Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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moly99

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This whole thing is nonsensical, which makes me think it was being driven by Gilbert. If Thomas really is finished for the year, then how does a 2nd round pick fix that? And if he isn't, then why bother trying to extract more?

I once lost $5k as a broke college student to a corrupt boss who ruined our company and somehow escaped with major personal profit, so I won't ask how Gilbert could get rich by being so stupid. (The answer is that these guys use other peoples' money to take the profits themselves without any of the risk.) But he will get what's coming to him with the Cavs. When LeBron leaves he will go back to being the second coming of Ted Stepien.
 

luckiestman

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Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
 

ALiveH

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Cleveland would be so much better off blowing it all up at this point. Imagine the haul they could get for LBJ (even with the trade protection) and Love. That's what Danny would do - Ainge is a cold hearted killer.
 

bosockboy

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Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
Are there any other logical possibilities for his landing spot? Teams with cap room where he'd actually go?
 

In my lifetime

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This is my favorite part of the O'Connor piece:

"Multiple sources with knowledge of Gilbert’s mind-set believe the Cavs owner cares deeply about how the deal will be seen today and in the future, both internally and across the league—Thomas’s health and a less enthusiastic James and Lue had Gilbert shook."

That is just perfect. The Cav's owner deeply cares about how the deal will be seen today and in the future. Well this about seals it then. Before the drama, most of the league was convinced the deal was a good deal for Cleveland. Now after the drama, the perception has completely changed and the only new news is that Cleveland got a 2nd round pick.

So now the deal is basically
IT for 50 games + the playoffs
Crowder
Zizic
Net 1st: most likely to fallin the 3-7 range
2020 2nd rounder - the only 2nd rounder in history that somehow makes a deal worse for the team getting the pick

For
Kyrie on a 2 yr contract and a pretty good shot of signing him to a max deal through his prime years

I do agree that the pick and Crowder are the most valuable of the pieces going to Cleveland. Yea you know----- a penny, a dime, a quarter, and then a bent quarter that won't fit in the vending machine, which you carry around for 8 months and then lose in the car somewhere for a half dollar.
 

Kid T

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This whole thing is nonsensical, which makes me think it was being driven by Gilbert. If Thomas really is finished for the year, then how does a 2nd round pick fix that? And if he isn't, then why bother trying to extract more?
You answered the question yourself. The holdup wasn't really about IT's health or when he will be ready, it was about Gilberts concern with how this trade would be perceived (from the previously cited O'Connor article from the Ringer

Multiple sources with knowledge of Gilbert’s mind-set believe the Cavs owner cares deeply about how the deal will be seen today and in the future, both internally and across the league
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Cleveland would be so much better off blowing it all up at this point. Imagine the haul they could get for LBJ (even with the trade protection) and Love. That's what Danny would do - Ainge is a cold hearted killer.
Is that true though? No question, every team would love to have Lebron. But I don't think there are a lot of teams out there (other than Golden State) that could offer a package of players and picks that wouldn't leave them bereft of talent to take advantage of getting Lebron. Maybe the Sixers (Fultz/Simmons, Saric, salary filler plus whatever picks don't go to the Celtics). Wolves could trade everyone but Butler and KAT but don't have much in the way of extra picks. When things started going sideways in Cleveland I thought the celtics should have jumped in prior to the draft. There were some player combos plus the two unprotected Brooklyn picks that would have been a nice haul for Cleveland to start the rebuild, even before dealing Love and/or Kylie.
 

moly99

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You answered the question yourself. The holdup wasn't really about IT's health or when he will be ready, it was about Gilberts concern with how this trade would be perceived (from the previously cited O'Connor article from the Ringer
Except that everyone in the media thinks the Cavs did well to get as much as they did. And tanking Thomas' reputation by publicly speculating that he may be finished as an elite player certainly does not help on the PR front.

The only explanation is that Gilbert is so clueless that he actually thinks that the Cavs benefit by trashing Thomas publicly and playing hardball with the Celtics after they have already finished negotiating the deal.
 

