Pats offense: Ongoing discussion

Phil Plantier

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Pats sign 6 to futures contracts: 5 offensive players and Quinn Nordin.

Yes, this includes a player from Navy.

The New England Patriots announced that they have signed six players to future contracts: WR Tre Nixon, K Quinn Nordin, WR Malcolm Perry, RB Devine Ozigbo, OL Will Sherman and WR Kristian Wilkerson. All of those players except Perry finished the season on the New England practice squad.

the link is stupidly long
 

BigJimEd

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View: https://twitter.com/Patriots/status/1487071055122419725


The New England Patriots announced that they have signed OL Drew Desjarlais to a future contract.
Desjarlais, 24, was drafted by the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League in the first round (4th overall) in the 2019 draft out of Windsor. The 6-foot-2, 313-pounder, played in all 18 games with 10 starts during his first season. After the 2020 season was canceled, Desjarlais played in all 14 games during a shortened 2021 season and earned a West Division All-Star selection after helping the Blue Bombers win the Grey Cup.
 

NomarsFool

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So, there's been lots of discussion about how Josh Allen and Mahomes and all these mobile quarterbacks are the future of the NFL, and that the Patriots are screwed because Mac Jones is not that type of player.

However, does the rise of those types of players create an opportunity for the Patriots? Football is a pretty unique sport because the offense and defense you put on the field are completely different players. If the league in general makes adaptations in their defensive personnel to develop players and schemes to stop Allen/Mahomes, that should in theory mean they are de-emphasizing or making themselves vulnerable to other types of quarterbacks, right?

Does this create an opportunity for Mac to actually do better, than if the "typical" quarterback was more of a pocket passer like he is?

Now, the caveat to this is that schemes are adjustable, so a team can run defense A against Allen/Mahomes and defense B against Mac Jones. But, from a personell standpoint - that doesn't work quite as well. If you are going to spend a lot of your assets to have super fast linemen, for example (or whatever is necessary to stop Allen/Mahomes), you won't have the assets to have super strong linemen to rush a pocket passer (or whatever you would use in that situation).

There could also be an advantage on the offensive side, as well. If there are certain types of weapons that Allen/Mahomes types of QBs work well with, there should be a high demand for those types of accessory players, but not as much for the types of players that might work better with a pocket passer. That would, potentially, make it easier for the Patriots to acquire the types of players that will work well in a Mac Jones type of system.
 

tims4wins

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Reiss's Sunday notebook leads with a discussion of getting Jonnu Smith more involved in the offense

https://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/95476/unlocking-jonnu-smiths-potential-a-new-england-patriots-priority-for-2022
I was excited when I first started reading the notes, but honestly it really didn’t give me too much hope aside from the “normal” year 1 to year 2 potential for improvement, which may or may not happen. If I set the O/U on his 2022 catches at 40, would anyone go O? What would the figure have to be to bet O? 35? 32?
 

E5 Yaz

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I was excited when I first started reading the notes, but honestly it really didn’t give me too much hope aside from the “normal” year 1 to year 2 potential for improvement, which may or may not happen. If I set the O/U on his 2022 catches at 40, would anyone go O? What would the figure have to be to bet O? 35? 32?
I thought the key sentence was comparing Smith's progress in the system to Henry's. Whether it's Josh or a new OC, they've got to find a way to incorporate Smith into their system instead of the other way around
 

tims4wins

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I thought the key sentence was comparing Smith's progress in the system to Henry's. Whether it's Josh or a new OC, they've got to find a way to incorporate Smith into their system instead of the other way around
I didn’t realize Henry participated in voluntary camps while Smith didn’t. That plus Mac being able to run with the 1s all off-season provides a glimmer of hope. That said it would be nice if Jonnu participates this year…
 

BigSoxFan

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I didn’t realize Henry participated in voluntary camps while Smith didn’t. That plus Mac being able to run with the 1s all off-season provides a glimmer of hope. That said it would be nice if Jonnu participates this year…
If Jonnu doesn’t participate this year given the train wreck of his 2021 season, that wouldn’t be the best look.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Bill O’Brien makes a ton of sense given he’s a good coach, has served in the role previously, and it would be a good opportunity for him if his eventual goal is to get another NFL head coaching job.

