Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

[BigMike]

I agree with some of your point but it is only true if Thomas is truly healthy and playing at the same level he did this past year. If IT is healthy and you add Crowder to the role players they are just as good as they were last year if not better. The only thing in my mind that could keep that from happening is if IT is not as impactful because he doesn't have the ball in his hands all the time. But, he's shown in Boston that he can play off the ball and he'll need to with LeBron dominating the ball when they are on the floor together. However, they don't have many young guys whose improvement over an 82 game season could make the team better in the postseason. They might not need that to happen because their top 6 may be good enough to get them out of the East. However, I can't see Gilbert trading the Nets pick away for a 1-year shot at a title. They made the trade with Boston so they could start a rebuild if LeBron ends up leaving. I highly doubt LeBron would tell Gilbert he'd stay until after the season anyways so there's no way they trade the pick before knowing LBJ is definitely staying.

Boston, on the other hand, can be much improved from where they left off last year. Let's start with the known quantities. We know that Hayward is a much better 2nd option than they had last year and Marcus Morris should be an improvement over whoever started next to Horford. A top 3 of Irving/Hayward/Horford is better than they had last year and Morris is going to be better than Amir Johnson. Where the jump for this team could really come is how much of a leap young players like Rozier, Smart and Brown take and how NBA ready Jayson Tatum really is. We know how much the team relied on a deep bench last year and while the starting lineup is going to be better they still need the players behind their big 3 to perform at a high level in order to have a shot at the East. I hope they add some rebounding help like Thomas Robinson as it is sorely needed.

If IT is healthy and performing close to his previously level Cleveland is pretty dramatically improved. They have added Crowder who all the stats guys call a top 25 player in the league. Even if you think that is overrated he fills a critical role player slot for them where they had nothing previously. The have also added Derek Rose, who isn't the player he was before, but can be used more sparingly there, and can be an outstanding bench player.

Boston adds Heyward, and they lose Crowder. They Add Morris and lose Johnson They also lose Avery Bradley.

Boston may and probably will be better than last year, but have they improved much more than Cleveland has.

And most importantly. Last year's conference finals wasn't even a tiny bit competitive. The Celtics won the game where Cleveland basically fell apart and blew a 21 point 3rd quarter lead. The other 4 games weren't even close.

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

 

[mauf]

Jesus, if it were a real concern, how does a second round pick in three years mitigate that?

It doesn't. Maybe Gilbert thinks he's saving face, but he'd be better off letting it go and claiming the Cavs' concerns were blown out of proportion by the media.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

It doesn't. Maybe Gilbert thinks he's saving face, but he'd be better off letting it go and claiming the Cavs' concerns were blown out of proportion by the media.

Agreed, though I think it's hard for anyone who paid any attention to this thing to believe much that comes out from them about this.

 

[mauf]

If IT is healthy and performing close to his previously level Cleveland is pretty dramatically improved. They have added Crowder who all the stats guys call a top 25 player in the league. Even if you think that is overrated he fills a critical role player slot for them where they had nothing previously. The have also added Derek Rose, who isn't the player he was before, but can be used more sparingly there, and can be an outstanding bench player.

Boston adds Heyward, and they lose Crowder. They Add Morris and lose Johnson They also lose Avery Bradley.

Boston may and probably will be better than last year, but have they improved much more than Cleveland has.

And most importantly. Last year's conference finals wasn't even a tiny bit competitive. The Celtics won the game where Cleveland basically fell apart and blew a 21 point 3rd quarter lead. The other 4 games weren't even close.

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

Crowder being a top-25 guy by advanced stats says more about the stats than it does about Crowder.

The stats said the same thing about Nene 5 years ago. Was Nene underrated by traditionalists? Absolutely. Was he anywhere near as valuable as the stats said? Of course not. The same is true of Crowder, and he's on a favorable contract to boot.

So yes, the C's parted with a valuable asset, but suggesting that swapping Hayward for Crowder isn't a massive upgrade is crazy-talk.

 

[RedOctober3829]

If IT is healthy and performing close to his previously level Cleveland is pretty dramatically improved. They have added Crowder who all the stats guys call a top 25 player in the league. Even if you think that is overrated he fills a critical role player slot for them where they had nothing previously. The have also added Derek Rose, who isn't the player he was before, but can be used more sparingly there, and can be an outstanding bench player.

Boston adds Heyward, and they lose Crowder. They Add Morris and lose Johnson They also lose Avery Bradley.

Boston may and probably will be better than last year, but have they improved much more than Cleveland has.

And most importantly. Last year's conference finals wasn't even a tiny bit competitive. The Celtics won the game where Cleveland basically fell apart and blew a 21 point 3rd quarter lead. The other 4 games weren't even close.

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

Crowder/healthy IT makes them better. I just don't think they are dramatically improved. Kyrie and a healthy IT are very, very similar offensive players and we all know IT's defense is worse. Crowder does fill a void but he's not a top 25 player in the league.

