Offseason Game Thread

nolasoxfan

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I’m tired of hearing about the 2015 draft. It was a flaming disaster but it was 6 years ago.
Point taken—coulda, shoulda, woulda—and bitching about it, while cathartic, doesn’t get the team where it needs to be. Nevertheless, it played a huge role in putting the team in the roster position it finds itself in now, AND, much like the bear in your post above, it’s roosting, fat ass is staring us in the face.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Sorry. What I meant to say was

I don’t want to hear about the 2015 draft anymore.

At which point I would be mad at you for talking about it. But I didn’t say that so I can’t be mad at you.
 

Haunted

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It all comes down to the blown 2015 draft. If they had just hit on 1 damn player they might be cup contenders this year.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Anyone interested in doing a 2015 NHL draft re-draft of the top 15 picks? Curious to see whether people think DeBrusk and/or Senyshyn would move up into the top 10.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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You're never going to hear the end of the 2015 draft because like Bagwell for Andersen it continues to kill the club to this day. It's still extremely relevant especially when Barzal is fucking up our shit and we could have taken him instead of two fucking guys who can't play and a third who has had only one decent season.

I said it in the game thread but that 2015 draft is Donnie's legacy. Fair or unfair, that's the way it is. If he doesn't fuck it all we likely have at least one more Cup and a lot more postseason success.
 

Salem's Lot

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You're never going to hear the end of the 2015 draft because like Bagwell for Andersen it continues to kill the club to this day. It's still extremely relevant especially when Barzal is fucking up our shit and we could have taken him instead of two fucking guys who can't play and a third who has had only one decent season.

I said it in the game thread but that 2015 draft is Donnie's legacy. Fair or unfair, that's the way it is. If he doesn't fuck it all we likely have at least one more Cup and a lot more postseason success.
Not only is that draft extremely relevant to today’s issues as stated above, it also gives me zero faith that this management team can draft well going forward. Other than Charlie McAvoy, have they hit on a pick since Sweeney took over?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Sure, why not?

Look, you simply cannot say "I'm sick of talking about 2015." It's KILLING this club. Absolutely killing them. Three guys in the first and they've gotten one decent year from that. They passed on many good players and AT THE TIME OF THE PICKS both Zboril and Senyshyn were considered huge reaches. And while d-men need more time to develop, it's been six years and neither guy has done anything.

That draft remains EXTREMELY relevant to this day as DeBrusk appears to be on his way out of town as well after a lousy year.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Not only is that draft extremely relevant to today’s issues as stated above, it also gives me zero faith that this management team can draft well going forward. Other than Charlie McAvoy, have they hit on a pick since Sweeney took over?
Carlo was also in 2015. Swayman in 2017. Other than that...yikes. Not a single player taken in the '18, '19 and '20 drafts has played in a single NHL game.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Imagine getting a decent player in those spots instead of having to rely on Tinordi in these playoffs. Or a constantly injured Carlo and Miller.

I can't believe they really thought they could package those three picks for Hanafin, as was rumored. Talk about insane naivete.
 

RSN Diaspora

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I don't want to harp on 2015, because it was seven years ago and it doesn't do us a lot of good. On the other hand, you can't help but notice that after the three picks we made, Barzal, Kyle Connor, and Thomas Chabot went immediately after.
 

RSN Diaspora

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Well, if we're using our 20/20 hindsight (and the 2015 draft was indeed a full-blown disaster), should we have brought back Z in a reduced role this season? Obviously, you can't predict injuries, but would've much preferred him on the ice than the glorified waiver wire detritus not named McAvoy or Grzelcyk
 

lexrageorge

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Imagine getting a decent player in those spots instead of having to rely on Tinordi in these playoffs. Or a constantly injured Carlo and Miller.

I can't believe they really thought they could package those three picks for Hanafin, as was rumored. Talk about insane naivete.
Hanifin hasn't turned into anything special and if anything was a bit underwhelming as the #5 overall pick. Still doesn't excuse seriously overdrafting 2 of the 3 players with those consecutive picks. If we look at the moves from that particular offseason:

Trading Lucic for Martin Jones, Colin Miller and a 1st rounder (Zboril). Solid move, as Lucic was never going to be the same player he was. The Zboril pick was a separate transaction, but as noted was a terrible move.

Trading Martin Jones for Kuraly and a 2016 1st rounder (Frederic). Meh. Jones was never going to replace Rask, but he could have been a decent #2 for at least a couple of years. As for Frederic, he was picked in the crapshoot part of the draft; lots of teams passed on Debrincat.

