Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash

djbayko

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I know it’s in OC ( I’m in OC) and the weather was cloudy/ foggy all day. A Google search says the closest airport to the crash site is Van Nuys Airport and they reported the weather was at IFR during the time of the accident. Camarillo Airport to the north reported MVFR so it’s safe to say the weather at the time of the accident was MVFR at best.


Not challenging your knowledge. Just adding color for the thread.
 

singaporesoxfan

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I told Mrs. DDB earlier tonight that I thought it would take a day or two for the first writer to dip his or her toe in the water and discuss the rape, and then the gates would open a little. After reading that cesspool of comments following the ERW tweet I am less confident.
The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.

I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice

 

Gunfighter 09

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Blame me - I just relayed what he relayed - he didn’t post it. I did bc I thought it was an interesting take. The guys a big Laker fan and believes this didn’t need to happen. Incidentally, he landed in the same fog right after the accident and said it was very intense.

Thank you for your service
He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.

But the important part is that we don’t know. Yet. Helicopter piloting is a young and brave man’s game, which is why I don’t do it anymore. But my passions in this case and anger towards speculation comes as an aviator, not a veteran. We just don’t know. But the NTSB people will let us know exactly what happened. The engineers and safety investigators at NTSB & Sikorsky are really great we’ll know, but often the critical details show themselves weeks out from the accident. I can provide examples if people think it is helpful.

I don’t believe, as an FAA part 91 operator, that Kobe was required to have a voice recorder (black box) and flight data recorder on his aircraft. I wonder if he did, because someone of his means would typically pay for top of the line avionics and would have received some insurance benefits by having thosE pieces of equipment. If he did, the answers will come quicker. Of note, eye witness statements about aircraft mishaps are Almost always worthless. The mind does funny things with traumatic incidents like an aircraft mishap.
 

Marciano490

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Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.
My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.

Yes, that was his lawyer and not him, and I’m not suggesting he should’ve thrown himself in jail, but his advocate’s conduct reflects on him and goes beyond that one night.
 

riboflav

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Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.
It's a start but yeah it's got a lot of problems. One takes away that Bryant was still ok. He had done enough, maybe, or we can simply judge for ourselves. Ugh. It'll take someone bold to put Bryant's life and legacy in the proper perspective.
 

Zedia

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I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice
The story has been updated recently, maybe they added this (6th paragraph of a pretty long piece):

He won an Oscar in 2018 for an animated short film on his life, and was a largely beloved figure, though sexual assault charges in 2003 cast a shadow over his image. Mr. Bryant publicly admitted to having consensual extramarital sex with his 19-year-old accuser, but insisted he had not committed a crime. The charges were ultimately dropped as the woman declined to testify, and she and Mr. Bryant reached a civil settlement, allowing him to resume his storied career.
 

barbed wire Bob

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He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.

But the important part is that we don’t know. Yet. Helicopter piloting is a young and brave man’s game, which is why I don’t do it anymore. But my passions in this case and anger towards speculation comes as an aviator, not a veteran. We just don’t know. But the NTSB people will let us know exactly what happened. The engineers and safety investigators at NTSB & Sikorsky are really great we’ll know, but often the critical details show themselves weeks out from the accident. I can provide examples if people think it is helpful.

I don’t believe, as an FAA part 91 operator, that Kobe was required to have a voice recorder (black box) and flight data recorder on his aircraft. I wonder if he did, because someone of his means would typically pay for top of the line avionics and would have received some insurance benefits by having thosE pieces of equipment. If he did, the answers will come quicker. Of note, eye witness statements about aircraft mishaps are Almost always worthless. The mind does funny things with traumatic incidents like an aircraft mishap.
Fwiw, the helicopter was owned by a charter named Island Express Holding company so, would it be a part 135 operator and are they required to carry black boxes?

