Greatest of all time is a ranking. If BB is not the GOAT, then who is? It literally has to be someone. If it is not Bill, then who?
Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
There’s going to be a couple of days schadenfreude for sure. Comes with the territory of two decades of dominance coming to an end. And, let’s face it, Bill not ever going an extra inch to make any friends. But something else shiny will come along to distract the media soon enough. And long term, no halfway serious, non-idiot observer of football will look at that play as a defining moment in his career. And anyone who does isn’t worth worrying about.
You have made your case that BB needs to go. Unfortunately nobody here can do anything about it. Either get the Kraft's contact info or let things breathe. We understand that you see disaster about to unfold. You are preaching to the wrong choir here and making the same posts over and over.
What? If it's not a slam dunk, then who is even in the conversation for GOAT coach if it's not BB?
This is ridiculous. The man had 2 rings before he got to the Pats. He then got 3 more rings carrying a fairly lifeless offense with his defense. If you think Tom Brady, and their 3 offensive touchdowns in the 2001 playoffs (TOTAL) deserves more credit than BB, you need your head examined, same goes for 2003 and 2004.
We heard this same nonsense after he benched Malcolm in 2017 and lost the Super Bowl getting zero stops on defense. Then less than 12 months later, he was back and winning the super bowl by shutting down a Rams offense that came into the game #2 in the NFL in yards and points.
I will blast BB as GM (particularly on the offensive side of the ball), I will blast him for the Malcolm benching, I will blast him for the fucking disgrace that was the end of the 2015 season and I'll blast him for wasting some pretty good Brady years by refusing to ever give him a true outside threat, but the idea that BB isn't the GOAT is just completely devoid of any reality.
Eh, I could at least understand someone like Payton, an offensive guru to change the focus. Replacing Bill with another defensive guy, as much as I like Flores, wouldn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Yes. Like the stock market. Need to close it for a time to let everyone catch their breath.
If BB is back next year, and I expect he will, I suspect there is a new quarterback. This insubordination (coupled with incompetence) must be killing him. He obviously could do something about it but probably feels it’s just too late for 2022.
They've gone through many different front office personnel over the last 20 years including Pioli, Dimitroff, Caserio, Ziegler and now Groh. While Belichick always has final say, these guys all have their influence; some likely more than others. They do a lot of the work and aren't going to approach things identically. Belichick himself is going to evolve his thinking.
I think it would be unreasonable to think the draft process hasn't evolved over the last 20+ years but I've not seen anything that says Bill still isn't very much hands on and in charge.
I think it would be unreasonable to think the draft process hasn't evolved over the last 20+ years but I've not seen anything that says Bill still isn't very much hands on and in charge.
Jimmy Johnson took the beat down, from Tom Coughlin's Jaguars.
Honestly, I'm not even beating the drum on it. I don't know who will replace him, just like any other team in the league if they need a coaching change. All I know is most of this team needs to be blown up, and a critical thought needs to be given before simply saying, "blow up everything and let BB try it all over again," as if he fell into this situation by chance.
Yeah, that same guy has a real bad overall record with QB and OC when you look at it...
I didn't say that. You did. I'm talking about his current choices. I get this reputation for hating BB, when in fact I have loved him for 20 years. But I don't love him right now, and I'm asking the hard questions about what we're seeing at this very moment - who's responsible, and what to do about it it. And it seems to upset a lot of people.
BB might have been Coach of the Year last season if they beat the Dolphins Week 18. If the game has passed him by, it sure happened quickly.
It's not "hard questions", it's saying that all non-Pats fans thinks BB's legacy has been ruined by this season that upsets people. Because it's insane.
Absolute crap and you know it. You are throwing around talk radio hot takez and expecting people to fall in line with your thinking. You can attempt to walk those back by what I quoted but that doesn't erase what you are saying in this thread.
Your position is known. No need to continue to use other words to continually restate it.
I honestly think that BB knows this team doesn't have it, he's trying his best, but just sticking it out so he can make changes next season. I don't think he has lost anything and it's a miracle they have 7 wins.
If they are still a mess next season, I'll start to consider moving on, but I don't think it's time yet.
If they are still a mess next season, I'll start to consider moving on, but I don't think it's time yet.
First off, who gives a flying fuck what fans of other teams think? The second the Krafts start making football decisions based on that is the second I hope they sell the team to someone who isn't that stupid.
In terms of BB, I'll admit there are things about how they have played that concern me, the sloppiness, lack of attention to detail, mental mistakes, it doesn't look much like a BB team. And of course he will lose it someday, and it is reasonable to think that decline might have already started. But given the fact that they have a putrid offense that in no way resembles an actual NFL offense, I'm not sure anyone else could get more out of the roster than he has. He obviously deserves the blame for assembling the offense and making the coaching decisions, but I do think he deserves a chance to fix that.
Given that IMO he has earned the right to stay too long rather than be forced into retirement too early I think talk of firing him is premature, but if next season they are .500 or worse again then I think he should be deservedly on the hot seat at that point.
In terms of BB, I'll admit there are things about how they have played that concern me, the sloppiness, lack of attention to detail, mental mistakes, it doesn't look much like a BB team. And of course he will lose it someday, and it is reasonable to think that decline might have already started. But given the fact that they have a putrid offense that in no way resembles an actual NFL offense, I'm not sure anyone else could get more out of the roster than he has. He obviously deserves the blame for assembling the offense and making the coaching decisions, but I do think he deserves a chance to fix that.
