Great coaches have .500 records when they don't have great players. BB is no different or more special than any other great coach who didn't have his great players. It's not a bad thing, it simply means he is not this transcendent coaching entity some like to pretend he is. Give him good or great players, he'll give you great results. Give him bad or average players, he'll give you average results. Same as every other coach.
Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
“Same as every other coach”. LOL
Like every other coach has eight super bowl rings (6 as head coach). Other coaches have had great players and have never come close to what Belichick has done.
Now you’re just saying he’s basically a normal head coach.
“Same as every other coach.”
Best line ever on SOSH. Can a mod make that his tag line please? “Belichick: same as every other coach.” It would be the best thing to come out of this thread.
I'm late to this party, but this is such a funny way of hand waving BB's contribution given that the first dozen years of his time in NE was spent with an army of fans, talking heads, former players, etc. dismissing Patriot players as just widgets in the 'system.'
On topic:
Maybe this has been unpacked already pages back, but Bill/the Patriots also now suffer from their own success in the development of coaches and, really, the retirement of key guys. Other coaches would all be fired mounting even a fraction of the losses Bill sustains of apparently quality guys in their roles who then move on (even if they may flounder themselves at the HC spot).
Dante and Adams being retired is not nothing either.
Folks, please move along. That portion of this thread has come to its (il)logical conclusion so let's let it be.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Is salva just RBYB under another name? This is some expert trolling going on.
The coach who literally has a D game plan in the HoF. Has won the most SB of any coach. Most playoff wins. Etc. But because he is having a .500 year his GOAT status is under question? The EEI callers are cringing at these takes.
Edit - sorry @Dogman hadnt fully read up before posting.
I was reading an SEC message board today and they had several videos of Jones throwing the ball deep in college, basically saying Bill was full of shit in his comments that Mac couldn't throw it deep.
Mac Going Deep
Mac Going Deep
Most of those videos show him throwing 35-45 yards, that's not deep.
It was nice seeing him step into a couple throws though.
If BB meant that Mac can't throw it that far, he must also have meant that Zappe can't either. No reason they couldn't have gone to Zappe if they wanted a Hail Mary and Mac can't throw it that far and Zappe can.
the first gif there is 35 yard throw. Not sure that’s a good example. The Pats were on their 45.
And all the following comments correctly point out that even the longest of those would be 10-15 yards short of the EZ from where they were. You need a 60 yard plus throw there, Mac can't throw that.
And you’re usually 5-10 yards behind the LoS on a Hail Mary. Maybe Mac can do it, but he’s also not exactly the guy you want back there scrambling around to create time for the receivers.
To answer the question in the (current) thread header: What it means for BB to stay on until he retires (at some point years down the road, presumably) is that at least there's huge stability in the organization at probably the most important spot (along with QB). And stability with - all due respect to a particular poster in this thread - the greatest coach to ever walk an NFL sideline - at least in the Super Bowl era.
That's what it means. And given that the team is in a bit of turmoil, I'd think that this kind of stability is just what you need.
Of course, I can see the argument for blowing it all up completely, though there's enormous, enormous risks with doing that too. It means that not only are you back to square one in the search for the great QB, it means you're at square one in the search for the great HC too. Kind of a problem.
That's what it means. And given that the team is in a bit of turmoil, I'd think that this kind of stability is just what you need.
Of course, I can see the argument for blowing it all up completely, though there's enormous, enormous risks with doing that too. It means that not only are you back to square one in the search for the great QB, it means you're at square one in the search for the great HC too. Kind of a problem.
You missed my point. (I almost added "no one on the team can" in place of "Zappe".)
Just meant maybe it wasn't Mac's arm that was the problem, maybe BB felt the OL couldn't protect long enough (even against three rushers) to attempt a Hail Mary or something.
It obviously hasn't helped, but all of the all time greats had some real dogshit years except Lombardi, who was only an HC for 11 years.
I'm curious whether any other head coach/front office has done what BB did last year with his offensive coaching staff and what that disastrous move says about BB.
What BB did wasn’t unique. Other coaches have gone without a coordinator on one side of the ball. BB has done it himself before on defense, seemingly successfully. I think it’s a sensible structure where the guy you want calling plays and the guy you want generally in charge of the offense are two different guys.
The issue is that the staff lost its best offensive mind, and BB did nothing to replace him. No idea if that reflects hubris, or just a blind spot.
I think part of it is the result of being a successful head coach, which allowed his assistants to become valued head coaching prospects in their own right. And each time it's not just the lead assistant that leaves, but also the lower level assistants that inevitably go with him. McDaniels brought Mick Lombardi, among others. Same with Flores a few years back. The steady loss of what were his most sought after junior assistants is a real problem; Belichick himself noted this issue in a conversation with Nick Saban.
