Omer Asik

nighthob

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As a Rockets' fan I find myself nightly praying that they placate him for the time being and ship Howard back to LA at the deadline for Gashole and a first round pick swap. And, of course, that they use the new cap space on James or Bosh this summer.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, I know, Morey'd never get another free agent if he did it. It's still fun to dream about.
 

radsoxfan

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knucklecup said:
Early AM Trade Machine fun:
 
Boston gets: Omer Asik
Houston gets: Brandon Bass, MarShon Brooks
 
I don't think Ainge is actively tanking, but I also don't think he's in the market for short term veteran upgrades.  The team's window clearly is not within the next 1-2 seasons. Asik certainly would help short term, but I'm not sure what the point is from the Celtics perspective.  I'm sure Ainge would love to trade a ton of the roster right now, but it only makes sense if you're getting rookies, draft picks, or more cap space.
 
And of course, from the Rockets perspective, this trade is awful anyway. They can do better than Bass for Asik.
 
I am curious to see where Asik ends up, and think he will most likely be traded.  But hard to see how the Celtics are in that market.  
 

bowiac

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Asik is 27, and has shown major potential to be an asset on the defensive end (albeit very little potential on the offensive end). Not that Bass is much older, but he probably fills a clearer role on the next Celtics contender than Brandon Bass does, and probably has less overall upside. I'd jump at that Asik/Bass trade.
 
That said, while I think the Rockets would pass on that trade (they have Terrance Jones, who I imagine they'd rather develop), the market for Asik may be surprising limited. The Rockets have been trying to trade Asik since signing Howard, and haven't had much in the way of success so far. Both in talking with people, and in just thinking about it, there's actually a surprising lack of clear fits for him in the NBA right now. The Rockets ideal return would be a Thabo Sefolosha type. They need help defensively on the perimeter who can shoot the three. Shot creation and even ball handling is all secondary to that.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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knucklecup said:
Early AM Trade Machine fun:
 
Boston gets: Omer Asik
Houston gets: Brandon Bass, MarShon Brooks
 
That trade might get done if you substitute Bradley for Brooks. But MarShon really doesn't have any value at all, and Asik has far more value than Bass. Bradley's perimeter defense, on the other hand, would be a huge addition for Houston.
 

bowiac

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BigSoxFan said:
Asik's contract is pretty reasonable too. Only making 8.3 mil / year for this year and the next. Somebody is going to bite. Biggest problem for Houston is that there are so many bad teams out there that probably aren't really looking to add a piece. I could see Miami being interested if/when Oden gets hurt but they don't have much to offer.
While most contending teams care only about the $8.3M cap figure, it's worth noting that because Asik was signed under the Gilbert Arenas rule, his actual salary next year is going to be around $15M even though his cap figure is going to $8.3M. For some teams like Oklahoma City or the Bulls, with owners who don't like to spend, that figure might be a problem.
 

Brickowski

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Green would be a good fit in Houston, and Green for Asik works on the checker.  That deal would make the Celtics worse in the short run, because Ainge will be trading away what little scoring he has.  But it might work over time.  Competent and relatively young 7 footers do not grow on trees.
 

Devizier

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Brickowski said:
Green would be a good fit in Houston, and Green for Asik works on the checker.  That deal would make the Celtics worse in the short run, because Ainge will be trading away what little scoring he has.  But it might work over time.  Competent and relatively young 7 footers do not grow on trees.
 
Interesting idea. Given that McHale has given up reincarnating the twin towers and is using Omri Casspi as a stretch four, it's not like the Rockets wouldn't find a place for Green.
 
Revisiting it, I think the main holdup is the fact that Dwight Howard really has lost a step, and it's not just because he was unhappy in Los Angeles.
 
That, and the fact that trading your team's best player (relative term here) during the beginning of a somewhat overachieving season is a good way to create a major division with your coach. I'm thinking Ainge has learned the O'Brien lessons here.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Brickowski said:
Green would be a good fit in Houston, and Green for Asik works on the checker.  That deal would make the Celtics worse in the short run, because Ainge will be trading away what little scoring he has.  But it might work over time.  Competent and relatively young 7 footers do not grow on trees.
 
