Kyrie went 5-16 in getting eliminated and we have schadenfreude.

kazuneko

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,870
Honolulu HI
Question: who is offering anything close to a max for Kyrie this offseason? And if there are teams interested, would Kyrie consider them. I know the assumption is that the Lakers would be interested but the most they could offer is $31 million ($9 mill less than the max) and that would require withdrawing qualifying offers to Rui, and Reaves, renouncing D’Lo entirely, turning down Beasley’s team option and waiving Reed and Bamba’s non-guaranteed deals. Are they really willing to do that for Kyrie? Would Kyrie even accept $9 mill less than the max? If not, would they package a max-extended D-lo to Dallas in sign-and-trade? Would Dallas even be interested? If LA isn't willing to do any of that who else extends an offer? Would Dallas offer the max? Hard to see why they would unless they fall into the sunk-cost fallacy of having to pay Kyrie since they gave up some assets to get him. If neither Dallas or LA are willing to do extend themselves, who does?
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,093
Question: who is offering anything close to a max for Kyrie this offseason? And if there are teams interested, would Kyrie consider them. I know the assumption is that the Lakers would be interested but the most they could off is $31 million ($9 mill less than the max) and that would require withdrawing qualifying offers to Rui, and Reaves, renouncing D’Lo entirely, turning down Beasley’s team option and waiving Reed and Bamba’s non-guaranteed deals. Are they really willing to do that for Kyrie? Would Kyrie even accept $9 mill less than the qualifying offer? If not, would they package a max-extended D-lo to Dallas in sign-and-trade? Would Dallas even be interested? If LA isn't willing to do any of that who else extends an offer? Would Dallas offer the max? Hard to see why they would unless they fall into the sunk-cost fallacy of having to pay Kyrie since they gave up some assets to get him. If neither Dallas or LA are willing to do extend themselves, who does?
We discussed this last year or earlier this year and I was saying the same thing but unless Luka makes it clear that he doesn’t want him there I can’t imagine the Mavs not paying him. That’s a bottom-5 team without him even with Doncic after giving up Finney-Smith and Dinwiddie in the trade. They are entering the danger zone of losing Luka real soon.
 

kazuneko

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,870
Honolulu HI
We discussed this last year or earlier this year and I was saying the same thing but unless Luka makes it clear that he doesn’t want him there I can’t imagine the Mavs not paying him. That’s a bottom-5 team without him even with Doncic after giving up Finney-Smith and Dinwiddie in the trade. They are entering the danger zone of losing Luka real soon.
And I guess Kyrie resigns there because there is literally no one else offering anything close to the same deal?
I mean, it's ridiculous. Everyone knows he has no interest in being in Dallas and is dead set on getting himself to LA.
Of course, if he really does - grudgingly - resign with Dallas it's almost guaranteed that he'll want out by midseason at the latest, right?
What a shit show. I think Dallas would actually be better off doing a sign-and-trade with the Lakers for D-Lo on a max contract - even though D-Lo on a max contract would be an abomination...
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,411
And I guess Kyrie resigns there because there is literally no one else offering anything close to the same deal?
I mean, it's ridiculous. Everyone knows he has no interest in being in Dallas and is dead set on getting himself to LA.
Of course, if he really does - grudgingly - resign with Dallas it's almost guaranteed that he'll want out by midseason at the latest, right?
What a shit show. I think Dallas would actually be better off doing a sign-and-trade with the Lakers for D-Lo on a max contract - even though D-Lo on a max contract would be an abomination...
Imagine turning Brunson, DFS, Dinwiddie, and a 1st into D-Lo in less than a year.....and that being the better outcome. What a franchise.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,093
And I guess Kyrie resigns there because there is literally no one else offering anything close to the same deal?
I mean, it's ridiculous. Everyone knows he has no interest in being in Dallas and is dead set on getting himself to LA.
Of course, if he really does - grudgingly - resign with Dallas it's almost guaranteed that he'll want out by midseason at the latest, right?
What a shit show. I think Dallas would actually be better off doing a sign-and-trade with the Lakers for D-Lo on a max contract - even though D-Lo on a max contract would be an abomination...
That scenario would be pretty awesome with D-Lo on a max as the Knicks roll into town with their All-NBA point guard. :D

Edit: Oooops, lovegtm had his alarm set before me.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
14,861
South Boston
So I had way too much time on my hands and wanted to see if Kyrie was going to play Brooklyn this year (he isn't). This took me to the Mavs schedule page and the "game leaders" for every game...Holy shit...

