Misc. Pats Offseason News

Gator4MVP88

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Jun 27, 2006
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VA
Regarding Joey Slye...

I watched Joey all 4 years he was a starter at Virginia Tech and have followed him since college. I've always called him "Joey Touchbacks" as he rarely had a kickoff returned in college. He's a gym rat and wants to tackle someone if they do attempt a return. I was a bit surprised to see him stick with a team in the NFL, not because of his leg strength, which is off the charts, but due to his accuracy, which was suspect outside 45 yards. He was 0 of his first 8 attempts from 50+ in college until he went 2 for 3 his senior year. He's continued to improve on that quite a bit, nailing 67% of his attempts beyond 50 yards in his 2+ seasons in Washington.

I think he will push Ryland but I don't see it as a guarantee Joey makes the roster.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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Hingham, MA
Regarding Joey Slye...

I watched Joey all 4 years he was a starter at Virginia Tech and have followed him since college. I've always called him "Joey Touchbacks" as he rarely had a kickoff returned in college. He's a gym rat and wants to tackle someone if they do attempt a return. I was a bit surprised to see him stick with a team in the NFL, not because of his leg strength, which is off the charts, but due to his accuracy, which was suspect outside 45 yards. He was 0 of his first 8 attempts from 50+ in college until he went 2 for 3 his senior year. He's continued to improve on that quite a bit, nailing 67% of his attempts beyond 50 yards in his 2+ seasons in Washington.

I think he will push Ryland but I don't see it as a guarantee Joey makes the roster.
I don’t think anyone thinks it’s anything close to a guarantee. Good to have competition though.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Regarding Joey Slye...

I watched Joey all 4 years he was a starter at Virginia Tech and have followed him since college. I've always called him "Joey Touchbacks" as he rarely had a kickoff returned in college. He's a gym rat and wants to tackle someone if they do attempt a return. I was a bit surprised to see him stick with a team in the NFL, not because of his leg strength, which is off the charts, but due to his accuracy, which was suspect outside 45 yards. He was 0 of his first 8 attempts from 50+ in college until he went 2 for 3 his senior year. He's continued to improve on that quite a bit, nailing 67% of his attempts beyond 50 yards in his 2+ seasons in Washington.

I think he will push Ryland but I don't see it as a guarantee Joey makes the roster.
I don’t think anyone thinks it’s anything close to a guarantee. Good to have competition though.
SoSH remains undefeated -- of course we have someone who watched him in college.

Anyway, I worry I'm spamming BBTL with Joey Touchbacks (lol) content at this point. And to @tims4wins's point, I don't think anyone expects the journeyman kicker in his late 20s who has been on 5 teams since 2021 and was cut by the Jaguars before even making it to training camp is a lock for anything.

The Jags just released Joey Slye, for example. He's been bad from 50+ and on XPs in recent years, but he was a cromulent 16/19 (84.2%) from 49 and under last season, while our pal Ryland was a fainting couch worthy 14/21 (66%). Again, defer to @IdiotKicker and others, but if Ryland isn't fixable I wouldn't mind a guy like Slye who has shown he can kick in the NFL.
To me, the biggest advantage is that unlike Ryland, Slye has shown he can actually hit FGs of less than 50 yards with (something like) NFL-level accuracy.

Maybe Ryland will come into camp and look better. If not, I hope he ends up on the practice squad and someone -- Slye or another team's training camp cut -- ends up with the role.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
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Sep 9, 2008
43,965
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Summarizing a tweet from Miguel earlier today (those that X know where to find it).

Patriots 2024 cash spending once they sign the rookies will be $268 million. They also have a whopping $48 million in outstanding incentives. We had a lengthy discussion in the off season about the rule to spend cash over 3 years and how it related to cap accounting, with a few people seemingly swayed by the irresponsible media reporting trying to suggest the Patriots are cheap. The moral of the story is . . . don't be.

There will be no cash spending problem, and the Patriots will, over a long enough period, spend every single dollar. The above numbers mean that the Patriots, despite being $50 million under the cap, are going to be $12 to $60 million over the cap in 2024 cash spending. If you want to know how the spending translates to cap accounting, well, it's complicated. But the Patriots are decidedly not underspending. Even in a year in which they are accumulating cap space, they are taking care of any concern about the 2024-26 cash spending requirement, which, again, will not be a problem.
 