Trading Dougie Hamilton for 3 draft picks turned into Senyshyn, Forsbacka-Karlson, and Lauzon. The trade itself wasn't all Sweeney's fault; Hamilton wanted out and they were running into cap issues from some of the Chiarelli signings. Didn't like the return then; JFK and Lauzon probably are the median outcome from where they were drafted, but to turn Hamilton into nothing hurts.

As an aside, Zboril, Frederic, and Kuraly are the remaining leftovers from the Neely for Pederson trade.
 

TFP

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Not a single player taken in the '18, '19 and '20 drafts has played in a single NHL game.
I'm too lazy busy to do the research but have any players drafted after their played NHL games? It's not like they've had high picks and those are still recent drafts so that factoid doesn't totally surprise me.
 

biff_hardbody

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I'm too lazy to do the research but have any players drafted after them played NHL games? It's not like they've had high picks and those are still recent drafts so that factoid doesn't totally surprise me.
Arthur Kaliyev and Nils Hoglander were taken within 10 picks of Beecher in 2019. Kaliyev has played only 1 NHL game, but appears to be a good prospect, whereas Hoglander put up 13g 14a in 56 games for the Canucks this season. I didn't dig beyond that, though I think I would take both players over Beecher (who I remember being touted as a high floor pick due to his size and speed).

The above does not do much to contradict your point. The Bruins drafted too late in 2018 (pick 57 - Axel Andersson) to quibble over who they should have taken and the 2020 draft was too recent to judge and the Bruins first pick was late in the 2nd round (pick 58 - Mason Lohrei).
 
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yeahlunchbox

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Well, if we're using our 20/20 hindsight (and the 2015 draft was indeed a full-blown disaster), should we have brought back Z in a reduced role this season? Obviously, you can't predict injuries, but would've much preferred him on the ice than the glorified waiver wire detritus not named McAvoy or Grzelcyk
I thought the Bruins tried to and either Chara thought he should have had a bigger role than the Bruins pitched or found it easier to accept it with a new team.
 

cshea

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I'm too lazy busy to do the research but have any players drafted after their played NHL games? It's not like they've had high picks and those are still recent drafts so that factoid doesn't totally surprise me.
Not really. Their top pick in 2018 was Axel Anderson at 57. Only 3 players drafted after him have played more than 40 games in the NHL so far.

In 2019 they picked John Beecher at 30. Only 1 player drafted after him has played more than 12 games in the NHL.

In 2020 nobody drafted after 6th overall has played an NHL game.

Going back to 2017, Vaakanainen is looking like a bust (Bruins preferring Tinordi is a real bad sign) but only 4 players drafted after him have played 100 NHL games. That was 4 years ago. It takes forever for kids drafted outside of the top 10 to reach the NHL in most cases.
 

TFP

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Arthur Kaliyev and Nils Hoglander were taken within 10 picks of Beecher in 2019. Kaliyev has played only 1 NHL game, but appears to be a good prospect, whereas Hoglander put up 13g 14a in 56 games for the Canucks this season. I didn't dig beyond that, though I think I would take both players over Beecher (who I remember being touted as a high floor pick due to his size and speed).

The above does not do much to contradict your point. The Bruins drafted too late in 2018 (pick 57 - Axel Andersson) to quibble over who they should have taken and the 2020 draft was too recent to judge and the Bruins first pick was late in the 2nd round (pick 58 - Mason Lohrei).
Yeah that's about what I figured, I'm sure there would be 1 or 2 but it's not like guys outside the top half of the first round regularly jump right into the NHL in a season or two. It's not unheard of, but also not an indication of poor drafting if it didn't happen, imo.
 

RIFan

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Well, if we're using our 20/20 hindsight (and the 2015 draft was indeed a full-blown disaster), should we have brought back Z in a reduced role this season? Obviously, you can't predict injuries, but would've much preferred him on the ice than the glorified waiver wire detritus not named McAvoy or Grzelcyk
It wasn't the Bruins choice to not bring back Z in a reduced role. All indications were that they offered him a contract but would not guarantee that he would be an every game player. They were set on Grzelcyk on the left and wanted 2 out of the Lauzon, Zboril, Vaak group to get sufficient playing time to know what they had. They could have hid the fact that he'd be a healthy scratch at times, especially early in the year. They treated him with respect and let him make his own decision. Washington told him he would be part of the everyday line up and he took up their offer.
 

Melrose Diner

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I'm too lazy busy to do the research but have any players drafted after their played NHL games? It's not like they've had high picks and those are still recent drafts so that factoid doesn't totally surprise me.
Players drafted by the Bruins from 2015-present have a total of 110 NHL goals, 91 of which are from Debrusk and McAvoy. The 2014 class has 298, with only one of those players still with the team. The 2011 draft class has 0 outside of Dougie Hamilton, 2012 has 39, 2013 has 7.