I just took a look at Luka's games before Kyrie got there (36 games). And in those games, either he, Wood or Dinwiddle accounted for 105 of the 108 leading scorer/rebounder/assists on the team for the game.

Since the trade it has gotten a little more diverse (obviously), but a lot of it is simply Green taking Dinwiddle's stats.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
6,521
Mavs did not need Kyrie to get better, they needed accountability on defense and uh, better defenders. Someone -anyone - who can disrupt ball movement or defend the rim would have been good. It's kind of enjoyable to watch him fail, I guess. I'd rather not think about the guy at all.

Not that the Demon is a bad defender on any given night, it's just that team is near the bottom of the barrel defense wise while having a borderline top five defense even without Kyrie.

I honestly wonder if cutting bait on Porzingis was like, actively a bad move for that team.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
6,399
Cultural hub of the universe
Are you referring to numbers or a sort of team chemistry? Dallas is really really bad when one or both of Kyrie or Doncic are off the floor with one of the leagues most efficient offenses when they are both on the floor. The Mavs primary issue, aside from having arguably the worst #3-15 of all playoff teams is their end of game execution. They have 8 losses by two or less possessions since the trade and are 9-13 despite their Pythag at 12-10. They lost 4 of the 5 games Kyrie didn’t play but that roster is simply pitiful with or without him.
And another 4th Q. loss tonight at Philly. I was actually rooting for Dallas in this one.
 

kazuneko

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,870
Honolulu HI
Are you referring to numbers or a sort of team chemistry? Dallas is really really bad when one or both of Kyrie or Doncic are off the floor with one of the leagues most efficient offenses when they are both on the floor. The Mavs primary issue, aside from having arguably the worst #3-15 of all playoff teams is their end of game execution. They have 8 losses by two or less possessions since the trade and are 9-13 despite their Pythag at 12-10. They lost 4 of the 5 games Kyrie didn’t play but that roster is simply pitiful with or without him.
Unfortunately for Dallas, this team -at least on the court - really needs Kyrie, which is why they will be tempted to give him a max, even if with him they aren't anything more than a borderline playoff team. But how will a "generational leader" like Kyrie feel about playing second fiddle to Luka on a team going nowhere in a place he never wanted to be in the first place?
This guy acted out on a stacked team in his hometown playing with his best friend, if he signs with Dallas he won't get through training camp without creating issues...
 
Last edited:

Philip Jeff Frye

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2001
10,403
So just looking at ESPN headlines and knowing nothing about details here, but Kyrie got $4 million less than Fred VanVleet on a deal of the same length?
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,094
Isle of Plum
I do remember listening to a Bill Simmons podcast/suck off session with Kyrie when the Sage of Boston was a Celtic. Kyrie must feel a bit betrayed.
To be somewhat fair, Kyrie as a Celtic seems like it was in some kind of alternate universe now, where all things were possible.

Cuban didn’t really have a great choice here, but damn that’s $126m of headache coming down the pipe. Maybe they set that value so it’s easier to trade him for Harden, which feels somehow predestined.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,438
To be somewhat fair, Kyrie as a Celtic seems like it was in some kind of alternate universe now, where all things were possible.

Cuban didn’t really have a great choice here, but damn that’s $126m of headache coming down the pipe. Maybe they set that value so it’s easier to trade him for Harden, which feels somehow predestined.
dallas essentially chose this no-alternatives contract when it traded for him - one of the many bad aspects of that deal.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,284
New York City
I can't believe some of these guys are getting the money they are. Harden, Zion, Kyrie, Kawhi are getting paid so much money and they are unreliable up and cannot be relied on in the regular season and are liabilities in the playoffs because they are always hurt or just bums when it counts. And then they make 40 million dollars a year.

