto it will be a hard sell to leave.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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I think I'd prefer Brighton's XI to Spurs straight up, and even moreso given their contract situations. Finishing fourth would thrill Brighton fans, finishing fourth would meet minimum expectations for not really make Spurs fans happy. I know what I'm doing if I'm de Zebri.
 
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DJnVa

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I think I'd prefer Brighton's XI to Spurs straight up, and even moreso given their contract situations. Finishing fourth would thrill Brighton fans, finishing fourth would meet minimum expectations for not really make Spurs fans happy.
As a Spurs fan, finishing 4th would absolutely make me happy.
 

Zososoxfan

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Spurs should throw every dollar they can find at Nagelsmann. The guy is both an elite manager and a project manager who plays Spurs soccer.

He’s easily the best candidate for the job. They should go all out for him.
QFT. Bayern sacking him is such a gift. It's a move that ticks all the boxes and comes without any baggage. Get it done Levy!
 

coremiller

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I think I'd prefer Brighton's XI to Spurs straight up, and even moreso given their contract situations. Finishing fourth would thrill Brighton fans, finishing fourth would meet minimum expectations for not really make Spurs fans happy. I know what I'm doing if I'm de Zebri.
If Spurs wanted Zebri, I'd imagine they could give him many, many more rea$ons$ than Brighton could to jump ship.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Spurs should throw every dollar they can find at Nagelsmann. The guy is both an elite manager and a project manager who plays Spurs soccer.
Spurs soccer maybe, but what has Nagelsmann done to deserve being labeled an elite manager and when has he built a project? He did great work at Hoffenheim, getting them to punch well above their weight for a couple years, but then left quickly, signing an agreement in summer 2018 to leave for RBL at the end of the following season. Then he went to RBL, a club where the sporting directors make all the decisions about squad building, and did essentially no better or worse than other RBL managers for two years and now Bayern for less than two years.
 

67YAZ

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If Spurs wanted Zebri, I'd imagine they could give him many, many more rea$ons$ than Brighton could to jump ship.
True, and they did just lose Potter to Chelsea. But they also held off suitors for MacAllister & Caicedo in January and then penned Caicedo to a new deal. Brighton have something special going. Might be hard to pry De Zerbi away, more than Levy would stomach.
 

DJnVa

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Tottenham's official release said Stellini was in charge, to be assisted by Mason.

Cristian Stellini will take the team as Acting Head Coach for the remainder of the season, along with Ryan Mason as Assistant Head Coach.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Who are these gentlemen (beyond the obvious), and are you (SoSH Spurs fans) OK with the decision to stay with them til the end of the season?
 

the1andonly3003

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The Athletic had an article looking at potential managers for Spurs to replace Conte. In addition to Poch and Tuechel, some names they mentioned were Roberto De Zebri of Brighton, Ryan Mason, Luciano Spalletti at Napoli and Luis Enrique. An interesting candidate I thought is Oliver Glasner at Frankfurt.
Fom The Athletic article: "Stellini, having been given the job alongside Mason until the summer, would be the continuity candidate. He’s led Tottenham to wins over Manchester City and Chelsea. He’s ready for his first head coaching role since… Alessandria in Italy’s third division. "
"He had seen one player eating nachos on his first day and could not accept it from his team. No more heavy food like nachos or sandwiches after training. No more ketchup or mayonnaise. No more cooking with too much butter and oil. Fruit was making a comeback. "

Think Arsene was the first mover with this in the 90s...
 

DJnVa

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How to fix Tottenham

Long article, too much to really copy and paste, but these are the main areas:

Rein in ‘player power’
Put the focus back on developing players
Which is it: ‘Win now’ or Tottenham DNA?
Refine the recruitment strategy
Do more to quell ‘profit over glory’ claims
Realign all elements of the club
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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More stuff:

Antonio Conte's exit from Tottenham: Transfer disagreements, public criticism and soulless football

During one meeting with a fringe member of the squad and his representative to discuss his lack of game time, both were shown video footage of the dugouts during a home match. In the video, Conte called for a substitution. The player took 96 seconds to adjust their boots and shin pads, strip down and prove ready to be introduced. They were then shown an example where Perisic was ready in just seven seconds. This was used as evidence that the player was not yet at Conte's required level.