Fake edit: I found this which seems to indicate it had a flight recorder.
91.609(c)(1) No person may operate a U.S. civil registered, multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seats of 10 or more that has been manufactured after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped with one or more approved flight recorders that utilize a digital method of recording and storing data and a method of readily retrieving that data from the storage medium, that are capable of recording the data specified in appendix E to this part, for an airplane, or appendix F to this part, for a rotorcraft, of this part within the range, accuracy, and recording interval specified, and that are capable of retaining no less than 8 hours of aircraft operation.
91.609(e) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, after October 11, 1991, no person may operate a U.S. civil registered multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration of six passengers or more and for which two pilots are required by type certification or operating rule unless it is equipped with an approved cockpit voice recorder that: (1) Is installed in compliance with § 23.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); § 25.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); § 27.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); or § 29.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g) of this chapter, as applicable; and (2) Is operated continuously from the use of the checklist before the flight to completion of the final checklist at the end of the flight
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's a start but yeah it's got a lot of problems. One takes away that Bryant was still ok. He had done enough, maybe, or we can simply judge for ourselves. Ugh. It'll take someone bold to put Bryant's life and legacy in the proper perspective.
Yeah. That was the problem to me. Not even asking the right question, or acting like there was even a question to be asked. But at least writing about it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.

Yes, that was his lawyer and not him, and I’m not suggesting he should’ve thrown himself in jail, but his advocate’s conduct reflects on him and goes beyond that one night.
Right. And even if it was just one night?

This is the way the stories are going to go at first, I think. Men writing the can we forgive him pieces.

But eventually we will get to the meat of it.
 

Preacher

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My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.

Yes, that was his lawyer and not him, and I’m not suggesting he should’ve thrown himself in jail, but his advocate’s conduct reflects on him and goes beyond that one night.
The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.
 

Marciano490

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The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.
That’s fair. But, when coupled with the repeated, intentional disclosure of her name it feels less like zealous representation within the bounds of the FRE and more like an attempt to have the victim’s sexual history be on trial.
 

E5 Yaz

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espn: A source told ESPN's Ohm Youngmisuk that the Lakers found out about Bryant's death while on the team plane flying home from Philadelphia.
Hearing about an aircraft tragedy while on an aircraft has got to be a spooky feeling
 

j-man

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Remember when fegler and mazz talked about roy hilladay when will they say something 2 05 est oh they hate the nba
 

Sprowl

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Here I signal my virtue.View attachment 28227
I laughed (but I'm a bad person). :unsure:

The aircraft was a Sikorsky S76B. It’s a multirole helicopter that can configured to carry up to 14 passengers and two pilots although a typical configuration for this type is six passengers + two pilots. I don’t know how this one was set up but I don’t think the number of passengers has anything to do with the crash.

He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.

But the important part is that we don’t know. Yet. Helicopter piloting is a young and brave man’s game, which is why I don’t do it anymore. But my passions in this case and anger towards speculation comes as an aviator, not a veteran. We just don’t know. But the NTSB people will let us know exactly what happened. The engineers and safety investigators at NTSB & Sikorsky are really great we’ll know, but often the critical details show themselves weeks out from the accident. I can provide examples if people think it is helpful.

I don’t believe, as an FAA part 91 operator, that Kobe was required to have a voice recorder (black box) and flight data recorder on his aircraft. I wonder if he did, because someone of his means would typically pay for top of the line avionics and would have received some insurance benefits by having thosE pieces of equipment. If he did, the answers will come quicker. Of note, eye witness statements about aircraft mishaps are Almost always worthless. The mind does funny things with traumatic incidents like an aircraft mishap.
There's nothing like a little technical knowledge to dampen the melodrama. I mean that as a serious compliment. Should we assume that Kobe was the second pilot in the typical configuration?

Hearing about an aircraft tragedy while on an aircraft has got to be a spooky feeling
They don't usually include Die Hard 2 among your in-flight viewing options.
 

Preacher

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That’s fair. But, when coupled with the repeated, intentional disclosure of her name it feels less like zealous representation within the bounds of the FRE and more like an attempt to have the victim’s sexual history be on trial.
Yeah, I’m not sure about that because we always have the victim’s name on the charge sheet (even if it’s a minor). Plus, at some point, the victim will have to testify on the merits in open court which will include providing his or her identity for the record so I’m not used to being in a case where the victim’s identity is hidden like that. But sure, if he’s using her name in violation of the court’s order (assuming one was in place), that’s bullshit and if not I’m violation of an order, repeated use of the name serves only one purpose and that’s also bullshit. But it’s also something that may have been done without Kobe’s approval or even prior consultation. Strategic decisions during the case are up to the attorney (outside of the pleading and whether or not the defendant testifies).
 

Marciano490

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The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.
Actually, a question - 412(b)(1) discusses criminal cases. Assuming Colorado law tracks the FRE, is a pretrial hearing a ‘case’ such that evidence of the victim’s prior sexual history could come in already?
 