Maybe Belichick could have identified the clear cut McDaniels successor earlier and took steps to ensure he was in place when McDaniels inevitably took on a head coaching role. But inevitably is doing some work here given McDaniels' own history, and junior assistants are not necessarily going to wait around. So Belichick's options were to either (a) find an experienced offensive assistant outside the org; (b) promote from within among a group that currently consists of Troy Brown, Billy Yates, Nick Caley, Vinnie Sunseri, Evan Rothstein or Tyler Hughes; or (c) name guys with actual head coaching experience to run the offense. And I think people here are understating the difficulty of option A.
For these reasons, I didn't understand why the Pats didn't bring back Chad O'Shea after he was fired by the Dolphins after the 2019 season. Perhaps BB just didn't think very highly of him. But if O'Shea had been on the staff in 2020 and 2021, he would have been a natural choice to succeed Josh.
I have no idea if he is a good coach, or if the offense would have been better this year if he was here. But I remember being a bit confused / disappointed when they didn't bring him back. BB employed him for 10 years, and he coached in 5 SBs with 3 rings. He never progressed beyond WR coach, but he was more or less blocked by BoB / Josh the entire time.
I would argue that “going without a coordinator on one side of the ball” is a grossly inadequate description of what BB did with the offensive coaching staff did.
As you note in your second paragraph, he lost a lot of offensive expertise and didn’t replace it. That’s what I was getting at.
I can't wait until BB retires*. Because it won't be until then that the Pats get a group of coaches that stick around without getting poached by other teams every year. I know BB says that he is happy when his guys get opportunities, but at some level it has got to be frustrating.
*Only half kidding.
*Only half kidding.
O'Shea was hired pretty quickly, less than a month, by Cleveland to be their WR coach. I guess he could have been offered the same position by BB but he may have had Troy Brown in mind for the role and didn't see the need to offer the job to O'Shea. Troy worked with the running backs in 2020 and then wide receivers beginning in 2021.
I agree that the amount of turnover in the ranks of the coaching staff with the Flores and McDaniels departures has been an issue, especially offensively. The question is: Is anyone from those staffs or who have been with the Pats able to call plays? I know we have a thread devoted to the 2023 OC but I can't see Bill going outside the offensive system they have for a play caller.
Some names I could see, and who would need the OC title to move to the Pats, are:
- BoB - I'm not sure if the NEP OC job is better than than the Bama OC as a stepping stone to another NFL HC job
- O'Shea - Background in offense
- Jerry Schuplinski - Background in offense and was an Asst QB coach
Isn't this just the way of the NFL though? Have Patriots coaches under BB been poached by other teams more than coaches from other organizations? I honestly don't know. My general impression is that coaching staffs are constantly in flux with assistants moving around all the time, particularly when given opportunities to advance in other organizations.
It's kind of wild to me the dichotomy of the 2022 offense and defense. For the NFL of 2022, this is a pretty good defense, they excel at taking away the football, and players have improved over the year (Uche, Marcus Jones, and Tavai, come to mind). They are not perfect but they are clearly a top-ten defense. The defensive coaching staff has experience working together and it shows. The offense is the direct opposite. They can not even line up correctly sometimes. The offensive line was supposed to be a strength, but it is definitely not. Who are the improving players on this offense? Stevenson? The offense if anything is worse now than it was earlier this season, the Raiders' defense is legitimately awful, they are last in DVOA. Evan Lazer had this to say about the offense this week:
Sending a QB in cold who hasn't played all game to throw the ball > 65 yards sounds bizarre. Like putting a new pitcher in a game with no warmup and expecting him to throw 100 right away. Although, what happened couldn't have been worse.
Or a calculated risk in the face of the available options? Some—not necessarily you—seem to be assuming an awful lot here, such as that BB can conjure candidates from his ass, or that NFL OC experience is the only relevant factor. Idk which reasonable options BB had available to him, but I can see a universe in which his best bet was the devil he knew.
Give examples of other teams that have done anything like what BB just did. How many teams have turned their offense over to defensive and ST coaches? “Could not find an available OC candidate who wanted the job” seems like a stretch that people would only suggest because they are unwilling to accept that BB fucked up.
There was some speculation on pfw that they had thought BOB was going to be the OC and that changed very late. YMMV. Certainly if you pick the non traditional candidate (ie a defensive guy) and they flounder it’s fair to say it’s a particularly obvious screwup; Adam Gase got his plays in on time.
I do think if Marty P looked like Sean McVay folks would be more forgiving; something about that guys weight/beard/vibe makes fans hate him. That said he appears to be about the 32nd best OC in the nfl right now and changes need to be made
I’m not sure how “thought he was going to hire someone good” works as a defense of BB. The fact is he took and unorthodox step that looks to have been a disaster.
Oh the argument would be that they ended up on plan B because BOB changed his mind late. Clearly Plan B was a disaster
Juan Castillo was the offensive line coach for the Eagles from 1998-2010. In 2011 Andy Reid fired the defensive coordinator, Sean McDermott (you may have heard of him), and replaced him with Castillo. Castillo had never coached defense in the NFL before. The 'dream team' Eagles went 8-8. Castillo was fired by Reid 6 games into the 2012 season and replaced by Todd Bowles (you may have heard of him). The 2012 Eagles went 4-12 and Reid was fired.