Jimbodandy

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Jan 31, 2006
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Summarizing a tweet from Miguel earlier today (those that X know where to find it).

Patriots 2024 cash spending once they sign the rookies will be $268 million. They also have a whopping $48 million in outstanding incentives. We had a lengthy discussion in the off season about the rule to spend cash over 3 years and how it related to cap accounting, with a few people seemingly swayed by the irresponsible media reporting trying to suggest the Patriots are cheap. The moral of the story is . . . don't be.

There will be no cash spending problem, and the Patriots will, over a long enough period, spend every single dollar. The above numbers mean that the Patriots, despite being $50 million under the cap, are going to be $12 to $60 million over the cap in 2024 cash spending. If you want to know how the spending translates to cap accounting, well, it's complicated. But the Patriots are decidedly not underspending. Even in a year in which they are accumulating cap space, they are taking care of any concern about the 2024-26 cash spending requirement, which, again, will not be a problem.
Thanks for spending some time explaining this. I appreciate understanding the cap stuff that smart folks here post, particularly as regards cap vs cash spend. Sure, the clickbait guys flog this mule because ratings, but there's sometimes mentions thrown around here too. I'll be interested if there are responses to your post here and additional conversation for more context, so that we can all get a little smarter about this stuff.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,965
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Thanks for spending some time explaining this. I appreciate understanding the cap stuff that smart folks here post, particularly as regards cap vs cash spend. Sure, the clickbait guys flog this mule because ratings, but there's sometimes mentions thrown around here too. I'll be interested if there are responses to your post here and additional conversation for more context, so that we can all get a little smarter about this stuff.
I think most people kind of think the cap is just an annoyance that you can always work around, and so find this stuff silly to think about. There is some truth to that. But I still find it really interesting. When you look at how teams do deals, it gives you an insight into what they they are thinking, and, for some of the same reasons that people seem to like fantasy sports because it lets you play front office make believe, I like thinking about the cap.

One thing that is interesting to me about 2024 is how the patriots are using incentives. There are two kinds of incentives — likely to be earned and not likely to be earned. The way you judge them is to look at the player’s previous year. So if you say $X for 10 sacks, it is LTBE if the player had 10 or more in 2023 and NLTBE if fewer. Or if you say $25,000 bonus for being active on game day, and the player played 10 games in 2023, $250,000 is LTBE and the rest is NLTBE. If a player was injured for much of the prior year, most incentives will be NLTBE.

The reason it matters is that LTBE incentives go on the cap immediately, without waiting to see if they are earned or not. NLTBE incentives do not go on the cap. At the end of the year, you do a reconciliation. So, if you had a cap charge for a LTBE incentive the player did not reach, you get a credit. If a player reaches a NLTBE incentive, you get charged the next year.

So one way to get players to sign contracts without taking a cap hit (yet) is to give them incentives they believe are attainable but are just beyond what they did the prior year. So, look at Josh Uche for example. He signed for $3 million, but with $5 million in incentives. Because his playing time last year was relatively minor, all $5 million is NLTBE. Which means if he has a good year, the extra money he earns will go on next year’s cap.

The Patriots are doing a ton of this. They are using the shit out of NLTBE incentives. Most of the $48 million in incentives hanging out there (I think not all of that is 2024) is NLTBE. This is clearly deliberate and pretty interesting (to me). It seems like it would create cap uncertainty, which was not a thing you would associate with the Patriots traditionally. But my guess is they have some pretty sophisticated modeling. I dunno, long post for a small point, but I find this stuff interesting, and understand much less of it than I pretend.
 

Cotillion

New Member
Jun 11, 2019
5,410
I think most people kind of think the cap is just an annoyance that you can always work around, and so find this stuff silly to think about. There is some truth to that. But I still find it really interesting. When you look at how teams do deals, it gives you an insight into what they they are thinking, and, for some of the same reasons that people seem to like fantasy sports because it lets you play front office make believe, I like thinking about the cap.