E5 Yaz

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I actually don't think Altman looks that bad here. It's pretty obvious Gilbert was the one holding this up. It's also pretty obvious that Gilbert was the one leaking all of this info to Woj which helps explain why Woj looked like a schizo amateur reporting on this trade the last week (it didn't help that Woj seemingly has no Celtics sources)
I agree with this and especially think the bolded part bears watching now that he is back at ESPN and the Celtics are back as a top-tier team
 

kazuneko

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Cleveland would be so much better off blowing it all up at this point. Imagine the haul they could get for LBJ (even with the trade protection) and Love. That's what Danny would do - Ainge is a cold hearted killer.
If Thomas is healthy for the playoffs Cleveland is an improved team. If Cleveland trades the Nets 18' pick for an impact player (and Thomas is healthy for the playoffs) it is a much improved team with a chance to win a championship.
 

mikeot

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Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
This. This. This.
 

Sportsbstn

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Good luck dealing with teams in the future Cleveland. Basically the Cavs changed their mind and wanted more. Silver is fucked now when other teams use this slimeball tactic.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I'm so glad that Danny essentially told Gilbert to go to hell, but I can't help feeling bad for Isaiah after all of this. His stock is at rock bottom after this whole circus, and even though he's definitely injured, it seems like he got screwed by his new team before even playing a minute with them.
 

Red Averages

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I'm so glad that Danny essentially told Gilbert to go to hell, but I can't help feeling bad for Isaiah after all of this. His stock is at rock bottom after this whole circus, and even though he's definitely injured, it seems like he got screwed by his new team before even playing a minute with them.
Well said. Also the big takeaway here is the Celtics primary competition in the East is imploding. Over/Under on LeBron finals appearances the rest of his career might be 1.5. And I'd take the under. Amazing.
 

Van Everyman

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Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
I was teasing Jose earlier about his theory that this was a Lebron tantrum but at the very least, this shows how hard it is when you let a superstar dictate team operations. Lebron and Kyrie were a really good match in a lot of ways—this year's ECF showed that—and while they weren't as good as the Warriors, this was a team that was positioned to own this conference for a long time, even if the Celtics improved, simply by virtue of having 2 1/2 great players on their roster (Love being the half) and the ability to keep moving pieces around.

But LBJ's insistence that everything run thru him on and off the court has run their second best guy out of town – to their conference rival no less. I know that the consensus was that the Cavs won this trade but if you look at it that way, it's hard to see how it isn't given that it is the Celtics who are better positioned at this point.

Say what you will about Pat Riley but he never would have let this happen.
 

DJnVa

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ESPN Mike and Mike: "The trade is finalized as the Celtics send over a 2nd rounder as they needed to add assets because the Cavs believe they weren't upfront about IT's injury."

Um, no.
 

luckiestman

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ESPN Mike and Mike: "The trade is finalized as the Celtics send over a 2nd rounder as they needed to add assets because the Cavs believe they weren't upfront about IT's injury."

Um, no.

You really need to spare yourself from listening to these idiots. Just reading it second hand lowered my IQ 4 points
 

DJnVa

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You really need to spare yourself from listening to these idiots. Just reading it second hand lowered my IQ 4 points
Yeah, I know. So then I switched over the SiriusXM NBA Radio at 8 am, thinking they'd lead with it--8 am, drive time.

Mad Dog Russo--they talk about women's tennis and the NFL for 15 minutes. On NBA Radio.
 

DJnVa

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Woj has a podcast coming out this morning with Bobby Marks, who, per his twitter, seemed annoyed with the Cavs handling of this.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Now that Lowe's pretty-authoritative piece on the deal is out, and we know the compensation here is nominal, curious if the set of folks who were arguing for this being a significant disagreement on the injury or defending Cleveland's approach still feel that way. IMO, there's a bunch of far-worse-than-average takes through this thread (including from homers of other teams) that people should reflect on a bit now that this story has played itself out.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Now that Lowe's pretty-authoritative piece on the deal is out, and we know the compensation here is nominal, curious if the set of folks who were arguing for this being a significant disagreement on the injury or defending Cleveland's approach still feel that way. IMO, there's a bunch of far-worse-than-average takes through this thread (including from homers of other teams) that people should reflect on a bit now that this story has played itself out.
I feel that both sides understood the severity of the injury which is why he was moved as a throw-in to this deal and that we've seen the last of the Isaiah we've come to know and love who can maybe squeeze out another year or two of effectiveness on a smaller scale. I don't expect a soft landing to the end of his career. When he loses his first step and explosion it's over for him.......it may already be.