Antonio Conte had Tottenham stars exhausted with his bizarre 2km runs BEFORE matches, he walked out of a meeting before it began and his negativity wore everyone down as it got ugly with Daniel Levy: How manager's Spurs reign turned sour

Towards the end of January, Antonio Conte gathered his Tottenham players at the club's Enfield HQ for a heart-to-heart. The Italian wanted to get to the bottom of the team's run of one Premier League win in five, including three damaging defeats. As the final player arrived, Conte walked out - telling his players he wanted them to find the solution to their wretched form.

Among the squad, there was a sense that performances and results had been hampered by Conte's rigid and defensive tactics. When senior players reported back to Conte after the crisis talks, they pleaded with him to release the shackles and be more expansive in their attacking play.
 

Zososoxfan

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You missed the most important part!

Whenever the schedule permitted, Conte would dash back to Italy to spend time with wife Elisabetta and daughter Vittoria, who have stayed in Turin.

The fact Conte would book his own flights, and use budget airline Ryanair, was something members of staff found endearing. It's the low-maintenance side of Conte that we don't get to see.

Indeed, not everyone will be glad to see the back of Conte. Away from football, he is warm and caring. Even funny. But by the time of his departure, there was little will from the club's powerbrokers, apart from director of football Fabio Paratici, to continue with Conte.

Indeed, sources have indicated that Conte's relationship with Levy was so strained that Paratici was effectively acting as a conduit between the two during the final months of the head coach's tenure.

Even talks between Conte and the club over the terms of his exit were difficult. But in a boardroom battle, there was only ever going to be one winner. It is understood Levy will insist on staying at Tottenham in the event of any future sale. He is in it for the long haul; many at Tottenham knew Conte wasn't.
I wonder if Conte's willingness to fly Ryanair led to Levy recruiting him in the first place. Also, Levy insisting on staying on post-sale is unnnnnnnnnnnnnngh. I have way more respect for him than most--his leadership has elevated Spurs to a whole new level--but he should recognize his flaws, continue to improve the club's commercial enterprise, and leave the sporting side to the pros.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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I wonder if Conte's willingness to fly Ryanair led to Levy recruiting him in the first place. Also, Levy insisting on staying on post-sale is unnnnnnnnnnnnnngh. I have way more respect for him than most--his leadership has elevated Spurs to a whole new level--but he should recognize his flaws, continue to improve the club's commercial enterprise, and leave the sporting side to the pros.
I get this 100%. But it is possible that new ownership will give him the opportunity to spend more money, in a way that he doesn't have to be seen as penny pinching. Levy could operate like this because it's how he's mandated to operate.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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So when they step into the pitch at Goodison next Monday night - a game I was supposed to be at, but I’m starting a new job- will Spurs have a “new manager bounce?” Will they run wild like theyve had the shackles thrown off? Will they mill about aimlessly? Will Richarlison start (he’s supposedly healthy)? What?
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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So when they step into the pitch at Goodison next Monday night - a game I was supposed to be at, but I’m starting a new job- will Spurs have a “new manager bounce?” Will they run wild like theyve had the shackles thrown off? Will they mill about aimlessly? Will Richarlison start (he’s supposedly healthy)? What?
Everything I've read said Richarlison is doubtful to play Monday.


Also, had Conte stayed, apparently Romero and Richarlison would have asked to leave.
 

Zososoxfan

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So when they step into the pitch at Goodison next Monday night - a game I was supposed to be at, but I’m starting a new job- will Spurs have a “new manager bounce?” Will they run wild like theyve had the shackles thrown off? Will they mill about aimlessly? Will Richarlison start (he’s supposedly healthy)? What?
While I expect some bounce in their step (especially someone like Son who really struggled with Conte's tactical rigidity), that's countered by the fact that Spurs got decimated by injuries in the international break. Out for Monday are: Emerson, Davies, Bissouma, Perisic, Sess, Richarlison, Hugo, and Bentancur. So, I have no real idea who plays LWB in the 3-4-3. Son? Danjuma??

Forster
Romero-Dier-Lenglet
Porro-Skipp-Hoj-Son (??)
Kulu-Kane-Danjuma

Bench: Dav, Japh, Sarr, Lucas, academy players

The only other thing that comes to mind is shifting Porro to LWB and then slotting in Japh at RWB, and while Japh can probably do OK in the defensive phase, he'll be worse than Emerson ever was in attack. And I ultimately think you change as little as possible and just deal with weirdness at LWB.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Makes sense to sack the manager and run out the exact same strategy. Nothing like getting out-possessed by a 10-man, relegation threatened team.