Might as well start talking about 2021

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
53,947
IMO LeMahieu is awesome, elite defender at 2B who has maybe fallen off some but is still solid, and has been NY's team MVP both seasons he's been in NY. He finished 4th and 3rd in the AL MVP voting in 2019/2020, but the big danger sign for him for other teams isn't just his age, it's that a large percentage of his HRs were wall-scrapers in Yankee Stadium, so his OPS looks decidedly better than it would likely be anywhere else.

I think he comes back to NY for something in the 4/84 range but the confusing factor is that both he and Gleyber are by far most valuable at 2B.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
2,993
IMO LeMahieu is awesome, elite defender at 2B who has maybe fallen off some but is still solid, and has been NY's team MVP both seasons he's been in NY. He finished 4th and 3rd in the AL MVP voting in 2019/2020, but the big danger sign for him for other teams isn't just his age, it's that a large percentage of his HRs were wall-scrapers in Yankee Stadium, so his OPS looks decidedly better than it would likely be anywhere else.

I think he comes back to NY for something in the 4/84 range but the confusing factor is that both he and Gleyber are by far most valuable at 2B.
What's crazy is that the Toilet has given him (and others?) an offensive bump more than Coors Field.... at least at a slight glimpse.
Prior to his tenure with the Yankees... his career OPS was .750
Great job on Cashman's part (or more likely... just luck) that he blossomed into what he was for the last two seasons.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
12,353
HUGE strikeout numbers (e.g., 191 k in just 457 ab in A+ ball in 2017). But terrific power. Definitely worth a shot, because if he can just make a little more contact, he could produce. Especially if he is a good defensive player.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
14,045
Maine
Sounds like Wily Mo Pena but with a good glove. No downside to giving him a minor league deal and seeing what they can do with him.
 

Earthbound64

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
What's crazy is that the Toilet has given him (and others?) an offensive bump more than Coors Field.... at least at a slight glimpse.
Prior to his tenure with the Yankees... his career OPS was .750
Great job on Cashman's part (or more likely... just luck) that he blossomed into what he was for the last two seasons.
Meanwhile, Robinson Cano... Well, y'know.
 

vadertime

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,430
Rhode Island
Still have Springs, Valdez, Stock, Walden, Mazza, and Pedroia that can/will be removed for free agent signings.

This is was just the deadline to protect prospects though correct? They can still move guys of the 40-man to be able to make a selction in the Rule 5 draft between now and then, right?
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
2,118
Man, Renfroe looks like a great fit if he can’t land a starting job elsewhere. It’s pretty rare to find someone with his RHH pull power who can also handle Fenway’s RF defensively. In a Beni/JBJ/Verdugo outfield he seems like an ideal 4th outfielder, and decent insurance in case we whiff on other CF options (with Verdugo moving to center).

It seems possible we could get a Cody Ross 2012 kind of year from him, but with plus defense. Maybe JDM can teach him something too.
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
2,118
Would a Renfroe / Pederson platoon make sense?
In a vacuum, yes I think. But it would be more appealing if we knew what we were getting in Benintendi, who was decent vs. LHP in his otherwise down 2019 and bad against them in 2017-18. Pederson can’t hit them whatsoever, so that scenario could mean a lot of PT for a Renfroe type.

My read on Joc, fwiw, is that he’s not the type of LHH hitting profile the Sox chase, since he tends not to spray the ball and all of his power is to deep right field. I’d sooner see him as the Yanks’ new Brett Gardner.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
48,235
deep inside Guido territory
"The Chicago Tribune is mentioning the Red Sox has a potential Kris Bryant landing spot in a trade. They have two sources that say the Sox and Cubs were in trade talks over him this summer and the Sox would envision Bryant as a left fielder."

I had mentioned this a while ago as a possibility and I'm glad to see this could have a chance of it happening.
View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1330920831871049729
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
2,993
"The Chicago Tribune is mentioning the Red Sox has a potential Kris Bryant landing spot in a trade. They have two sources that say the Sox and Cubs were in trade talks over him this summer and the Sox would envision Bryant as a left fielder."

I had mentioned this a while ago as a possibility and I'm glad to see this could have a chance of it happening.
View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1330920831871049729
I would imagine this would mean the end of the Benintendi days unless they see him as a CF'er (I'm not confident in him there) and don't try to resign JBJ.
Safe to say that Bryant hasn't quite turned out to be the ultra-stud he was expected (and looking like he'd be), but he'd be a great addition to the lineup, and Fenway LF is probably a perfect spot for his D.
I also can't imagine a straight Benintendi for Bryant would work and am wondering what else the Sox have that'd make this work.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
68,519
Oregon
I also can't imagine a straight Benintendi for Bryant would work and am wondering what else the Sox have that'd make this work.
Not when you consider that Bryant only has a season left on his contract. As you said, Bryant hasn't replicated his MVP-level season ... so the idea of working out a contact extension with him as part of a trade carries some risk.

