Prove it. I mean, tell me what makes this true. If you want to say the defensive side of the ball, fine, but he's not a defensive coordinator. He runs not only both sides, but the entire football operations. So tell me why it's one of the best in the league. Tell me how the Patriots are one of the best run teams in the league. Right now.
Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
Prove it. I mean, tell me what makes this true. If you want to say the defensive side of the ball, fine, but he's not a defensive coordinator. He runs not only both sides, but the entire football operations. So tell me why it's one of the best in the league. Tell me how the Patriots are one of the best run teams in the league. Right now.
If Kraft and BB part it will be mutual and civil and you will know why they parted. Today might have jump-started that process in Kraft's head.
Honestly, I cant imagine BB and Kraft have sat around for 20 years without this discussion coming up. But maybe BB's terms of agreement in his head were different than Kraft's. Who knows. The wild card to me is BB's arrogance and a desire to go beyond what is productive, similar to whatever is going on with Brady right now. They are natural born killers and you will have to drag them out of this league. Their definition of "done" may be far different from their boss's definition, and it wouldn't surprise me (yes, I know Brady is a free agent after this year).
Last edited:
I don't disagree that when Bill does finally leave, it would be best to bring in a fresh staff. But the bolded is overstated a bit by the media.
Bill O'Brien and Nick Saban certainly have had success post-Belichick. Saban's NFL head coaching career was very short thanks to having to start Culpepper. Brian Daboll has been in the conversation for CoY. Brian Flores had a personality clash with his GM and owner but certainly deserves another chance at a head coaching gig based on what he was able to accomplish with a horrible roster down in Miami. Sample sizes in terms of games coached tend to be very small for a lot of NFL coaches.
After sleeping on it, I think this year should be Bill's last year.
Yesterday's national humiliation can't sit well with RKK; the man takes pride in his football team and since 1993 they've largely avoided stepping on rakes like that. But now the team is a public laughingstock. The final play of yesterday's game is going to be on endless replay for YEARS. It honestly reminds me of the disgrace that was the Victor Kiam years. That's how long it's been since the Pats did something that unprofessional and idiotic.
They fell out of the playoff picture with the end of yesterday's game. The next 3 games are against excellent opponents and the Pats are extremely likely to lose all 3 and finish 7-10; if they can't beat the fucking Raiders, they're not beating Burrow and Josh Allen and Tua.
And that would leave the Pats with: no playoff wins in 4 years. Losing records in 2 out of the last 3 years. A public embarrassment due to clownish play. Yearlong criticism of the hires for OC being shown to be spot on. A wasted 1st round pick on a supposed franchise QB who can't play. And increasing irrelevance in today's NFL.
A 70 year old coach isn't going to change all of that. The rebuild/reload has been a failure. The high priced receiving corps he has brought in have done absolutely nothing of note. The team is sloppily coached and continues to play boneheaded football. And BB has grown alarmingly conservative as time has passed by consistently passing up chance to go for it on 4th down, seemingly preferring to try to win with FGs. He also still cannot figure out a way to stop running QBs, and as the league continues to evolve mobile QBs are going to be the norm.
I'd like to see him pass that scumbag Shula for the wins record too but we usually don't get storybook endings and it's not going to happen.
None of this is working. Better to pull off the Band Aid and start fresh.
Yesterday's national humiliation can't sit well with RKK; the man takes pride in his football team and since 1993 they've largely avoided stepping on rakes like that. But now the team is a public laughingstock. The final play of yesterday's game is going to be on endless replay for YEARS. It honestly reminds me of the disgrace that was the Victor Kiam years. That's how long it's been since the Pats did something that unprofessional and idiotic.
They fell out of the playoff picture with the end of yesterday's game. The next 3 games are against excellent opponents and the Pats are extremely likely to lose all 3 and finish 7-10; if they can't beat the fucking Raiders, they're not beating Burrow and Josh Allen and Tua.
And that would leave the Pats with: no playoff wins in 4 years. Losing records in 2 out of the last 3 years. A public embarrassment due to clownish play. Yearlong criticism of the hires for OC being shown to be spot on. A wasted 1st round pick on a supposed franchise QB who can't play. And increasing irrelevance in today's NFL.