Preacher

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Actually, a question - 412(b)(1) discusses criminal cases. Assuming Colorado law tracks the FRE, is a pretrial hearing a ‘case’ such that evidence of the victim’s prior sexual history could come in already?
In my experience, you have to give notice if you want to introduce 412 evidence so you’d have a pretrial motion which would be closed. The victim may have to testify (we also allow the victim’s attorney to both file motions and be heard for a 412 hearing). Once it’s deemed admissible by the judge, it’s fair game in trial. So, if you’re doing a pretrial hearing because the prosecution wants to pre-admit the SANE, the 412 stuff probably comes up. Admittedly, I’m not completely clear on the state of the procedures at the time the charges were dropped so I’m not sure what hearings were occurring/had occurred.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Fwiw, the helicopter was owned by a charter named Island Express Holding company so, would it be a part 135 operator and are they required to carry black boxes?

Fake edit: I found this which seems to indicate it had a flight recorder.



I Should have known that Kobe was smart enough to rent rather than own (Flies, floats...... corollary) I read multiple report that described it as his aircraft. The way I read the parts you listed is that a Flight data recorder but not necessarily a voice recorder would be required. Once again, the missing element is what the insurance company wants and is willing to incentivize via premium cost.

Of note, seeing how Kobe was apparently a fractional owner or client for a charter company rather than the aircraft owner , Vanessa and his estate are almost certainly not liable after this mishap.

*Answering Sprowl’s question, Sikorsky aircraft are almost always dual piloted by design, but I know of several MEDEVAC companies that operate single piloted S-76 & 92 aircraft that were modified to allow single pilot operations. I would not be surprised that a charter aircraft could also be modified for single pilot operations. I doubt Kobe was the listed SIC, or that one was required, but I could be wrong.
 
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brs3

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I am not a basketball fan, and couldn't actually tell you what position Kobe played, or which year he retired. I'm aware he was one of the greatest ever.

Seeing the emotional response made me think of Michael Jackson. When Michael Jackson died, I was bummed out. Not in any over the top way, but in a way that he made some of the best pop music I had ever heard and him dying meant that was the end of anything new, though he was kinda done anyway. I also know he touched little kids. So, I listened(and continue to listen) to his music and kind of hoped whatever misery he brought upon kids would be relieved a bit now knowing he's dead. I didn't post anything online or tell the world I was sad he died and that I was celebrating his catalog quietly. Mainly because he's a complicated weird kid toucher and shouldn't be praised IMO. There were enough people gushing over him that perhaps by not adding on to it, someone who suffered from child abuse would have one less reminder that power, fame, success, and being awesome at something gives a pass to do something horrific to another person.

Hating on Kobe Bryant minutes after he died isn't about his legacy, because it will be drowned out by the pro-Kobe love, as we're seeing in the thread and in the media at this very moment. Hating on Kobe is necessary for women who have been silenced and will continue to be silenced by people with power, fame, success, and because they're awesome at something.

It can't wait a day. It doesn't have to wait a minute(every 2 minutes a woman is assaulted), or an hour. I have zero feelings about Kobe Bryant, and vaguely followed both his career and his rape. I am sorry for his children and wife and the families of the others that died. I also think Kobe Bryant's death is a reminder that as a culture we're behind. Minimize one woman and you're minimizing all women. It's not complicated. Celebrate Kobe's career on YouTube, just put headphones on because some people don't want to hear about it. I also should heed that advice and stay out of this thread, but it's a discussion and pretty one sided IMO.

I expect a snowflake/everybody gets offended response, and that's fine. This is another wake up call that calling out bad behavior isn't going away. You cannot stop the wave of recognizing oppressive actions that irreparably harm people, in life or in death, new or old. The slow slog to equal recognition of good and bad will continue.
 

cannonball 1729

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This is why you never do things like this the day someone dies. They are going to feel really dumb by tomorrow.
This has nothing to do with anything, but....this exact situation happened to the Reds once. In 1940, they retired Willard Hershberger's #5 after he committed suicide in the middle of the season. A couple of years later, they decided that Hershberger's suicide wasn't something that they really wanted to commemorate...so they quietly unretired it in 1942 and started letting people wear #5 again. (They later retired it for good in 1984 after Johnny Bench went to the Hall of Fame.)