There aren’t any obvious internal candidates. Mick Lombardi, who is going into his 12th year of pro coaching and is currently WR coach, I guess? Also, McDaniels may take whoever internally may have been the best candidate to be the Raiders OC anyways.
 

slamminsammya

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Does anyone else feel like getting someone new in there is a good thing for this offense? I feel like the offense was way more forward thinking when they had O'Brien in there, it got a bit stale and old school the past few years with McDaniels. It is impossible for me to parse how much of that is due to personnel, but I am excited to see if they start modernizing a bit more with someone else.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Does anyone else feel like getting someone new in there is a good thing for this offense? I feel like the offense was way more forward thinking when they had O'Brien in there, it got a bit stale and old school the past few years with McDaniels. It is impossible for me to parse how much of that is due to personnel, but I am excited to see if they start modernizing a bit more with someone else.
Which were the O'Brien years?
 

PedroKsBambino

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O’Brien isn’t new, but he’s been gone a decade and worked in college and pros since he left, so there’s surely some new concepts coming back with him too.

Hard to know if this is right move for him—I suppose it would be. If he wanted college gig he likely would have been more visible around those this cycle right?
 

Saints Rest

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A new OC will likely be. significant change for the Pats offense in 2022.

Ideally in the offseason, I'd like to see these things happen:
  • Trade Wynn for Calvin Ridley. I'm guessing we'd have to sweeten the pot a bit, but maybe that's no worse than a pick swap.
  • Re-sign Trent Brown, move him back to LT.
  • Re-sign Ted Karras at LG.
  • Put Onwenu back at RT.
I don't think any of those things are terribly costly, or wildly unrealistic. I think they could yield big dividends regardless of who is calling the plays.
 

JM3

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So, there's been lots of discussion about how Josh Allen and Mahomes and all these mobile quarterbacks are the future of the NFL, and that the Patriots are screwed because Mac Jones is not that type of player.

However, does the rise of those types of players create an opportunity for the Patriots? Football is a pretty unique sport because the offense and defense you put on the field are completely different players. If the league in general makes adaptations in their defensive personnel to develop players and schemes to stop Allen/Mahomes, that should in theory mean they are de-emphasizing or making themselves vulnerable to other types of quarterbacks, right?

Does this create an opportunity for Mac to actually do better, than if the "typical" quarterback was more of a pocket passer like he is?

Now, the caveat to this is that schemes are adjustable, so a team can run defense A against Allen/Mahomes and defense B against Mac Jones. But, from a personell standpoint - that doesn't work quite as well. If you are going to spend a lot of your assets to have super fast linemen, for example (or whatever is necessary to stop Allen/Mahomes), you won't have the assets to have super strong linemen to rush a pocket passer (or whatever you would use in that situation).

There could also be an advantage on the offensive side, as well. If there are certain types of weapons that Allen/Mahomes types of QBs work well with, there should be a high demand for those types of accessory players, but not as much for the types of players that might work better with a pocket passer. That would, potentially, make it easier for the Patriots to acquire the types of players that will work well in a Mac Jones type of system.
The problem is that Mahomes/Allen can also be pocket passers. With much stronger arms. They just have the extra weapons to make defenses scheme against the other things they can do as well & protect against the whole field, vertically & horizontally.
 

Harry Hooper

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A new OC will likely be. significant change for the Pats offense in 2022.