I really don't get it. Yeah yeah, Kyrie is a wizard with the ball when he wants to be. The "when he wants to be" part is the important part. Plus he doesn't play defense and he's getting older, fast.
 

JohnnyTheBone

Member
SoSH Member
May 28, 2007
37,696
Nobody Cares
I can't believe some of these guys are getting the money they are. Harden, Zion, Kyrie, Kawhi are getting paid so much money and they are unreliable up and cannot be relied on in the regular season and are liabilities in the playoffs because they are always hurt or just bums when it counts. And then they make 40 million dollars a year.

I really don't get it. Yeah yeah, Kyrie is a wizard with the ball when he wants to be. The "when he wants to be" part is the important part. Plus he doesn't play defense and he's getting older, fast.
100% with you, jmd20. I guess the concept of building a winning roster has passed me, or the majority of NBA GM's, by.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
49,848
100% with you, jmd20. I guess the concept of building a winning roster has passed me, or the majority of NBA GM's, by.
Again, the new CBA is guiding this market and if you listen to most analysis, these aren't all drunken spending deals.

Player options seem to be more in vogue these days. For the record, those options are for the benefit of the player, not the team but granting them appears to give clubs valuable flexibility. Maybe we see more of these going forward.
 

bsan34

New Member
Jul 31, 2006
364
C'ville, VA / Hingham, MA
I can't believe some of these guys are getting the money they are. Harden, Zion, Kyrie, Kawhi are getting paid so much money and they are unreliable up and cannot be relied on in the regular season and are liabilities in the playoffs because they are always hurt or just bums when it counts. And then they make 40 million dollars a year.

I really don't get it. Yeah yeah, Kyrie is a wizard with the ball when he wants to be. The "when he wants to be" part is the important part. Plus he doesn't play defense and he's getting older, fast.
Whereas Jaylen, imperfect as he is, plays and plays hard.
 

Nick Kaufman

protector of human kind from spoilers
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2003
13,473
A Lost Time
That Simmons tweet was a solid joke and I have to say Kyrie's reaction didn't seem out of line.

The contract however does seem turrible.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,206
I can't believe some of these guys are getting the money they are. Harden, Zion, Kyrie, Kawhi are getting paid so much money and they are unreliable up and cannot be relied on in the regular season and are liabilities in the playoffs because they are always hurt or just bums when it counts. And then they make 40 million dollars a year.

I really don't get it. Yeah yeah, Kyrie is a wizard with the ball when he wants to be. The "when he wants to be" part is the important part. Plus he doesn't play defense and he's getting older, fast.
Zion is at least young. But I really don't get signing guys -- especially guards-- much over 31 or 32 anymore. There are so few at that age that a team can be built around, and these guys demand to be built around.
 

Swedgin

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2013
705
Kyrie reading Simmon's tweet & reacting to it is pure gold...

Celtic fans are the Kings of Petty, wherever Kyrie goes we'll be there to crap on him.
On that front, worth noting that he lost himself upwards of 50M by not taking the max extension from the Nets when it was on the table.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,947
Santa Monica

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
8,112
So Kyrie wasn’t happy on an always contending Cleveland team with a ball dominant LeBron, but Dallas thought he would be happy on a middling Mavs team with a ball dominant Doncic? Not even taking in all the craziness in Boston and Brooklyn, this was idiotic by Cuban and the Mavs.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
1,466
There were all kinds of stipulations (like winning a Championship) & basically why Kyrie demanded a trade. It wasn't guaranteed.
Where in that article does it list "Winning a Championship" as a guarantee stipulation? I heard reported via Russillo that the guarantees were just playing time guarantees - if he was healthy, they wanted him to play in actual basketball games, and they would pay him handsomely for doing so.

I guess this contract is a win for him b/c he still got $40 million, but both he and Harden have cost themselves between 50-100 million by being petulant and unreliable.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,947
Santa Monica
Where in that article does it list "Winning a Championship" as a guarantee stipulation? I heard reported via Russillo that the guarantees were just playing time guarantees - if he was healthy, they wanted him to play in actual basketball games, and they would pay him handsomely for doing so.