If such a deal would be made, it might mama more sense with additional pieces on both sides ... a 3-for-2, perhaps
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 2, 2006
6,924
NJ
Not sure what the Sox would have to give up in a trade to get him, but at this point, I think I would rather have Bryant in the lineup over Benintendi if that is what it came down to
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
14,940
Not sure what the Sox would have to give up in a trade to get him, but at this point, I think I would rather have Bryant in the lineup over Benintendi if that is what it came down to
I was thinking a swap of Ben10 and Bryant but Ben10 has an extra year of control and is considerably cheaper.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
23,420
Would Beni be shipped out in a Bryant deal?

I love Beni and am hoping he can break out Yelich-style (not to Yelich level, just a nice big leap in year 5-6), but I might be prospect hugging too much.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,766
Twin Cities
There's that too. It's 1 year of Bryant for $18.6 mil or 2 years of Beni for probably around 17mil combined. I think it's close.
I agree. If I’m Chicago, I want more than Beni. But Bryant is expensive and was awful in 2020 - whiffed a ton (30%), walked a little less, made little contact, OPSed .644. If they’re not planning to extend him and need to save money now, they could do worse than AB. But they probably should hold onto him and see what he does early in the year, build back value, and trade him mid-season if need be. Of course, we’ve been there. What do you do if you’re contending, and Bryant is contributing?
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,114
Rogers Park
I agree. If I’m Chicago, I want more than Beni. But Bryant is expensive and was awful in 2020 - whiffed a ton (30%), walked a little less, made little contact, OPSed .644. If they’re not planning to extend him and need to save money now, they could do worse than AB. But they probably should hold onto him and see what he does early in the year, build back value, and trade him mid-season if need be. Of course, we’ve been there. What do you do if you’re contending, and Bryant is contributing?
He's not likely to extend in Chicago. He's been at war with the club off and on after they transparently manipulated his service time to delay his FA by a year. I'm not a close follower of the Cubs, but I suspect that bridges have been burned, and there's value just in getting him out of there. Not because he's any kind of malcontent, to be clear, but because the team wronged him and he called them on it.

I wonder if the Sox have the pieces to get Darvish as well? If the Cubs are truly blowing it up. Three years left on his deal...
Dalbec could be in such a deal, potentially. Chicago will need another infielder, assuming Bote is back at 2B, where IIRC he's seen as a better fit.

The trade simulator thinks that [Dalbec + Beni <—> Darvish + Bryant] works as a four-player deal, but IMO Dalbec and Benintendi might be worth a touch more than Darvish and Bryant in the current financial environment (which the trade sim knows nothing about, of course).

Such a deal would subtract Benintendi's $5m AAV and Dalbec's league minimum, and add Bryant at 1/$22m (or so) and Darvish at 3/$59 ($19+ AAV). If the Cubs don't contribute any money, that spends most of our headroom to the first CBT threshold.

So I would judge that any deal with the Cubs probably depends on how motivated Hoyer and the Ricketts are to lower payroll.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
14,045
Maine
ISn't Bryant being considered basically a salary dump for CHC?
If it was entirely about salary, they'd just non-tender him. He doesn't have a contract for 2021 yet, he's just under team control because he's 9 service days short of free agency. They're shopping him because he has value and they want something signficant in return.
 

JBJ_HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2014
426
If it was entirely about salary, they'd just non-tender him. He doesn't have a contract for 2021 yet, he's just under team control because he's 9 service days short of free agency. They're shopping him because he has value and they want something signficant in return.
Or, far more likely, they want a small or modest return rather than non-tendering.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
12,353
But isn't Bryant considerably better? He OPS'd .903 in 2019. It's not like he's fallen off a cliff
Yeah I mean, it was just one non-Covid year ago that he hit 35 doubles and 31 homers in 543 ab, putting up a slash line of .282/.382/.521/.903, 132 ops+.