One thing that is interesting to me about 2024 is how the patriots are using incentives. There are two kinds of incentives — likely to be earned and not likely to be earned. The way you judge them is to look at the player’s previous year. So if you say $X for 10 sacks, it is LTBE if the player had 10 or more in 2023 and NLTBE if fewer. Or if you say $25,000 bonus for being active on game day, and the player played 10 games in 2023, $250,000 is LTBE and the rest is NLTBE. If a player was injured for much of the prior year, most incentives will be NLTBE.

The reason it matters is that LTBE incentives go on the cap immediately, without waiting to see if they are earned or not. NLTBE incentives do not go on the cap. At the end of the year, you do a reconciliation. So, if you had a cap charge for a LTBE incentive the player did not reach, you get a credit. If a player reaches a NLTBE incentive, you get charged the next year.

So one way to get players to sign contracts without taking a cap hit (yet) is to give them incentives they believe are attainable but are just beyond what they did the prior year. So, look at Josh Uche for example. He signed for $3 million, but with $5 million in incentives. Because his playing time last year was relatively minor, all $5 million is NLTBE. Which means if he has a good year, the extra money he earns will go on next year’s cap.

The Patriots are doing a ton of this. They are using the shit out of NLTBE incentives. Most of the $48 million in incentives hanging out there (I think not all of that is 2024) is NLTBE. This is clearly deliberate and pretty interesting (to me). It seems like it would create cap uncertainty, which was not a thing you would associate with the Patriots traditionally. But my guess is they have some pretty sophisticated modeling. I dunno, long post for a small point, but I find this stuff interesting, and understand much less of it than I pretend.
Pats did this under Belichick too. Gronk was one where they often put these numbers out there where they were all +1 to what he had just done. It's why towards the end of the year every so often there would be stories about the Pats giving the incentive to the guy anyways even if they didn't actually make it all the way to the number.
 

Jimbodandy

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Jan 31, 2006
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I think most people kind of think the cap is just an annoyance that you can always work around, and so find this stuff silly to think about. There is some truth to that. But I still find it really interesting. When you look at how teams do deals, it gives you an insight into what they they are thinking, and, for some of the same reasons that people seem to like fantasy sports because it lets you play front office make believe, I like thinking about the cap.

One thing that is interesting to me about 2024 is how the patriots are using incentives. There are two kinds of incentives — likely to be earned and not likely to be earned. The way you judge them is to look at the player’s previous year. So if you say $X for 10 sacks, it is LTBE if the player had 10 or more in 2023 and NLTBE if fewer. Or if you say $25,000 bonus for being active on game day, and the player played 10 games in 2023, $250,000 is LTBE and the rest is NLTBE. If a player was injured for much of the prior year, most incentives will be NLTBE.

The reason it matters is that LTBE incentives go on the cap immediately, without waiting to see if they are earned or not. NLTBE incentives do not go on the cap. At the end of the year, you do a reconciliation. So, if you had a cap charge for a LTBE incentive the player did not reach, you get a credit. If a player reaches a NLTBE incentive, you get charged the next year.

So one way to get players to sign contracts without taking a cap hit (yet) is to give them incentives they believe are attainable but are just beyond what they did the prior year. So, look at Josh Uche for example. He signed for $3 million, but with $5 million in incentives. Because his playing time last year was relatively minor, all $5 million is NLTBE. Which means if he has a good year, the extra money he earns will go on next year’s cap.

The Patriots are doing a ton of this. They are using the shit out of NLTBE incentives. Most of the $48 million in incentives hanging out there (I think not all of that is 2024) is NLTBE. This is clearly deliberate and pretty interesting (to me). It seems like it would create cap uncertainty, which was not a thing you would associate with the Patriots traditionally. But my guess is they have some pretty sophisticated modeling. I dunno, long post for a small point, but I find this stuff interesting, and understand much less of it than I pretend.
I think that the NLTBE stuff is a fantastic way to manage some payroll. What was the quote about being ok with the high cost of elite talent but not with paying large for mediocrity?

Of course, you can't do the whole roster that way or the budget modeling would have bands so wide that you could fly the team plane through it. But for the right percentage of the roster, it makes sense. If all/most of those guys underachieve, then you have extra money next year for their replacments.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Sep 21, 2007
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Hartford, CT
That’s scary shit.