For the Celtics, the bigger losses are on the bench. Can a bench of Smart/Tatum/Rozier/Baynes be as good or better than last year's? If it is, then the Celtics are the team that is dramatically improved. I'm not sure it's enough to beat Cleveland but it's a lot closer than last year.

 

[DavidTai]

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

Depends. To be in position enough to finish second seed, they had to burn Lebron hard in the regular season. If they don't have Irving to take the pressure off him, and IT4 isn't ready for a while, will Lebron be burned out by playoff time? Have they built up enough depth that they don't -have- to ride Lebron 40+ minutes in the playoffs, which is what killed us?

Also, it feels like the real issue in Cleveland vs Boston was that they were going hard at IT4 until he fell apart, and then had trouble adjusting otherwise when a secondary scoring option showed up for Boston. This year, they have to contend with Irving -and- Hayward, and I think Hayward could be the difference. Instead of shutting down one primary scorer, they now have to deal with two.

The obvious counterpoint, I guess is they now have Crowder to deal with that, so the question is, will we see first year Crowder D out of Cleveland Crowder, or last year's Crowder?

I'd probably say playoffs Celtics would be closer than last year's, but how much, I can't be sure.

 

[lovegtm]

This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term:

The quote basically says that the front office knew the deal with IT (injury was bad), and that they mostly hid that fact from James and Lue in order to avoid a mutiny. It strongly supports the claim that the Boston and Cleveland front offices did NOT have differing expectations.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

First bolded: because they're a clown show whose owner wanted a fig leaf and there was no need to hold up the trade over the negligable value of a 2nd round pick.

I know being fair to Cleveland is frowned upon here but let's keep in mind that they were not holding up the deal for the value of a 2nd round pick.......they were trying to squeeze out a 1st round pick out of Boston for a player that even Ainge has admitted won't be ready to play NBA basketball two months from now. There is a big difference between the two.

I've never heard of the injury that is being reported knocking someone out of action for 6 months without surgery.......if this was the case why wouldn't he simply have the corrective surgery to repair the problem? Something here has never passed the smell test to me so I'm not ready to completely disparage Cleveland until Isaiah returns healthy in November/December. If he doesn't, which would be my bet if I had to wager, then the Cavaliers may not have been wrong to deem the Celtics medical opinion being incorrect.

 

[DavidTai]

I know being fair to Cleveland is frowned upon here but let's keep in mind that they were not holding up the deal for the value of a 2nd round pick.......they were trying to squeeze out a 1st round pick out of Boston for a player that even Ainge has admitted won't be ready to play NBA basketball two months from now. There is a big difference between the two.

It's not that trying to squeeze the first rounder out of it is a bad thing. It's that the information was known to them -before- the trade and should have been handled pre-trade.

By agreeing to the trade and -then- using that information to squeeze that first rounder out of Boston, they do not look at all like they were negotiating in good faith.

 

[lovegtm]

This year, they have to contend with Irving -and- Hayward, and I think Hayward could be the difference. Instead of shutting down one primary scorer, they now have to deal with two.

Even more, given where IT's hip was, they're going from having to shut down negative one primary scorers, to having to shut down two top-15 ones.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think it is probably not deliberate bad faith so much as organizational incompetence. Kevin O'Connor's piece in the Ringer today is a nice companion to Lowe's article and makes this even more clear.

In the end, I think it had less to do with a difference of opinion between the Cavs and Celtics on IT's prognosis and more to do with a difference of opinion within the Cavs organization on IT's importance to the deal.

Altman negotiated this deal with the C's to get Crowder and the Brooklyn pick. Ainge was up front about IT's injury, which he addressed by including the unprotected Brooklyn pick. Altman was fine with this - he's rebuilding for the future and a healthy IT was almost a bonus.

IT is possible that the Cavs medical staff was more pessimistic about IT than the Celtics, but to Altman - primarily after Crowder and the pick - this would have been a minor hiccup as opposed to a potential deal breaker.

Gilbert, however, chose to be a bit two faced in his discussions with LBJ and Lue. In selling them on the deal, he played up the IT part of it.

The results of ITs physical were no big deal to Altman, who mostly wanted the other assets. But Lue and LBJ were peeved as they want to compete this year. Gilbert, who sounds like a mini Trump, saw the IT injury not necessarily as a catastrophe but rather as an angle he could work, by demanding extra compensation from the Celtics while letting it be known through the grapevine that the deal might not go through and Kyrie would be back on the market.

Due to internal dissension, Altman could not get buy in on completing the deal, voiding it (which he didn't want to do anyway), or asking for reasonable compensation (e.g., a 2020 2nd).

So the situation ends up being a week long pointless delay, before they talk with the Celtics who eventually agree to let the Cavs save some face by sending a 2nd round pick.

 

[Sportsbstn]

It's not that trying to squeeze the first rounder out of it is a bad thing. It's that the information was known to them -before- the trade and should have been handled pre-trade.

By agreeing to the trade and -then- using that information to squeeze that first rounder out of Boston, they do not look at all like they were negotiating in good faith.