I'm not sure what Green brings them that Parsons doesn't at 1/10th of the cost. I'm pretty sure that Morey would prefer the production he's getting at the 3 between Parsons, Casspi, and Garcia at a combined 3.5 million dollars to the contribution he'd get from a Parsons/Green combo at 10 million.
 

wutang112878

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radsoxfan said:
 
I don't think Ainge is actively tanking, but I also don't think he's in the market for short term veteran upgrades.  The team's window clearly is not within the next 1-2 seasons. Asik certainly would help short term, but I'm not sure what the point is from the Celtics perspective.  I'm sure Ainge would love to trade a ton of the roster right now, but it only makes sense if you're getting rookies, draft picks, or more cap space.
 
 
I'm not saying the Celts could get him, but as an asset at this deadline or the next Danny could use him.  He has a reasonable salary, he is effective and he is 7 feet tall.  Thats a decent asset to have and Danny could trade him for the rookies, picks, etc  Whats unclear is if Danny would have more trade leverage than Houston if Asik wasnt trying to push his way out the door.
 
Plus, who on this roster, besides Rondo, would you be upset about losing if you got Asik?  I cant think of anyone
 

bowiac

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I'd rather have Sullinger than Asik.
 
The Rockets by the way are not really using Casspi if they can help it. Terrance Jones has played ~35 minutes a game since McHale gave up on Asik. He's their project/stretch 4 at PF. The Rockets have less of a need for another guy who can only sort of defend the 4 like Green, and need a guy who can credibly defend PGs, SGs, and SFs, since Lin, Harden, and Parsons either don't try on defense, or aren't very good at it. 
 

wutang112878

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bowiac said:
I'd rather have Sullinger than Asik.
 
 
 
I like Sully and Olynyk, but are their ceilings really as high as the 12/13 Asik?  And actually, are they a little higher to compensate for the fact that they are 4s and not Cs which are much more difficult to come by?
 

bowiac

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wutang112878 said:
I like Sully and Olynyk, but are their ceilings really as high as the 12/13 Asik?  And actually, are they a little higher to compensate for the fact that they are 4s and not Cs which are much more difficult to come by?
I don't believe in Olynyk much, and in particular don't think he'll ever be much use defensively. Sullinger on the other hand I think can be a very good player.
 
Asik is very limited offensively, and his free throw percentage occasionally veers into the "can't be on the court late in the game" territory. I think Sullinger is a better player than him now, let alone his upside. I like Asik - he's a solid player, but I Sullinger has more offensive value, and plays very solid defense as well.
 

Brickowski

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I agree that Sullinger is a better player than Asik.  In fact I view him as the Celtics' second best player after Rondo.  But Sullinger is a pf not a c.  Their only true center is Faverani, unless Olynick can beef up.
 
And if the Rockets are looking for a Sefolosha type, IMHO Green is a similar player.  Sure, they have Parsons, but Green is a better defender, and Green can also play sf, which Terrence Jones really can't.  Parsons is also due for a very big raise that the Rockets might not want to pay.  Lastly, Green is a veteran.
 
If the C's are lucky enough to get Parker, Randle or Wiggins, two of them play the same position as Green.  And even if you don't get a top 3 pick, there are guys like Glenn Robinson, James McAdoo and Doug McDermott projected to go in the 7-15 range. It's obviously much easier to find a sf/pf than it is to find a good NBA center.
 
I would certainly make the trade IF I thought I could get Asik to sign an extension after next year. 
 

wutang112878

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bowiac said:
I don't believe in Olynyk much, and in particular don't think he'll ever be much use defensively. Sullinger on the other hand I think can be a very good player.
 