On that note, Phil Perry had a bit of a bitchy drive by on Curran’s latest podcast - he was annoyed Belichick didn’t reveal what specific illness Anderson had last summer, as if the team reported that he had a neck injury or something. Get the fuck over it, not only is Bill gone but not every instance where the team withheld information about a player’s health were attempted competitive fuckery.
 

dirtynine

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Dec 17, 2002
8,568
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Not great, Bob.

They’re going for a soccer badge look (perhaps in accordance with the Germany connection) but that isn’t very memorable, IMO. The negative space in the middle is all wrong, and the outside roundel being two different colors is jarring. The “silver” (grey) doesn’t pop enough. Going 1-color and featuring a tricorner hat in there, or maybe an entirely new symbol (like the New England pine tree, dammit!) would have been the move.

(edited out a shorter, harsher version of that take, I was being a bit reactionary)
 
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Mystic Merlin

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Sep 21, 2007
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They’ve been on a losing streak with their uniform and logo changes. When they changed the ‘Patriots’ font and introduced those new color schemes I can’t say it inspired confidence, and this is even worse.

Maybe Bob or Jonathan will just change the name of the fucking team to further prove this isn’t Bill’s team anymore.
 

Justthetippett

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Aug 9, 2015
2,863
They logo is too busy for my taste. Not sure you need the NE at all if you are going to put the full name in the roundel.
 

Bongorific

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Jul 16, 2005
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I really dislike logos that use “established”. It gives the impression the designer was looking for something to fill space and didn’t know what else to use. Different perhaps if you’re Levi’s and projecting that you’re an old, original brand. But a 65 year old football team? Most of the teams were around then.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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They logo is too busy for my taste. Not sure you need the NE at all if you are going to put the full name in the roundel.
Agree -- there are three different elements just in the circle: the NE, Elvis' face, and the star (I know it's Elvis' hat, but it reads as it's own thing given the color scheme)
 

twibnotes

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Jul 16, 2005
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I’ll never understand why they don’t combine the pat era with the Elvis era. Simply retain the blue and gray but use pat the patriot (with some color tweaks) - best of both worlds
 

Norm loves Vera

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The Patriots and starting C David Andrews have agreed to an extension through 2025, per source. Under the new deal, Andrews is due a base value of $12M over the next two seasons, with a maximum value of $13M and $8M fully guaranteed.
 

tims4wins

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Great leader even if his play has dropped a notch. Important for him to be in the room with Maye for a couple years.
 

dynomite

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Great leader even if his play has dropped a notch. Important for him to be in the room with Maye for a couple years.
Sure, although given that it sounds like Andrews considered retiring this offseason I wonder what the structure of this deal is -- interested to see the details.

View: https://twitter.com/patscap/status/1791157341796049186


I’ll never understand why they don’t combine the pat era with the Elvis era. Simply retain the blue and gray but use pat the patriot (with some color tweaks) - best of both worlds
Yeah, I saw this at Uni Watch a while ago and while it's not perfect (the white helmets and blue tops are too close to the Bills sadly wonderful uniforms I think) it's better than what they're currently wearing.

 

tims4wins

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Sure, although given that it sounds like Andrews considered retiring this offseason I wonder what the structure of this deal is -- interested to see the details.

View: https://twitter.com/patscap/status/1791157341796049186




Yeah, I saw this at Uni Watch a while ago and while it's not perfect (the white helmets and blue tops are too close to the Bills sadly wonderful uniforms I think) it's better than what they're currently wearing.

This isn't a uniform thread, but the first thing they need to change is the helmet. Just going to white would be a tremendous upgrade. Silver was so 90s.
 

dynomite

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This isn't a uniform thread, but the first thing they need to change is the helmet. Just going to white would be a tremendous upgrade. Silver was so 90s.
Right, when I hear "silver helmet" I think Raiders/Cowboys/Lions.

Still, it's hard not to think of the Flying Elvis silver/blue/silver uniforms without picturing Brady and co. in a Super Bowl or playoff game. And now all that's left from that era are lifelong memories and decades of sports nirvana, a whole bunch of trophies and banners, and the helmets. So I'm not sure how to think about that.
 

dynomite

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I've been all for making that change for years.
View attachment 82753 View attachment 82754
I like these blue ones a lot, and I agree the white-red-white stripes look a LOT better than the red-white-red... but honestly, not trying to belabor this, but would the league really approve a uniform that was so similar to a division rival's in the Bills?