We're moving on to Kyrie.
 

ALiveH

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I'm probably in the extreme minority that I don't really feel sorry for the way Cleveland handled IT (and I'm grateful for everything he accomplished). He shouldn't care what his stock is today. He needs to care what his stock is at the end of the season. That's all that matters for getting paid. He will have the same opportunity he had regardless of the injury questions to try to put up a great year and win to get paid. The little guy is a pro and will use the adversity to fuel him like he always has.
 

lovegtm

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I'm probably in the extreme minority that I don't really feel sorry for the way Cleveland handled IT (and I'm grateful for everything he accomplished). He shouldn't care what his stock is today. He needs to care what his stock is at the end of the season. That's all that matters for getting paid. He will have the same opportunity he had regardless of the injury questions to try to put up a great year and win to get paid. The little guy is a pro and will use the adversity to fuel him like he always has.
It's definitely going to lower teams' willingness to give him more than a year or two, even with a good finish to the season, because of what HRB said just above.
 

Stitch01

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My view on whether the Cavs acted in good faith would hinge on 1) what exactly their medical team told them and 2) whether they were actively looking for other offers for Kyrie over the last week. Given the value of the various assets in the trade minor differences opinion on IT's availability for this year shouldn't have changed the Cavs view on the trade, but Im not sure it by itself rises to the level of acting in bad faith.

Basically if Boston said "IT is damaged goods and may miss the start of the season, but we still think this group of assets is attractive for the long-term" and the Cavs doctors came to management with reports that "IT is damaged goods and we think he can play this year, but we dont really know given the kind of injury he has"....would the Cavs getting cold feet about IT's availability this season have been acting in bad faith to rip up the deal and take a Bucks offer that offers more help now? I dont know, hard to say.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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My view on whether the Cavs acted in good faith would hinge on 1) what exactly their medical team told them and 2) whether they were actively looking for other offers for Kyrie over the last week. Given the value of the various assets in the trade minor differences opinion on IT's availability for this year shouldn't have changed the Cavs view on the trade, but Im not sure it by itself rises to the level of acting in bad faith.

Basically if Boston said "IT is damaged goods and may miss the start of the season, but we still think this group of assets is attractive for the long-term" and the Cavs doctors came to management with reports that "IT is damaged goods and we think he can play this year, but we dont really know given the kind of injury he has"....would the Cavs getting cold feet about IT's availability this season have been acting in bad faith to rip up the deal and take a Bucks offer that offers more help now? I dont know, hard to say.
I agree with this.

And PKB, are you looking for a mea culpa here? As Stitch notes, even with the Lowe piece we still have imperfect information. That account suggests that there was clearly a difference of opinion about Thomas return time/effectiveness between Boston and Cleveland.

I will agree that Cleveland appears to have handled this pretty badly. There is no denying that it's a bad look.
 

OnWisc

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The Cavs acted in bad faith. Had there been no leak and this morning just an out-of-the-blue announcement that the C's added a 2020 2nd just to close the deal after the Cav's privately expressed concerns following the physical, that would be one thing.

Instead, well in advance of the deadline the Cavs leaked both their level of concern with IT's health and the idea that they would pursue significant additional compensation. The fact they they ended up requiring almost valueless additional compensation- and in all likelihood insisted on it in the end more to save face than to actually extract any more value out of the Celtics- means that either the leaks were coming from someone who was not actually connected to the Cav's FO, or that they were completely full of shit to begin with. I'd go with the latter. They basically just tried to bluff without realizing everyone at the table could see their cards.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I agree with this.

And PKB, are you looking for a mea culpa here? As Stitch notes, even with the Lowe piece we still have imperfect information. That account suggests that there was clearly a difference of opinion about Thomas return time/effectiveness between Boston and Cleveland.

I will agree that Cleveland appears to have handled this pretty badly. There is no denying that it's a bad look.
Certainly not calling you out, you've always been thoughtful and a regular in the forum who knows the NBA well. Though, I am pretty sure Lowe did not say what you suggest, either, fwiw, he said it was possible that could be the case (pretty different).

