Pacquiao vs. Mayweather 5/2: Better late than never!

Infield Infidel

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Mayweather was brilliant down the stretch. But early, I guess headlocks count as defense but those neutralized Manny's best chance for an early KO. He couldn't get in rhythm even though he won a couple rounds early. After round 6 though, it was all Mayweather, with actual defensive wizardry. 
 

luckiestman

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Yeah, this is a streetfight to satisfy the average man's blood lust. But this isn't true boxing - true boxing is what Maywether displayed this evening.  And I say that as someone who was rooting for Pacquiao.
 
 
Don't go crazy the other way man. That was still true boxing.
 

OCST

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luckiestman said:
 
 
Don't go crazy the other way man. That was still true boxing.
I remember Hagler saying that because Hearns had the reach advantage, he (Hagler) thought that his best chance was to fight his way through Hearns' jab and get inside, even though he knew he would take a terrible beating in the process.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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luckiestman said:
 
 
Don't go crazy the other way man. That was still true boxing.
Nope.  It was a streetfight.  Very entertaining and I love me some Marvelous Marvin but that wasn't smart fighting by either side.
 

Marciano490

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BigSoxFan said:
Question for the boxing guys. Which boxer came the closest to beating Mayweather and what did he do that a past-his-prime Pacquiao couldn't? Would a younger Pacquiao have had a chance against a 38 year-old Mayweather? Has anyone else tried to emulate Mayweather's style and use it against him?
Cotto probably. Corrales mightve had a shot if he'd not been such a loon. Wouldve loved to see Paul Williams fight Mayweather.
 

Bongorific

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If you're going to complain about the PPV I don't know why you bothered watching. Every Mayweather is just like this. And it's brilliant. It's like saying I love football but I hated the Steel Curtain Steelers.

But he's still a buttmunch.
 

Greg29fan

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BigSoxFan said:
Question for the boxing guys. Which boxer came the closest to beating Mayweather and what did he do that a past-his-prime Pacquiao couldn't? Would a younger Pacquiao have had a chance against a 38 year-old Mayweather? Has anyone else tried to emulate Mayweather's style and use it against him?
 
Probably Jose Luis Castillo in their first fight.  And that was because Floyd was hurt (shoulder).  He won their immediate rematch pretty handily.
 

Cellar-Door

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BigSoxFan said:
Question for the boxing guys. Which boxer came the closest to beating Mayweather and what did he do that a past-his-prime Pacquiao couldn't? Would a younger Pacquiao have had a chance against a 38 year-old Mayweather? Has anyone else tried to emulate Mayweather's style and use it against him?
De La Hoya is the only guy to win from a judge, and Maidana got a draw from one judge.
De La Hoya scored a lot early with his jab and threw more punches. But he ran out of gas late and didn't sit on the lead, letting Mayweather sucker him into advancing so he could slip and counter.
Maidana just waded in and threw an insane number of punches and waded in, basically assuming Mayweather couldn't knock him out and trying to turn it into a brawl.
 
I heard the Castillo fight was close, but I've never seen it.
 

8slim

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Infield Infidel said:
I don't think I'm a boxing guy, but I think Castillo, who IMHO lost a terrible decision. But back then Floyd was easier to rope into a brawl. 
I was at that fight. Totally thought Castillo won. Although when I re-watched it a week later I thought Mayweather won.
 

ElUno20

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That was a beautiful boxing performance. The sport will get absolutely killed by the public and the media for the fight being boring and sucking but fuck 'em.

Floyd disarmed manny so easily and predictably that my only disappointment is really in the perennial bullshit trainer of the year. Manny is the furthest thing from a smart fighter but he figured out a few counters down the stretch. The problem was plan A. Roach was shit in his preparation. Floyd never had to even lay out the full arsenal. He stayed 1, that's it just 1, step out of range and it completely neutered Manny. Then he just added the straight right hand and it was a walk in the park.
 

luckiestman

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Marciano490 said:
Cotto probably. Corrales mightve had a shot if he'd not been such a loon. Wouldve loved to see Paul Williams fight Mayweather.
 
 
 
 
I remember watching the Corrales fight and being shocked by the beating Floyd gave him. I really liked Chico going into that fight. Paul Williams was so tall for Floyd, was that fight rumored? The first Castillo fight Floyd arguably lost.
 
