Red Sox acquire Adam Ottavino and RHP prospect Frank German from Yankees for PTBNL

Dewey'sCannon

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Sox were linked to Marcel Ozuna too, maybe he's easier to fit in under the cap than JBJ? Or at least a smaller cap hit if they nudge over?
MLB TradeRumors projected Ozuna to get 4/72, and Bradley to get 2/16.

Neither would fit under the cap as things currently stand. If they prefer JBJ to Beni, they could probably trade Beni for a middling prospect or low cost reliever and free up enough to fit JBJ under the cap (probably just barely).
 

Danny_Darwin

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So the Sox have recently added/signed

SP Martin Perez - decent back-end of the rotation guy
SP Garrett Richards - decent back-end of the rotation guy with some upside
IF Kiké Hernandez - modest player but who can play multiple positions
RP Adam Ottavino - solid reliever with upside

That's not terrible. None are earth-shattering, but they're building perhaps a respectable baseball team.
Possibly a little too respectable. They strike me as being in no-man’s land a little bit, like an NBA 9-seed - not atrocious, but unlikely to challenge for a title.

And maybe that’s okay. I’m not really advocating for a full tank job (I generally think more teams should be Going For It). I guess then that the plan is try to hope to get into contention with a hot start and then, if that doesn’t work, start shipping off everything that isn’t nailed down, including Xander, E-Rod, and Eovaldi? I guess that’s an ok plan. I don’t love it, but I get it, which kind of describes the entire Bloom era to me.
 

bosockboy

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Possibly a little too respectable. They strike me as being in no-man’s land a little bit, like an NBA 9-seed - not atrocious, but unlikely to challenge for a title.

And maybe that’s okay. I’m not really advocating for a full tank job (I generally think more teams should be Going For It). I guess then that the plan is try to hope to get into contention with a hot start and then, if that doesn’t work, start shipping off everything that isn’t nailed down, including Xander, E-Rod, and Eovaldi? I guess that’s an ok plan. I don’t love it, but I get it, which kind of describes the entire Bloom era to me.
That plan did work in 2013, to be fair..
 

chrisfont9

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MLB TradeRumors projected Ozuna to get 4/72, and Bradley to get 2/16.

Neither would fit under the cap as things currently stand. If they prefer JBJ to Beni, they could probably trade Beni for a middling prospect or low cost reliever and free up enough to fit JBJ under the cap (probably just barely).
Huh, I guess I haven't followed the Ozuna market. Thanks
 

InsideTheParker

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I don't really get this thinking, at least with regard to Ottavino specifically. If he's pitching in high-leverage innings, that means at minimum he is better than the other options for the Sox. And if he's really bad, he won't be pitching in high-leverage innings. So there isn't really a scenario where having Ottavino on the team will make them significantly less enjoyable than they would have been otherwise, regardless of how good or bad he is.
Did you see the Yankee fan's post I responded to? I know that every time my NYY-fan spouse watched Ottavino pitch he seemed to be in agony.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Something to consider regarding the luxury tax and room beneath the cap...they still haven't added Perez, Hernandez, or Richards to the roster and they're at 40 with Ottavino. There are some dominoes that have to fall just to make official the guys they've already signed. I think they're just about out of guys they can waive off the roster without losing them. Brice is out of options so he's a likely candidate, but after that, it's probably Pedroia and/or a trade or two. They could gain some salary wiggle room that way (not from Pedroia, but if they trade someone else).
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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This is the first of Bloom's moves that hasn't left me feeling unfulfilled. There's some actual upside here in somebody that could be a part of our long term future in German, plus Ottavino who has the upside of a good reliever, something we haven't seem much of recently. I'm tired of the Duquette-ish moves (that characterization upthread is spot on) of reclamation projects, platoon plyers and guys who were never that good in the first place. I understand why financially they've needed to do some of this, but is has been very uninspiring for a team that for most of the last 50 years has aspired to play competitive baseball.
 

DJnVa

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No JBJ, no Marcus Semien... looks like potentially pretty big holes at 2B and CF (beyond the whole bullpen and rotation thing).

I have no problem with a reset year, but I think it's time to call it what it likely is.
I mean, they kinda did.