That's exactly it. They found nothing new, as in zero, from what the celtics told them. So they agreed to a trade then decided the deal they agreed to was not enough and wanted more. That is a very dangerous game to play and I wouldn't doubt for a second that it will cost them dearly in future negotiations as they can't be trusted.

In the end this charade really had little to do with basketball and more to do with an owner being sleazy.

 

[cheech13]

It's certainly possible, and maybe even likely, that Boston acted in good faith and gave all the information they had on IT's hip to Cleveland during the course of trade negotiations, but that Cleveland found out something additional or different during the physical. For Cleveland then to weigh options doesn't make them shady necessarily and most of the info we do have is second-hand guesswork. They probably got cold feet after examining IT and weighing the ramifications of substantial missed time, but realized they were too far down the path to rescind that trade. That's why they sought more, but given that they had no leverage, they ultimately got a 2nd rounder. I don't think it's any more complicated or sinister than that.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I'd take the over on that bet.

He is getting older, but in my book [LeBron] is still the best player on the planet and by a pretty wide margin.

To the extent that a margin still exists, I suspect it's narrowing fast. For one thing, Father Time is undefeated; LeBron turns 33 in a couple months, with unprecedented mileage for a player his age, and a game that's based at least partially on elite athleticism. He was a monster last season offensively; but his D, which has always been somewhat overrated, is already in pretty clear decline, to the point where I think it's fair to ask whether he's much better suited to being a PF most of the time than to chasing guards and wings around the perimeter.

In the finals, I think his offensive heroics may have masked what was mostly pretty atrocious work on defense. KD doesn't put up 35 points a game on .700 true shooting while barely seeming to break a sweat if he's being guarded by LeBron in his prime. Don't get too excited, but: anecdotally, I thought Gordon Hayward did a much better job manning up Durant in the Utah series than LeBron did on him in the finals.

Even on offense, I think LeBron's greatness is at least slightly context-dependent, in that you always want to surround him with elite shooters (Kyrie, Love, JR, Korver, Frye, e.g.) Put him next to ball-dominant, mediocre-to-bad shooters like Westbrook or Ball (or *cough*Derrick Rose*cough*) and his elite ball skills are somewhat diminished. He did see a big uptick in his 3fg% last season, which could be a big boon for his career going forward, but we'll see how sustainable that is. 74% career FT and 34% career 3fg% don't bespeak a naturally great shooter. Smallish detail, but among the NBA's leading scorers, he's the worst FT shooter by a pretty wide margin.

Anyway, context independent, I think Kawhi (26 and still improving) and Durant (28-29, and more reliant on length and skill than elite athleticism) are probably slightly better players next season, and I'd expect that margin to grow, incrementally.

No idea what that means as far as LeBron's chances of winning another ring, though — there are just way too many variables to weigh in on that. We know that in addition to his other elite skills that he's always had a keen eye for putting himself in great situations, so I wouldn't put it past him to end up playing a kind of "juiced-up Andre Iguodala meets David West" role on another stacked NBA champion or two. But do I think his days as "best player on the planet by a wide margin" are probably done.

As far as Cs v. Cavs next season: my general sense, when you factor in all the weird uncertainty in Cleveland surrounding LeBron's expiring contract, IT's health, Gilbert's general odiousness, etc., is that it's pretty close to a push.

 

[DavidTai]

It's certainly possible, and maybe even likely, that Boston acted in good faith and gave all the information they had on IT's hip to Cleveland during the course of trade negotiations, but that Cleveland found out something additional or different during the physical. For Cleveland then to weigh options doesn't make them shady necessarily and most of the info we do have is second-hand guesswork. They probably got cold feet after examining IT and weighing the ramifications of substantial missed time, but realized they were too far down the path to rescind that trade. That's why they sought more, but given that they had no leverage, they ultimately got a 2nd rounder. I don't think it's any more complicated or sinister than that.

People keep saying that, and I keep pointing to 'reports say Cleveland found NO NEW ADDITIONAL DATA'. That possibility went out the window when that came out.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/29/rumor-cavaliers-gained-no-new-information-in-isaiah-thomas-physical/

More notably, there was -no- leaks about having found something additional, and considering the way things had leaked like a sieve and the way Cleveland conducted itself in doing nothing to address those concerns, and the O'Connor / Lowe articles reviewing the whole saga, there is literally -nothing- that indicates that Cleveland actually -had- found new information.

Stop acting like the people who are saying otherwise have no foundation to judge Cleveland on - there's enough articles and rumors, and especially their concerns and behavior afterwards that there's actually -some- sort of basis to judge Cleveland by. There is no second-hand guesswork here. Do you -actually- have something that backs up that Cleveland has found something as opposed to reports that Cleveland found nothing new?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

...


That quote simply does not say what you have claimed it says. If anything, it supports the opposite conclusion--that the doctors and decision makers all agreed on both sides, and that as the info spread to others in the org (including Lebron) it became a thing.

The quote says that "as news spread throughout the Cavaliers organization...that Thomas could miss time deep into the upcoming season, James and Lue cooled on the deal". Perhaps I missed it but I don't recall the article laying out when that happened. If it was before Thomas had his physical in Cleveland then you and others here are correct.