Given that IMO he has earned the right to stay too long rather than be forced into retirement too early I think talk of firing him is premature, but if next season they are .500 or worse again then I think he should be deservedly on the hot seat at that point.
What, my position that BB's legacy is taking a hit this year? Absolutely.
This is one of the stupidest teams in the league. This team shouldn't look like this under his watch.
I mean, I'm literally saying just this but you're dressing it up nice and pretty and putting a whole bunch of conditions on it, so somehow this post gets a pass but my posts get attacked.
I'm even on board with the hot seat next year concept, but apparently I can't get away with saying that.
You are not a victim and you are not being attacked. Your posts are absolutely being ridiculed for the pure ridiculousness of them.
What happened yesterday does not change the GOAT coach calculus.
We know where you stand.
What happened yesterday does not change the GOAT coach calculus.
We know where you stand.
No, you said that the false starts and such were "straight up bad coaching" and you don't want to give Bill credit for getting as much (or more) out of the roster as any other coach because he built the roster. I went back and re-read your posts and they are reactionary and bombastic and IMO way too extreme for where things are right now. If you think your posts on the subject are meant to convey the same thing I posted, you should go back and re-read them.
The first red zone series was absolutely bad coaching. Who is disagreeing? And no, I don't give him credit for getting more out of a roster than other coaches in hypothetical situations. It's total nonsense. This "give BB the coach credit for overcoming BB the GM" stance is pure coping.
It's not yesterday, it's the entire season. I really don't care much for this GOAT stuff when it comes to coaching but if BB being the best to ever walk a sideline is such hallowed ground here, I'll let it go.
It’s not “hallowed ground”. It’s that there’s nobody who’s ever done what he’s done. And one bad year - when they’re still .500 mind you - or even a couple bad years doesn’t undo the immense success he’s had. That’s what people are telling you. You’re not listening. Or you just don’t agree. Which is fine but good lord man.
This is actually one clue as to why he’s the GOAT. He’s 7-7 and it feels like an absolute catastrophe. It’s a season that many teams would long for. But for BB it’s a disaster.
No, nothing undoes the great coaching he did over the last 20 years. But he's not doing great coaching (and administration) right now. In fact, he's doing quite bad at that. And we need to talk about it and ask why. I don't believe this is an unlucky year or two, I believe these problems are systemic. Perhaps that's where we diverge.
It's not a catastrophe. It's the record of a very average team with average to below-average coaching. It's not, as you see it, the triumph of an excellent coach battling whatever it is you think is overcoming his excellence.
We agree on this:
In terms of BB, I'll admit there are things about how they have played that concern me, the sloppiness, lack of attention to detail, mental mistakes, it doesn't look much like a BB team. And of course he will lose it someday, and it is reasonable to think that decline might have already started.
No it’s fine to talk about his coaching now. But your argument has been that this calls his legacy into question and that the GOAT coach wouldn’t have a team playing this poorly. And that this means that the Pats legacy would be about Brady and not Belichick.
And that argument is total crap.
I read a lot of non-Patriots NFL forums and this is definitely not the case. The overwhelming consensus is that BB is a football genius, and he’s given people plenty of things to talk about even post Brady, such as his game plan against the Bills last season on MNF. I have no doubt that people who despise the Patriots are taking the opportunity to speak out today, but that isn’t going to change what’s already been cast into stone.
A little exercise, just for fun. (a) Tell me who you think is the best head coach in the league right now? (b) What do you think this teams record would be at this moment if that HC and staff were here, but the roster was the same as it is?
It’s the record of an average team. And this represents a terrible year for BB in his Patriots tenure.
That should give you a hint that he’s an incredible coach for an average year to be terrible.
Or are you suggesting that great coaches shouldn’t ever have teams play around .500 for a season?
Yeah, some people are forgetting how everyone was gushing about how much BB got out of the Patriots just last season with a mediocre rookie QB.
I don't think there are any particularly great head coaches. I'm a believer that coaches coach and players play. And no head coach is great when the QB stinks. I don't think anyone would be particularly better or worse with this team, either. But I'll take any head coach who brings along an actual offensive coordinator and QB coach who can work with Mac.
The problem is the idea that BB is so good he can turn chicken sh*t into chicken salad. He, like every other coach in NFL history, needs great players to be great.
I don't know what that means. That I'm whining? I guess. There are posters in other threads calling for Jakobi to be benched, BB to be fired, and far more outlandish things than I am saying, from far more established posters. I think the BB legacy thing touched a chord, though, and I apologize. I'm happy to engage in real discussion about this team with a great message board.
Yeah, you're whining and not offering anything resembling a constructive point. You asked me to "prove" that Bill is still a good head coach, and when I attempted to do that, you did the message board equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nananana, I can't hear you". When I asked who would do better, you told me that no one would be better or worse with this team. How is anyone supposed to engage with that response?
I have zero idea what you're trying to say, other than that you're mad. If you'd care to actually articulate something beyond "undisciplined play! bad coaching!" then go for it.
Yes--you now have 12 posts on this page alone. I don't think anyone here is unclear on your opinion.