Ideally in the offseason, I'd like to see these things happen:
  • Trade Wynn for Calvin Ridley. I'm guessing we'd have to sweeten the pot a bit, but maybe that's no worse than a pick swap.
  • Re-sign Trent Brown, move him back to LT.
  • Re-sign Ted Karras at LG.
  • Put Onwenu back at RT.
I don't think any of those things are terribly costly, or wildly unrealistic. I think they could yield big dividends regardless of who is calling the plays.
Bedard has reported several times that indications are Trent Brown is no longer in demand in Foxboro.
 

GB5

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Couldn’t find a catch all pats off-season rumor thread so I figured I would post it here, but a few nfl Twitter rumors that the Pats are interested in Robby Anderson and if they get him it appears they will try to unload Agholor
 

DJnVa

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It would actually be hilarious if belichick snagged him for a 7th knowing he’d lose the year.
And that Beliechick actually texted him the DraftKings info, saying they both get a bonus if he signs up. LONG GAME!
 

E5 Yaz

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Peter King has a suggestion:

Jarvis Landry. There is no better fit of player to team in the next week than the Cleveland wide receiver to New England. It would take Landry 15 minutes to become one of Bill Belichick’s favorites of recent years. Not sure if Landry will be cut by the Browns or if they can get a low pick for him in trade, but his gritty and no-BS style on and off the field fits the Pats perfectly.
 

Average Game James

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Peter King has a suggestion:

Jarvis Landry. There is no better fit of player to team in the next week than the Cleveland wide receiver to New England. It would take Landry 15 minutes to become one of Bill Belichick’s favorites of recent years. Not sure if Landry will be cut by the Browns or if they can get a low pick for him in trade, but his gritty and no-BS style on and off the field fits the Pats perfectly.
View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1503405168477491200?s=20&t=_KIscQVrKuCNFkyokIw2xg


Landry released, per Schefter
 

Jungleland

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For all the talk of needing a true #1 receiver, the idea of adding another player at similar caliber to Bourne is still a huge improvement over what they’ve gotten from Harry. I think Lazard is likely to come in at less $ and provide more of a vertical threat than Landry would, but Landry would fill the slot role more naturally than Meyers or Bourne and that could help in itself.
 

DJnVa

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For all the talk of needing a true #1 receiver, the idea of adding another player at similar caliber to Bourne is still a huge improvement over what they’ve gotten from Harry. I think Lazard is likely to come in at less $ and provide more of a vertical threat than Landry would, but Landry would fill the slot role more naturally than Meyers or Bourne and that could help in itself.
Maybe Lazard's former teammate?

 

Jungleland

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Interesting. Not a bad player, but they already have a fast guy with drop issues on the roster.
 

Jungleland

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7 in 2020, though ironically that was his overall best season otherwise. He just feels a bit like a guy who would have taken a bigger leap by now if he was going to.
 

DJnVa

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7 in 2020, though ironically that was his overall best season otherwise. He just feels a bit like a guy who would have taken a bigger leap by now if he was going to.
Yeah---8 in his other 3 seasons combined though, so I'd guess 2020 was just a one-off. It's hard to know how he'd do in a bigger role that he simply wasn't going to get in GB with Adams, Jones, and Lazard.

As with any deal though, it's about the cost.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah---8 in his other 3 seasons combined though, so I'd guess 2020 was just a one-off. It's hard to know how he'd do in a bigger role that he simply wasn't going to get in GB with Adams, Jones, and Lazard.

As with any deal though, it's about the cost.
Drops are a pretty fake stat, lot of subjectivity there. I look at his catch rate and I worry. If you are catching less than 50% of your targets I don't care if you didn't get credited with a drop, something is going wrong there, whether it be poor routes, bad attack of the ball, etc. He's playing with Aaron Rodgers, I don't for a minute buy he had like 40% uncatchable targets.
 