More generally, I think if one goes back and reads the posts on the pages in the 20s or so they'll find a bunch of conclusory posts from folks whose confidence they knew what was going on or what would happen is way out of sync with what happened. Maybe unhelpful to say that and call it out like I did, but imo too many hot takes in here from posters who don't follow the league ("let's just pull IT out of the deal") and useful to remind all that what we don't know about the dynamics is so much larger than what we do know we should remain humble about what's possible.

On the specific question of the Cavs acting in a shady way, we certainly can't be positive but I think there's good reasons that has become the consensus now, both in the thread and among the media
 

BigMike

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Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
I'd take the over on that bet.

He is getting older, but in my book he is still the best player on the planet and by a pretty wide margin.
 

DavidTai

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My view on whether the Cavs acted in good faith would hinge on 1) what exactly their medical team told them and 2) whether they were actively looking for other offers for Kyrie over the last week. Given the value of the various assets in the trade minor differences opinion on IT's availability for this year shouldn't have changed the Cavs view on the trade, but Im not sure it by itself rises to the level of acting in bad faith.

Basically if Boston said "IT is damaged goods and may miss the start of the season, but we still think this group of assets is attractive for the long-term" and the Cavs doctors came to management with reports that "IT is damaged goods and we think he can play this year, but we dont really know given the kind of injury he has"....would the Cavs getting cold feet about IT's availability this season have been acting in bad faith to rip up the deal and take a Bucks offer that offers more help now? I dont know, hard to say.
The big reason that it feels like 'acting in bad faith' and not some sort of 'difference in opinion' is that Cleveland did absolutely nothing but leak crap, while other leaks indicated they didn't even -engage- Boston in discussions on how to resolve the situation for -days-.

If Cleveland had been negotiating in good faith, why is it that reports were their exams matched what Boston already reported -and- Cleveland had no response whatsoever for days? Why is it that Cleveland's 'major concerns' that would have been enough to 'resolve the whole thing' is settled by a 2020 second rounder? That's so paltry a solution and does absolutely nothing to resolve 'concerns about IT's hip'.

Was there -anything- in the whole saga that indicated that IT4's hip actually -was- worse than they thought? Because all I have seen was 'the results matched what Boston has been saying', and the only counter was 'well, Cleveland was acting in good faith if they reject it because of their hip'. Well no, Cleveland would have been acting in good faith -if- they actually had different -results- from the physical than what Boston reported. Nothing in any leaks ever indicated there were different results.
 

lovegtm

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We'll start to know more about how the deal was perceived around the league when we see how willing other teams are to do business with Cleveland going forward. That's especially relevant since the Cavs might have to blow it up as soon as this season, depending on how LBJ reacts to IT's health and the likely unwillingness of the FO to trade away the Brooklyn pick.

If everyone is fine dealing with the Cavs and facilitating trades, it doesn't prove there were no shenanigans, but it lowers the probability of that scenario somewhat. Conversely...
 

Stitch01

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The big reason that it feels like 'acting in bad faith' and not some sort of 'difference in opinion' is that Cleveland did absolutely nothing but leak crap, while other leaks indicated they didn't even -engage- Boston in discussions on how to resolve the situation for -days-.

If Cleveland had been negotiating in good faith, why is it that reports were their exams matched what Boston already reported -and- Cleveland had no response whatsoever for days? Why is it that Cleveland's 'major concerns' that would have been enough to 'resolve the whole thing' is settled by a 2020 second rounder? That's so paltry a solution and does absolutely nothing to resolve 'concerns about IT's hip'.

Was there -anything- in the whole saga that indicated that IT4's hip actually -was- worse than they thought? Because all I have seen was 'the results matched what Boston has been saying', and the only counter was 'well, Cleveland was acting in good faith if they reject it because of their hip'. Well no, Cleveland would have been acting in good faith -if- they actually had different -results- from the physical than what Boston reported. Nothing in any leaks ever indicated there were different results.
First bolded: because they're a clown show whose owner wanted a fig leaf and there was no need to hold up the trade over the negligable value of a 2nd round pick.