 

StuckOnYouk

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Fangraphs has slotted him at #25, just above Jacob Wallace who we got for Pillar and five spots above Whitlock. They have him as the 6th best arm in the system behind Mata, Houck, Bazardo, Bello and Ward.
If Fangraphs has him as equal to Jacob Wallace, I think that's a great add. Wallace was a filthy closer for UConn in the college playoffs. Throws 94-97 with a really good slider. I thought he was a huge steal in the Pillar trade.
If they wanted to fast-track German and make him a reliever (Spier indicated it's possible), I could see he and Wallace debut in the Sox pen at some point in 2022 as two big righty power arms.
 

chawson

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Something to consider regarding the luxury tax and room beneath the cap...they still haven't added Perez, Hernandez, or Richards to the roster and they're at 40 with Ottavino. There are some dominoes that have to fall just to make official the guys they've already signed. I think they're just about out of guys they can waive off the roster without losing them. Brice is out of options so he's a likely candidate, but after that, it's probably Pedroia and/or a trade or two. They could gain some salary wiggle room that way (not from Pedroia, but if they trade someone else).
My guess is that Brice is safe. Before today he's the best weapon in the pen we have against hitters from the right side.

League average wOBA for RHH is .319 over 2019-20.

Ottavino: .250 expected wOBA (‘19-20)
Brice: .268
Andriese: .279
Brasier: .285
Hernandez: .302
Taylor: .305
Valdez: .306
Barnes: .308
---
Brewer: .379
Whitlock ---

My guess is that Chavis is going away and there’ll be some resolution with Pedroia.
 
Aug 3, 2014
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My guess is that Brice is safe. Before today he's the best weapon in the pen we have against hitters from the right side.

League average wOBA for RHH is .319 over 2019-20.

Ottavino: .250 expected wOBA (‘19-20)
Brice: .268
Andriese: .279
Brasier: .285
Hernandez: .302
Taylor: .305
Valdez: .306
Barnes: .308
---
Brewer: .379
Whitlock ---

My guess is that Chavis is going away and there’ll be some resolution with Pedroia.
My guess is Springs, Pedroia and Marcus Wilson will be the three taken off the 40 man. Bloom will hope Springs and Wilson clear waivers and come back.
 

vadertime

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My guess is Springs, Pedroia and Marcus Wilson will be the three taken off the 40 man. Bloom will hope Springs and Wilson clear waivers and come back.
I think they have to keep Wilson on the 40 man, at least for now. He's the only OF on the 40 man in the minors. Obviously, another move could always be made down the road and he could even clear waivers, but its not ideal.
 

Diamond Don Aase

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I think they have to keep Wilson on the 40 man, at least for now. He's the only OF on the 40 man in the minors. Obviously, another move could always be made down the road and he could even clear waivers, but its not ideal.
Jeisson Rosario was added to the 40-man roster earlier this winter and Michael Chavis is another optionable player with outfield experience. Jarren Duran and Cesar Puello also offer potential outfield depth, although both would have to be added to the 40-man roster.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Still think it's far too early to be cutting ties with Chavis. He's had a cumulative total of less than one full season under his belt and a chunk of that was in the middle of a pandemic. I'm not optimistic about him but the guy has some power. I don't know how he currently fits on to the team, assuming Arroyo is the 2B and Kiké is the CF.... rotating between LF, 2B and 1B would bring him plenty of PA's
 
Jul 16, 2005
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Something to consider regarding the luxury tax and room beneath the cap...they still haven't added Perez, Hernandez, or Richards to the roster and they're at 40 with Ottavino. There are some dominoes that have to fall just to make official the guys they've already signed. I think they're just about out of guys they can waive off the roster without losing them. Brice is out of options so he's a likely candidate, but after that, it's probably Pedroia and/or a trade or two. They could gain some salary wiggle room that way (not from Pedroia, but if they trade someone else).
I would think Walden and Wilson would be DFA candidates too, perhaps before Brice.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I would think Walden and Wilson would be DFA candidates too, perhaps before Brice.
To be clear, I listed Brice as a likely DFA candidate because he's a 30-year-old fringe reliever who has no minor league options remaining. There are certainly others who are viable DFA candidates but do offer the value of roster flexibility, which may be more important given the make up of the pitching staff at present.
 

Manramsclan

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What does he mean by "winter" trade though? That seems to be a curious distinction. He didn't say offseason on purpose, so I am guessing other trades happened during Spring Training? Or in the fall?

Either way I read that there were only 6 trades between the two teams since the divisional era started in 1969! Basically one per decade.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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What does he mean by "winter" trade though? That seems to be a curious distinction. He didn't say offseason on purpose, so I am guessing other trades happened during Spring Training? Or in the fall?

Either way I read that there were only 6 trades between the two teams since the divisional era started in 1969! Basically one per decade.
There was a spring training trade in 1986...Easler for Baylor. I can see differentiating that from, say, the Stanley trade or the Drew trade.
 