So the moral of the story is....you're right.

(Apologies for the thread hijack.)
 

reggiecleveland

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Shouid probably bet on Lakers to win title now. The irony that Kobe's memory will draw a team together is nor lost on me, but it will.

Also the league will really want it to happen.
 

InstaFace

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I could care less about Kobe being gone, but his death has hit me pretty hard and I understand why people are reacting the way they are.

Also, this thread is a shitshow and SoSH should be better.
Some folks think this thread has been a shit show. I think it's been one of the best threads I've seen in ages. A lot's happened. A lot's been said. Disagreements, shit posting, multiple apologies and retractions. And...I hope we haven't pushed any non males away. This is maybe one of the few places where we can discuss the non sporting side of Kobe alongside his sporting achievements, legacy, what he meant as a sportsman. It's been messy - life is messy...but most of us here - we're doing okay - i think so anyway.

I think the mods and dopes have done a fine job in this thread - they got in early (time wise) on a fast moving spiralling thread.
I agree, Fletch, I think for a community of diverse backgrounds and viewpoints and a fast-moving and emotional issue, we've acquitted ourselves well overall. The mods have enforced a certain amount of civility, those for whom his sexual assault dominates their feelings about him have spoken up and continue to feel able to speak up, and even some of those who are Kobe fans first have done some decent listening (Crow comes to mind). There are obviously exceptions in each category, but this sort of colliding of viewpoints is how learning happens. If it makes some people uncomfortable, that means it's going well.
 

santadevil

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Upon learning about John Alotbelli's passing in this thread, coaching at a JUCO, I was thinking about the upcoming season for this team and his players

They open Tuesday against Southwestern. Players want to play

I can't image how tough that is going to be on those players and that program
There are a lot of us that played sports in college and from my experience, the passing of a coach would have been very tough
His wife and 13 year old daughter were with him in the helicopter. His other daughter is a junior in high school and older brother J.J. is a scout for the Red Sox

Sad day for anyone connected to this, family, friends, players, former players
 

jon abbey

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Nick Krygios wearing a #8 Kobe jersey while warming up for his big Nadal match now, not clear yet if he will keep it on for the match or if he will be allowed if he does want to.

Edit: Nope, jersey off, ah well.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
There has been a whole lot of awful in this thread. This may be the most awful. So sorry to hear this. I hope the asshole who did that suffers appropriately.
 

Devizier

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Thanks all. It was quite the teaching moment to explain to my basketball obsessed 13 year old son why I wasn’t exactly weeping over Kobe’s death, in light of what happened to his sister. Didn’t really enjoy that teaching moment but had to counter all of the over-the-top praise he was watching all day.
That’s good parenting, hard as it may be. I hope your son recognizes that.
 

luckysox

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The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.

I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice

This is a phenomenal piece. Thank you for sharing it in this thread.
 

JimD

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Having read the details of his case and the legal aftermath some time ago, I could never unsee those and look at Kobe the same way again. I don't care if he knew what his lawyer was doing or not, the bottom line is that he allowed his fame and fortune to be used to defame and ruin his accuser and subject her to ridicule and worse. We Americans love our redemption stories though, so it wasn't enough that Kobe was allowed to continue to play basketball and resume his lucrative Nike sponsorship, he also was protected in the loving embrace of the celebrity-industrial complex so that he could do things like go on the Ellen DeGeneres show and be fawned over by the host and lovingly cheered by her (mostly female) audience. I felt sad yesterday, mostly for the loss of his daughter and his wife and surviving children and the utter heartbreak they are now enduring, and for the other victims of the crash and their families. I also felt bad for Kobe because 41 is way too young to die, but that was about it.
 

AlNipper49

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I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
Mooch, that is unspeakably awful. I’m really sorry to hear that.
 

mostman

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I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
As a father myself, this is impossibly hard to hear and my heart breaks for your daughter and your family. Thank you for sharing here and providing your perspective. I imagine it may not feel this way, but it makes a difference. Hopefully this place and the community here can provide you some solace, however brief.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Yeah, I’m not sure about that because we always have the victim’s name on the charge sheet (even if it’s a minor). Plus, at some point, the victim will have to testify on the merits in open court which will include providing his or her identity for the record so I’m not used to being in a case where the victim’s identity is hidden like that. But sure, if he’s using her name in violation of the court’s order (assuming one was in place), that’s bullshit and if not I’m violation of an order, repeated use of the name serves only one purpose and that’s also bullshit. But it’s also something that may have been done without Kobe’s approval or even prior consultation. Strategic decisions during the case are up to the attorney (outside of the pleading and whether or not the defendant testifies).
There was an article posted earlier in the tread about the legacy of Kobe's rape trial, and the money quote is below:

"One positive, if there is such a thing, to come out of the Bryant case was the improved rape shield laws in Colorado. Rape shield laws are supposed to protect the victim’s identity in cases and limit the ability for her past sexual activity to be brought into evidence. According to Karen Steinhauser, a Family Law and Criminal Defense attorney in Colorado, at the time of the Bryant hearing, rape shield laws didn’t apply to preliminary hearings in the state, which is why Mackey could push the envelope so far. Now they do. "

Basically, what we think of "rape shield" laws was very different in 2003-2004. It's been a long, long time since I did any sort of criminal work, so just thought I'd throw this out there. Here is the link: https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/
 

BaseballJones

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I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
I've hesitated to jump into this conversation because...This is me. ^^^ My daughter was raped in college last spring. It's been impossibly hard to deal with. She doesn't know this part of Kobe's past, so she texted me yesterday with: Kobe :-(

As a dad I just don't know how to bring this up to her, or if I should. I totally feel for you and your daughter, Mooch.

I have wrestled with the questions of redemption - history is littered with people who have done awful things, but who have changed as people. It doesn't undo what they did, and many people have left a wake of destruction behind. Kobe included. People can change though, and it seemed like Kobe was a different person than when he committed his horrible crime against that girl (who was the exact same age as my daughter was when it happened to her). I don't typically view people as all good (such a great guy!) or all bad (what an abominable human being!), but rather a complicated mix of good and bad. I know generally good people who have done some awful things. I know generally bad people who have done some amazing things.

That said, the kid that did this to my daughter would be best advised to not show up around me.

I've spent many months trying to work through all this as a father. Kobe's death has just resurfaced all this for me in a very big and painful way.

I'm not sure I should have shared all that. But, well...I just did.
 

TallerThanPedroia

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The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.

I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice

One paragraph in the second half of the NYTimes obit (paragraph 17) that makes it sound like a minor thing that happened once:

He was charged with felony sexual assault in 2003 stemming from an incident at a Colorado hotel in which Bryant was accused of raping a 19-year-old woman who worked at the property as a front-desk clerk. Prosecutors eventually dropped the case when the woman told them she was unwilling to testify. Bryant later issued an apology, saying he understood that the woman, unlike himself, did not view their encounter as consensual. A lawsuit the woman brought against Bryant was later settled out of court.
No discussion of the facts of the "incident" or the context for why she was unwilling to testify.

Meanwhile, a female Washington Post reporter who merely tweeted the Think Progress article that many people here linked to an article about the rape and aftermath, immediately received over 10,000 death threats and the response from her employer was to put her on administrative leave, saying "the tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues." This is what we talk about when we talk about rape culture.
 
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128

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May 4, 2019
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One paragraph in the second half of the NYTimes obit (paragraph 17) that makes it sound like a minor thing that happened once:



No discussion of the facts of the "incident" or the context for why she was unwilling to testify.

Meanwhile, a female Washington Post reporter who merely tweeted the Think Progress article that many people here linked to, immediately received over 10,000 death threats and the response from her employer was to put her on administrative leave, saying "the tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues." This is what we talk about when we talk about rape culture.
I think I read that the bigger issue with the Post reporter was that she posted a screenshot that showed her inbox and the names of those who allegedly were threatening her by email.
 

SeoulSoxFan

Dope
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
19,731
Appreciate you @Mooch and @BaseballJones for sharing the stories. I cannot fathom what it must be like to go through something like that.

The personal stories like yours, TSC, and LuckSox have made me look back on my own posts & thank you for the opportunity to do so.
 

ehaz

Member
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Sep 30, 2007
2,536
Fantastic. Kudos to USA Today, not exactly the outlet I expected to be the first to really go here.

"As devastating as the news of Bryant’s death was for his fans and those who loved him, it had to be equally devastating for sexual assault survivors – but for wholly different reasons. Seeing the reverence and respect with which Bryant was remembered, with little if any recognition that he was once involved in a rape case, is a reminder that survivors' pain is too often ignored, their experience almost always dismissed.
All of this – the good and the bad, the public face and the private darkness – is part of who Kobe Bryant was. To ignore that, or shout down those who won’t, puts Bryant in a neat little box where he doesn’t fit. Cannot fit."
 