My thoughts, Manny in his prime on his best day never had the technical skills to beat Floyd. He could have gotten lucky though, shit happens. Floyd is too technically sound. 
 
Julio Caesar Chavez  at 140 would have been the worst stylistic matchup I can think of for Floyd. Floyd would still probably win. It is hard for me to think about Duran or Ray Leonard against Floyd. Those guys would probably win. 
 

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Cellar-Door said:
De La Hoya is the only guy to win from a judge, and Maidana got a draw from one judge.
De La Hoya scored a lot early with his jab and threw more punches. But he ran out of gas late and didn't sit on the lead, letting Mayweather sucker him into advancing so he could slip and counter.
Maidana just waded in and threw an insane number of punches and waded in, basically assuming Mayweather couldn't knock him out and trying to turn it into a brawl.
 
I heard the Castillo fight was close, but I've never seen it.
Yeah. Forgot DLH. I had him winning 7-5, but he ditched the jab.
 

luckiestman

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Has anyone else tried to emulate Mayweather's style and use it against him?
 
 
I don;t know about this exactly, but the slickest fighter he fought was Zab Judah. Judah was doing well in that fight, then there was some weird brawl with Roger Mayweather getting involved, my memory is a little hazy on it
 

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Only guy I have seen been able to match Floyd's speed was Zab Judah. Zab fought very well the first four rounds, but Floyd's superior technique allowed him to turn the tide.
 

Greg29fan

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I don;t know about this exactly, but the slickest fighter he fought was Zab Judah. Judah was doing well in that fight, then there was some weird brawl with Roger Mayweather getting involved, my memory is a little hazy on it
 
Judah hit Floyd with a low blow and a rabbit punch and all Hell broke loose.  Floyd had taken control of the fight well before then though.
 

PseuFighter

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if boxing truly "dies" after tonight, i have to hand it to everyone involved in creating one last epic cash grab.
 

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Judah should have scored a knockdown vs. Mayweather.  He did well early and was an equal in quickness.
 

Cellar-Door

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i really wonder how this would have gone in say 2007- 2008. That was the period where Mayweather was pretty unimpressive vs. DLH. Followed by Pacquiao just destroying DLH. I feel like Manny was faster, hit harder, and was more aggressive than he was tonight.
 

kenneycb

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BigSoxFan said:
Question for the boxing guys. Which boxer came the closest to beating Mayweather and what did he do that a past-his-prime Pacquiao couldn't? Would a younger Pacquiao have had a chance against a 38 year-old Mayweather? Has anyone else tried to emulate Mayweather's style and use it against him?
Mosley is basically the only person to catch Mayweather flush (twice) and make him battle to finish out a round.

Agree with Marciano that the fight was up for grabs before Mayweather put on a clinic for the last 4-5 rounds. Manny threw punches but so few connected. Even when Floyd was on the ropes with his hands up in the 3rd(?) he only got about 1.5 good body shots. Very, very minimal damage.
 

kenneycb

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PseuFighter said:
if boxing truly "dies" after tonight, i have to hand it to everyone involved in creating one last epic cash grab.
And for the public to get suckered into another Mayweather fight. Proving again that people are stupid. Or that Mayweather is basically the greatest heel since Stone Cold.
 

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Cellar-Door said:
i really wonder how this would have gone in say 2007- 2008. That was the period where Mayweather was pretty unimpressive vs. DLH. Followed by Pacquiao just destroying DLH. I feel like Manny was faster, hit harder, and was more aggressive than he was tonight.
 
Mayweather was too smart to make that fight happen.  He is the best businessman athlete.....maybe ever.  His fights were exactly like this for the last 3 years or so.....but the PPV buys were huge.  And he waited patiently for Pac's skills to diminish enough where he wouldn't be a threat yet STILL get the HUGE money grab.  (very few fighters are ever the same after they get knocked out COLD) 
 
Money Mayweather.  The most appropriate nickname for a professional athlete ever.  This fight is going to be the most watched and highest grossing fight of all time.  And no one is getting a refund. 
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Yeah, I don't like telling people they don't know what they're talking about, but if you don't think Mayweather was trying to win, you don't know what you're talking about.
 
He completely neutralized Pac.
 
EDIT: Not to mention Pac had something to do with what Mayweather could do.
Oh, you can tell me. That was the first fight I've seen since Tyson-Holyfield.
 