Manramsclan

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There was a spring training trade in 1986...Easler for Baylor. I can see differentiating that from, say, the Stanley trade or the Drew trade.
That's probably it. A midseason trade is way different because often when those trades were made the outcome had already been decided to a certain extent.

That 86 DH swap was the trade of that decade between the two teams. Was the Sparky Lyle-Danny Cater trade during the season too? Or also spring?
 

Deweys New Stance

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That's probably it. A midseason trade is way different because often when those trades were made the outcome had already been decided to a certain extent.

That 86 DH swap was the trade of that decade between the two teams. Was the Sparky Lyle-Danny Cater trade during the season too? Or also spring?
It was spring training as well, March 22nd to be exact. I looked it up after reading this thread because that winter trade fact was so surprising to me. What time of year was it when a drunk Tom Yawkey suggested trading Ted for Joe D (and had the deal fall apart because he asked for Yogi too)?
 

BaseballJones

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1985
Baylor (NYY): 23 hr, 91 rbi, .231/.330/.430/.760, 109 ops+
Easler (Bos): 16 hr, 74 rbi, .262/.325/.412/.737, 98 ops+

1986
Baylor (Bos): 31 hr, 94 rbi, .238/.344/.439/.783, 112 ops+
Easler (NYY): 14 hr, 78 rbi, .302/.362/.449/.811, 121 ops+

Both teams got improvement. Boston got 14 ops+ points of improvement, and NY got 12 ops+ points of improvement, from 1985 to 1986. Baylor stayed relatively the same, while Easler improved a lot switching to Yankee Stadium.

Fascinating trade actually. It makes me wonder what would have happened had those Williams-for-DiMaggio trade rumors actually came to fruition.

EDIT: To the last question, yes it's not perfect because they'd be facing different pitching staffs, but here's Ted and Joe's career splits in Fenway and Yankee Stadium:

Williams
- Fenway: .361/.496/.652/1.148
- Yankee: .309/.484/.543/1.027

DiMaggio
- Fenway: .334/.410/.605/1.015
- Yankee: .315/.391/.547/.938

DiMaggio likely would have seen a massive improvement in his offense playing for Boston, while Williams actually likely would have seen his numbers go down playing for the Yankees. Still, Williams' numbers would have been better than DiMaggio's (he was, after all, a much better hitter). So the Yankees would have gotten a worse version of Ted, but even that version of Ted would have been an improvement offensively over DiMaggio. For Boston, they'd have gotten a much better offensive version of DiMaggio than the Yankees had, but it still would have been a downgrade offensively from Ted. BUT...maybe it would have been close enough that his otherworldly defense would have made up for it?
 
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Minneapolis Millers

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1985
Baylor (NYY): 23 hr, 91 rbi, .231/.330/.430/.760, 109 ops+
Easler (Bos): 16 hr, 74 rbi, .262/.325/.412/.737, 98 ops+

1986
Baylor (Bos): 31 hr, 94 rbi, .238/.344/.439/.783, 112 ops+
Easler (NYY): 14 hr, 78 rbi, .302/.362/.449/.811, 121 ops+

Both teams got improvement. Boston got 14 ops+ points of improvement, and NY got 12 ops+ points of improvement, from 1985 to 1986. Baylor stayed relatively the same, while Easler improved a lot switching to Yankee Stadium.

Fascinating trade actually. It makes me wonder what would have happened had those Williams-for-DiMaggio trade rumors actually came to fruition.

EDIT: To the last question, yes it's not perfect because they'd be facing different pitching staffs, but here's Ted and Joe's career splits in Fenway and Yankee Stadium:

Williams
- Fenway: .361/.496/.652/1.148
- Yankee: .309/.484/.543/1.027

DiMaggio
- Fenway: .334/.410/.605/1.015
- Yankee: .315/.391/.547/.938

DiMaggio likely would have seen a massive improvement in his offense playing for Boston, while Williams actually likely would have seen his numbers go down playing for the Yankees. Still, Williams' numbers would have been better than DiMaggio's (he was, after all, a much better hitter). So the Yankees would have gotten a worse version of Ted, but even that version of Ted would have been an improvement offensively over DiMaggio. For Boston, they'd have gotten a much better offensive version of DiMaggio than the Yankees had, but it still would have been a downgrade offensively from Ted. BUT...maybe it would have been close enough that his otherworldly defense would have made up for it?
Baylor had a much better postseason in ‘86 than Easler ;)

As for the Ted-Joe trade, you’ve convinced me. But since Joe is older, could you throw in that young catcher to even things up?