A 70 year old coach isn't going to change all of that. The rebuild/reload has been a failure. The high priced receiving corps he has brought in have done absolutely nothing of note. The team is sloppily coached and continues to play boneheaded football. And BB has grown alarmingly conservative as time has passed by consistently passing up chance to go for it on 4th down, seemingly preferring to try to win with FGs. He also still cannot figure out a way to stop running QBs, and as the league continues to evolve mobile QBs are going to be the norm.
I'd like to see him pass that scumbag Shula for the wins record too but we usually don't get storybook endings and it's not going to happen.
None of this is working. Better to pull off the Band Aid and start fresh.
Exactly this. People railing against how unrealistic it is to gut the staff are making a hyperbolic, bad faith argument. Hire a new OC. I think Judge and Patricia are more than smart/capable enough to be reassigned to other positions. Maybe also bring in experienced OL and QB coaches. That’s it. I’d leave the defensive staff alone.
I’m pretty sure Jerod Mayo is a free agent after that season and I wouldn’t be shocked to either see him get a head coaching job or a defensive coordinator position elsewhere.
As painful as yesterday was, we should have won. This offense is a disaster (and I will grant that BB owns most of that) and yet we were arguably a horrible call away from being 8-6 and charting our own destiny for a playoff spot. BB's mistakes as a GM are well documented, particularly on O, but as a coach he continues to get blood from a stone and win games. 10 wins with a rookie QB last season was tremendous accomplishment.
Look, I get that people are going to gripe about the penalties, and all the micro stuff. It's all bad and I'm down on the franchise right now. But Bill still gets more results from his team, relative to its talent level, than just about any other coach. You think Robert Saleh or Mike McDaniel would have 7 wins with this team? Dan Campbell? Jeff Saturday? Todd Bowles? Nathaniel Hackett? Kliff Kingsbury? Dennis Allen? Arthur Smith? Brandon Staley? Matt LaFleur?
Bill the GM has been bad for O. His staff on O and special teams stinks. But as a game planning and game day coach he's still in the upper echelon.
That's a pretty compelling argument there, SJH.
I'm still of the opinion that if the Pats fire BB, there are a ton of teams that would snap him up in a heartbeat, and he'd be wildly successful wherever he goes because he's still good at this. And there is no guarantee at ALL that the Pats getting rid of him would improve their coaching situation.
So let's say you're right that Mac is unfixable. Ok. If you get rid of BB, then you have a massive hole at QB *and* at HC. The two most important spots in the organization. So now we're looking at an even more unlikely rebuild.
I will say that even as someone who championed them drafting Mac and has been very supportive of Mac, even *I* am starting to be pretty darned discouraged about him.
I’m kind of ok after a few hours to reflect. I thought this team has been a little worse than it’s record. Kind of got lucky with the opponents’ QB situation for the Steelers, Jets and Colts. Maybe AZ too. They have been competitive with teams by what seems like smoke and mirrors at times but losing in crunch time. They were in position today but it would have been kind of a flattering win. They are an incomplete team that does one thing very well. I actually think to get close to .500 with such severe weak links is surprising. Would have loved to have seen what this defense could have done with a complimentary offense and opponents that were feeling like they had to take chances. Could have been epic.
I was actually a little worried that if they won today and picked off one of the last three the story would be that they just needed some tweaks and a change at OC. I am sort of hoping that this game will be enough of a big thing that Bill will think a little harder about truly being disruptive in the off season. I think we need a little more than tweaks.
It sucks now having a worst play ever(tm). I think the hardest part about this year is learning you can’t be a great situation team if the team is not already very good. For all our praise of Bill’s situational awareness, I am not sure that I understood that sound situational play is something that is possible to do only when you already have the basics covered. Certainly there are great teams that have shitty situational awareness, but it seems that when you are bad you are just very bad around the horn.
I don’t know what disruptive means in this context. But I want Bill to have all options on the table and I am looking forward to what he comes up with. As frustrated as we are with this, he is feeling it 1000 times worse. What happened yesterday is gutting for him and there’s no doubt that he feels personally accountable, for all the bullshit takes in this thread.
I was actually a little worried that if they won today and picked off one of the last three the story would be that they just needed some tweaks and a change at OC. I am sort of hoping that this game will be enough of a big thing that Bill will think a little harder about truly being disruptive in the off season. I think we need a little more than tweaks.