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That wasn't a disappointment if you've seen Floyd fight. But its going to cure people from buying a PPV fight for a while. 
 
I wasn't surprised the defense worked so well for Floyd, but I was a bit surprised how easily Floyd escaped being trapped in a corner. I figured the open ring defense would show itself as Floyd is a master and was quicker, especially in the late rounds. But I thought Manny would be strong enough and he would provide enough punching action to keep him in the corner once he got him there. So I was a bit surprised how easily Floyd was able to duck and escape, willing to take possibly one shot to get out, which shows me he wasn't really worried about one punch hurting him. Manny did zero damage and the way he ran out of gas was pretty evident he's toast at 152.
 
I watched Hagler-Hearns then went to bed. 
 

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8slim said:
Time to watch Hagler-Hearns on YouTube.
 
After that check out Hagler versus John "The Beast" Mugabe. - edit to add videos
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttRrZZAwAZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23K7d5SWrPM
 
OilCanShotTupac said:
Holy shit, that is the most riveting 11 minutes you will ever see
 
I can't believe you never saw that fight.  Seeing that for the first time must be like just finding out about Breaking Bad.  PS - check out the Mugabe fight I mentioned.
 
 
I didn't see the fight last night but from the sound of it, neither guy hurt nor anywhere near physically spent, my belief that title fights should still be 15 rounds, remains intact
 

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I didn't get the fight, but it sounds like it went exactly as I thought it would.
 
It's hard to hurt someone you can't hit.  I can't stand Floyd, but wow - he's just an incredible fighter.
 

mikeford

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kenneycb said:
And for the public to get suckered into another Mayweather fight. Proving again that people are stupid. Or that Mayweather is basically the greatest heel since Stone Cold.
Point of order: Stone Cold Steve Austin was not a heel until very late in his career and his heel turn went over like a wet fart. 
 

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http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/12811381/manny-pacquiao-fought-floyd-mayweather-injured-right-shoulder-denied-anti-inflammatory-shot-locker-room
 
So the Pacquiao camp says he fought with an injured right rotator cuff, which he sustained during training and reinjured during the third round.
 
I'm one of the boxing novice's who has only a superficial understanding of the sport, so I appeal to the knowledgeable boxing fans here - is this just excuse making and sour grapes, or do you think Pacquiao's performance indicated he had a greatly diminished right hand?
 

rymflaherty

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If he reinjured it during the third round, I didn't see anything those first two rounds that suggested the fight would have gone any differently (assuming those were the rounds he was "healthy").
 
FWIW, I found the fight to be slightly more entertaining than I expected. Until proven otherwise I expect Mayweather to be able to fight his fight.  I spent my $100 expecting that, but curious to see if Pacquioa could impose his will and turn it into more of an "action fight". We know that didn't happen, but the fact Manny was even able to clearly win a couple rounds and at least get in a a few clean shots is why it slightly surpassed my expectations.
 

luckiestman

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LeftyTG said:
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/12811381/manny-pacquiao-fought-floyd-mayweather-injured-right-shoulder-denied-anti-inflammatory-shot-locker-room
 
So the Pacquiao camp says he fought with an injured right rotator cuff, which he sustained during training and reinjured during the third round.
 
I'm one of the boxing novice's who has only a superficial understanding of the sport, so I appeal to the knowledgeable boxing fans here - is this just excuse making and sour grapes, or do you think Pacquiao's performance indicated he had a greatly diminished right hand?
 
It could be true, but even if it is it is still excuse making. 
 

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I watched the fight today. It was boring. As expected. But there really is something incredible in watching Floyd move so fast for so long. His body control and punch avoidance is like a superhero 6th sense. He is nearly unhittable. And that in itself is pretty impressive. Because Manny isn't some slow footed, slow punching fool.
 
But the fight itself, artistry of boxing notwithstanding, was boring. Someone called Floyd a matador upthread. That is right. It was like a bull fight, not a boxing match.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Montana Fan said:
 
After that check out Hagler versus John "The Beast" Mugabe. - edit to add videos
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttRrZZAwAZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23K7d5SWrPM
 
 
I can't believe you never saw that fight.  Seeing that for the first time must be like just finding out about Breaking Bad.  PS - check out the Mugabe fight I mentioned.
 
