Price is right

Red(s)HawksFan

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Given the situation I just feel better with Price in a game 1. Especially because I think Sale has the potential to put much more stress on the bullpen in game 1. I guess at the end of the day though, the fact it's even plausible is a testament to Price's performance.
Agreed. I'm betting we don't have to scroll back far in this thread (or in some relatively recent thread) to find suggestions that Price should be in the bullpen this October. That it has come around to talk that he should be starting game 1 says a lot about his performance. Not that the talk of him going to the bullpen was ever reasonable or deserved at the time.
 

BaseballJones

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Price's last 21 games, since his awful start at Texas:

21 g, 128.2 ip, 13-2, 2.94 era, 1.02 whip, 9.6 k/9

Dominant.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Price's last 21 games, since his awful start at Texas:

21 g, 128.2 ip, 13-2, 2.94 era, 1.02 whip, 9.6 k/9

Dominant.
Of those 21 starts, he has given up more than two runs in only six, and more than three runs in only two. Here's the distribution:

0 runs: 4
1 run: 4
2 runs: 7
3 runs: 4
4 runs: 1
8 runs: 1

That, ladies and gentlemen, is an ace.
 

Hyde's Pryde

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I'm not so sure he shouldn't be game 1 starter.

In fact. I'm almost positive he should be game 1 starter.

Hes made such an adjustment. The change up has become a legitimate weapon and helps the cutter and 2 seam that much more affective. Hes out there dotting corner with conflicting movements and changing speeds.
I wouldn't go that far as being the number one in the playoffs. They have Chris Sale for that. But they wouldn't be where they are right now without Price this year. A lot of people wrote him off after the first half but I stuck with him and he proved as of right now he's worth some of that contract he signed.

The playoffs haven't been easy for him though, but hopefully this is the year he turns those playoff numbers around. Maybe it's in his head but he just doesn't have very good career numbers there. But I think he's gonna be good this time around. He has been able to move the ball around and miss to the right location if he does miss. His change up and and cutter have been way better, and he's hitting the corners as well and also pounding guys inside.

I think it's come from the experience and the confidence in trusting his stuff. Losing some of his natural stuff has brought him experience and he's worked at being a pitcher and I think he's going to surprise a lot of people this post season.
 

The Gray Eagle

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This Glob article from August 4th explains some of the adjustments Price made, it's really interesting.
After the Yankees pounded him on July 1, he "went back to the drawing board."

"Rather than trying to overpower hitters, he’s spent more time throwing pitches to fool them. Significantly, he moved from the third-base side of the rubber to the first-base side, something that has allowed him to combine back-door cutters that nip the plate from his arm side with front-door two-seam fastballs that sneak over the opposite corner. In doing so, he’s taken away hitters’ ability to sit on a location, with strong results... On top of that, according to pitching coach Dana LeVangie, Price has also lowered his arm slot slightly in an effort both to find greater comfort on the mound and in an effort to increase his ability to manipulate his pitches."
 

sean1562

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Price has had a great year and I would definitely say he is worth his contract this year. But every start against the Yankees I go in assuming he is going to get crushed. Sale I have every confidence in and know he will give us a great Game 1 start against anyone, but David against the Yankees just makes me nervous. A 10.32 ERA in 4 starts against our biggest rival is just not great
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Of those 21 starts, he has given up more than two runs in only six, and more than three runs in only two. Here's the distribution:

0 runs: 4
1 run: 4
2 runs: 7
3 runs: 4
4 runs: 1
8 runs: 1

That, ladies and gentlemen, is an ace.
Unless he is facing the MFY, at which point in almost every start he poops his pants.
 