I guess this contract is a win for him b/c he still got $40 million, but both he and Harden have cost themselves between 50-100 million by being petulant and unreliable.
Kyrie has had multiple issues at every stop it's really hard to keep up with all the extension offers, follow-up problems and teams rescinding offers after dealing with this freak.

He hoodwinked Danny (and us), but the rest of the League doesn't really have an excuse to trust him (Marks actually had a firmer hand at the end)

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-insulted-by-nets-putting-championship-stipulation-in-contract-offer-per-report/


According to Bleacher Report's Chris Haynes, the Nets recently offered Irving a contract extension that included a championship stipulation, and Irving took that as "a big insult."

Haynes didn't provide any clarity on what, exactly, this "championship stipulation" entailed. Reports earlier in the day indicated that Irving wasn't happy with the final year of Brooklyn's proposed contract not being guaranteed. Might that final year become guaranteed if the Nets were to win a title between now and then?

Whatever the stipulation, Irving views himself as a caliber of player that shouldn't have to mess with non-guaranteed years on a contract. He's reportedly insulted such an offer would even be made. So he's out. Well, at least he says he wants out.
 
Last edited:

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
1,466
Kyrie has had multiple issues at every stop it's really hard to keep up with all the extension offers, follow-up problems and teams rescinding offers after dealing with this freak.

He hoodwinked Danny (and us), but the rest of the League doesn't really have an excuse to trust him (Marks actually had a firmer hand at the end)

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-insulted-by-nets-putting-championship-stipulation-in-contract-offer-per-report/


According to Bleacher Report's Chris Haynes, the Nets recently offered Irving a contract extension that included a championship stipulation, and Irving took that as "a big insult."

Haynes didn't provide any clarity on what, exactly, this "championship stipulation" entailed. Reports earlier in the day indicated that Irving wasn't happy with the final year of Brooklyn's proposed contract not being guaranteed. Might that final year become guaranteed if the Nets were to win a title between now and then?

Whatever the stipulation, Irving views himself as a caliber of player that shouldn't have to mess with non-guaranteed years on a contract. He's reportedly insulted such an offer would even be made. So he's out. Well, at least he says he wants out.
Got it - that wasn't in the other article. I would imagine that there are two different things that the Nets asked for, and it seems like Kyrie is trying to conflate them. Kyrie would earn extra money in the event of a championship (lots of players have this bonus built into contracts) and there was a non-guaranteed year that's probably tied to him playing a certain number of games in the years leading up to it.

I don't think Kyrie or Haynes deserve the benefit of the doubt. I don't think Sean Marks is the most honest of brokers but it feels very unlikely that he'd tie whole seasons of guarantees to a championship.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
47,727
Hartford, CT
Haynes was just on a podcast the other day suggesting that the Blazers should send Lillard to Miami, even for a shittier package than what other teams may offer, because other players - like Scoot Henderson - will be watching to see if they treat Lillard well when considering whether to sign/extend with Portland. His reporting and analysis comes almost entirely from the players’ camp, with some lip service to the teams’ interests thrown in enough to not make it as obvious what is going on.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
5,005
Saint Paul, MN
Haynes was just on a podcast the other day suggesting that the Blazers should send Lillard to Miami, even for a shittier package than what other teams may offer, because other players - like Scoot Henderson - will be watching to see if they treat Lillard well when considering whether to sign/extend with Portland. His reporting and analysis comes almost entirely from the players’ camp, with some lip service to the teams’ interests thrown in enough to not make it as obvious what is going on.
Portland gave Dame an ungodly sum of money. They have treated him fantastic
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
493
Haynes was just on a podcast the other day suggesting that the Blazers should send Lillard to Miami, even for a shittier package than what other teams may offer, because other players - like Scoot Henderson - will be watching to see if they treat Lillard well when considering whether to sign/extend with Portland. His reporting and analysis comes almost entirely from the players’ camp, with some lip service to the teams’ interests thrown in enough to not make it as obvious what is going on.
The "players see how a team treats others" is something I take with a giant grain of salt. The Lakers could not push Ball/Hart/Ingram out the door fast enough when AD was available and no one seems to recoil in horror at how the Lakers treat people. Danny dumped a damaged IT and the only impact that had was AD's dad using it as a talking point to ensure his son made it to... the Lakers. I am not saying it has no impact, but I bet there are a billion reasons (roster, location of city, coach, organizational reputation for competence, salary, etc.) why a player would want in/out of a situation before you get to how they treated other players in different situations. Besides, its pretty easy to take the "its just business" or "that was a different person in a different situation" perspective when this stuff goes on.
To your point, that shit about Scoot watching it closely is bullshit. That's likely planted by others who are firmly in Dame's camp and couldn't give a shit less what Scoot's people think.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,095
around the way
It's one thing to blow off a star's request to be traded. That looks bad and sours your name around the league. But there's no obligation to trade a guy to his preferred destination, especially if there is a better offer out there. The teams have to look out for themselves too. And no team is making a deal worrying about a guy who hasn't played a game for them yet. Like I'm not sure that Lebron or Kareem got that level of consideration entering the league, nevermind the #3 pick in a pedestrian draft (beyond Victor).
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,518
Haynes is a hack.