However if the "news" Lowe refers to spread after last Friday, it would indeed suggest a difference of opinion about Thomas' condition between the teams respective medical staffs.

Ultimately, it doesn't really amount to much. Cleveland looks bad here regardless mostly because of how this played out publicly.

 

[DJnVa]

Woj's new podcast is up--it's apparently 100% Celtics/Cavs related.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

People keep saying that, and I keep pointing to 'reports say Cleveland found NO NEW ADDITIONAL DATA'. That possibility went out the window when that came out.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/29/rumor-cavaliers-gained-no-new-information-in-isaiah-thomas-physical/

More notably, there was -no- leaks about having found something additional, and considering the way things had leaked like a sieve and the way Cleveland conducted itself in doing nothing to address those concerns, and the O'Connor / Lowe articles reviewing the whole saga, there is literally -nothing- that indicates that Cleveland actually -had- found new information.

Stop acting like the people who are saying otherwise have no foundation to judge Cleveland on - there's enough articles and rumors, and especially their concerns and behavior afterwards that there's actually -some- sort of basis to judge Cleveland by. There is no second-hand guesswork here. Do you -actually- have something that backs up that Cleveland has found something as opposed to reports that Cleveland found nothing new?

That article you cite is not fact. In fact, in the headline it starts with the word "Rumor..."

 

[Van Everyman]

Ainge was up front about IT's injury, which he addressed by including the unprotected Brooklyn pick. Altman was fine with this - he's rebuilding for the future and a healthy IT was almost a bonus.

I'm not picking on you EJ, but this has been said several times over -- that Cleveland wasn't really trading for IT, but the pick and Crowder. But that can't really be the case, can it? Without IT, the team has No Knee Rose playing PG for the year and Kevin Love as the second offensive option. That isn't getting it done.

I get that Thomas is only signed for another year -- that Gilbert really wanted the Brooklyn pick, particularly given that Lebron may be gone after a year. I also agree that the lack of protections on the pick were likely due to the lengthy and uncertain nature of his rehab. And I know they needed to make the money work. But I feel like people here are underestimating what IT means to Cleveland's title aspirations. They want to win in 2017-18 and the only way that's going to happen is if Thomas is healthy for a good portion of the year and the playoffs.

 

[cheech13]

People keep saying that, and I keep pointing to 'reports say Cleveland found NO NEW ADDITIONAL DATA'. That possibility went out the window when that came out.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/29/rumor-cavaliers-gained-no-new-information-in-isaiah-thomas-physical/

More notably, there was -no- leaks about having found something additional, and considering the way things had leaked like a sieve and the way Cleveland conducted itself in doing nothing to address those concerns, and the O'Connor / Lowe articles reviewing the whole saga, there is literally -nothing- that indicates that Cleveland actually -had- found new information.

Stop acting like the people who are saying otherwise have no foundation to judge Cleveland on - there's enough articles and rumors, and especially their concerns and behavior afterwards that there's actually -some- sort of basis to judge Cleveland by. There is no second-hand guesswork here. Do you -actually- have something that backs up that Cleveland has found something as opposed to reports that Cleveland found nothing new?

That article you're citing as evidence is solely based on conjecture. Do I have a report that says the Cavs found something new? No, I don't and I wouldn't expect to. As messy as that front office is I don't think they are going to violate HIPAA or draw the ire of the league by openly reporting what they found during IT's physical, but everything we've seen play out would suggest they weren't as comfortable with the deal after getting a first-hand look at him.

 

[DavidTai]

However if the "news" Lowe refers to spread after last Friday, it would indeed suggest a difference of opinion about Thomas' condition between the teams respective medical staffs.

Ultimately, it doesn't really amount to much. Cleveland looks bad here regardless mostly because of how this played out publicly.

It does not suggest that either. It only says that at the least, Lue and Lebron cooled on the trade. How does that become 'difference between the teams' respective medical staffs?

That article you cite is not fact. In fact, in the headline it starts with the word "Rumor..."

It's certainly a lot more to go on than the 'supposition' that you're making. Again, I say, none of what you've described as possibly happening would explain -anything- about what Cleveland did afterwards. If Cleveland were indeed terribly concerned, how the hell does any of their concerns get addressed by a second round pick in 2020? How does it explain anything about the extremely odd steps of doing absolutely nothing to resolve this up to the last day?

 

[DavidTai]

That article you're citing as evidence is solely based on conjecture. Do I have a report that says the Cavs found something new? No, I don't and I wouldn't expect to. As messy as that front office is I don't think they are going to violate HIPAA or draw the ire of the league by openly reporting what they found during IT's physical, but everything we've seen play out would suggest they weren't as comfortable with the deal after getting a first-hand look at him.

That would, I think, be far more explained by O'Connor and Lowe's article that -Lebron- was unhappy about not getting to play with him.