Patricia was operating as a special assistant to Belichick last season. There was speculation that he was taking the "Ernie Adams role", but presumably he was involved in a lot of aspects of the team, not just defense. And lower level coaches moving among offense, defense and (especially) special teams is not unheard of.
Not excusing the situation. But among explanations, I find the one that is based around Belichick feeling that both Patricia and Judge, who certainly could be expected to have a working familiarity with the key concepts of the offensive system that the team has deployed over the years, were a better choice than trying to find someone outside the organization. The evidence continues to build that the decision was a mistake, but I find that explanation more likely and more satisfying than just chalking it up to "hubris and arrogance" or utter incompetence.
The Andy Reid example is instructive in a way: after firing Reid, the Eagles went through 3 more coaches, 3 playoff DNQs, and 4 seasons without a single playoff win before hitting lightning in a bottle and walking away with a Lombardi. And the Eagles haven't won a playoff game since earning that trophy, although it seems likely that will change this year.
Not excusing the situation. But among explanations, I find the one that is based around Belichick feeling that both Patricia and Judge, who certainly could be expected to have a working familiarity with the key concepts of the offensive system that the team has deployed over the years, were a better choice than trying to find someone outside the organization. The evidence continues to build that the decision was a mistake, but I find that explanation more likely and more satisfying than just chalking it up to "hubris and arrogance" or utter incompetence.
The Andy Reid example is instructive in a way: after firing Reid, the Eagles went through 3 more coaches, 3 playoff DNQs, and 4 seasons without a single playoff win before hitting lightning in a bottle and walking away with a Lombardi. And the Eagles haven't won a playoff game since earning that trophy, although it seems likely that will change this year.
I saw a stat on the crawl of the games Sunday, before the Pats game, that BB was 11-11 against his former assistants. If that's the case that seems...not good. Since most of these assistants haven't done a good job away from the nest you'd assume BB would have a record against them in line or better than his overall record.
It’s not a particularly useful nor predictive stat. Skewed somewhat by Saban and Flores.
I didn't say it was predictive. I said his former assistants are considered to not have done a good job once they left NE and it seems weird (to me) he's only .500 against them.
I know they are SSS inside a SSS. It's just weird to me.
In this context, “fucking up” means something like “to choose a particular option when a better one is available.” Which better options might have been available? And what might have kept those options from being chosen? Maybe BB’s preferred candidate backed out late in the process. Maybe another candidate’s superior experience came with questions about how they would mesh with team culture. Maybe Patricia has kompromat on BB. I don’t know. Few people do. You want to speculate? Cool, that’s what this joint is for. For my money, about all I’m willing to say for sure is that “available OC candidate who wanted the job” wouldn’t, and shouldn’t, have been the only hiring criterion; that a decision can still have been the right one even if it didn’t work; and that it’s conceivable—not certain, not probable, just conceivable—that hiring Patricia/Judge was BB’s best option.
I think they all prepare for those games like it's the Super Bowl. I became convinced of this after McDaniel's reaction to beating the Pats with the Broncos.
As a thought experiment, I compiled a list. I included four Belichick's assistants from his Cleveland days at the bottom. There may be some lower level assistants that eventually did become a head coach in their own right but were never high enough up on the Patriots masthead to get listed at pro-football-reference.com.
Mangini: 5-3 (including 1-0 in playoffs). Losses Include the infamous handshake game, a weird OT loss to Brett Favre in the Matt Cassel era, and a WTF game against Payton Hillis and the Browns.
Bill O'Brien: 5-1 (1-0 in playoffs). The one loss was to a good Houston team in the final Brady season when the team's offense was unraveling.
Brian Flores: 2-4.
Romeo Crennel: 1-1. The loss was during the Cam Newton era, when Crennel was named interim HC of the Texans after Bill O'Brien was fired.
Matt Patricia: 0-1
Josh McDaniels: 0-2.
Jim Schwartz: 1-0.
Al Groh: 0-2 (2000 season).
Nick Saban: 2-2. The first loss was the Doug Flutie kicked the XP with the Pats resting Brady most of the game. The 2nd was that 21-0 pasting down in Miami.
Jim Bates: 0-1, the loss being that WTF Monday Night Game that the Pats booted away in 2004.
Grand Total: 16-17
Grand Total against former Patriots assistants: 13-12 (11-12 in regular season, 2-0 in playoffs)
It floors me that people are unwilling to accept that one important job a head coach has is to hire a coaching staff, and that when a head coach does something completely different in assembling his offensive coacing staff, he should be held accountable for the success of failure of that approach.
But, not, apparently if the GOAT does not hire someone with offensive coaching experience to run his offense, that must mean there was no one available.
In the past, BB has been able to promote for these positions (OC and DC) from within. Somehow he was not able to do that here, and that, too, is not to his credit.