AB in DC

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Price has had a great year and I would definitely say he is worth his contract this year. But every start against the Yankees I go in assuming he is going to get crushed. Sale I have every confidence in and know he will give us a great Game 1 start against anyone, but David against the Yankees just makes me nervous. A 10.32 ERA in 4 starts against our biggest rival is just not great
A lot of this seems to be Yankee Stadium and not the Yankees in particular. This was mentioned briefly in the game thread, but last night he gave up three home runs to right field that would have been an out in most ballparks. I haven't checked his other Yankee games but I wouldn't be surprised to see the same kind of thing.
 

jon abbey

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A lot of this seems to be Yankee Stadium and not the Yankees in particular. This was mentioned briefly in the game thread, but last night he gave up three home runs to right field that would have been an out in most ballparks. I haven't checked his other Yankee games but I wouldn't be surprised to see the same kind of thing.
He has had three other starts against NY this year:

The first in early April at Fenway where he gave up 4 runs in an inning and then left with some issue that wasn't bad enough for him to miss more than a few days.

The second in NY on July 1, 5 HRs and 8 ERs allowed in 3.1 innings, none of them cheapies, including two blasts to dead center by Judge and Hicks. I believe this was the worst game of his career.

The third in August in Fenway, he went 6 innings/2 runs against a NY lineup missing Judge and Sanchez, this was the Sunday night game BOS came back from 4-1 down in the 9th to essentially clinch the division.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Bump... have at it.

relevant quote
Price has had a great year and I would definitely say he is worth his contract this year. But every start against the Yankees I go in assuming he is going to get crushed. Sale I have every confidence in and know he will give us a great Game 1 start against anyone, but David against the Yankees just makes me nervous. A 10.32 ERA in 4 starts against our biggest rival is just not great
 

mt8thsw9th

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He can still redeem himself if they make it through (and he’s on the LCS roster), but I’m pretty much done defending him tooth and nail anymore. It’s sad, too, because I had hoped he’d have been able to solidify a hall of fame career for nearly a decade and we’ve had flashes, and already too much of the mythical playoff David Price. And he killed them in the 2008 ALCS too. Go figure that would be his biggest postseason moment involving the Red Sox.
 

oumbi

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Price not making any excuses in his post game...
I am not sure there are any to make. He has generally been very poor in the post season for his career. Now 2 and 9 record in the playoffs with an ERA over 5.00. At some point it may be fair to conclude that this is part of who he is, a poor playoff pitcher.
 

streeter88

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There was a post in the game thread that we couldn't hang this latest loss on Price, but momentum and opportunity to stay in the game depended on Price actually not shitting the bed for the first 4 innings at least. Imagine in an alternate universe that Price gives up 3 runs through 5 innings instead of 1 2/3. That 7th inning would never have had to happen.

Even worse, on the WEEI pregame show, there was a segment with a writer from WFAN and Rob Bradford, and the WFAN guy called it. And to be honest, he was more believable than Bradford (which made me throw up in my mouth).
 

TheoShmeo

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There was a post in the game thread that we couldn't hang this latest loss on Price, but momentum and opportunity to stay in the game depended on Price actually not shitting the bed for the first 4 innings at least. Imagine in an alternate universe that Price gives up 3 runs through 5 innings instead of 1 2/3. That 7th inning would never have had to happen.

Even worse, on the WEEI pregame show, there was a segment with a writer from WFAN and Rob Bradford, and the WFAN guy called it. And to be honest, he was more believable than Bradford (which made me throw up in my mouth).
Honestly, it would have been very hard to predict anything different. I hoped Price would be the non Yankees regular season Price, but it was only a feint hope.

Sadly, today’s CHB offering is dead on accurate.

If Cora gives him another start in this series, it’s managerial malpractice.
 

Byrdbrain

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Honestly, it would have been very hard to predict anything different. I hoped Price would be the non Yankees regular season Price, but it was only a feint hope.

Sadly, today’s CHB offering is dead on accurate.

If Cora gives him another start in this series, it’s managerial malpractice.
He was never getting another start due to the schedule, the question is if he will pitch again.
I assume he will but I sure wouldn't bet on it.
 

TheoShmeo

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He was never getting another start due to the schedule, the question is if he will pitch again.
I assume he will but I sure wouldn't bet on it.
Right, good point.