I reiterate, if this were really a concern by the medical staff, a second-round pick would not assuage this sort of thing. Lebron being upset with the trade, on the other hand, would much more readily explain why Cleveland apparently did not re-engage on the matter for a long period.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I agree with some of your point but it is only true if Thomas is truly healthy and playing at the same level he did this past year. If IT is healthy and you add Crowder to the role players they are just as good as they were last year if not better.

I basically agree with your point but there's an argument to be made that even if IT is healthy, the Cavs are not a better team. I mean people seem to have forgotten what Kyrie did to the Cs in game 4 when LBJ had foul trouble for the first time in his career. There's not ten guys in the NBA (including IT) who can score even when the entire defense of the other team is geared to stop him.

Plus, the Cavs defense was a sieve last year and IT isn't making it better. I mean who are they going to play him with - I could only imagine how many points a second unit with IT, Love, Korver, and Rose are going to give up even if they had a modern day Bill Russell playing behind them.

 

[cheech13]

Everyone should read this quote from David Griffin that was posted on Amico Hoops:

“When you go through these deals, you share all the information you have, you share all the images you have. If the most recent images of Isaiah were as far back as the playoffs, a new set of images now will create the ability to compare and contrast, and see how things have improved.

“So I don’t think it’s a situation where anybody was caught off guard. It was just a case of getting perhaps more information. Obviously, Isaiah is in this league because he has heart and soul that is almost unparalleled, and I believe him when he says he’s gonna be back to 100 percent.”

This basically explains everything and it doesn't indicate anything nefarious is going on. Teams get more information, opinions change, etc.

Sure, a second round pick doesn't necessarily qualify as compensation for the change in IT's condition, but it allows both parties to save face. Cleveland can't pull out of the deal because they aren't going to beat the Nets pick and Crowder and Boston can't just bring IT back after he's been dragged through the mud for a week. Throwing in a cheap asset at the end acknowledges that both parties looked at this fairly and didn't spend the last week taunting each other.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I just think 5 for 1 is too much. Ainge should have said screw it, we'll void the trade or just let the commish decide.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

And most importantly. Last year's conference finals wasn't even a tiny bit competitive. The Celtics won the game where Cleveland basically fell apart and blew a 21 point 3rd quarter lead. The other 4 games weren't even close.

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

The biggest problem in the series was that the Cs didn't have anyone to match up with LBJ. I mean they put Crowder on him initially but the Cavs were doing 1-3 and 2-3 PnRs forcing Smart or IT (once or twice) or Bradley onto LBJ and he was killing them.

Also, IT was clearly limited and without him, the Cs didn't have anyone who could create.

So the Cs have fixed both problems. First, they now have at least two people who can guard LBJ - Hayward and Morris (Morris two years ago was the best in the league at guarding LBJ) and then there's Brown and possibly Tatum since he has a huge wingspan (3rd in the draft IIRC).

Plus, they have two people who can create their own shot - Hayward and Irving - rather than 0 for most of the series.

The Cs played really hard and had a great ball movement that led to a lot of open shots during the regular season but when the playoffs came and the defenses were tighter, they had one guy who was 5'7" who could create his own shot.

I mean just compare the starting lineups. Think Brad has a few more avenues to get the ball in the bucket?

IT / Avery / Crowder / Horford / Amir versus Irving / Brown / Hayward / Horford / Morris (or Baynes).

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I'm not picking on you EJ, but this has been said several times over -- that Cleveland wasn't really trading for IT, but the pick and Crowder. But that can't really be the case, can it? Without IT, the team has No Knee Rose playing PG for the year and Kevin Love as the second offensive option. That isn't getting it done.

Agreed, but do you really think gimpy-hipped, defensive anvil IT — trying to work his way into a new system, with crappy DRose seething behind the scenes at his lack of minutes, and demanding shots and touches when he does play — is getting it done? Have you seen the Warriors' net rating with Isaiah Thomas on the floor? Imagine Curry or Klay being able to get clean looks from 20-24 feet whenever they want them? Frightening stuff if you're the Cavs.

Knocking on wood because injuries happen, much more often than we like to admit (viz. Kawhi, Parker, KD, Hill, Nene, IT et al. last year). But against a healthy Warriors team I think the Cavs are pretty well hosed either way. If they even get that far.

Heck, I'm not even sure I'd favor the Cavs (with or without IT) in a hypothetical final v. the Spurs, Rockets or Thunder.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Everyone should read this quote from David Griffin that was posted on Amico Hoops:

“When you go through these deals, you share all the information you have, you share all the images you have. If the most recent images of Isaiah were as far back as the playoffs, a new set of images now will create the ability to compare and contrast, and see how things have improved.

“So I don’t think it’s a situation where anybody was caught off guard. It was just a case of getting perhaps more information. Obviously, Isaiah is in this league because he has heart and soul that is almost unparalleled, and I believe him when he says he’s gonna be back to 100 percent.”

This basically explains everything and it doesn't indicate anything nefarious is going on. Teams get more information, opinions change, etc.

Sure, a second round pick doesn't necessarily qualify as compensation for the change in IT's condition, but it allows both parties to save face. Cleveland can't pull out of the deal because they aren't going to beat the Nets pick and Crowder and Boston can't just bring IT back after he's been dragged through the mud for a week. Throwing in a cheap asset at the end acknowledges that both parties looked at this fairly and didn't spend the last week taunting each other.

