Kyrie went 5-16 in getting eliminated and we have schadenfreude.

Auger34

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A playoff series I might go Kyrie. A full season it’s 100% Holiday. Like not even close
 

Euclis20

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If you needed to win a championship, who would you rather have on your team, Kyrie or Jrue Holliday? Irving can score more, but Holliday is a much better defender, capable lead passer, infinitely more reliable and hasn't quit on three different franchises. I think most people would still pick Kyrie, which kind of speaks to perceived value of being able to score 8 extra points per game in dazzling fashion.
And anyone taking that 8 points per game is ignoring the fact that over the last 4 years (since Kyrie left Boston), Holiday has scored 349 more total than Kyrie. Reliability will always be criminally underrated.
 

teddywingman

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I don't know much about basketball, but didn’t the 2018 team thrive in that playoff run when Kyrie was out?

I was watching that year, and it seemed like the team got better without him.
 

Fishy1

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Jrue might be my #1 most underrated guy in the league. I'd pick Jrue over Kyrie in a cocaine heartbeat.
For what it's worth -- taking into account all the availability issues and Kyrie's positively psychotic and poisonous personality -- DARKO agrees...
62235
 

jose melendez

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Having worked on fundraising extensively with Mass ALS, including auctions and softball bashes originating here on SoSH, I was pretty consistently underwhelmed, and often extraordinarily disappointed, by Mr Schilling’s commitment and contributions to the cause. Performative is the word that comes to mind.
That's the nicest thing I've heard you say about him in 15 years.
 

Euclis20

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The silver lining for Kyrie missing so much time last year and earlier this year is that most people seemed to forget that, in addition to everything else, durability has been a major concern for most of his career. Since leaving Cleveland, he's missed 22, 15, 52, 18, 53 and (so far) 17 games. He turns 31 on Thursday.
 

Van Everyman

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It's all fun and games until Ballmer decides Kyrie is the answer to the Clippers' PG woes ;)

If Dallas takes their Kyrie medicine, who are the TOP5 destinations?
Wait, you aren’t really suggesting it will finally work out for Kyrie once he’s paired with Kawhi and Paul George, are you? Because forget what I said before – if he goes to the Clippers, he absolutely deserves entry to Springfield based on his generationally elite team killing skills.
 

Reverend

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He is the bringer of death. And every owner is an egomaniac to some extent. They all think that they can fix guys.
Holy shit.

I just realized how many sports movies are basically the same as rom-coms where the female lead tries to “fix” the male lead.

Like, I knew there were similarities with some
sports movies, e.g. Bull Durham, but this lens waaaaay expands how many… heh. Wow.
 

Auger34

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He is the bringer of death. And every owner is an egomaniac to some extent. They all think that they can fix guys.
Has there been any athlete in the history of team sports who can completely nuke the team that they are on like Kyrie? I mean this is now 4 franchises that his mere presence has submarined them
 

BaseballJones

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If you needed to win a championship, who would you rather have on your team, Kyrie or Jrue Holliday?
Funny... Yesterday at the UConn gym a bunch of guys were arguing over who would you rather have, Jrue or Trae Young. The opinion amongst the 6-7 guys there was pretty equally divided.
 

djbayko

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Auger34

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LOVE this quote. There are many ways to handle / address a home crowd booing situation. And then there's the Kyrie way of shitting on them while simultaneously calling attention to his own greatness. I can't wait until he (literally) starts giving Mavs fans the finger.
So true. All of his quotes somehow come back to his greatness, he must be a seriously insecure individual
 

nattysez

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Has there been any athlete in the history of team sports who can completely nuke the team that they are on like Kyrie? I mean this is now 4 franchises that his mere presence has submarined them
A friend of mine texted me the same question and we are stumped. I considered Reggie Jackson, but it's hard for a baseball player to tank his team the same way Kyrie did while still playing at a high level (and Reggie's teams were usually good).

Anthony Davis might be up there if he'd been on more teams.

And Ben Simmons is working on that resume, but I don't know if he'll get more chances.
 

Auger34

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A friend of mine texted me the same question and we are stumped. I considered Reggie Jackson, but it's hard for a baseball player to tank his team the same way Kyrie did while still playing at a high level (and Reggie's teams were usually good).

Anthony Davis might be up there if he'd been on more teams.