I don’t think I would use him again, period.

Shades of Pedro on the mound in game 7 2004, and I do not mean to make ANY comparison between the abilities or temperament of those two. Even calling them a “two” feels dirty, so mea culpa to those who spit up their coffee.
 

JimD

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Short-term, I wouldn't hesitate to use him in relief in the ALDS if the situation warrants it and there a re no clearly better options in the pen. *If* the Sox make it past the Yankees, he will definitely get starts in the Championship Series unless he's hurt.

Long-term, I really hope he proves he's different by using his opt-out. He cannot be enjoying this.
 

TheoShmeo

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Short-term, I wouldn't hesitate to use him in relief in the ALDS if the situation warrants it and there a re no clearly better options in the pen. *If* the Sox make it past the Yankees, he will definitely get starts in the Championship Series unless he's hurt.

Long-term, I really hope he proves he's different by using his opt-out. He cannot be enjoying this.
Unless he has a hugely dramatic turnaround in these playoffs, and let’s hope he does, I think there is zero chance he opts out. It would be economic suicide.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Unless he has a hugely dramatic turnaround in these playoffs, and let’s hope he does, I think there is zero chance he opts out. It would be economic suicide.
No it wouldn't. He'd have to try damn hard to commit economic suicide. He's made a Titanic level of money already. It'd be a bad decision as far as maximizing income over the next 3 seasons though, yes.
 

TheoShmeo

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No it wouldn't. He'd have to try damn hard to commit economic suicide. He's made a Titanic level of money already. It'd be a bad decision as far as maximizing income over the next 3 seasons though, yes.
We can quibble over the adjectives.

If Price walks away and leaves however many tens of millions on the table in light of what he's made thus far, and in deference to his comfort level, I daresay that would put him in the overwhelming minority of professional athletes and humans in general. Sure, David Price is a different cat, and if anyone is going to be different, it would be him. But I would bet a lot of American dollars against it happening.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Honestly, it would have been very hard to predict anything different. I hoped Price would be the non Yankees regular season Price, but it was only a feint hope.

Sadly, today’s CHB offering is dead on accurate.

If Cora gives him another start in this series, it’s managerial malpractice.
CHB had that puppy ready to go for weeks. All he had to do last night was change the date and submit it before the deadline. That’s how predictable Price is in the playoffs. At this point you have to figure he’s not starting vs the Yankees again and that the Sox will probably be stuck with him over the next 4 years. This really can’t be helping his psyche, the consistency of failure in the post season.
 

patoaflac

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By not using Eovaldi nor Porcello last night, I think it’s clear that Cora will go to them in games 3 and 4, and if needed Sale in 5. Price will be used in certain situations (carefully), in those games.
 

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He’s obviously not going to opt out but I wonder what his current FA value is. He’s still a very solid regular season #2. Problem is there’s no way the Sox could get equal value for him, even if they eat some money. So, both sides are basically just...stuck.

Really disappointed that he melted down last night. If he pitched well, I feel like it would have unlocked everything for him.
 

twibnotes

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He’s obviously not going to opt out but I wonder what his current FA value is. He’s still a very solid regular season #2. Problem is there’s no way the Sox could get equal value for him, even if they eat some money. So, both sides are basically just...stuck.

Really disappointed that he melted down last night. If he pitched well, I feel like it would have unlocked everything for him.
I wonder what can we fetch if we pay half his comp and send him the to the NL. He does have value - he’s just not worth $30 mill.
 

bsj

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I didn't post this last night because I waned to sleep on it. I don't make a habit of posting hyperreactive things here, or anywhere, and I am not a regular sports radio windbag. But one day later, and I feel the same. I never want to see Price pitch in a Red Sox uniform again. Deal him this offseason. Eat as much salary as you need to. I don't care how good he is in June, or when we are up 10 games in the standings. His head is not there during crunch situations and never will be. He cannot start again in a critical spot. And we are not in a position to pay $30 million for a starter who is a liability when it matters. The second he takes the field in a big spot he already knows he is going to lose. At this point, I do too.