Second bolded: Sort of, but nothing definitive

But maybe they were acting in bad faith. I cant tell from the information we have whether it was acting in bad faith or a semi dysfunctional organization torn on which direction to take. Glad that it went through though.
 

RedOctober3829

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If Thomas is healthy for the playoffs Cleveland is an improved team. If Cleveland trades the Nets 18' pick for an impact player (and Thomas is healthy for the playoffs) it is a much improved team with a chance to win a championship.
I agree with some of your point but it is only true if Thomas is truly healthy and playing at the same level he did this past year. If IT is healthy and you add Crowder to the role players they are just as good as they were last year if not better. The only thing in my mind that could keep that from happening is if IT is not as impactful because he doesn't have the ball in his hands all the time. But, he's shown in Boston that he can play off the ball and he'll need to with LeBron dominating the ball when they are on the floor together. However, they don't have many young guys whose improvement over an 82 game season could make the team better in the postseason. They might not need that to happen because their top 6 may be good enough to get them out of the East. However, I can't see Gilbert trading the Nets pick away for a 1-year shot at a title. They made the trade with Boston so they could start a rebuild if LeBron ends up leaving. I highly doubt LeBron would tell Gilbert he'd stay until after the season anyways so there's no way they trade the pick before knowing LBJ is definitely staying.

Boston, on the other hand, can be much improved from where they left off last year. Let's start with the known quantities. We know that Hayward is a much better 2nd option than they had last year and Marcus Morris should be an improvement over whoever started next to Horford. A top 3 of Irving/Hayward/Horford is better than they had last year and Morris is going to be better than Amir Johnson. Where the jump for this team could really come is how much of a leap young players like Rozier, Smart and Brown take and how NBA ready Jayson Tatum really is. We know how much the team relied on a deep bench last year and while the starting lineup is going to be better they still need the players behind their big 3 to perform at a high level in order to have a shot at the East. I hope they add some rebounding help like Thomas Robinson as it is sorely needed.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term:

[The answer certainly matters to some members of the Cavaliers organization, namely LeBron James and head coach Ty Lue. One league source with an understanding of Cleveland’s situation told me that as news spread throughout the organization that Thomas could miss time deep into the upcoming season, James and Lue cooled on the deal. According to the same source, both the Cavs’ franchise player and their head coach were apparently told by upper management that Thomas and Crowder were being brought in to help the team compete with the Warriors, now.QUOTE]
 

mauf

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Toward the end, it became clear that the Cavs were holding out for a better offer. That strategy has backfired badly on them; other GMs will deal warily with them going forward, and they got essentially nothing to show for it (most late 2nd rounders never become better than replacement-level NBA players).
 

DavidTai

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But maybe they were acting in bad faith. I cant tell from the information we have whether it was acting in bad faith or a semi dysfunctional organization torn on which direction to take. Glad that it went through though.
I can accept the dysfunctional part, certainly. That would fit just about as well.

I just don't believe the 'Cleveland doctors thought things were worse after bringing in IT4' take because -that- one matches up with none of what we've seen out of Cleveland this whole period. Nor the 'exploring new trade options' for reasons of 'that would be grounds for the NBA to step in and punish the team for acting in bad faith'... though I suppose it could be granted that a team as dysfunctional as Cleveland seems to be -would- be stupid enough to do that.
 

DavidTai

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This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term:
That does not say anything about Cleveland having differing expectations. That only says Lue and James, who were not involved in the initial decision-making, -were- told something different by the people who -were- in a position to know.

That actually looks to lend more credence to the dysfunctional organization theory, not that the people who were making the decisions for Cleveland had differing expectations.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term:
That quote simply does not say what you have claimed it says. If anything, it supports the opposite conclusion--that the doctors and decision makers all agreed on both sides, and that as the info spread to others in the org (including Lebron) it became a thing.
 
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allstonite

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I wonder if Woj lost a lot of credibility in this. It probably won't make a difference among casual fans because WOJBOMB! is still a thing but it looks like he got taken by the Cavs. He was the only one providing updates that the Cavs were searching for something and some of those were insane (Brown or Tatum early on). I wonder if he was desperate for a huge story because he's been getting scooped by his protege Shams all summer on the big news and Gilbert took advantage of that.
 
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