Pats offense: Ongoing discussion

lexrageorge

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Harry may very well be gone by the time the day is over. Doubt we’ll see him when August rolls around.
 

rodderick

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I see no way they keep six receivers on the roster plus Matthew Slater. Harry is very likely done (he'll still have a breakout camp for the third year in a row according to the beat, though).
 

Ferm Sheller

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The WR corps: Meyers, Bourne, Parker, Agholor, Thornton, Harry, Montgomery, Nixon

Assuming Thornton actually turns out to be pretty good (big assumption), that's a solid group for Mac to throw to. And I do wonder if they'll mix in some Marcus Jones somehow.
They have Wilkerson on the roster, too.
 

ekim colorwaterpit

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The WR corps: Meyers, Bourne, Parker, Agholor, Thornton, Harry, Montgomery, Nixon

Assuming Thornton actually turns out to be pretty good (big assumption), that's a solid group for Mac to throw to. And I do wonder if they'll mix in some Marcus Jones somehow.
Wilkerson too, correct? That's a lot of receivers and I definitely think we see 1 or 2 (Harry) used in a trade today.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah I was going to put Wilkerson on there but I don't even see him listed on the Pats' depth chart on ESPN. So I was like...was his contract up or something?
 

Cellar-Door

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So the consensus was that the Pats D needed a huge infusion of youth/speed, so naturally BB picks a ton of offense.
The offense also needed a lot of work, maybe more in some ways long term, given the D had more young guys that didn't get to play last year for injury reasons. He took two CBs which was a need area. Really the only area he didn't add was front 7, but they had 3 guys who basically red-shirted last year, added a guy in a trade and added a hybrid LB/S.
 

DavidTai

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I feel like it's probably better (at least for my sanity) to assume Belichick is looking towards both next year and not necessarily solely this year, since he seems to be drafting replacements somewhat for next year, not this year. So we might be looking at them using this year's rookie draft for next year's replacement, especially since last year's draft seems to be geared for this year's replacements.
So some of these picks might be replacenment for OL and RB -next- year, like Damien Harris / James White / Trent Brown.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The fastest way to ruin a young QB, especially a true pocket passer, is to leave him unprotected.

If they hit on even two of the OL picks this draft will end up looking decent. It ain’t sexy but it has been a key component to their success.
 

rodderick

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Is Def more plug and play? Is the idea to get the Off set for 2022 and then layer in Def for 2023 when you feel you’re ready?
I'd argue defense is less plug and play and surrounded with more uncertainty in general (defensive performance is far more volatile than offensive from year to year). Offense is so QB dependent that I'd argue it's easier to plug guys in provided the signal caller is in place.
 

ifmanis5

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Classic BB today on who is calling offensive plays:
View: https://twitter.com/ProFootballTalk/status/1528767424438280194

Bill Belichick on offensive play-caller: When we get to it, we'll get to it.
“What plays are we calling? Minicamp plays?” Belichick said, scoffing. “We’re going to coach the team, coach the players, get them ready to go. We’re going to game plan when we have to game plan, play calls, do all the things we need to do to compete in games. Right now, we’re months away from that.”
 

DJnVa

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Bill Belichick on offensive play-caller: When we get to it, we'll get to it.
"Up next on the Patriots Beat Podcast--why Belichick refusing to name a playcaller in May shows the game has passed him by!"
 

Mystic Merlin

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Bedard is difficult to pin down with many of his takes because he’s obfuscatory with where his personal assessment begins and sourced information ends, and he gets SO worked up sometimes that you have to question what is performative and what is the sourced take.

He’s tiresome to me as a result.
 

Shelterdog

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Bedard is difficult to pin down with many of his takes because he’s obfuscatory with where his personal assessment begins and sourced information ends, and he gets SO worked up sometimes that you have to question what is performative and what is the sourced take.