Asik is very limited offensively, and his free throw percentage occasionally veers into the "can't be on the court late in the game" territory. I think Sullinger is a better player than him now, let alone his upside. I like Asik - he's a solid player, but I Sullinger has more offensive value, and plays very solid defense as well.
 
Are there many Cs that arent limited offensively though?  Ultimately we are looking at 2 slightly flawed players.  I dont disagree with your take on Sully, I would just add that he is slightly undersized and he isnt super fast.  That doesnt make him bad, but he just isnt a guy you slot in as your starting 4 and figure that position is all set for a championship run.  Its certainly debatable if Asik is that guy at C, but I think he has a better chance to be that type of guy (considering how rare decent Cs are to find) than Sully.  I just think of how excited some of us get for Favs and he has really just proven to be competent
 
 
Brickowski said:
 
 
And if the Rockets are looking for a Sefolosha type, IMHO Green is a similar player.  Sure, they have Parsons, but Green is a better defender, and Green can also play sf, which Terrence Jones really can't.  Parsons is also due for a very big raise that the Rockets might not want to pay.  Lastly, Green is a veteran.
 
I have to disagree on the Sefolosha comparison.  Green isnt a lock down defender, he isnt awful but he isnt great.  So I guess t depends on what Houston wants.  If it was me ideally I would want 3pt shooters to open up space for Howard and utilize his rebounding ability, and I wouldnt emphasize defense as much in the hopes that Howard could compensate for any mistakes by patrolling the paint.  But if they want a pure defender then Sefs is a better choice than Green.  If I was choosing, I would take Green because offensively with Howard and Harden that would be a real interesting mix and if Green played the 3 it could provide some matchup problems for opponents.  All of this also ignores contract issues, which is important considering Green makes much more than Sefs.
 

Devizier

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I would be surprised if Parsons gets paid more than Jeff Green, because he's essentially Jeff Green.
 
The reason why the Rockets would do the deal is that it's better to have two Jeff Greens than Jeff Green and Omri Casspi, but again, I think the fact that they might not be so awesome this year might cause them to try and patch their problem areas (defense!) than trying to add a piece that gets them "over".
 
P.S. don't the Rockets already have the poor man's Sefolosha in Ronnie Brewer?
 

Brickowski

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IMHO Green is a good defender.  We've seen him do an excellent job on LeBron for two years now.  But Asik is a better asset going forward, and Houston's loss is going to be some other teams' gain.  
 
It is wildly unlikely that Houston would move Asik for Bass or Humphries, even if Ainge sweetened the deal.  But Morey might do it for Green.  I'm guessing that when Morey was contemplating how Howard and Asik would fit together, he thought he would cross that bridge when he came to it.  Well, he's at the bridge.
 

wutang112878

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Brickowski said:
IMHO Green is a good defender.  We've seen him do an excellent job on LeBron for two years now.  But Asik is a better asset going forward, and Houston's loss is going to be some other teams' gain.  
 
It is wildly unlikely that Houston would move Asik for Bass or Humphries, even if Ainge sweetened the deal.  But Morey might do it for Green.  I'm guessing that when Morey was contemplating how Howard and Asik would fit together, he thought he would cross that bridge when he came to it.  Well, he's at the bridge.
 
Jeff Green at the 3 is a good defender, when he shifts to the 4 he isnt that great, so I guess it depends how, in this hypothetical world, Houston planned to use him.
 
 
You know what deal might be interesting to run by Houston, Bass & Humphries for Asik & Lin, thats ~$16.8M in salary from Houston and ~$18.5M in salary from Boston.  That would remove $12M in salary for them next year which would help if they want to use the MLE and dont want to go into luxury tax land.
 

Brickowski

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Who would play the point for Houston if they trade Lin?  If Morey expects to compete for a championship. would he be content with Patrick Beverly or Isaiah Canaan as the floor general?
 

Devizier

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If the Rockets trade Lin, they're getting Rondo in return.
 