Also the "other players are watching" stuff is dumb... it's Portland. Nobody goes there unless you offer them the most money, nobody who was going to go to Portland is not because you traded Dame to a different contender, Scoot isn't saying "I was gonna take the Supermax rookie extension like every other player ever offerred it, but they were mean to the guy I replaced who didn't want me here in the first place...."
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
23,204
Haynes is a hack.

Also the "other players are watching" stuff is dumb... it's Portland. Nobody goes there unless you offer them the most money, nobody who was going to go to Portland is not because you traded Dame to a different contender, Scoot isn't saying "I was gonna take the Supermax rookie extension like every other player ever offerred it, but they were mean to the guy I replaced who didn't want me here in the first place...."
Scoot, who hasn't played a game for Portland yet and was drafted last week. The Dame trade would be ancient history by the time extension talk starts coming around, and if anything, it would be more important for Portland to surround Scoot with good young players over the next few years in order to convince him to stick around. Trading Dame for .25 cents on the dollar so that Scoot plays on shitty teams with little support for his first few years seems way more damaging than trading Dame to his non-preferred destination.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
21,626
Haynes was just on a podcast the other day suggesting that the Blazers should send Lillard to Miami, even for a shittier package than what other teams may offer, because other players - like Scoot Henderson - will be watching to see if they treat Lillard well when considering whether to sign/extend with Portland. His reporting and analysis comes almost entirely from the players’ camp, with some lip service to the teams’ interests thrown in enough to not make it as obvious what is going on.
Simmons brings up this point all the time on his podcast and it's a good one. There's probably plenty of examples of teams doing favors for agents/players, but how often do they ever get paid back? I can't think of many examples. Maybe the Lakers signing Klutch guys to suck up to LeBron before he jumped there?
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,518
Simmons brings up this point all the time on his podcast and it's a good one. There's probably plenty of examples of teams doing favors for agents/players, but how often do they ever get paid back? I can't think of many examples.
There are some... Horford signing that discount extension, Harden last summer signing for less than he could have, Bobby Portis signing a 1 year well below what he could have and trusting the team would make good on it the next summer... there are definitely some. I would guess there is also some behind the scenes stuff like pulling draftees from workouts to steer them to a team with a promise, etc.

Edit- I forgot the big one... all the "players can't tamper" negotiations that go on with players and agents that help teams a lot.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,528
Lillard has leverage when it comes to asking for a trade. But Portland has leverage when it comes to carrying out the trade. They don’t need to be bullied by hacks like Haynes or some random player agency.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,947
Santa Monica
Jason Timpf. He's on Colin Cowherd's podcast network The Volume. Draymond Green & Jason Timpf probably have the biggest hoops followings on The Volume.

He's pretty good but a complete Laker/Klutch homer (which can be somewhat entertaining, esp. when the Lakers were struggling with Russ)