It sucks now having a worst play ever(tm). I think the hardest part about this year is learning you can’t be a great situation team if the team is not already very good. For all our praise of Bill’s situational awareness, I am not sure that I understood that sound situational play is something that is possible to do only when you already have the basics covered. Certainly there are great teams that have shitty situational awareness, but it seems that when you are bad you are just very bad around the horn.
I don’t know what disruptive means in this context. But I want Bill to have all options on the table and I am looking forward to what he comes up with. As frustrated as we are with this, he is feeling it 1000 times worse. What happened yesterday is gutting for him and there’s no doubt that he feels personally accountable, for all the bullshit takes in this thread.
Based on what, exactly? Show me this upper echelon game planning and game day coaching, because myself and the rest of Pats Nation is eagerly awaiting your answer. What I saw yesterday was the opposite of upper echelon game planning and game day coaching.
And FFS, spare me the "BB gets more out of his bad personnel choices than any bad coach I can think of." He doesn't get credit for tying one hand behind his back, and comparing him to other bad coaches does nothing to further the analysis of what we're seeing week to week.
Has there ever been a more undisciplined team under BB? I wonder why this is. BB is know to preach minimizing mistakes, and is known to preach situational football. Yesterdays clusterfuck notwithstanding, this whole season seems to have had too many mistakes in nearly every game.
I think if they need to move on from Mac, that's the perfect time to get a new HC and system in here too. I wouldn't want a soon to retire BB choosing yet another franchise QB. Let a new, younger guy pick his QB and go from there.
Obviously I have the utmost respect for BB as a coach, there's no one who can match his accomplishments. But at some point the game does pass a man by, either by speed or by scheme. On paper it made sense for BB to hire guys he knew he could work with comfortably. But that hasn't worked out on the field.
I'm immensely frustrated with this as well, and it defies all logical explanation. One thing to keep in mind is that unlike past iterations of the team, the guys on this team largely haven't won anything at all. Yes there are holdovers like DMac and Slater but for the most part the team's best players don't know what it's like to win, don't know what it takes to win, largely haven't been there before. So getting buy in might well be more difficult than any of us guessed because of that.
I think the answer is something I said above but not all that well. That maybe situational awareness is really only a thing that you can do well when the team is already good. It isn’t something that can make a bad team mediocre or mediocre team good. It is something you can really only work on and practice and preach when you have the luxury of having the basics covered.
Oy vey. I just told you, we're 7-7 with an offense that is practically non-functional. And I provided a dozen examples of coaches who are highly unlikely to have 7 wins with this squad.
If you just want to rant and say "FIRE BILL" that's fine. You don't need to lash out at someone who think a guy who's literally the greatest head coach of all-time in his sport probably didn't forget how to do his job over the span of 30 months.
The constant false starts and time outs in the red zone bullshit has nothing to do with being good or bad. It's straight up terrible coaching.
I don't think undisciplined is quite right--when I think of undisciplined I think of the Raiders and it's not like they're getting a ton of roughing calls or something. It's more like repeatedly and routinely sloppy with the fale starts, bad timeouts, motion penalties, holds that took place because someone was trying to save the QB from being killed after a missed assignment, etc. And it's all ont he offensive side of the ball.
I do think part of having a team that is disciplined/not sloppy is having the right players, especially veteran players. On offense it's a young team with very few players who have been in the Pats system more than 2 years (only Myers at the skill positions) and the football IQ of the people with more experience (Brown, Wynn, Smith for starters) is leaving something to be desired.
Bingo. By and large, teams with good players are the teams who make fewer mistakes. Because the players are good. Good OLmen don't get as many penalties as bad OLmen, because the good ones don't need to hold to keep rushers from whizzing past them. Good WRs don't get false start penalties like bad ones, because the bad ones aren't talented enough to get off the line quickly and beat their defender.
Coaching helps with all this, no doubt. But to me the biggest reason why we're undisciplined is because we have a team full of mediocre-to-lousy players. And those players rack up penalties trying to cover their medciore-ness.
Don‘t agree at all. It’s literally the same coach. You think he just forgot? That’s ludicrous. When you are a turnstile on the OL and doing everything in your power to avoid holding on every play, you don’t have the luxury to be thinking about and practicing the finer points. When your QB is indecisive and gets to the line with 10 seconds on the play clock, you are just barely holding on. Competent well oiled units have the luxury to think situationally.