And Ben Simmons is working on that resume, but I don't know if he'll get more chances.
Reggie was before my time so I can’t speak to that one.

The only name that comes to mind for me as close to Kyrie is Harden. He destroyed Houston on the way out. I give him a pass for Brooklyn because that was clearly in response to Kyries nonsense
 

Squeteague

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Reggie was before my time so I can’t speak to that one.

The only name that comes to mind for me as close to Kyrie is Harden. He destroyed Houston on the way out. I give him a pass for Brooklyn because that was clearly in response to Kyries nonsense
Reggie Jackson had a Hugh ego, but he produced, he played in and won five World Series, while hitting 10 home runs (three on three pitches in 1977) and batting .357.
 

Euclis20

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Funny... Yesterday at the UConn gym a bunch of guys were arguing over who would you rather have, Jrue or Trae Young. The opinion amongst the 6-7 guys there was pretty equally divided.
This isn't too surprising and really depends on the exact question. If it's a question of who helps you win a title this year, I don't think anyone passes on holiday. If it's about who do you want to start a franchise with, or who you'd rather have going forward, Youngs massive edge in offense and age (he's 8 years younger) swing things the other way for me.
 

Jimbodandy

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This isn't too surprising and really depends on the exact question. If it's a question of who helps you win a title this year, I don't think anyone passes on holiday. If it's about who do you want to start a franchise with, or who you'd rather have going forward, Youngs massive edge in offense and age (he's 8 years younger) swing things the other way for me.
I think that most of the division in "who would you rather have" comes down to how much one values defense. Most people still respect a few super high level defenders and put everyone else in the "other" bucket and don't care.
 

Kliq

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If I'm starting a franchise, I'm probably not going to be a contender if Jrue or Trae are my best player. So it that sense, I'd definitely rather have Jrue because I'm going to need him to mesh with at least one person who is better than him, which is a seamless fit for Jrue and a huge question mark for Trae. The answer is the same for a Kyrie/Jrue question, I'd much rather have Jrue because he's an ace second banana and Kyrie is an unstable nut.

If I like, had to win 35 games or I'd die, I'd probably pick Trae just because his scoring and playmaking raises the floor higher than what Jrue does.
 

Smokey Joe

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Has there been any athlete in the history of team sports who can completely nuke the team that they are on like Kyrie? I mean this is now 4 franchises that his mere presence has submarined them
Interestingly, I think the person who comes closest is Lebron. The difference is that he raises the team up so much with his play that you don’t realize how bad the rest of the team has become until he leaves. Miami is the only team that has escaped this so far and that is because Riley wouldn’t contort himself to please Lebron. I can’t wait to see what the Lakers look like when he leaves (or becomes an ordinary player, not a transformational one. Which is what may be happening now.)
 

Kliq

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Interestingly, I think the person who comes closest is Lebron. The difference is that he raises the team up so much with his play that you don’t realize how bad the rest of the team has become until he leaves. Miami is the only team that has escaped this so far and that is because Riley wouldn’t contort himself to please Lebron. I can’t wait to see what the Lakers look like when he leaves (or becomes an ordinary player, not a transformational one. Which is what may be happening now.)
LeBron's MO throughout his career has been to squeeze every potential future asset out of the franchise he is on, and then bolt as soon as he sees that supporting casts window closing. That's why the teams he leaves behind are often a mess.
 

Jimbodandy

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If I'm starting a franchise, I'm probably not going to be a contender if Jrue or Trae are my best player. So it that sense, I'd definitely rather have Jrue because I'm going to need him to mesh with at least one person who is better than him, which is a seamless fit for Jrue and a huge question mark for Trae. The answer is the same for a Kyrie/Jrue question, I'd much rather have Jrue because he's an ace second banana and Kyrie is an unstable nut.

If I like, had to win 35 games or I'd die, I'd probably pick Trae just because his scoring and playmaking raises the floor higher than what Jrue does.
This is a good post. If your team sucks and you need pointz and asses in seats, then Trae is a no brainer over Jrue. I think that the presumption in a "who would you rather have" conversation is that this discussion is among fans of teams who don't suck, because teams who suck have fans who sit around and discuss other shit.
 