This has been covered already, but the problem with the above is that the teams a) announced the deal immediately without any caveats, which is consistent with having a shared level of confidence in the medicals and inconsistent with a belief they needed a new scan to assess the situation and b) Cleveland leaked the info publicly once they got the new scan and (by multiple reports) did not just go back to the Celtics.

We may not ever know precisely what went on, but the combo of the above makes it hard to feel it is likely Cleveland was acting in good faith. If other facts come out...we'll just have to see.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I basically agree with your point but there's an argument to be made that even if IT is healthy, the Cs are not a better team. I mean people seem to have forgotten what Kyrie did to the Cs in game 4 when LBJ had foul trouble for the first time in his career. There's not ten guys in the NBA (including IT) who can score even when the entire defense of the other team is geared to stop him.

Plus, the Cavs defense was a sieve last year and IT isn't making it better. I mean who are they going to play him with - I could only imagine how many points a second unit with IT, Love, Korver, and Rose are going to give up even if they had a modern day Bill Russell playing behind them.

Do you mean that if IT is healthy that the Celtics are a better team? You say they aren't better but the rest of your post seems to say they are.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Do you mean that if IT is healthy that the Celtics are a better team? You say they aren't better but the rest of your post seems to say they are.

Sorry for typo. Multi-tasking.

Argument is that IT even if healthy does not make Cavs a better team that they were last year. Cs have clearly upgraded from last year.

Assuming good health on both sides, I think the finals series will be surprisingly competitive as the Celtics have addressed a lot of their issues.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Sorry for typo. Multi-tasking.

Argument is that IT even if healthy does not make Cavs a better team that they were last year. Cs have clearly upgraded from last year.

Assuming good health on both sides, I think the finals series will be surprisingly competitive as the Celtics have addressed a lot of their issues.

I'm in full agreement of most of what you're saying. I think most can agree that the Celtics have closed the gap quite a bit with the Cavs.

 

[snowmanny]

And most importantly. Last year's conference finals wasn't even a tiny bit competitive. The Celtics won the game where Cleveland basically fell apart and blew a 21 point 3rd quarter lead. The other 4 games weren't even close.

So lets say the Celtics have improved more than Cleveland this year, has it been enough to close the gap in 2 teams that were badly mismatched in the spring

It doesn't necessarily work like this though, especially when one team has stars who might be on the downside and the other team has younger players who are getting better. I believe the Celtics will get better than the Cavs at some point, and it could be soon.

The 1983 Celtics were bounced from the ECSF 4-0 while the Sixers went 65-17 then 12-1. All the Celtics did, really, was replace Tiny with DJ (and change from a famous at the time for being great coach to a famous at the time for being not so great coach) and they won the title.

 

[TheoShmeo]

This has been covered already, but the problem with the above is that the teams a) announced the deal immediately without any caveats, which is consistent with having a shared level of confidence in the medicals and inconsistent with a belief they needed a new scan to assess the situation and b) Cleveland leaked the info publicly once they got the new scan and (by multiple reports) did not just go back to the Celtics.

We may not ever know precisely what went on, but the combo of the above makes it hard to feel it is likely Cleveland was acting in good faith. If other facts come out...we'll just have to see.

I agree that we don't have enough actual knowledge to state with certainty whether Cleveland acted nefariously or there was just an honest disagreement or misunderstanding. Or even something in between.

But we do know that in leaking that there were concerns about the trade, letting it stew for a week or so, and then only getting a 2020 second rounder, Cleveland has opened itself up to looking ridiculous and like they were trying simply to leverage the Cs.

This fits the narrative around Gilbert being a buffoon and I suspect that all roads lead back to that, in one way or the other.

That the Cs got Kyrie Irving, while keeping Tatum, Brown and the Lakers pick, remains by far the best aspect of this whole saga. But that Cleveland got tarnished somewhat, and of course in varying degrees depending on your perspective, is a nice cherry on the sundae.

I really cannot wait to see Irving and Hayward together.

 

[DavidTai]

I really cannot wait to see Irving and Hayward together.

I think I'm much more excited about watching the young players getting to carve roles behind those two.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/31/celtics-attempting-gambit-not-accomplished-in-decades/

From that:

The Celtics had an average age – using players’ ages Feb. 1 and weighted by playing time, the same method used in this post’s first sentence – of 25.9 in the 2017 postseason. Just three teams had an average age below 26 during a postseason in which they won a playoff series then got even younger while still winning a playoff series the following year.

IT4 and Crowder were pretty much what caused the excitement of the Celtics, but you know, I think tracking -these- Celtics is going to be like watching Betts/Bogaerts/Benitendi/Devers grow up before our eyes. I -like- watching young players develop into champions as much as I like watching underdog-players.

Horford is gonna be like the Big Papi of this group.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think I'm much more excited about watching the young players getting to carve roles behind those two.