Harry Hooper

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Peter King has a suggestion:

Jarvis Landry. There is no better fit of player to team in the next week than the Cleveland wide receiver to New England. It would take Landry 15 minutes to become one of Bill Belichick’s favorites of recent years. Not sure if Landry will be cut by the Browns or if they can get a low pick for him in trade, but his gritty and no-BS style on and off the field fits the Pats perfectly.
King really should be aware of BB being a big Landry fan already as was evidenced by the clips of BB coaching his defense for a ( Mic'D Up?) Pats-Dolphins game a few years ago.
 

rodderick

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Drops are a pretty fake stat, lot of subjectivity there. I look at his catch rate and I worry. If you are catching less than 50% of your targets I don't care if you didn't get credited with a drop, something is going wrong there, whether it be poor routes, bad attack of the ball, etc. He's playing with Aaron Rodgers, I don't for a minute buy he had like 40% uncatchable targets.
I mean, he had the highest average depth of target of any receiver with 30+ catches last year. So yeah, I think there's a pretty big chance a lot of his targets were uncatchable.
 

E5 Yaz

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Looks like Josh's exit is going to result in some meaningful changes. I continue to worry about Mac getting absolutely annihilated in this offense they're concocting.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1505593485751107584?t=zw5QApRzlejtpS7CcEoqdg&s=19

View: https://twitter.com/RNBWCV/status/1505562143910944776?t=e_JDQOFqeU6-RQb4xPi2zA&s=19
Reiss addressed this today:

Jonnu for Jakob: Fullback Jakob Johnson played 27.9% of the snaps last season, while tight end Jonnu Smith played 46.8%. That isn't a high enough total for Smith after he signed a four-year, $50 million contract with $31.25 million guaranteed. With Johnson joining the Raiders, it would make sense that Smith takes over some of that workload, even though they have contrasting playing styles. The Patriots easily could have re-signed Johnson (his deal included a minimum salary with just $200,000 guaranteed), and their lack of motivation to do so leads back to the idea of getting more out of Smith as a complement to Henry (68.5% playing time). Thus, it wouldn't be a surprise if the traditional fullback isn't as big a part of the offense in 2022.
 

SMU_Sox

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I am surprised by this. 1) Their 21 package was really effective. 2) Jakob was cheap and effective. 3) this indicates a switch to more 12 as their secondary look and I am skeptical that Jonnu and Henry can coexist well on the field at once.

14% of their cap this year is tied to their tight ends. So it makes sense that they either figure out if this works in 2022 or cut ties with one of their TEs after 2022. Jonnu, for example, is very cuttable next year.

Last year they had a 47% pass success and 45% run success rate out of 12 and a 49% pass success and 51% run success rate out of 21. If Jonnu struggled with integration perhaps he is going to be more comfortable in 2022. In 12 he is the guy you'd think would be the in-line guy and not the FB TE or the slot. Henry though really struggles as a blocker. Jonnu struggled too though as a blocker last year. So who is their in-line guy in 12? Who is the slot or the blocker? And is Agholor, Bourne or Meyers, Henry, and Jonnu a better grouping than Agholor, Bourne, Meyers, and one of Jonnu or Henry? IMO their 11 is vastly superior.
 

BaseballJones

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So as of now....

QB group: Jones, Hoyer, Stidham
RB group: Harris, Stevenson, White, Montgomery (kicking the tires on Fournette)
TE group: Henry, Smith, Asiasi, Keene
WR group: Agholor, Meyers, Bourne, Harry, Nixon, Perry
OL group: Brown, Wynn, Onwenu, Andrews, Herron, Durant, Ferentz, Desjarlais, Hambright, Cajuste, Sherman

I'd love to see another quality OL added, and one more veteran WR. I'd also like to see them draft an OL and WR. RB group is outstanding. QB room is fine. TEs are pretty good, because Henry is excellent and Smith...well...if he was really good then we could say the TE group is excellent. But the jury is still out on Smith, IMO. The WR group is ok for the first three guys, IMO. But after that it's super thin and not good. They really need to add something there.