For starters, I don't want to FIRE BILL. I'm asking the same question as you - how does a coach forget how to do his job this quickly? What is really going on? Your answer is as good as mine, but all I know is that BB controls everything down to the flush level in the toilets at Gillette, so the discussion starts with him.
But this "crappy coaches would be even worse" argument is terrible - it's purely hypothetical and impossible to argue. If anything I think this team is underperforming, but if you want to make the argument that Belichick is actually OUTperforming his talent level and doing a good job, go ahead and make it on this board. I'm willing to listen.
What happened is that he's been a terrible GM on the offensive side of the ball, from the players he's brought in to the staff he hired. I think it's that simple. We have 2 weapons on O (Rham and Harris) and a roster of utter mediocrity at best beyond them. He still knows how to coach which is why he's dragged this carcass of an O to 7 wins, largely because of the D and beating crappy teams.
He needs to gut the O staff and rebuild the roster. Not sure that's feasible to do in an off-season since we've already seen that his instincts on FA signings and high-level drafting is lousy there.
I have 4 screens going right now in my office. CNBC, ESPN, ESPN2, and NFL Network.
On all three sports networks, they are literally talking about the Patriots gaffe and showing the "highlights". All three!
That play really is a defining scarlet letter. It's so sad to see this happening.
On all three sports networks, they are literally talking about the Patriots gaffe and showing the "highlights". All three!
That play really is a defining scarlet letter. It's so sad to see this happening.
So that's it? He just tells his best buddy Matty P to hit the road, and then what? Do you think he's willing to bring in a young offensive mind to tell him how to do things? Are we sticking with Mac?
You don't get to pick and choose the parts of BB that you like a la carte. If you like his defensive mind, you get his terrible offensive mind, his GM skills, his coaching choices, and everything else that comes with the package. The discussion is whether that little defensive pastry is worth the shit sandwich that comes with it.
Of course I do. Every coach on Earth has strengths and weaknesses, and you evaluate them on their totality. What are you even talking about now?
Yes it'll be remembered. But then they'll remember the six Lombardis sitting in Foxboro. Or at least we can gently remind them of that.
That is a good point. If not this offseason, likely soon.
With regards to FA, let's remember that the FO is different than it was two years ago. We also don't know how much McDaniels opinion weighed into the offensive FAs. Obviously Bill has the final say but there are some new voices and voices in different roles than previous.
On the O roster. The OL for sure could use a rebuild, probably look for at least three new bodies there and they could use a top WR. RB is fine and WR depth is fine. If they can upgrade Meyers that will be huge. Not counting on it though.
QB is the big question mark. Mac has not grown and above average QBs are not always easy to acquire. I expect he'll be starting next year but won't be shocked if they go in different direction.
Sure, and the totality right now is a terribly coached team. The defense is good, the offense is abysmal, the special teams is below average, the in-game coaching is terrible, and the clock management is god awful. So the totality is that BB, who is ultimately responsible for all of that, sucks right now. Do you have a different evaluation of what we are seeing?
They'll remember them, but more for Tom than BB, like it or not. Nobody is going to be calling him a "genius" several years from now. It will be the Tom Brady story, with a little help from BB.
This is laughable. In a few years, BB will have the most wins in NFL history, and will have the most SB titles in NFL history (already has that). He will be remembered for his incredible game plans to stop the Rams in SB 36 and SB 53, and even the Bills in SB 20 when he was DC for the Giants.
And Brady will overshadow all of that. The story of the Patriots will be Brady and his 6 rings (+1). BB's legacy is getting torched with every game like this, in terms of national fan perspective. I'm just the messenger.
BB’s legacy is secure. Every great coach has had teams play terrible games. What are you talking about?
Got bad news for you: Bill is a first ballot Hall of Fame coach. Neither this season nor Meyer’s Boner change that. Those flags do indeed fly forever.
Secure as a good coach who benefited from the GOAT QB, sure. But the GOAT coach? That will be debated for ages. Does the GOAT coach put the product we're seeing on the field right now? I don't care what other "all-time" coaches did. If he's the GOAT coach, he's better than anyone who ever stepped on the sidelines, and his accomplishments should back that up, including what we're seeing right now.. His 2022 campaign has been demonstrably terrible. It's not a slam dunk anymore.