As someone who likes, but doesn't love Rondo's game, let me be the first to say, "no thanks".
 

nighthob

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
I'm not sure what Green brings them that Parsons doesn't at 1/10th of the cost. I'm pretty sure that Morey would prefer the production he's getting at the 3 between Parsons, Casspi, and Garcia at a combined 3.5 million dollars to the contribution he'd get from a Parsons/Green combo at 10 million.
 
I think the idea is that Houston would use Green as the starting 4 and a swing forward. Right now they're giving minutes at the 4 to Casspi to space the floor.
 

ifmanis5

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I wouldn't be in a hurry for Asik. He's a plus-rebounder for sure but every other part of his game is average or below average and 27 isn't so young. Shedding Bass and another scrub is fine but no way would I put Bradley/Sully/Kelly in a deal. Unless I was tanking for reals.
 

Scoops Bolling

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ifmanis5 said:
I wouldn't be in a hurry for Asik. He's a plus-rebounder for sure but every other part of his game is average or below average and 27 isn't so young. Shedding Bass and another scrub is fine but no way would I put Bradley/Sully/Kelly in a deal. Unless I was tanking for reals.
He's also one of the better defensive centers in the NBA. 
 

radsoxfan

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wutang112878 said:
 
I'm not saying the Celts could get him, but as an asset at this deadline or the next Danny could use him.  He has a reasonable salary, he is effective and he is 7 feet tall.  Thats a decent asset to have and Danny could trade him for the rookies, picks, etc  Whats unclear is if Danny would have more trade leverage than Houston if Asik wasnt trying to push his way out the door.
 
Plus, who on this roster, besides Rondo, would you be upset about losing if you got Asik?  I cant think of anyone
 
Certainly a Bass/Brooks trade for Asik would be great for the Celtics. As you mentioned, Asik has much more trade value.  Unfortunately, that trade would never happen because it's so lopsided.
 
The point I was making is that I don't think Ainge would seek out a fair trade for Asik that Morey might be interested in.  He would have to give up something of value, but has no pressing need for Asik that makes it worth giving up that value. 
 
FWIW, I wouldn't trade Rondo, Sullinger, or Olynyk for Asik.  I'm not especially high on Olynyk, but he's pretty cheap, and under team control for up to 5 years.  In my mind, he has enough potential at this point that I'd rather have him on the roster than someone who makes 8M for the next 2 seasons, but almost surely wont be part of the next great Celtics team (barring another likely expensive contract extension).
 

mcpickl

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Brickowski said:
I agree that Sullinger is a better player than Asik.  In fact I view him as the Celtics' second best player after Rondo.  But Sullinger is a pf not a c.  Their only true center is Faverani, unless Olynick can beef up.
 
And if the Rockets are looking for a Sefolosha type, IMHO Green is a similar player.  Sure, they have Parsons, but Green is a better defender, and Green can also play sf, which Terrence Jones really can't.  Parsons is also due for a very big raise that the Rockets might not want to pay.  Lastly, Green is a veteran.
 
If the C's are lucky enough to get Parker, Randle or Wiggins, two of them play the same position as Green.  And even if you don't get a top 3 pick, there are guys like Glenn Robinson, James McAdoo and Doug McDermott projected to go in the 7-15 range. It's obviously much easier to find a sf/pf than it is to find a good NBA center.
 
I would certainly make the trade IF I thought I could get Asik to sign an extension after next year. 
The Celtics shouldn't be worried about filling certain positions at this point though, should they? They just have to be building up assets and/or getting the best players they can regardless of position.
 
Can't see a scenario where Houston is interested in Green. He plays the same spot as Harden and Parsons, he's not a 4. I'd imagine Daryl Morey as one of the GMs heavily involved in advanced metrics knows that better than anyone.
 
Also, if Boston were thinking of adding Asik thinking about the longterm, their interest probably would depend on their plans for Rondo. If they intend to extend Rondo and build around him, Asik is a bad fit. Puts them in same spot they were in with Perkins/Rondo where they had two guys defenses didn't respect on the floor and really gummed up their offense. Don't see Ainge headed down that road again.
 