 
I didn't see the fight last night but from the sound of it, neither guy hurt nor anywhere near physically spent, my belief that title fights should still be 15 rounds, remains intact
 
Hagler hit Mugabe with at least 20 shots in the 6th round that would have caved in the side of the head of most mere mortals.  Mugabe may have had the strongest chin I've ever seen, at least in that fight.  I still don't think Hagler even knocked him out, I think Mugabe was just too tired to get up and knew the fight was lost.  But jesus, it's almost hard to watch the middle minute and a half or so of that round.  Hagler is literally just teeing off on Mugabe, and it must have felt like he was just hitting an oak tree, because Mugabe was just taking each shot and moving on.  Unbelievable stuff.  
 

Marciano490

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Hagler hated Mugabe. Goody always talked about how bad he wanted to destroy him.
 

Myt1

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Just watched it, gave Pacquiao rounds 4, 6, 9, and 10, 116-112 Mayweather.
 
I might have warned Mayweather for holding early, but there wasn't much there.  5 years ago it may have been a different fight, as Manny's lost some speed, but he didn't take an angle all night.
 

Kliq

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To draw a cross-sports comparison, Mayweather is like the Kareem of boxing. Someone who dominated the sport, but did it in such a monotonous way that actually watching them operate wasn't very interesting for the general public. Like Kareem, Floyd is a natural villain, although as moody as Kareem could be, he wasn't a criminal like Floyd. I think part of the reason is that Floyd perpetuates this image of being so flashy so to the general public, you would imagine him to be an flashy, exciting guy to watch box. I think that increased expectations for the fight but most fans unfamiliar to boxing so Floyd do the exact opposite of what you thought you would see, even if his execution was nearly flawless in the fight.
 

Marciano490

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Myt1 said:
Just watched it, gave Pacquiao rounds 4, 6, 9, and 10, 116-112 Mayweather.
 
I might have warned Mayweather for holding early, but there wasn't much there.  5 years ago it may have been a different fight, as Manny's lost some speed, but he didn't take an angle all night.
Not round 3? It was a really hard fight to score and one of those fights that underscores the problems with boxing's scoring system. I think Manny deserves credit for always being the aggressor and pressing the action. He had the more impressive flurries and had Floyd in danger such as it was more often than Floyd. I was surprised the punch stats were so askew.

The rotator cuff stuff is weird. I tore mine lifting but don't remember it affecting my fighting unless I punched from a weird angle. Speaking of which, you're right that Manny should've taken more angles. Especially with Floyd covered up on the ropes, the move is to step to the side and go to the body. He didn't do that once.
 

Myt1

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I probably transposed 3 and 4. 
 
You're absolutely right about not stepping and going to the body.  It seemed almost as if Floyd was baiting him to do so, because there were a number of times up against the ropes where he'd go to a high guard and then just shake his head after a flurry that mostly got blocked by his arms.  Is it more difficult to do that as a southpaw facing a conventional fighter?  It did seem that Manny went to the body more often than he usually does, but he could have probably done it twice as often.
 

Marciano490

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It's not so much a conventional/southpaw thing. That just effects which way you pivot and which punch you throw. For example, if Floyd's on the ropes covered up and none of Manny's punches are getting through, one tactic would be for him to swing his back foot out to the left so he's perpendicular to Floyd rather than straight on.  After kicking out to that angle, there should be openings to the body from lead hooks or to the back/side of the head from overhand lefts that weren't necessarily there when they were fronting each other.
 
The difficulty was more Floyd's defensive posture.  Some fighters against the ropes maintain their stances because they want to be in a position to punch with power. Of course, in their regular fighting stances, they remain open to their opponent's punches, but now are entirely reliant on their gloves and ability to duck and slip, because they don't have any room to maneuver with their backs against the ropes.  What Floyd does his front his opponent or put his back entirely against the ropes.  Instead of being in a 3 quarter turn like a normal fighting stance, he faces his entire torso and head forward and covers them both with his gloves and tucked forearms.  His back, liver and kidneys are protected by the ropes and unreachable.  While this cuts his ability to punch effectively, it essentially ensures that no punches will get through.  Even if Manny popped out to an angle, Floyd is still almost entirely covered up so there would be no new openings to exploit.
 