They will, and they will get more salutes for Brady than BB given what we've seen in the past few years.
So, two choices. You go on the coaching market and hopefully hit on your first or second try. You find a competent quarterback eventually either in Mac or you use draft capital and get a $25 million player like Winston or Tannehill ot Goff. Or you tank and get a flyer in 2024 or 2025.
And then what? Best case you are what? The Titans? Still going to lose to the Bills and Chiefs and maybe the Bengals for the next few years. More likely you are firing coaches every two years for a couple cycles until you find a decent one and you are a few years from even hoping to be the Titans. The road back for the dynasties is long and complicated.
Or you stick with Bill and see what he can do for another two years. This seems like an easy choice. Even if you are in the “it was all only Brady” camp (which is fucking absurd), at least you must have some suspicion you were wrong. Let’s see what he can do. Everything they tried this year went to shit. Let’s see what a Belichick motivated by a dumpster fire can do. If he really is as shitty as some in this thread seem to think, then seriously, what is it really going to cost us? He’s potentially much better than any bullshit alternative right now. Let’s see.
Six trophies is a lot. There’s no magic wand out there. Let’s just relax a little and see how the guy responds.
And then what? Best case you are what? The Titans? Still going to lose to the Bills and Chiefs and maybe the Bengals for the next few years. More likely you are firing coaches every two years for a couple cycles until you find a decent one and you are a few years from even hoping to be the Titans. The road back for the dynasties is long and complicated.
Or you stick with Bill and see what he can do for another two years. This seems like an easy choice. Even if you are in the “it was all only Brady” camp (which is fucking absurd), at least you must have some suspicion you were wrong. Let’s see what he can do. Everything they tried this year went to shit. Let’s see what a Belichick motivated by a dumpster fire can do. If he really is as shitty as some in this thread seem to think, then seriously, what is it really going to cost us? He’s potentially much better than any bullshit alternative right now. Let’s see.
Six trophies is a lot. There’s no magic wand out there. Let’s just relax a little and see how the guy responds.
I go by wins and losses which show mediocrity. Not “sucking”.
Then I evaluate strengths and weaknesses for their record. The offense stinks, especially QB. I’d replace the coordinator and QB.
If the overall coaching was so bad they wouldn’t win half the time. Especially if the offense is as bad as you and I claim.
Horeshit. He also drafted, and played a big role in developing Brady, particularly in their first 5 years or so. It’s chicken and egg. They’ll both be linked together when discussing the dynasty.
Right, the guy who developed what has been hailed as the greatest defensive game plan in history as a DC, the guy who went to 13 AFC champ games, 9 Super Bowls, and won 6... that guy will only be seen as a "good coach" because he's been .500 in three seasons post-Brady. You're off your rocker.
This feels like the 62-7 drubbing that Don Shula endured in his final game. It'll be remembered, but only as a sad footnote to a great career.
I mean, these are all just adjectives. Mediocre, sucking, what's the difference? They are not good.
If I thought they would replace the OC and QB next year I'd be ecstatic, until I remember who's picking both of those and who picked the last ones.
They’re currently a .500 team. The fact that you are calling that “demonstrably terrible” I think says more about how entitled some Pats fans are after 20ish years of amazing success.
Has this been a good season? Not particularly, no. But they’ve been okay, and some of their losses have been very fluky/weird which, yes, you can say is due to a lack of coaching but you can also say is just idiosyncratic and would be unlikely to happen again.
I’m not really saying this season go on BB’s highlight reel or anything but to suggest that he has irretrievably tarnished his legacy because he went .500 (or, whatever, even 7-10 if that’s where they end up) is being ridiculously over-dramatic.
Not here, but everywhere else? Definitely. Again, I'm just the messenger. Go ask a non-Pats fan, if it matters to you. He's not going to get the praise he does here with his post-Brady performance.
If your takeaway from this season is that they are .500 team, no more no less, then that's your take. I think they're much worse, and there are major, major issues. They have not been "okay."
Oh for Pete’s sake.
It feels like this thread should be closed for a day or two so people could just take a moment.
I interact with FAR more non-Pats fans than Pats fans. And literally every one thinks BB is the greatest coach of all time. Every one. Today.
You're so far off base you're not even in the ballpark.