Don't see Bass as a fit for Houston either. They definitely need a 4, but I'd think they'd be looking for a better defender there. They have enough scoring, but need some help covering up for Parsons and Harden.
 

Devizier

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mcpickl said:
The Celtics shouldn't be worried about filling certain positions at this point though, should they? They just have to be building up assets and/or getting the best players they can regardless of position.
 
Can't see a scenario where Houston is interested in Green. He plays the same spot as Harden and Parsons, he's not a 4. I'd imagine Daryl Morey as one of the GMs heavily involved in advanced metrics knows that better than anyone.
 
Also, if Boston were thinking of adding Asik thinking about the longterm, their interest probably would depend on their plans for Rondo. If they intend to extend Rondo and build around him, Asik is a bad fit. Puts them in same spot they were in with Perkins/Rondo where they had two guys defenses didn't respect on the floor and really gummed up their offense. Don't see Ainge headed down that road again.
 
Don't see Bass as a fit for Houston either. They definitely need a 4, but I'd think they'd be looking for a better defender there. They have enough scoring, but need some help covering up for Parsons and Harden.
 
Once McHale realized that Dwight Howard and Omer Asik are not the modern reincarnation of Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon, he went small at the four.
 
That means their "power forwards" have been Omri Casspi, Chandler Parsons, and more recently Terrence Jones.
 
Given that Chandler Parsons is Jeff Green, that means they could envision a lineup of Parsons-Green at the forward spots if they want to go all in with their offense. But because their backcourt defense is so atrocious, and because Howard hasn't really been the anchor that he had been in Orlando, they can't afford to play it Stan Van Gundy style like I suggested before the season started.
 
In other words, nighthob is right, the Rockets need to dump Howard.
 

mcpickl

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Devizier said:
 
Once McHale realized that Dwight Howard and Omer Asik are not the modern reincarnation of Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon, he went small at the four.
 
That means their "power forwards" have been Omri Casspi, Chandler Parsons, and more recently Terrence Jones.
 
Given that Chandler Parsons is Jeff Green, that means they could envision a lineup of Parsons-Green at the forward spots if they want to go all in with their offense. But because their backcourt defense is so atrocious, and because Howard hasn't really been the anchor that he had been in Orlando, they can't afford to play it Stan Van Gundy style like I suggested before the season started.
 
In other words, nighthob is right, the Rockets need to dump Howard.
I still don't think so.
 
I see a big difference between playing a guy out of position because that's what you have, and trading for a guy to play out of position because that's what you want.
 

Devizier

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I don't see what exactly we're debating here.
 
I liked Brickowski's idea before the season, but the Rockets need a two-way player who defends guards well and won't displace Harden from the lineup (i.e. not Jeff Green).
 

67YAZ

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 Asik is Kendrick Perkins - very similar skill sets, same brand of excellent physical defense learned from Tom Thibodeau.  The Rockets did find a nice offensive niche for Asik last year: set the high screen, then crash down to the hoop.  He's a load to try to stop when headed directly at the rim, even his finishing is decidedly mediocre.   
 
There's a lot value in guys like Asik and Perk for teams that have enough scoring to cover for a low-post defensive specialist.  That isn't the C's today.  The only way Asik makes sense is if multiple lesser assets are combined for Asik or if gobs of salary are getting dumped on Houston.  
 

Brickowski

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I don't see what exactly we're debating here.
 
I liked Brickowski's idea before the season, but the Rockets need a two-way player who defends guards well and won't displace Harden from the lineup (i.e. not Jeff Green).
I don't think Morey has the luxury of turning Asik into the perfect fit for Houston.
 

wutang112878

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Doing nothing is a very viable option though.  Howard has certainly had durability issues, and Asik isnt expiring until next year.  Then he might be under some pressure to find a fit for Asik on the team or trade him for something.
 