8slim

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Marciano490 said:
It's not so much a conventional/southpaw thing. That just effects which way you pivot and which punch you throw. For example, if Floyd's on the ropes covered up and none of Manny's punches are getting through, one tactic would be for him to swing his back foot out to the left so he's perpendicular to Floyd rather than straight on.  After kicking out to that angle, there should be openings to the body from lead hooks or to the back/side of the head from overhand lefts that weren't necessarily there when they were fronting each other.
 
The difficulty was more Floyd's defensive posture.  Some fighters against the ropes maintain their stances because they want to be in a position to punch with power. Of course, in their regular fighting stances, they remain open to their opponent's punches, but now are entirely reliant on their gloves and ability to duck and slip, because they don't have any room to maneuver with their backs against the ropes.  What Floyd does his front his opponent or put his back entirely against the ropes.  Instead of being in a 3 quarter turn like a normal fighting stance, he faces his entire torso and head forward and covers them both with his gloves and tucked forearms.  His back, liver and kidneys are protected by the ropes and unreachable.  While this cuts his ability to punch effectively, it essentially ensures that no punches will get through.  Even if Manny popped out to an angle, Floyd is still almost entirely covered up so there would be no new openings to exploit.
 
That's fascinating, thanks Marciano.
 
If only Floyd's wives and girlfriends could do the same.
 

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Yes, that may be the most informative and unassailably accurate answer I've ever gotten to a question on this site. That's exactly what was going on and exactly the stance I was talking about.

Floyd really is a fucking genius.
 

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SumnerH said:
 
I think he's already ahead of Tyson, though.  At least close.
 
But, yeah, Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, and Henry Armstrong in lower weight classes and Ali, Duran, Louis, and Johnson for heavys are no brainers, with cases for a bunch more.
 
Duran was no heavyweight. He fought over of his fights at lightweight (and may be the greatest lightweight of alltime).
 
I don't know why Julio Cesar Chavez doesn't get more love. 
 

Marciano490

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Yes, that may be the most informative and unassailably accurate answer I've ever gotten to a question on this site. That's exactly what was going on and exactly the stance I was talking about.

Floyd really is a fucking genius.
 
Especially considering he was the larger fighter.  The other tactic to combat what Floyd was doing - something Cotto had some success with - is to bully your opponent against the ropes.  Lean on them.  Take out their ribs.  Duck in close and chop at their hips the way Hopkins does.  Grind your head into theirs, get some butts in, some elbows.  But, Manny wasn't strong enough to pull that with Floyd.  Nor was he strong enough to flip Floyd.  That is, in a clinch if you grab your opponent by his elbows before he wraps you up, you can twist him round, jump back a half step for space and land clean shots while they're reorienting themselves.
 
WayBackVazquez said:
 
Duran was no heavyweight. He fought over of his fights at lightweight (and may be the greatest lightweight of alltime).
 
I don't know why Julio Cesar Chavez doesn't get more love. 
 
Richard Steele certainly gave him lots of love.
 

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WayBackVazquez said:
Duran was no heavyweight. He fought over of his fights at lightweight (and may be the greatest lightweight of alltime).
 
I don't know why Julio Cesar Chavez doesn't get more love.
Yeah, my bad.

SumnerH said:
EDIT: And I have no idea how Duran got on the heavy list.  Editing gone awry.
 

Marciano490

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Duran had an all-time great nickname - Manos de Piedra.
 
A great fighter, but 0-2 versus Petronelli's fighters.  Marvin beat him by UD and my man Robbie took a SD too.
 

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Hey Marciano I really enjoyed the description of why Floyd was so effective when he was backed up against the ropes/corners.
I loved the technical and pyschological aspect that goes on. I may get into boxing. Loved reading your posts.
 

Marciano490

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ilol@u said:
Hey Marciano I really enjoyed the description of why Floyd was so effective when he was backed up against the ropes/corners.
I loved the technical and pyschological aspect that goes on. I may get into boxing. Loved reading your posts.
 
Thanks! That's great to hear.  I totally get where people are coming from, because when I watch UFC fighters on the ground and am unable to understand the science and positioning, I tend to get bored.  If I have time, maybe I can do a little tutorial session, posting clips here and there and discussing what the fighters are doing and why. 
 
It's a great time to get into boxing - despite all the coffin calls, there are a ton of great fights coming up, including this weekend when Canelo goes on free HBO.  There should be a lot more action in that fight; both boxers are straight ahead punchers who don't bother much with defense.