He’s tiresome to me as a result.
Yes. I also get the chance that he does have some sources "in the building" but not particularly good ones so his information seems off. For example he spent some time last year saying there that coaching staff had some issues with the offensive line's offseason work ethic and in game effort. ok, maybe? They weren't great early on its plausible. He pointed the finger at Wynn and Brown. Again, maybe? Those are players he kind of has it out for but who knows. But fast foward to the off-season-- Wynn and Brown two get re-signed/optioned, and he trades Mason and lets Karras (admittedly Karras got a pretty rich contract and was but a pawn in game of football). So that gets me thinking--it seems a little surprising that BB would re-sign two players for one position group with a similar effort issue. Was Bedard right but had the wrong guy? Was there a little issue that he blew out of proportion? Is it all made up?
 

DJnVa

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Any thoughts on this? Lazar seems think there's a chance the Patriots are changing offensive systems.

 

E5 Yaz

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Any thoughts on this? Lazar seems think there's a chance the Patriots are changing offensive systems.

Kyed addressed the idea of trading Wynn in his mailbag:

@CHEYENNESULLI14: ARE THE PATRIOTS TRADING WYNN?
I personally haven’t heard anything on that front after checking around with some league sources, but nothing would surprise me with the New England Patriots.
Isaiah Wynn is set to play on his fifth-year option for $10.413 million in 2022, and that salary is fully guaranteed. He hasn’t been at voluntary organized team activities, and it’s unclear why. He also hasn’t received a contract extension beyond the 2022 season and is currently set to be a free agent in the offseason.
The Patriots inserted Trent Brown in at left tackle last week at OTAs, which was notable. If New England planned to keep Brown at right tackle this season, then it could have put Justin Herron at left tackle – a position he’s played extensively in the NFL – while keeping Brown at right tackle to not upset the apple cart and build early chemistry between players who will be aligned next to one another during the season. Instead, they moved Brown to left tackle, where he played next to rookie guard Cole Strange, and inserted Herron at right tackle, next to guard Michael Onwenu.
So, maybe they’re in the beginning stages of preparing to be without Wynn, or maybe they just wanted to see what Brown looked like next to Strange. Brown was not present Tuesday at OTAs, and Herron stayed at right tackle with Yodny Cajuste manning the left tackle position. It was also interesting that Herron stayed at right tackle.
That being said, trading Wynn would be a daring move. He’s earned an 80.6 offensive grade at left tackle since being selected in the first round of the 2018 NFL Draft, and he ranks 15th among left tackles in that span of time. It’s difficult to find average starting left tackles,
but the Patriots do have another one on their roster in Brown.
Both Wynn and Brown have had some durability concerns over the course of their careers, though Wynn played a career-high 915 snaps in 2021.
The Patriots could clear $10.4 million from their cap if they did trade Wynn, but they’ve already replaced Shaq Mason with Onwenu and Ted Karras with Strange. Herron would be the top option to replace Wynn as a starter. It gets shallow quick with Cajuste, Yasir Durant, Arlington Hambright and rookie Andrew Stueber as the top reserve offensive tackles.
There isn’t a ton of precedent in New England plugging and playing offensive tackles, but it’s worth noting that Duane Brown, Eric Fisher, Daryl Williams and Riley Reiff are still available in free agency. If there’s a team interested in Wynn, who won’t fit every scheme as a 6-foot-2 left tackle, then the Patriots could save money by trading him and signing a veteran free agent to fill in on the right side.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-doug-kyed-mailbag-2022-nfl-draft-offensive-tackle-selections-houston-texans-season-predictions-and-more
 

BigSoxFan

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Picking up Wynn’s 5th year option was beyond stupid.
One of those deals where I was uncomfortable from the moment I heard about it. Injury issues plus uneven performance made this a dicey proposition. Disappointing he isn’t at OTAs, unless there’s a good personal reason for it.
 

Super Nomario

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Any thoughts on this? Lazar seems think there's a chance the Patriots are changing offensive systems.

Some people speculated similar before last offseason and it didn't happen. I'm skeptical. The Pats like to game plan, I can't see locking themselves in to a more defined scheme like the Shanahan one. And if they wanted to make a dramatic shift in scheme, it would make more sense to do it next offseason when they have the ability to change personnel, too.
 

mwonow

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The idea is interesting (especially at a time when it's tough to find much football stuff to talk about), but would this scheme be a good fit for some of the very large folks who are currently manning the o-line? Seems like that crew is more set up for power than space.
 