The white helmets with red helmet stripe, the white on both sides color stripes on the shoulders, white pants with blue/red pant stripes, the white letters outlined in red... it's a different shade of blue but that's about it. I honestly don't know whether this is a thing. And obviously the teams would wear opposite uniform tops when they played each other.

 

tims4wins

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I like these blue ones a lot, and I agree the white-red-white stripes look a LOT better than the red-white-red... but honestly, not trying to belabor this, but would the league really approve a uniform that was so similar to a division rival's in the Bills?

The white helmets with red helmet stripe, the white on both sides color stripes on the shoulders, white pants with blue/red pant stripes, the white letters outlined in red... it's a different shade of blue but that's about it. I honestly don't know whether this is a thing. And obviously the teams would wear opposite uniform tops when they played each other.

The league seemed fine with it in the early 2000s. Those Bills jerseys were pretty much the same color as the Pats, although they did have red helmets. The blue on blue is very similar to the Pats current.

 

DrBlinky

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Those Bills jerseys were pretty much the same color as the Pats, although they did have red helmets.
Legend has it that the Bills went to the red helmet in the 80's so that Joe Ferguson could more easily spot his receivers down the field. At the time, three of the four other teams in the division, (Jets had already gone to green), had helmets that were primarily white.
 

SMU_Sox

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Strange is month to month and won't participate in off-season activity. I think that just means OTAs and he will hopefully participate in camp but I am not sure. I am worried about LG. In an ideal situation if it isn't Strange I would think it would be Caedan Wallace with Anderson as your LT. Robinson is going to take snaps there. I haven't watched him yet.

Looking at their roster and even though they want to be an OZ team most of their guys are still suited for downhill or gap/power stuff. I imagine this team runs a lot of different schemes this year.

Mafi, Jake Andrews, and Robinson all have questionable lateral mobility. Sow is definitely more of a gap/power fit. Same with Onwenu. Andrews is scheme diverse but probably better in zone schemes.
 

BigSoxFan

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Cole Strange month-to-month - what a total disaster this pick has been. Practically unforgivable blunder by BB.
The Strange/Thornton combo is going to give Harry/JoeJuan a run for its money although the opportunity cost of the latter duo makes it a worse combo, IMO.
 

radsoxfan

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Strange is month to month and won't participate in off-season activity.
What is his injury exactly? I didn't see it reported.

If I had to guess, some bad cartilage damage/arthritis and associated bone bruising, recurrent joint effusions, etc.

Most other knee injuries have a more predictable course, none of this "month-to-month" talk. Especially for someone who was injured a while ago. Doesn't sound good.
 

SMU_Sox

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Cole Strange month-to-month - what a total disaster this pick has been. Practically unforgivable blunder by BB.
That 2022 draft was fuck awful.

I am also ringing the alarm bells again but louder on OL. The left side of the line, if Strange can’t play, is likely a combination of Caedan Wallace, Calvin Anderson, Layden Robinson, Chuks, Leverett, or, less likely, Mafi or Jake Andrews. Could be a total disaster. Might be passable. Vibes aren’t good at the moment.
 

SMU_Sox

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What is his injury exactly? I didn't see it reported.

If I had to guess, some bad cartilage damage/arthritis and associated bone bruising, recurrent joint effusions, etc.

Most other knee injuries have a more predictable course, none of this "month-to-month" talk. Especially for someone who was injured a while ago. Doesn't sound good.
He hurt his knee in camp of 2023 then, I think, aggravated that injury vs the Chiefs. When he hurt his knee vs the Chiefs I can’t tell from reports what the injury was and if he reaggravated it and/or did something else to it.
 

radsoxfan

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He hurt his knee in camp of 2023 then, I think, aggravated that injury vs the Chiefs. When he hurt his knee vs the Chiefs I can’t tell from reports what the injury was and if he reaggravated it and/or did something else to it.
Right, but most true injuries are specified and have typical timelines. Ligament or tendon tears, fractures etc

The idea that he hurt his knee in the camp, hurt his knee during the season, and is now “month-to-month” just sounds like someone with arthritic sore knee to me.

Specific knee injuries that are expected to heal fully don’t tend to be described with such vague uncertainty for months and months.