If you want to go further back, the non-Seguin class of 2010 has 55, 2009 has 20, 2008 has 42 (and they're all Joe Colborne's), and 2007 has 0.
 

Steve Dillard

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I’m tired of hearing about the 2015 draft. It was a flaming disaster but it was 6 years ago.

You're never going to hear the end of the 2015 draft because like Bagwell for Andersen it continues to kill the club to this day. It's still extremely relevant especially when Barzal is fucking up our shit and we could have taken him instead of two fucking guys who can't play and a third who has had only one decent season.

I said it in the game thread but that 2015 draft is Donnie's legacy. Fair or unfair, that's the way it is. If he doesn't fuck it all we likely have at least one more Cup and a lot more postseason success.
I get your point about not banging the 2015 draft in the "where are we now" thread. But I think its a symptom of the single most relevant discussion point for the offseason plan -- fucking up and trusting Donnie to do anything right. You could also talk about every single draft pick he's made except for McAvoy (and Swayman). You could talk about Backes, Moore, Beleskey, Rinaldo, Hayes, and every free agent signing. You could talk about mortgaging the future for short term fixes at the trade deadline.

The second most valuable player he added to the inherited core in his 6 years is ***Charlie Coyle****, a third line guy, even while ripping part of that core away (Hamilton/Lucic) to invest in the future.

So yes, don't talk about the three cars the drunk driver hit two roads back. But take the keys away from him. And from Cam, who has perpetuated the "we need toughness in playoffs" mantra to explain draft picks and free agent low impact grinders.
 

TFP

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Players drafted by the Bruins from 2015-present have a total of 110 NHL goals, 91 of which are from Debrusk and McAvoy. The 2014 class has 298, with only one of those players still with the team. The 2011 draft class has 0 outside of Dougie Hamilton, 2012 has 39, 2013 has 7.

If you want to go further back, the non-Seguin class of 2010 has 55, 2009 has 20, 2008 has 42 (and they're all Joe Colborne's), and 2007 has 0.
I don't understand what this has to do with my post, which was specifically responding to SJH's point about the 2018-2020 draft classes.
 

Melrose Diner

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I don't understand what this has to do with my post, which was specifically responding to SJH's point about the 2018-2020 draft classes.
Yeah that's on me, I was reading things quickly and thought it was a blanket comment about their drafting in general.

That being said, I think it's not exactly helpful that they've got 48 NHL games from the last four draft classes. Having to rely on signing free agents year in and year out to mesh with older core guys and bringing in trade assets and hoping they outperform their career norms just doesn't feel like it's a long term recipe for success
 

Steve Dillard

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And after getting rid of Donnie, you let the next GM make the actual real hard but necessary decision for the rebuild, which is to trade Patrice Bergeron, whether to the three teams on his list, or go to him and let him pick the team with the best chance to use his skills.

Otherwise, we're just moving Nick Ritchie for another plug, the proverbial deck chairs. The only move is to get value for Patrice based on his intangibles, before his tangibles decline too obviously.

It's going to need a messy rebuild, and it needs a non-sentimental guy to do it.
 

The Napkin

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Carlo was also in 2015. Swayman in 2017. Other than that...yikes. Not a single player taken in the '18, '19 and '20 drafts has played in a single NHL game.
I'm too lazy busy to do the research but have any players drafted after their played NHL games? It's not like they've had high picks and those are still recent drafts so that factoid doesn't totally surprise me.
There's also that there was no 1st in 2018 or 2020 partly because they had to trade them to make up for blowing the 2015 draft. And the 2018 2nd (Andersson) was part of one of those trades as well.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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They passed on many good players and AT THE TIME OF THE PICKS both Zboril and Senyshyn were considered huge reaches.
Yeah, Zboril wasn’t a reach. Central Scouting had DeBrusk as a fringe 1st rounder, and Senyshyn deep in the second round. DeBrusk’s early success might’ve warped your memory on that one.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yeah, Zboril wasn’t a reach. Central Scouting had DeBrusk as a fringe 1st rounder, and Senyshyn deep in the second round. DeBrusk’s early success might’ve warped your memory on that one.
It makes zero difference. So they reached on two of the guys and the third has busted. A distinction without a difference. They had an opportunity to set up the franchise for continued success for many years to come and completely bollixed it.
 

cshea

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I don't think they'd get anything in a Bergeron trade. His age, contract status and NMC is going to severely limit his market.