Back to the trade itself, anyone have thoughts about German’s future? SP or more likely RP?
 

allmanbro

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Late to the party, but I really like this trade for the Sox. I am frankly surprised that the Yankees were that eager to dump him, and and that they weren't able to find someone who would take him without needing to get a decent prospect and some cash. I guess all we can do is see if he can bounce back.
 

Rough Carrigan

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1985
Baylor (NYY): 23 hr, 91 rbi, .231/.330/.430/.760, 109 ops+
Easler (Bos): 16 hr, 74 rbi, .262/.325/.412/.737, 98 ops+

1986
Baylor (Bos): 31 hr, 94 rbi, .238/.344/.439/.783, 112 ops+
Easler (NYY): 14 hr, 78 rbi, .302/.362/.449/.811, 121 ops+

Both teams got improvement. Boston got 14 ops+ points of improvement, and NY got 12 ops+ points of improvement, from 1985 to 1986. Baylor stayed relatively the same, while Easler improved a lot switching to Yankee Stadium.

Fascinating trade actually. It makes me wonder what would have happened had those Williams-for-DiMaggio trade rumors actually came to fruition.

EDIT: To the last question, yes it's not perfect because they'd be facing different pitching staffs, but here's Ted and Joe's career splits in Fenway and Yankee Stadium:

Williams
- Fenway: .361/.496/.652/1.148
- Yankee: .309/.484/.543/1.027

DiMaggio
- Fenway: .334/.410/.605/1.015
- Yankee: .315/.391/.547/.938

DiMaggio likely would have seen a massive improvement in his offense playing for Boston, while Williams actually likely would have seen his numbers go down playing for the Yankees. Still, Williams' numbers would have been better than DiMaggio's (he was, after all, a much better hitter). So the Yankees would have gotten a worse version of Ted, but even that version of Ted would have been an improvement offensively over DiMaggio. For Boston, they'd have gotten a much better offensive version of DiMaggio than the Yankees had, but it still would have been a downgrade offensively from Ted. BUT...maybe it would have been close enough that his otherworldly defense would have made up for it?
Oh come on. When Ted played in yankee stadium he was, for most of his career batting against the best or near best pitching staff in the league. When he played in Fenway, that was against the yankees, too, but also the St. Louis Browns, the 1940's White Sox etc. Williams would have been playing in yankee stadium against every pitching staff but the yankees'.
 

BaseballJones

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Obviously in either case Ted would be hitting against everyone else in the AL, except NY (playing for Bos) or Bos (playing for NY). So all you need to do is compare NY's pitching to Boston's. Now using ERA+ as the benchmark, which takes ballparks into account, here were the two teams' ERA+ numbers each year of Ted's career:

1939 - NY 139, Bos 104
1940 - NY 104, Bos 92
1941 - NY 112, Bos 99
1942 - NY 119, Bos 109
...
1946 - NY 110, Bos 108
1947 - NY 104, Bos 102 - This is the year the trade was proposed (according to the story)
1948 - NY 109, Bos 104
1949 - NY 108, Bos 109
1950 - NY 104, Bos 102
1951 - NY 108, Bos 108
1952 - NY 106, Bos 104
1953 - NY 115, Bos 116
1954 - NY 107, Bos 103
1955 - NY 117, Bos 117
1956 - NY 107, Bos 111
1957 - NY 120, Bos 103
1958 - NY 111, Bos 102
1959 - NY 101, Bos 97
1960 - NY 103, Bos 88

So in most of those years, NY's pitching was a LITTLE better than Boston's. Not much. A little. In some of those years, Boston's pitching was actually better than New York's. And in just a few years, New York's pitching was much better than Boston's. So your point is basically true, that it would have helped Ted to face Boston's pitching instead of NY's, but in reality, the difference over that span of time wasn't that big.
 

jmcc5400

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I was leafing through BBRef to see if Ted’s Yankee Stadium stats might have been suppressed by the MFY’s lefty-heavy staff in relevant years - Ford, Lopat, Byrne and Page. But in so doing, I mainly found myself irritated that the MFY Aaron Smalled a 16-5 season out of Tommy Byrne in 1955 after jettisoning him as washed up four years earlier.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Obviously in either case Ted would be hitting against everyone else in the AL, except NY (playing for Bos) or Bos (playing for NY). So all you need to do is compare NY's pitching to Boston's. Now using ERA+ as the benchmark, which takes ballparks into account, here were the two teams' ERA+ numbers each year of Ted's career:

1939 - NY 139, Bos 104
1940 - NY 104, Bos 92
1941 - NY 112, Bos 99
1942 - NY 119, Bos 109
...
1946 - NY 110, Bos 108
1947 - NY 104, Bos 102 - This is the year the trade was proposed (according to the story)
1948 - NY 109, Bos 104
1949 - NY 108, Bos 109
1950 - NY 104, Bos 102
1951 - NY 108, Bos 108
1952 - NY 106, Bos 104
1953 - NY 115, Bos 116
1954 - NY 107, Bos 103
1955 - NY 117, Bos 117
1956 - NY 107, Bos 111
1957 - NY 120, Bos 103
1958 - NY 111, Bos 102
1959 - NY 101, Bos 97
1960 - NY 103, Bos 88

So in most of those years, NY's pitching was a LITTLE better than Boston's. Not much. A little. In some of those years, Boston's pitching was actually better than New York's. And in just a few years, New York's pitching was much better than Boston's. So your point is basically true, that it would have helped Ted to face Boston's pitching instead of NY's, but in reality, the difference over that span of time wasn't that big.
Okay, you have a point in that the difference between the two staffs is not as large as I would have guessed.
But the main point is not the difference between the Sox and yankees.
In one venue he only faced a very good set of pitchers, those on the new york yankees.
In another you had the yankees but also some truly terrible staffs, those of the St. Louis Browns and the Tigers and White Sox of their bad years etc. It's not just about switching out him facing Mel Parnell instead of Eddie Lopat. The problem is that the set of pitchers he faced in Fenway included the Browns, A's, Senators etc.
 

Niastri

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Here's hoping German carries a huge "lesser prospect" chip on his shoulder that propels him to greatness in Boston.
"Hahahaha, Cashman said you couldn't do it!"

I appreciate Cashman's candor here. They needed a salary dump for whatever reason and the Sox came in with the best bid, probably by a lot.

When looking at the ledger of any trade, giving something/anything away to your biggest rival is a serious consideration.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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"Hahahaha, Cashman said you couldn't do it!"

I appreciate Cashman's candor here. They needed a salary dump for whatever reason and the Sox came in with the best bid, probably by a lot.

When looking at the ledger of any trade, giving something/anything away to your biggest rival is a serious consideration.
I can't help but fantasize about this Sox squad in '21 surprising everyone, similar to '13 and with Ottavino striking out Judge to win the ALCS... while German makes a great leap forward and turns into a top ten SP prospect more highly regarded than any of the Yanks guys.
A guy can dream!!!!
 

jon abbey

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Do folks really believe Cashman meant this!?!?!?!?
Yes, he is pretty honest in these situations (when the deal has already happened). I was expecting NY was going to have to bundle someone like Yoendrys Gomez and German is not as well regarded as him.
 

jon abbey

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Also German needs to be added to the 40 man or left exposed to the rule 5 after the season, and NY has too many young pitchers on the 40 man already (meaning guys who are likely not able to help yet).
 

grimshaw

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It's not like Adam Ottavino is going to make or break a theoretical Red Sox run at the World Series. It's him for a year and that's it. Good timing for an intra-division trade.
 

Niastri

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Do folks really believe Cashman meant this!?!?!?!?
I believe that he took the better deal with us only because the Sox were willing to accept the lesser prospect... The rest is GM speak.

What's he going to say "We dumped a guy that's completely cooked, and conned our biggest rival into taking him off our hands by throwing in a prospect that has no shot of ever amounting to anything! Muhahaha!"

Hopefully Bloom scouted them a bit before dumping 8 million.
 

Niastri

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I can't help but fantasize about this Sox squad in '21 surprising everyone, similar to '13 and with Ottavino striking out Judge to win the ALCS... while German makes a great leap forward and turns into a top ten SP prospect more highly regarded than any of the Yanks guys.
A guy can dream!!!!
Yup, I'm there too. It was hard literally not caring about baseball at all last season. I'm ready to be invested for 162 this year.
 

jon abbey

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The interesting part of this deal for me is that with everyone treating the $210M cap number as a hard ceiling, the Ottavino move seems like it takes JBJ out of consideration for BOS, which I know Yankee hitters would be happy about (as would I). Maybe Bloom was never going to sign JBJ anyway, maybe he still will anyway, but that part is one thing I will be keeping an eye on.
 

MFYankees

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Baylor had a much better postseason in ‘86 than Easler ;)

As for the Ted-Joe trade, you’ve convinced me. But since Joe is older, could you throw in that young catcher to even things up?

Back to the trade itself, anyone have thoughts about German’s future? SP or more likely RP?