What would be interesting to me would be to go with a 2-RB set like the old days in the 80s when they ran Collins and James at the same time. If you had, say, Stevenson and Montgomery in the backfield, with Henry at TE and Bourne and Meyers at WR, you could throw to any of five guys. And you'd not know which RB might get the ball. I know that's going back in time in terms of offensive concept, so maybe modern defenses would have no problem defending it. But it might be worth trying at least.
 

SMU_Sox

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Coastal Carolina has been implementing a neat 20 and 21 package to go against the lighter and faster defenses. It stretches defenses and then pounds them too. It’s more option-based so it doesn’t directly translate but you could probably borrow some concepts from them.
 

SMU_Sox

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Building on that @BaseballJones while it looks dim for Asiasi and Keene there is still a small chance that Asiasi could develop into an in-line guy and Keene more of a do-it-all type including FB blocking. It wouldn’t surprise me if they added another tight end to the mix in the draft to get a guy in the system and cut one of the other two rookie contract guys in camp.
 

Cellar-Door

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I do think Jonnu is going to play more H-back or whatever you choose to call it, where he either lines up in the backfield (with the option to motion out) or starts on the line and motions into the backfield.
He's been good rushing the ball in his career, and they could use some of the old Hernandez plays (interestingly, back when he was with the Titans that was mentioned as something they should do more of with him as well).
 

BaseballJones

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Jonnu for his career has 15 rushes for 122 yards, a neat 8.1 average. They could do worse than getting him a few more rushing plays.
 

SMU_Sox

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The problem is for 12 to work and for Jonnu to be good in that role you need an in-line TE. We are once again at that impass. Neither Jonnu nor Henry is that guy sadly. Maybe they can live with bad blocking from Henry? Maybe with Jonnu, as others have mentioned (HT Dogman), this was a developmental or foundational year for him. I wish we knew their thoughts on the tight end room: what they thought the roles would be, why they didn't work out better together in 12, and why they think think year will be different.
 

Saints Rest

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That's terrific news! I think that having Wynn, Brown, Andrews, Onwenu, and Herron on board, plus a potential mid-round draft pick, they likely will be able to put out a strong O-line with a number of different configurations at this point.
  • Andrews -- the one positional lock at center.
  • Wynn -- LT incumbent, but could be get shifted inside to LG?
  • Onwenu -- Back to LG? That didn't work all that well, but maybe he tries RG this year with Brown to his right? Pity the lest side of a defense's front 7 with that 750 lbs of blocking rumbling your way. Or maybe he gets back to RT where he was so so good in 2020, with Brown back to LT (assuming Wynn was moved to LG).
  • Brown -- The Tower of Power at one tackle spot.
  • Herron -- If the Herron we saw in the second half of the season is indicative of his growth, then maybe he can lock down LT instead of Wynn.
  • Draft pick -- Finding a 4th or 5th rounder to play guard seems within the realm of possibility.
I also think it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Brown under contract might make Wynn trade bait.
 

SMU_Sox

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I think your most likely scenario is
Wynn - Ferentz/Draft-Pick/FA - Andrews - Onwenu (he’s a traditional RG run blocker) - Brown.
They need one more starter. They could shuffle the other 3 around but if they acquired an LG everything works out nicely.

There are a lot of options day 2-3 for competition. Sean Rhyan is my day 2 choice as of now. He was a multi year starter at LT but profiles as an OG in the NFL.
 

Saints Rest

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I think your most likely scenario is
Wynn - Ferentz/Draft-Pick/FA - Andrews - Onwenu (he’s a traditional RG run blocker) - Brown.
They need one more starter. They could shuffle the other 3 around but if they acquired an LG everything works out nicely.

There are a lot of options day 2-3 for competition. Sean Rhyan is my day 2 choice as of now. He was a multi year starter at LT but profiles as an OG in the NFL.
I agree that that is most likely, but a week ago, I'm sure that "most likely" included Mason at RG.