Don't get to excited as I'm sure Ainge is preparing for his Tatum, Jaylen, Lakers/Kings #1, and Clippers #1 for The Brow sometime in the next 12 months. I have always felt strongly that this is why BJ Armstrong did not want Josh Jackson working out for the Celtics to be traded during his rookie deal and risk being labeled a journeyman while he's still finding his way in the league.

Aside from anticipating the impending Grizzlies collapse (I don't think Ainge messes with this pick and its upside) and the Lakers opponents dropping 120 a night on them.......the most important non-Celtics team to keep a close look on this year are the Pelicans.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Don't get to excited as I'm sure Ainge is preparing for his Tatum, Jaylen, Lakers/Kings #1, and Clippers #1 for The Brow sometime in the next 12 months. I have always felt strongly that this is why BJ Armstrong did not want Josh Jackson working out for the Celtics to be traded during his rookie deal and risk being labeled a journeyman while he's still finding his way in the league.

Aside from anticipating the impending Grizzlies collapse (I don't think Ainge messes with this pick and its upside) and the Lakers opponents dropping 120 a night on them.......the most important non-Celtics team to keep a close look on this year are the Pelicans.

This Anthony Davis stuff seems so overblown to me. He's signed for 4 more years at an absolute bargain and is only 24 years-old. I see no reason whatsoever for New Orleans to even consider this for at least 3 more years. Even if this season gets Cousin'd, why wouldn't they just get rid of Cousins and keep trying to rebuild around their top 5 guy?

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

BTW, can we please take a minute and appreciate DA for what he has done this offseason? If he didn't trade Fultz, he probably wouldn't have made the deal for Irving (since he wouldn't have had the Lakers pick as a backstop plus Fultz and Irving are kind of redundant) so the Cs roster probably would have been:

Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Markelle Fultz
Jae Crowder
Isaiah Thomas
Morris
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Room Exception
Terry Rozier
(filler)
plus BRK 2018 pick.

I have that lineup at roughly $98.3MM so we would have issues trying to deal with Yabu and Zizac coming over and signing Ojeleye and Nader.

Instead, we have:

Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Irving
Tatum
Morris
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Room Exception - Baynes
Terry Rozier
Yabu
(filler)
plus LAL 2018 / SAC 2019 pick

I'd rather have the second roster and I think most of us would as well.

 

[cheech13]

We are two years from an Anthony David trade being a conversation and three years from it even being a possibility. Who knows what the Pelicans or any other team will look like by then, or what the cap situation will be, or how the Super Max comes into play. It's wasted breath to discuss him as potential trade target.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This Anthony Davis stuff seems so overblown to me. He's signed for 4 more years at an absolute bargain and is only 24 years-old. I see no reason whatsoever for New Orleans to even consider this for at least 3 more years. Even if this season gets Cousin'd, why wouldn't they just get rid of Cousins and keep trying to rebuild around their top 5 guy?

Because Cousins would never fetch 4 high lottery picks in return and another dysfunctional year may persuade Davis to ask to be moved. This is how we ended up able to trade for Kyrie as nobody dreamed he'd be available with 2 more cost controlled years on his deal.

 

[lovegtm]

This Anthony Davis stuff seems so overblown to me. He's signed for 4 more years at an absolute bargain and is only 24 years-old. I see no reason whatsoever for New Orleans to even consider this for at least 3 more years. Even if this season gets Cousin'd, why wouldn't they just get rid of Cousins and keep trying to rebuild around their top 5 guy?

What are they going to rebuild with? If they tank, their top 5 guy requests a trade and threatens to sit out ala Kyrie. If they don't tank, they're completely hamstrung with no path forward.

DMC with one year left on his deal isn't getting anything close to a Nets pick type haul, and even that wouldn't help a ton for keeping Davis.

I don't think AD will request a trade this year, but I could easily see it happening with 3 years left on his contract. He'll have banked a lot of money by then, and there's almost no history of NBA stars *not* getting traded once they put in the request. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Kobe. The reason is pretty obvious: if a dude has a lot of money, most of the team's leverage for getting him to keep "being a professional" and suiting up goes away. That's exactly what the Cavs were facing with Kyrie.

 

[the moops]

The Clippers pick is top 14 protected, so that will never be a high lottery pick

 

[lovegtm]

We are two years from an Anthony David trade being a conversation and three years from it even being a possibility. Who knows what the Pelicans or any other team will look like by then, or what the cap situation will be, or how the Super Max comes into play. It's wasted breath to discuss him as potential trade target.

I think this situation is unique, because the Pelicans are such a unique combination of dysfunction, small market, capped-out, and no assets. They fucked up the AD situation almost beyond belief, to the point where I think it's hard to find good prior comps.

 

[sox311]

So the leaks were from Cleveland, Gilbert, to Woj presumably, right?

The main thing I have gathered, and I hope others do as well, that Woj is a reporter with a lot of high level sources and nothing more. I hope this is the peak of his powers and popularity.