Kliq

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This is a good post. If your team sucks and you need pointz and asses in seats, then Trae is a no brainer over Jrue. I think that the presumption in a "who would you rather have" conversation is that this discussion is among fans of teams who don't suck, because teams who suck have fans who sit around and discuss other shit.
Realistically, you need one of the six or seven best players in the league to make the Finals, so "who would you rather start a franchise with?" is a moot point unless you are talking about one of those players.

I'm a big fan of guys who have skillsets that can play well with other star players. Kyrie does have a good skillset in that regard, at least on offense, because of his ability to play on and off-ball, but mentally he's such a shitty teammate that it nullifies those benefits to me.

Small guards are a tough fit because you can really only ever have one of them on the floor at all times, so you really have to build everything around that defining aspect. Even someone like Steph needs to have a certain set of players around him in a way that a player like Tatum does not.
 

Euclis20

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I'm not particularly bullish on Trae Young (on his best day, I think he's a younger healthier Celtics' era Isaiah Thomas), but I think some of this is a bit unfair. Jrue Holiday spent a full decade basically looking like Malcolm Brogdon - a solid all around point guard with durability issues who was essentially a really good role player. Then he landed on the same team as the best player in the league and another all-star, and now he is on everyone's list of most underrated players (which means he's no longer all that underrated). Maybe he's figured something out, or maybe he's just landed in the perfect spot (where he can be the third scorer and play aggressive defense with two excellent rim protectors behind him). I agree that it's harder to build a title team around a small guard who is a major negative defensively, but Atlanta has done a pretty shitty job at it anyway. He's not Curry, but it's hard to lead the league in both points and assists at age 23. For his sake, I hope he gets to play with an all-star big man (who is a + defensively) before it's too late.
 

Auger34

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Interestingly, I think the person who comes closest is Lebron. The difference is that he raises the team up so much with his play that you don’t realize how bad the rest of the team has become until he leaves. Miami is the only team that has escaped this so far and that is because Riley wouldn’t contort himself to please Lebron. I can’t wait to see what the Lakers look like when he leaves (or becomes an ordinary player, not a transformational one. Which is what may be happening now.)
He also takes the teams he’s on to heights that Kyrie could only dream of (as a best player, a team with Kyrie as it’s best player/leader would be a fucking disaster)

Or if I could put it another way, LeBron has brought a title to every team he’s played for. Fans of the teams he was on generally like him (Cleveland I think loved him, Miami I would say likes him) fans of the teams Kyrie has played for pretty much universally hate him
 

Tony C

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Yeah, I don’t get the LeBron analogy at all. LBJ brings championships and Kyrie brings destruction with the sole, and quite telling, example of when he was with LeBron. Even more telling that Kyrie blew that up immediately.

exactly the opposite, no?
 

Reverend

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Yeah, I don’t get the LeBron analogy at all. LBJ brings championships and Kyrie brings destruction with the sole, and quite telling, example of when he was with LeBron. Even more telling that Kyrie blew that up immediately.

exactly the opposite, no?
I’m kinda feeling the “anti-LeBron” illustration, tho. :D
 

NomarsFool

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Basketball is a very unique sport with regards to the level of autonomy that players have with regards to attempt a chance to score. In basketball, there is so often a tension between teammates as to who has the ball and who is shooting it that you just don’t see in other sports. In addition, the importance of effort on defense in basketball along with the fact that there are only 5 people on the floor, just makes it incredibly easy for one player to have a huge negative impact on a game or game situation.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Basketball is a very unique sport with regards to the level of autonomy that players have with regards to attempt a chance to score. In basketball, there is so often a tension between teammates as to who has the ball and who is shooting it that you just don’t see in other sports. In addition, the importance of effort on defense in basketball along with the fact that there are only 5 people on the floor, just makes it incredibly easy for one player to have a huge negative impact on a game or game situation.
Are you referring to numbers or a sort of team chemistry? Dallas is really really bad when one or both of Kyrie or Doncic are off the floor with one of the leagues most efficient offenses when they are both on the floor. The Mavs primary issue, aside from having arguably the worst #3-15 of all playoff teams is their end of game execution. They have 8 losses by two or less possessions since the trade and are 9-13 despite their Pythag at 12-10. They lost 4 of the 5 games Kyrie didn’t play but that roster is simply pitiful with or without him.
 
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