Brickowski

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Every minute Asik spends riding the bench is costing him money over the life of his next contract. Asik is getting screwed. Oh sure, in theory Morey could do nothing, but agents have long memories.
 

wutang112878

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There are guys getting screwed on the bench in every single NBA game.  Asik is a good player but not exactly the caliber that gets to dictate his situation.  If Humphries can handle his DNP Coach's Decisions here, then Asik can deal with getting 'just' 20 min a game
 

Brickowski

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There are guys getting screwed on the bench in every single NBA game.  Asik is a good player but not exactly the caliber that gets to dictate his situation.  If Humphries can handle his DNP Coach's Decisions here, then Asik can deal with getting 'just' 20 min a game
Asik is getting DNP-CD's, not 20 minutes.
 

wutang112878

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He is getting those after he was pulled from the starting lineup and responded by asking to be traded, its partially his doing
 

Brickowski

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He is getting those after he was pulled from the starting lineup and responded by asking to be traded, its partially his doing
It's completely Asik's doing. He doesn't want to be there. It's a bad situation for the locker room and in every other way. That's why I do not believe Morey can wait for the perfect deal. If he does, he may lose the season.
 

Jer

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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24245614/report-houston-rockets-to-trade-omer-asik-just-not-sure-when
 
The Houston Rockets will be trading Omer Asik as quickly as they can find a palatable trade. That much is certain. 

The mystery here, apart from the obvious question about where he ultimately winds up, is what Houston does with Asik until it can locate that appealing deal.
The center was scratched from Saturday's home game against Denver essentially because he's so unhappy with his new role that he's in no state to play. Word is Asik has been asking the Rockets pretty much once a week, since Dwight Howard's arrival in July, to please trade him elsewhere. And now losing his starting spot, on top of what was already a reduced role, has clearly knocked the 27-year-old back.
Sources with knowledge of the situation told ESPN.com that Asik was challenged by coaches and teammates this week for not being "engaged" in the wake of the lineup change, which took effect when Asik was moved to the bench for Wednesday's game in Philadelphia. And he hasn't played since the challenge, logging zero minutes Thursday night in New York while in uniform and not even dressing against the Nuggets.
 
Maybe that Bass offer will start looking good :)
 

wutang112878

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Brickowski said:
It's completely Asik's doing. He doesn't want to be there. It's a bad situation for the locker room and in every other way. That's why I do not believe Morey can wait for the perfect deal. If he does, he may lose the season.
 
Sounds like Asik doesnt exactly have the support of his teammates, so I really, really doubt the front office is racing to make things right by him when they can just tell him to stop acting like a child and go to timeout if he doesnt like it
 
 
Sources with knowledge of the situation told ESPN.com that Asik was challenged by coaches and teammates this week for not being "engaged" in the wake of the lineup change
 
 

radsoxfan

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knucklecup said:
It should. It makes them better in the short term, doesn't do anything to hurt them financially, and rids them of a complaining Asik.

How many teams have proposals like that?
 
How many teams can offer a package as good as Brandon Bass?  Probably just about every other team in the NBA. 
 

knucklecup

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radsoxfan said:
 
How many teams can offer a package as good as Brandon Bass?  Probably just about every other team in the NBA. 
 
Marcin Gortat got traded for an expiring contract and a mediocre, no upside first round draft pick.
 
What do the Rockets realistically expect in return?
 

radsoxfan

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knucklecup said:
 
Marcin Gortat got traded for an expiring contract and a mediocre, no upside first round draft pick.
 
What do the Rockets realistically expect in return?
 
I'd assume they can find something better than an overpaid, undersized PF who cant rebound or defend.
 
Even if Asik has close to zero value, which I doubt, they can get an expiring contract instead of being stuck paying 7 million bucks for someone they don't want in 2014-2015.
 

Devizier

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Bass isn't overpaid. He's paid exactly the amount that players like him get paid.
 
However, the teams that typically dole out those contracts are on-the-cusp contenders, which the Rockets clearly are not.