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Super Nomario

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The idea is interesting (especially at a time when it's tough to find much football stuff to talk about), but would this scheme be a good fit for some of the very large folks who are currently manning the o-line? Seems like that crew is more set up for power than space.
The right side is (Onwenu and Brown), but Brown did play a year under Kyle Shanahan in SF, and both are pretty athletic for their size. Wynn and Andrews are both small for their positions, and Strange is a great athlete who'd excel in OZ. It's not like the Patriots don't run outside zone; they do, a decent chunk of the time, but they don't major in it like a Shanahan tree team. They value their ability to game plan a lot, and they want to be able to run gap / power vs favorable matchups or zone scheme vs favorable matchups.
 

DJnVa

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As they said on the podcast, if they wanted to switch up systems (and one reason they gave that they might want to, is to make it easier to learn) why wouldn't they switch to an Alabama type system that Mac excelled in?

I don't know. I guess we'll figure more out this week.at minicamp.

Patriots minicamp: Matt Patricia or Joe Judge calling plays? Sorting out offensive tackle - The Athletic

Meanwhile, wide receiver Kendrick Bourne spoke to NESN and ESPN last week and noted the Patriots were running a new system without Josh McDaniels in charge. A source clarified to The Athletic that the system isn’t changing, but the terminology is being simplified.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The right side is (Onwenu and Brown), but Brown did play a year under Kyle Shanahan in SF, and both are pretty athletic for their size. Wynn and Andrews are both small for their positions, and Strange is a great athlete who'd excel in OZ. It's not like the Patriots don't run outside zone; they do, a decent chunk of the time, but they don't major in it like a Shanahan tree team. They value their ability to game plan a lot, and they want to be able to run gap / power vs favorable matchups or zone scheme vs favorable matchups.
So maybe they want to shift the balance a bit but continue to do both?
 

DJnVa

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RedOctober3829

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Jeff Howe with a great column yesterday centered around the offense heading into minicamp.

He indicated today that his sources tell him that it's "trending towards" Matt Patricia being the play caller on offense. He also said that there is no passing game/running game coordinator thing going.

The offensive play calling was in focus during the pair of open practices during organized team activities, with Matt Patricia, Joe Judge and Bill Belichick taking charge during various team periods. There might be some clarity forming on the matter.

As Belichick and his staff ironed out their practice plans each day, the coaches predetermined who would lead each period, according to sources. It had been speculated — with Patricia taking charge of the run-based periods and Judge in control of the pass-based periods — there might be a run-game coordinator and pass-game coordinator this season. However, that hasn’t been the case so far, according to a source.

Belichick has not yet decided who will call the plays during the season, but it’s trending in Patricia’s direction, according to a source. Patricia and Judge are each preparing for the possibility of calling plays, but Patricia’s workload this spring has suggested he’s the early favorite to handle that responsibility.
The offensive system is not changing, but the terminology for the system is being simplified so that rookies/newcomers can pick it up faster.

Meanwhile, wide receiver Kendrick Bourne spoke to NESN and ESPN last week and noted the Patriots were running a new system without Josh McDaniels in charge. A source clarified to The Athletic that the system isn’t changing, but the terminology is being simplified.

McDaniels was the Patriots offensive coordinator for the past 10 years, including eight with Tom Brady at quarterback, so it became an extremely difficult system to learn for veteran additions and rookies alike. The revamped terminology should be easier to learn — think word association rather than memorization. This should help younger players and new additions pick up the offense much quicker.
It sounds like Wynn is still ticketed for LT. Howe's sources say that they knew Wynn wouldn't be at the voluntary part of OTA's and wanted to use this period as time to get Brown comfortable at LT in case Wynn gets hurt. He did say that Wynn has decent trade value around the league, but nothing is happening at the moment.

Other notes
--They'd take Hightower back if he wants to continue playing.
--Cole Strange is impressing everybody and is being compared to Joe Thuney.
--Other players who his sources say have impressed: Stevenson and Harris, Parker, Bourne, Meyers, Agholor, Ty Montgomery, Bentley, and the "top wave of DBs especially Malcolm Butler".

https://theathletic.com/3350313/2022/06/06/patriots-minicamp-preview-offense/
 

DJnVa

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Van Everyman

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Jeff Howe with a great column yesterday centered around the offense heading into minicamp.