I know we probably arent in a position to eat $10+ million more in dead salary, but I would love if we could figure out a way.
 

streeter88

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I didn't post this last night because I waned to sleep on it. I don't make a habit of posting hyperreactive things here, or anywhere, and I am not a regular sports radio windbag. But one day later, and I feel the same. I never want to see Price pitch in a Red Sox uniform again. Deal him this offseason. Eat as much salary as you need to. I don't care how good he is in June, or when we are up 10 games in the standings. His head is not there during crunch situations and never will be. He cannot start again in a critical spot. And we are not in a position to pay $30 million for a starter who is a liability when it matters. The second he takes the field in a big spot he already knows he is going to lose. At this point, I do too.

I know we probably arent in a position to eat $10+ million more in dead salary, but I would love if we could figure out a way.
I wish there was a way to like a post, because you have 100% nailed it.
 

BaseballJones

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I know many people here either don’t want to hear it or refuse to get it, but David Price is a terrific pitcher in the regular season and he’s a huge reason the Sox won 108 games... but his postseason track record as a starter is nothing short of an unmitigated disaster. He should not start in the postseason, period.

BUT he also has been a very very good RELIEVER in the postseason, including as recently as last year.

So the correct strategy is to let Price give you 200 innings at a low to mid 3 era during the season, which is hugely valuable, and then make him your Andrew Miller style reliever in the playoffs. That’s the optimal usage of David Price.

The Sox could start Sale, EdRo, Porcello, and Eovaldi and have Price in the pen. That’s what I called for months ago and I honestly think that concept has tons of merit. Price can be very helpful for this team in the playoffs. For real. Just not in a starting role. It’s too bad but frankly, if he pitches two or three times at 2 very effective innings each, isn’t that a great use of the guy?
 

JimD

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I didn't post this last night because I waned to sleep on it. I don't make a habit of posting hyperreactive things here, or anywhere, and I am not a regular sports radio windbag. But one day later, and I feel the same. I never want to see Price pitch in a Red Sox uniform again. Deal him this offseason. Eat as much salary as you need to. I don't care how good he is in June, or when we are up 10 games in the standings. His head is not there during crunch situations and never will be. He cannot start again in a critical spot. And we are not in a position to pay $30 million for a starter who is a liability when it matters. The second he takes the field in a big spot he already knows he is going to lose. At this point, I do too.

I know we probably arent in a position to eat $10+ million more in dead salary, but I would love if we could figure out a way.
I'm right there too, but the only way I see the Sox getting another team to take on any significant portion of Price's salary would be through a swap of really bad contracts. No idea who they'd match up with.
 

bsj

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I'm right there too, but the only way I see the Sox getting another team to take on any significant portion of Price's salary would be through a swap of really bad contracts. No idea who they'd match up with.
Right. I know it's not realistic to eat massive money blindly. But I hope the Sox explore every possible option to move him going forward. I've never been a vocal critic before. Not once. But this was the tipping point for me. He's had his chances.
 

RedOctober3829

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Right. I know it's not realistic to eat massive money blindly. But I hope the Sox explore every possible option to move him going forward. I've never been a vocal critic before. Not once. But this was the tipping point for me. He's had his chances.
He still has a chance this year. He's probably getting the ball at some point on Monday or Tuesday.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Price might be an especially bad fit for the Red Sox, considering his consistent failure against the Yankees - but he’s not a total waste of $30M. There’s certainly better ways that money could be spent, but there are certainly far worse ways.

He’s not blocking anyone, and is for the most part productive, so paying him $15 million to excel in the NL probably isn’t the smartest idea.

If we can get a team to pay ~$25M/yr on his contract, I’d be all ears. But giving him away on a $15/yr deal would be giving a team incredible value.