Honestly, if we're swinging the wrecking ball, the guy to trade is Pastrnak. He's 25 on a bargain contract at $6.66 million for 2 more years. If handled properly, it could net a gold mine. If not, Seguin to Dallas 2.0, probably even worse.
 

Melrose Diner

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I don't think they'd get anything in a Bergeron trade. His age, contract status and NMC is going to severely limit his market.

Honestly, if we're swinging the wrecking ball, the guy to trade is Pastrnak. He's 25 on a bargain contract at $6.66 million for 2 more years. If handled properly, it could net a gold mine. If not, Seguin to Dallas 2.0, probably even worse.
Quite a few of the people that were involved in the Seguin trade are still with the organization and I absolutely do not trust them to trade another young star and get fair value
 

Salem's Lot

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I don't think they'd get anything in a Bergeron trade. His age, contract status and NMC is going to severely limit his market.

Honestly, if we're swinging the wrecking ball, the guy to trade is Pastrnak. He's 25 on a bargain contract at $6.66 million for 2 more years. If handled properly, it could net a gold mine. If not, Seguin to Dallas 2.0, probably even worse.
Unless they are trading Pastrnak for someone like Jack Eichel, it would be a huge mistake. I wouldn’t put it past these idiots to try to trade Pastrnak “to fill multiple holes” like they were trying to do with Seguin.

Unless they can get someone in here that can draft, this is academic anyway.
 

cshea

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Unless they are trading Pastrnak for someone like Jack Eichel, it would be a huge mistake. I wouldn’t put it past these idiots to try to trade Pastrnak “to fill multiple holes” like they were trying to do with Seguin.

Unless they can get someone in here that can draft, this is academic anyway.
I mostly agree. I've batted around Pasta for Eichel in my head, haven't fully fleshed it out. Not sure what I'd do. Heart says no, head says maybe. Center is more valuable than winger, solves that problem for the next decade. However, while you've fixed center you've really just kicked the problem from center to wing as suddenly you're trying to find a succession plan for Marchand and Hall (if signed). That said, it's generally easier to find wingers than centers so...I don't know. Eichel also makes $3.4 million more than Pastrnak and the whole "I want a surgery no NHL player has ever gotten" debacle is quite worrisome in a variety of ways. They'd be risking a whole lot based on the medical staff's evaluation of Eichel's health and prognosis.
 

biff_hardbody

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And after getting rid of Donnie, you let the next GM make the actual real hard but necessary decision for the rebuild, which is to trade Patrice Bergeron, whether to the three teams on his list, or go to him and let him pick the team with the best chance to use his skills.

Otherwise, we're just moving Nick Ritchie for another plug, the proverbial deck chairs. The only move is to get value for Patrice based on his intangibles, before his tangibles decline too obviously.

It's going to need a messy rebuild, and it needs a non-sentimental guy to do it.
I'd rather they keep Bergeron, try to build a competitive team around him, and lose in the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs each year than trade Bergeron now. Maybe if they missed the playoffs and Bergeron was clearly at the end they trade him to a contender to give him the opportunity to win a Cup ala Bourque. Short of that, I'd rather the Bruins shoot their shot with Bergeron and miss until he retires (hopefully as a Bruin), even if it sets their rebuild back 3-4 years. Once Bergeron retires, they can completely tear it down if necessary.
 
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54thMA

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Quite a few of the people that were involved in the Seguin trade are still with the organization and I absolutely do not trust them to trade another young star and get fair value
This.

That trade was a dumpster fire and as you said, I don't trust this organization to trade away another young star, they'll find a way to fuck it up again.

What a horrible, horrible trade; said it at the time, still saying it today.

But what do I know, I'm just a fan, not a front office guy who gets paid to make shitastic trades like that, traded away a horse and got ponies back.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Stars FO must have collectively thrown their backs out trying to stifle the disbelieving laughter when they realized they wouldn't have to give up even a single draft pick in that deal.

Boy we are really tilting today aren't we.
 

Steve Dillard

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For the Bergeron perspective, I'd point out Sinden, for all of his later faults, had the guts to trade Esposito, and (akin to potential Bergeron trade), an aging Hodge for Ricky Middleton.

Fiddling around the third liners is not going to do it. You need to guess right on a high draft pick from 2019 and gain about a decade in service. It may be that Bergeron has the best value at the trade deadline, when Hall fetches a #2, where you swap Bergeron for an undervalued recent first round pick of a team going for it all.

It sucks, as the fans here have said, but it's got to be done.

edit: But as everyone has noted, having the guts to make a move is one thing. Having brains is quite another, as Donnie showed in 2015.
 