That would be a really nice addition to the Sox' lineup. He will only be 29 during the 2021 season.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
14,045
Maine
Or, far more likely, they want a small or modest return rather than non-tendering.
If all they want is a small/modest return, they're going to get hosed (and I'd love for the Sox to be the beneficiary). I just don't have faith that Jed Hoyer is that stupid.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,114
Rogers Park
If all they want is a small/modest return, they're going to get hosed (and I'd love for the Sox to be the beneficiary). I just don't have faith that Jed Hoyer is that stupid.
The question isn’t whether Hoyer is that dumb, it’s whether he has been told by ownership to cut the payroll by $10s of millions in a season when few teams are taking on money.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,766
Twin Cities
Jeezus. It’s hard to know exactly how good Bryant is, because he faltered a bit in 2018 and, with 3 different minors injuries, tanked in 2020. But he’s Dustin Pedroia with power at age 29. He won ROY. Then MVP. Helped lead his team to a WS. In 2019, his OPS was over .900. He’s got 24 bWAR in 5.5 seasons. The Cubs are not gonna freakin dump him because of salary.

I don’t actually think they’d do Bryant for Beni, although Beni has shown more at the MLB level than any double A prospect. I think they’d want something more, even in the Season of COVID; something like Song or Seabold. And most here would say HELL NO. So we probably shouldn’t be disappointed if it doesn’t happen.
 
Last edited:

JBJ_HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2014
426

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
23,420
another thing.... is Bryant any good in LF? Hanley, Swihart say hello in the "can't stick anyone in LF, even at Fenway" argument. Benny is not a good CF but he can play LF.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,114
Rogers Park
another thing.... is Bryant any good in LF? Hanley, Swihart say hello in the "can't stick anyone in LF, even at Fenway" argument. Benny is not a good CF but he can play LF.
Per baseball-reference, Bryant has 172 games in the OF, including 117 GS. All three positions, too, but mostly the corners.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
23,420
That's way more than I expected (I should have just done the bbref check, sorry for my laziness especially on this section of the board). I thought he was a full-time good 3B? injury concerns?
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
7,619
There was a trade deadline, and the cost was for 2 playoff runs was more than it would be for one playoff run.

The Athletic is saying the Cubs seem fearful to tender him next week and then risk no team willing to trade anything for him:
https://theathletic.com/2217807/2020/11/23/cubs-president-jed-hoyers-five-year-term-begins-with-a-difficult-offseason/
Not counting last year his WORST season was a partial season where he had 1.9 war in 102 games and a 121 ops+. His other 4 seasons ranged from very good to mvp caliber. There's no way no team is willing to trade for 1 year of him based on 34 games.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,114
Rogers Park
That's way more than I expected (I should have just done the bbref check, sorry for my laziness especially on this section of the board). I thought he was a full-time good 3B? injury concerns?
Eh, about a third of it is NL double switch shenanigans, and a good share of the rest has to do with the fact that the Cubs have had a pretty weird roster situation for most of the time he's been there that has resulted in a ton of different people playing IF/OF (or even C/OF) roles. They had a few dudes like Schwarber and Soler who were effectively positionless, and a bunch of people who played all over the field: Zobrist, of course, but plenty of others too.

So Bryant has basically served as the 3B/fifth outfielder that has allowed that flexibility to work out. By innings, about forty percent of Bryant's OF playing time came in 2016, filling a roster need after Schwarber got hurt and Jorge Soler wasn't quite ready. Bryant would typically start at 3B and then move to LF when Javy Baez or Tommy La Stella double-switched Soler out of the game. He also got some OF starts to help fit everybody into the Cubs' stacked infield: Bryant, Rizzo, Russell, Zobrist, Baez, and La Stella was a pretty deep and flexible group.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,114
Rogers Park
Gleanings from poking around on his b-r page...

Payamps is 27. In limited big league action for Arizona, this dude has walked more hitters than he's struck out, but walks weren't a big issue in the minors, and he throws a 94 mph sinker with legit movement. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

JBJ_HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2014
426
Speier: What happened to Benintendi
“I think his trade value is pretty limited at this point,” said one evaluator. “[A] willingness [by the Red Sox] to sell at this low point of value would suggest that the people who know him the best don’t see a dead cat bounce coming, which would give me a lot of pause, because every metric is pointing down.

“He’s young enough that it seems unlikely that he should be toast as a player, but I wouldn’t want to bet heavily that he’s going to turn into a good player again.

“Is he better than Robbie Grossman these days? I would say probably not. And Robbie Grossman [is] not getting big bucks this winter.”
Sprint speed tends to remain stable for players in their 20s, and small year-over-year improvements do happen. But even at 26, it’s unlikely that Benintendi will regain the speed he featured at the start of his career.

“A huge concern,” one NL evaluator said.

“His value takes a hit with me because I do not see him as a center fielder, nor a particularly good left fielder,” said an AL scout.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
IS it possible he had an underlying injury last year, beyond what he finally got IRed for? It's not like he bulked up, it seems odd a 26 year old guy just loses foot speed.