Given his age and postseason struggles, I’d subsidize him a bit, but he’s not Pablo Sandoval.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Putting Price on the mound in a Yankee Stadium game where the Sox are ahead and/or have momentum would be like dropping a freshly barbecued zebra in a pit of sleeping lions.

Putting him on the mound in a mop-up situation in Yankee Stadium would make a mockery of him. I don’t see him pitching again this series unless it’s a very situational circumstance in game 5.
 

soxin6

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I didn't post this last night because I waned to sleep on it. I don't make a habit of posting hyperreactive things here, or anywhere, and I am not a regular sports radio windbag. But one day later, and I feel the same. I never want to see Price pitch in a Red Sox uniform again. Deal him this offseason. Eat as much salary as you need to. I don't care how good he is in June, or when we are up 10 games in the standings. His head is not there during crunch situations and never will be. He cannot start again in a critical spot. And we are not in a position to pay $30 million for a starter who is a liability when it matters. The second he takes the field in a big spot he already knows he is going to lose. At this point, I do too.

I know we probably arent in a position to eat $10+ million more in dead salary, but I would love if we could figure out a way.
Many Sox fans didn't want to sign Price and he hasn't done anything to change those feelings. He has been horrible against the Sox biggest rival and he is not going to opt out of his contract and do the Sox any favors. He can't be used in Yankee stadium because they will just keep hitting pop fly homers to right. He has never won a playoff game and it isn't like he hasn't had chances. Trading him is nearly impossible without eating 10+ million a year for the next four years and I don't see the Sox doing that. We are stuck with Price for the foreseeable future and will have to live with him eating innings, coming up small in big games, and being a tool when dealing with the media.
 

genoasalami

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He's our second starter who can't pitch in big games because he has "performance anxiety". Isn't that great?
 

donutogre

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Well, the Price experience is coming to Yankee stadium, get excited. Cora says he’ll be available out of the pen, possibly as early as tomorrow since he only threw 42 pitches yesterday.

http://mlb.com/r/article?ymd=20181007&content_id=297320346&vkey=news_bos&c_id=bos

Not surprising since he wouldn’t get another start in this series and given how starters are used in the playoffs. But definitely surprising when you imagine him coming into a close game in Yankee stadium.

But, what else is Cora gonna say? Hopefully we’ll only see him mopping up a big Sox win.
 

NDame616

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I dont care if he is amazing in long relief. We arent paying him 30 million for long relief. At 30 million he needs to be a shut down starter who cna give us 6+ in the post season.
But he isn't. At $20M, Pablo is supposed to be a power hitting 3B. At $20M, Hanley is supposed to be an offensive force. At $153M Ellsbury is supposed to be a top CF in baseball

It isn't about finding the correct role for his contract. It's about putting him and the Sox in the best position to win
 

RedOctober3829

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I dont care if he is amazing in long relief. We arent paying him 30 million for long relief. At 30 million he needs to be a shut down starter who cna give us 6+ in the post season.
We'd all like that to be the case, but he can redeem himself in this series with a big relief outing that helps the team win. If they go on to win this series, that may give him the confidence he lacks currently in the postseason and may get a good start out of him in the ALCS.
 

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I can’t buy into the psycho stuff. 2018 Price is not the same pitcher as former Prices. He figured out a different approach and succeeded, albeit not in ace-like fashion.

We’ve seen too many number 1 or 2 pitchers blow up in the postseason. It happens. I really think if he were to start again that the result would likely be different. Why? Every game stands on its own. Price hasn’t been an ace in a while, so - like CC or Happ, one game’s not necessarily predictive of the next.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I can’t buy into the psycho stuff. 2018 Price is not the same pitcher as former Prices. He figured out a different approach and succeeded, albeit not in ace-like fashion.