Durant and all other NBA athletes for reasons that are at their own cost respect him and know he breaks news and knows it all, as he said on Simmons podcast this past week, but I hope that the damage that this has done to Isaiah and credibility of this style of reporting will take some shine off Woj and his ilk.

Created by the 24 hour news cycle and the race to be the first to report something. It is sickening. I'm mad as hell and not gonna take it any any more!

(but it's not going to change anything...)

 

[DavidTai]

BTW, can we please take a minute and appreciate DA for what he has done this offseason? If he didn't trade Fultz, he probably wouldn't have made the deal for Irving (since he wouldn't have had the Lakers pick as a backstop plus Fultz and Irving are kind of redundant) so the Cs roster probably would have been:

Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Markelle Fultz
Jae Crowder
Isaiah Thomas
Morris
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Room Exception
Terry Rozier
(filler)
plus BRK 2018 pick.

I have that lineup at roughly $98.3MM so we would have issues trying to deal with Yabu and Zizac coming over and signing Ojeleye and Nader.

I seem to recall that if we took Fultz, we'd have to make more room for signing Hayward as opposed to trading down and taking Tatum at a smaller cap number. Was trading Bradley for Morris earlier than when we traded him going to make enough room to sign Hayward as well, assuming all the moves subsequent were the same?

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

BTW, can we please take a minute and appreciate DA for what he has done this offseason? If he didn't trade Fultz, he probably wouldn't have made the deal for Irving (since he wouldn't have had the Lakers pick as a backstop plus Fultz and Irving are kind of redundant) so the Cs roster probably would have been:

Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Markelle Fultz
Jae Crowder
Isaiah Thomas
Morris
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Room Exception
Terry Rozier
(filler)
plus BRK 2018 pick.

I have that lineup at roughly $98.3MM so we would have issues trying to deal with Yabu and Zizac coming over and signing Ojeleye and Nader.

Instead, we have:

Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Irving
Tatum
Morris
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Room Exception - Baynes
Terry Rozier
Yabu
(filler)
plus LAL 2018 / SAC 2019 pick

I'd rather have the second roster and I think most of us would as well.

And Theis! Everyone sleeping on Theis.

 

[cheech13]

So the leaks were from Cleveland, Gilbert, to Woj presumably, right?

The main thing I have gathered, and I hope others do as well, that Woj is a reporter with a lot of high level sources and nothing more. I hope this is the peak of his powers and popularity.

Durant and all other NBA athletes for reasons that are at their own cost respect him and know he breaks news and knows it all, as he said on Simmons podcast this past week, but I hope that the damage that this has done to Isaiah and credibility of this style of reporting will take some shine off Woj and his ilk.

Created by the 24 hour news cycle and the race to be the first to report something. It is sickening. I'm mad as hell and not gonna take it any any more!

(but it's not going to change anything...)

This is far from the worst we've seen from Woj. Let's not forget all the times he held water for Kobe, needlessly needled or slammed Lebron, or heaped praise on a terrible GM like Joe Dumars because he wanted to keep sources happy. He's the best in the world at breaking news, but that comes at a cost, and his reporting will always be somewhat colored by the sources that feed him information.

 

[DJnVa]

I just think 5 for 1 is too much. Ainge should have said screw it, we'll void the trade or just let the commish decide.

All 5 of those pieces aren't valued the same.

 

[BigSoxFan]

What are they going to rebuild with? If they tank, their top 5 guy requests a trade and threatens to sit out ala Kyrie. If they don't tank, they're completely hamstrung with no path forward.

DMC with one year left on his deal isn't getting anything close to a Nets pick type haul, and even that wouldn't help a ton for keeping Davis.

I don't think AD will request a trade this year, but I could easily see it happening with 3 years left on his contract. He'll have banked a lot of money by then, and there's almost no history of NBA stars *not* getting traded once they put in the request. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Kobe. The reason is pretty obvious: if a dude has a lot of money, most of the team's leverage for getting him to keep "being a professional" and suiting up goes away. That's exactly what the Cavs were facing with Kyrie.

Anthony Davis is not sitting out any games. I don't care how much money he's made - he's going to get paid. If anything, this may be similar to the KG situation where New Orleans, like Minnesota, just couldn't put a competent group around him. And KG was dealt in the last year of his deal, at a much later age, and still got a pretty good return in a top 5 pick, a young player with upside in Jefferson, and some lesser pieces. The LeBron factor distorts things so much that I don't see a huge similarity to Kyrie and Davis.

I think Ainge would part with any pick he has plus more for 1 year of Anthony Davis. It may not be the Nets pick type haul but that was an atypical trade to begin with. Ultimately, I could see Davis getting frustrated and wanting out but I still think we're 3 years away from it being even a remote possibility.

 

[TheRooster]

The same Theis who may be the 8th or 9th man as of today...

 

[Spelunker]

I think I'm missing why people are pissed at Woj. He reported that the Cavs were trying to get significant compensation, in the form of Tatum/Brown. That part seems to be factually true.

I don't remember him saying that they *should* get it, or that it would actually happen (but I certainly may have missed that). All his reporting did was bring to light more forcefully how dysfunctional Cleveland is.