He indicated today that his sources tell him that it's "trending towards" Matt Patricia being the play caller on offense. He also said that there is no passing game/running game coordinator thing going.



The offensive system is not changing, but the terminology for the system is being simplified so that rookies/newcomers can pick it up faster.



It sounds like Wynn is still ticketed for LT. Howe's sources say that they knew Wynn wouldn't be at the voluntary part of OTA's and wanted to use this period as time to get Brown comfortable at LT in case Wynn gets hurt. He did say that Wynn has decent trade value around the league, but nothing is happening at the moment.

Other notes
--They'd take Hightower back if he wants to continue playing.
--Cole Strange is impressing everybody and is being compared to Joe Thuney.
--Other players who his sources say have impressed: Stevenson and Harris, Parker, Bourne, Meyers, Agholor, Ty Montgomery, Bentley, and the "top wave of DBs especially Malcolm Butler".

https://theathletic.com/3350313/2022/06/06/patriots-minicamp-preview-offense/
Belichick addressed the terminology stuff in his typically vague way today:

“Well, we’ve had a lot of changes offensively in the last couple of years,” Belichick said. “It’s a good time to streamline things. We did that defensively a couple of years ago and feel like this is a good time to do it offensively. So, yeah, there’s an element of that every year.”

Does that mean the Patriots are running a new offensive system? Belichick was asked that and had a three-word answer.

I don’t know.”

He responded to, “How big are the changes you’re making?” in a similar way.

“I don’t know,” Belichick said. “We make changes every year. I wouldn’t be able to rank them.”

Later asked if the Patriots were more just changing their offensive terminology, Belichick again said, “I don’t know” — this time smiling and shaking his head.

“Yeah, I mean, if [you’re asking] if we’re going to run the veer offense, no, that’s not what we’re doing,” Belichick said. “I’m not really sure what we’re talking about here.”
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/07/bill-belichick-its-a-good-time-to-streamline-things-offensively/
 

Van Everyman

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Howe also reporting this:

View: https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/1534241752378392581?s=20&t=UoF8r1Akt4JL17PyhauJOg


Reading between the lines, I'm wondering if they are making a bigger shift here -- moving from an OC play caller and elite QB being the big brains to a more distributed approach where players have more responsibility and input and no one coach holds the reins for everything. That would explain the "simplified terminology" piece as well as the Judge/Patricia split duties.
 

Gash Prex

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To me it seemed that McDaniels had the complete trust of Belichick and Bill didn't have to "worry" about the offense during his tenure. Now that he left, Bill is going to be involved in the offense and making sure that Judge/Patricia are on the same page with the offense fundamentals. I think Bill is teaching them as much as he is teaching Mac et al.

I think the terminology is just simplifying the offense calls now that there are new coaches involved (we all heard how complicated the calls were) and it didn't make sense while McDaniels was at helm, but now that he is gone Bill can make adjustments that he wanted with new coaches.

I actually see the above as Mac taking the next step in owning the offense and being that elite QB in understanding every piece of the offense.
 
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Kenny F'ing Powers

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Other notes
--They'd take Hightower back if he wants to continue playing.
--Cole Strange is impressing everybody and is being compared to Joe Thuney.
--Other players who his sources say have impressed: Stevenson and Harris, Parker, Bourne, Meyers, Agholor, Ty Montgomery, Bentley, and the "top wave of DBs especially Malcolm Butler".

https://theathletic.com/3350313/2022/06/06/patriots-minicamp-preview-offense/
Wow. This offseason, people have been very negative about their LB depth, picking a guard in the first round, the WRs being underwhelming, and concerns at the corner.

How lucky that all of those positions appear to be performing so well. What luck!
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Yeah, some of that seems weird. I get it with the young guys, but Agholor, who has been in the league for like 7 years and got a big money deal, is really impressing?
 

E5 Yaz

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I'd love to see the film of Mac out there by himself, drilling play calls and running through the offense with no one around.
Brings to mind that classic photoshop of David Carr during his rookie season without an O-line