Salem's Lot

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For the Bergeron perspective, I'd point out Sinden, for all of his later faults, had the guts to trade Esposito, and (akin to potential Bergeron trade), an aging Hodge for Ricky Middleton.

Fiddling around the third liners is not going to do it. You need to guess right on a high draft pick from 2019 and gain about a decade in service. It may be that Bergeron has the best value at the trade deadline, when Hall fetches a #2, where you swap Bergeron for an undervalued recent first round pick of a team going for it all.

It sucks, as the fans here have said, but it's got to be done.

edit: But as everyone has noted, having the guts to make a move is one thing. Having brains is quite another, as Donnie showed in 2015.
The problem with this is that you are not getting the equivalent of a Ratelle/Park package for Bergeron. Those trades don’t happen anymore due to the cap.
 

Steve Dillard

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The problem with this is that you are not getting the equivalent of a Ratelle/Park package for Bergeron. Those trades don’t happen anymore due to the cap.
A bit unclear in mixing gumption needed for the Espo trade of equal talent, in which they got a bit younger (Ratelle/Park), for the trade I was suggesting needed to be made, Hodge (age 34) for Middleton (age 21). So you'd save Bergeron's cap hit for a ELC contract.
 

lexrageorge

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Quite a few of the people that were involved in the Seguin trade are still with the organization and I absolutely do not trust them to trade another young star and get fair value
Not sure how much the current holdovers were involved in the actual mechanics. Chiarelli was the one the pulled the trigger after Benning made his idiotic "half of Kane" comments. But I agree with the sentiment that it's hardly ever a good idea to give up the best player in a trade unless you're getting some valuable draft capital in return.

FWIW, I was in Toronto when the Joe Thornton fiasco of a trade went down. A couple of the hockey media guys on the local TV stations mentioned that they chatted with a handful of NHL front offices, including some GMs, and apparently every one of them was willing to give up far more than what O'Connell settled for when he made his panic trade. I'm guessing the same thing happened with the Seguin trade; no attempt was made to get a better deal, despite there being no real deadline to get a trade done.
 

Salem's Lot

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A bit unclear in mixing gumption needed for the Espo trade of equal talent, in which they got a bit younger (Ratelle/Park), for the trade I was suggesting needed to be made, Hodge (age 34) for Middleton (age 21). So you'd save Bergeron's cap hit for a ELC contract.
Except nobody is doing that trade today. You’re talking about a team trading cost controlled elite talent for a 35 year old with a $6.8 million cap hit. Nobody is taking on $6 million in cap money, and giving away that kind of talent. It just doesn’t happen in today’s NHL.
 

Melrose Diner

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Not sure how much the current holdovers were involved in the actual mechanics. Chiarelli was the one the pulled the trigger after Benning made his idiotic "half of Kane" comments. But I agree with the sentiment that it's hardly ever a good idea to give up the best player in a trade unless you're getting some valuable draft capital in return.

FWIW, I was in Toronto when the Joe Thornton fiasco of a trade went down. A couple of the hockey media guys on the local TV stations mentioned that they chatted with a handful of NHL front offices, including some GMs, and apparently every one of them was willing to give up far more than what O'Connell settled for when he made his panic trade. I'm guessing the same thing happened with the Seguin trade; no attempt was made to get a better deal, despite there being no real deadline to get a trade done.
I went back and watched the Behind the B video on it to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass (a huge possibility), and along with Cam Neely and Sweeney, Scott Bradley was one of the louder voices in the room and he's currently the assistant GM of....the Boston Bruins. So yeah, I'm good on those guys making blockbuster trades
 

cshea

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Not sure how much the current holdovers were involved in the actual mechanics. Chiarelli was the one the pulled the trigger after Benning made his idiotic "half of Kane" comments. But I agree with the sentiment that it's hardly ever a good idea to give up the best player in a trade unless you're getting some valuable draft capital in return.

FWIW, I was in Toronto when the Joe Thornton fiasco of a trade went down. A couple of the hockey media guys on the local TV stations mentioned that they chatted with a handful of NHL front offices, including some GMs, and apparently every one of them was willing to give up far more than what O'Connell settled for when he made his panic trade. I'm guessing the same thing happened with the Seguin trade; no attempt was made to get a better deal, despite there being no real deadline to get a trade done.
The deadline they were put on themselves was free agency. Chiarelli's master plan was to move Seguin so they could re-sign Horton. Horton told them he wasn't signing and then they made the decision Seguin still had to go. They cleared like $2.3 off the cap and used it to sign Iginla.