We’ve seen too many number 1 or 2 pitchers blow up in the postseason. It happens. I really think if he were to start again that the result would likely be different. Why? Every game stands on its own. Price hasn’t been an ace in a while, so - like CC or Happ, one game’s not necessarily predictive of the next.
Exactly. If the Sox advance to the ALCS, Price absolutely without question will start Game 1 or 2 (depending on whether the LDS goes 4 or 5). What happened last night won't change that. And he very well could throw 7 shutout innings in that start.
 

genoasalami

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I can’t buy into the psycho stuff. 2018 Price is not the same pitcher as former Prices. He figured out a different approach and succeeded, albeit not in ace-like fashion.

We’ve seen too many number 1 or 2 pitchers blow up in the postseason. It happens. I really think if he were to start again that the result would likely be different. Why? Every game stands on its own. Price hasn’t been an ace in a while, so - like CC or Happ, one game’s not necessarily predictive of the next.
His teams are 0-10 in playoff games he has started. Did you see his body language? He needs to spend a winter with a sport performance shrink.
 

RedOctober3829

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I can’t buy into the psycho stuff. 2018 Price is not the same pitcher as former Prices. He figured out a different approach and succeeded, albeit not in ace-like fashion.

We’ve seen too many number 1 or 2 pitchers blow up in the postseason. It happens. I really think if he were to start again that the result would likely be different. Why? Every game stands on its own. Price hasn’t been an ace in a while, so - like CC or Happ, one game’s not necessarily predictive of the next.
It's now a pretty large sample size of failures over a number of years however. While one start's results aren't predictive of future results, the fact remains that something is wrong with Price as a starter in the postseason. We're all grasping at straws to see what might change with him in October. Maybe lately he spends too much time thinking and putting pressure on himself to change the narrative about himself in the time leading up to a start. As a reliever, you don't have time to overhype an appearance.
 

crow216

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I think pitchers who have lived in the AL East for most of their career are always liable to get smacked around in the postseason vs other AL east opponents. The advanced scouting and attention of an entire department of analysts has to make it much harder on pitchers like Price and Happ. Not to say they can’t or don’t often succeed but the binders of data on matchups must be enormous. You guys are killing Price but Happ did the same thing. Last year, Severino did it. Kershaw has done it a few times. Look at Kluber. It’s up to Cora to anticipate and be ready for the blowups because they’re going to happen again. Cora did a fine job yesterday backing Price up but he can’t take the bat off the offense’s shoulders and he can’t predict Nunez sucking at 3B.

So yea, Price has a worse track record and is making more money but aside from Houston, the whole AL is just trying to figure out how to get to the 6th inning.
 

mauidano

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My personal emotions aside, Price really does want to do well and I am sure he is as befuddled about "why and how" as everyone else is. He's a pretty good #2 rotation guy for the most part. However, reality is baseball is such a numbers game and his numbers have been atrocious in the Post Season and against the MFY's. The team needs to work around it. He should not see the mound in New York unless it's mop up time. SHOULD we survive, he gets another shot in the ALCS.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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His teams are 0-10 in playoff games he has started. Did you see his body language? He needs to spend a winter with a sport performance shrink.
Maybe he should come see you seeing as you're educated enough to read his body language and all. :eyeroll:

Yes, 0-10 in his post-season starts. There are a few good starts in that mix (yes some shit shows too) where he was the hard luck loser or got a no-decision. For example, in his one playoff start with the Tigers in 2014, he went 8 innings giving up 2 runs on 5 hits against a potent Orioles lineup. His offense scored one so they lost 2-1.

Not included in his post-season resume, but it might as well be, is his start in a Game 163 back in 2013. He pitched a complete game in Texas allowing just 2 runs on 7 hits, getting the Rays to the Wildcard game and then eventually the ALDS against the Sox. A do or die game and he didn't wilt under the pressure. Is having the playoff patch on his sleeve that big a mental block for him?

Price is a good fucking pitcher. If you run him out there to start a game, he's going to give you a good performance most of the time. He blew it last night and he's had some other poor post-season starts. Doesn't mean he's irreparably damaged moving forward.