Preacher

Member
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Jun 9, 2006
2,009
Henrico, VA
There was an article posted earlier in the tread about the legacy of Kobe's rape trial, and the money quote is below:

"One positive, if there is such a thing, to come out of the Bryant case was the improved rape shield laws in Colorado. Rape shield laws are supposed to protect the victim’s identity in cases and limit the ability for her past sexual activity to be brought into evidence. According to Karen Steinhauser, a Family Law and Criminal Defense attorney in Colorado, at the time of the Bryant hearing, rape shield laws didn’t apply to preliminary hearings in the state, which is why Mackey could push the envelope so far. Now they do. "

Basically, what we think of "rape shield" laws was very different in 2003-2004. It's been a long, long time since I did any sort of criminal work, so just thought I'd throw this out there. Here is the link: https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/
That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing. The law has certainly evolved significantly since 2003-2004, mostly for the good. It's unfortunate that it takes these types of cases to get some meaningful reform.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
7,599
Appreciate you @Mooch and @BaseballJones for sharing the stories. I cannot fathom what it must be like to go through something like that.

The personal stories like yours, TSC, and LuckSox have made me look back on my own posts & thank you for the opportunity to do so.
What's really hard is what to do. Daughter has thought about "going public". She's thought about pressing charges. I am ALL IN on whatever she decides to do. But we have talked about how if she "goes public" or presses charges, she's in for a world of pain, a terrible backlash from other people (friends of this kid for example) and lawyers and such. And...is she ready for all that? She loses control of the narrative. Her character will get attacked. It will be brutal.

I very much want justice. Very much. But I care more about my daughter than I care about justice. I come from a Sicilian family and I'd really really like to handle this old school. If you get my meaning.

But Kobe's death has just brought all this rushing right back to the forefront of my mind. Of course I feel awful for his family. I cannot imagine what they're going through. Losing him and especially his daughter. Unfathomable. Nothing but total sympathy for them. But the Kobe rape case is a glaring example of why it's so difficult for my daughter to seek and get justice. Which makes this so complicated for me. Like I said...I'm not even sure I should mention this part of his life to her.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
11,113
What's really hard is what to do. Daughter has thought about "going public". She's thought about pressing charges. I am ALL IN on whatever she decides to do. But we have talked about how if she "goes public" or presses charges, she's in for a world of pain, a terrible backlash from other people (friends of this kid for example) and lawyers and such. And...is she ready for all that? She loses control of the narrative. Her character will get attacked. It will be brutal.

I very much want justice. Very much. But I care more about my daughter than I care about justice. I come from a Sicilian family and I'd really really like to handle this old school. If you get my meaning.

But Kobe's death has just brought all this rushing right back to the forefront of my mind. Of course I feel awful for his family. I cannot imagine what they're going through. Losing him and especially his daughter. Unfathomable. Nothing but total sympathy for them. But the Kobe rape case is a glaring example of why it's so difficult for my daughter to seek and get justice. Which makes this so complicated for me. Like I said...I'm not even sure I should mention this part of his life to her.
Unless she lives under a rock, she's going to find out about Kobe's past in the next few days. If you want to tell her, you should soon or she's going to hear it from someone else.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
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Sep 27, 2016
11,049
The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.

I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice

Just to echo, I found this an excellent and thought-provoking rundown of the difficulties and how we all think about celebrity and legacy. Thanks for posting it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Dec 24, 2002
31,763
Redemption is a nice thing and people love the narrative, especially in a place like Los Angeles where tales of it have made people vast fortunes.

Unfortunately, its a convenient way for those who are talented, wealthy, famous and connected enough to "move on" while giving their supporters cover.

More to the point, victims redemption arcs, if they even exist, are far more difficult and messy. If you consider that factor, forgiving Bryant for being young and less mature involves quite a few mental gymnastics.

Imo, had Kobe Bryant been a normal NBA rotation guy or a bench player, he may have ended up serving time. Its pretty safe to say that his celebrity and backing gave him a huge legal advantage versus most other people. It also allowed him to rebuild his image. I suspect his victim may have had a much harder road.